Gay people will always need to come out

[onthemoon]

Looking Gay: It appears this is a series targeted at the gay population. The pink dollar at work.

Unlike Modern Family, I don't think that mainstream TV viewers will watch it.

[Jingthing]

Yeah sure we're all hopefully sexual beings but that boy's Mama in the video already knew her son was a sexual being. The news was he was a sexual being towards his same sex.

And she had no problem with it. Neither did mine. Nor did any of my friends.

It turned out the whole discrimination thingy was a bubble in my own head. Like it was with this boy.

Why do you want to keep it a reality? Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy when you preach this?

Dude I'm talking globally. Try coming out in Nigeria today. Things are getting worse for gays now in large parts of the world. I'm happy your Mom was OK with it but yes I've known gays tossed on the streets by their monstrous parents when the gayness was discovered. Please don't insult me with your imaginary projections of what I want. I believe in facing reality. For Jews that means there will always be antisemitism in the world and for gays there will always be homophobia in the world and issues over coming out or not coming out.

Do I want homophobia antisemitism racism sexism etc. wiped off the face of the earth? DUH! But again welcome to the real world.

Again what cloud cuckoo land bubble does one have live in to think Fundy Christianity and Islam are going away ... as both are major contributors to homophobia.

Other religions as well of course inspire homophobia as in India.

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Yes, I want homophobia and antisemitism (even though the roots of the discriminations are different) wiped off the face of the earth, along with discriminating against left-handed or red-haired people. Oops, the latter two have already been achieved.

I am sorry to hear that you have given up on the first two issues. I have not.

I don't want your pity.

Those are different levels of things. Think about it. Have the left handed or red headed ever been scapegoated by totalitarian regimes or condemned by religious leaders?

In my opinion you should give up on thinking homophobia and antisemitism will ever be eliminated entirely.

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Edited January 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[sustento]

I don't want your pity.

Those are different levels of things. Think about it. Have the left handed or red headed ever been scapegoated by totalitarian regimes or condemned by religious leaders?

In my opinion you should give up on thinking homophobia and antisemitism will ever be eliminated entirely.

If homophobia and antisemitism were ever eliminated entirely there'd be no place left to hide for all the professional victims. Can't have that! They'd have nothing left to occupy their time!

[Jingthing]

Whatever you are implying with that provocative statement nobody alive today will know a world like that anyway. They may know a limited social circle like that.

I am talking from a global and historical perspective.

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Edited January 26, 2014 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Let's cool down, shall we?

[ToddWeston]

I don't want your pity.

Those are different levels of things. Think about it. Have the left handed or red headed ever been scapegoated by totalitarian regimes or condemned by religious leaders?

In my opinion you should give up on thinking homophobia and antisemitism will ever be eliminated entirely.

If homophobia and antisemitism were ever eliminated entirely there'd be no place left to hide for all the professional victims. Can't have that! They'd have nothing left to occupy their time!

Speaking to homophobia as I'm a WASP, I've never felt and discrimination in my home country, birth country or here in Thailand.

I suppose I'm rather lucky being the age that I am and having lived in progressive countries that it never had any impact on my life whatsoever, the professional complainers must hate happy stories.

[Jingthing]

Happy to hear of your life experience. In my experience people who harp on about "professional complainers" are usually right wingers who deny the existence of homophobia, antisemitism, racism, sexism, etc. even in today's world. They are objectively wrong in that. If you've managed to have never observed such things in your own life consider you have led an unusually sheltered life but actually I wouldn't believe it.

My experience is this as a gay Jew who can sometimes pass as not gay or not a Jew. Among gays virulent antisemitic remarks when they don't know a Jew is present and among straights virulent anti-gay remarks when they don't know a gay person is present.

Noticing reality doesn't make one a professional victim. It makes one understand the limitations of liberal social goals. We can make progress but complete elimination of irrational human hate is not in the cards.

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Edited January 26, 2014 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

Happy to hear of your life experience. In my experience people who harp on about "professional complainers" are usually right wingers who deny the existence of homophobia, antisemitism, racism, sexism, etc. even in today's world. They are objectively wrong in that. If you've managed to have never observed such things in your own life consider you have led an unusually sheltered life but actually I wouldn't believe it.

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I am a Tory/Conservative/ Right wing, hell I'm even a Mason. I don't deny it's exists and it's clearly a major issue around the globe. I'm saying it's has little or no impact on my life, sure if I chose to hug and kiss my hubby in my city I'm sure I get looks, perhaps even worse but I don't do that. My sexuality doesn't define me nor do I broadcast it, perhaps if I did then I'd experience the hate.

Having been in a mixed relationship for a very long time, that discrimination I can spot a mile away, in 2014 it's nothing like it was years ago. When I see how I'm treated by youth I'm hopeful it will become less and less for future generations.

[Jingthing]

I am hopeful too for many countries but for many other countries things are going backwards.

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[Jingthing]

Quote from American football player Wade Davis from HBO documentary The Out List --

"If a major league player came out it really changes the conversation of what it means to be a masculine man. If we wait until every athlete says I'm fine with someone being gay the world will end ... you know so I think we have to push the boundaries now"

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Edited January 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Happy to hear of your life experience. In my experience people who harp on about "professional complainers" are usually right wingers who deny the existence of homophobia, antisemitism, racism, sexism, etc. even in today's world. They are objectively wrong in that. If you've managed to have never observed such things in your own life consider you have led an unusually sheltered life but actually I wouldn't believe it.

My experience is this as a gay Jew who can sometimes pass as not gay or not a Jew. Among gays virulent antisemitic remarks when they don't know a Jew is present and among straights virulent anti-gay remarks when they don't know a gay person is present.

Noticing reality doesn't make one a professional victim. It makes one understand the limitations of liberal social goals. We can make progress but complete elimination of irrational human hate is not in the cards.

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I'm not a Jew so I can't comment on that.

But I am gay, and often people don't know that. The last time I remember having heard something anti-gay to an extent that I felt offended is decades ago.

Ok, I have lived in Europe and Thailand, not in some African countries. But I live in my today's world and I don't consider myself unusually sheltered in any way.

[Jingthing]

This is hilarious! We get virulent anti-gay trolls here on this "gay" forum regularly and also of course on the general. forum. Do you think those people accept you? Did robots write those posts? Tip of the iceberg. Face reality. If you're gay, there will ALWAYS be MANY people that irrationally hate your guts just for being gay so ipso facto COMING OUT is always going to an issue (to do so or not in different environments). Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Of course, if you're for example black, you're black, there is no coming out except to blind people, and even many of them are racist.

But if you're gay and not flamboyant (the majority of gay people of course) then in many cases people will ASSUME you are not gay, because the vast majority of people except in gay ghettos will ALWAYS be not gay. So then you've got a choice about coming out.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

This is hilarious! We get virulent anti-gay trolls here on this "gay" forum regularly and also of course on the general. forum. Do you think those people accept you? Did robots write those posts? Tip of the iceberg. Face reality. If you're gay, there will ALWAYS be MANY people that irrationally hate your guts just for being gay so ipso facto COMING OUT is always going to an issue (to do so or not in different environments). Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Of course, if you're for example black, you're black, there is no coming out except to blind people, and even many of them are racist.

But if you're gay and not flamboyant (the majority of gay people of course) then in many cases people will ASSUME you are not gay, because the vast majority of people except in gay ghettos will ALWAYS be not gay. So then you've got a choice about coming out.

If I were to live my life and worry about who doesn't like me then that's not living life.

[Jingthing]

If I were to live my life and worry about who doesn't like me then that's not living life.

Tell that to gay Nigerians. They generally can't come out. You get that, right? There will always be people who can't come out. The point isn't about you or some elite's social situation. It's about the concept of coming out in a historical and global perspective. It's never going away entirely. It's not realistic to expect it ever will. A civil rights movement can have goals without being irrationally idealistic.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

I won't apologise, it is about me and how I feel about people in my circle or country coming out, it's a personal choice.

Of course I get that Nigerians cannot come out and whilst I sympathise with gays in country's with less freedom, it is another topic whether I care enough about the cause and if my energy and donation dollars are better spent elsewhere on global issues that impact society as a whole.

[Jingthing]

Not asking for any apologies. The topic though is clearly about a much wider scope than any one person's personal experiences.

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[ToddWeston]

I see, perhaps you could be clear in your next topic title then so there isnt the need for me to waste my time with personal experiences. I don't know any Nigerians, Ugandans, Russians or Americans & what happens in those countries is of interest however it really has little or no impact on my life.

If I ever hear the statement "Gay people will always need to come out" as the title reads, I'll tell them it depends on your location and it's so much more than a personal choice & experience.

[Jingthing]

Sure thing mate.

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[CharlieH]

Please excuse my ignorance, I am not gay, but feel I would like to understand more.

Could I ask why? Why does a gay person need to "come out", isnt that just announcing that you are gay ? Why would you need to do that, you dont announce you are a man, as everyone can see that, similiarly, if you are gay , thats a personal thing, why would you feel the need to broadcast it ? Why does it require anyone to do that ? If thats your choice then thats fine, why should it be or require a statement or declaration ?

Just trying to understand.

[Jingthing]

Please excuse my ignorance, I am not gay, but feel I would like to understand more.

Could I ask why? Why does a gay person need to "come out", isnt that just announcing that you are gay ? Why would you need to do that, you dont announce you are a man, as everyone can see that, similiarly, if you are gay , thats a personal thing, why would you feel the need to broadcast it ? Why does it require anyone to do that ? If thats your choice then thats fine, why should it be or require a statement or declaration ?

Just trying to understand.

Start here, and if you more specific questions after getting some basic background, then ask:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_out

Also, I think you totally misunderstand what this thread is about. It is not about any REQUIREMENT that gay people come out. It is about the fact that coming out will always be an ISSUE for gay people. Think about this, OK? You're a gay boy and your Mom doesn't know you're gay. You love your Mom, she loves you, what do you do? Do you tell her you're gay and maybe make her cry, and if so, WHEN? Don't you think your MOM deserves to know who you are? Telling her is COMING OUT. You don't need to but if you don't, that has consequences too, living a secret life. That's one example. These issues come up in the lives of gay people frequently with different levels of their relationships. No civil rights legislation anywhere will ever make these questions ever entirely go away.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Jingthing

[CharlieH]

Thanks for the link, I just dont get it, why is there a need to announce it? You dont announce for example that your left handed, you like eating prawns, your eyes are green. Why the need to "come out" .

If thats your choice, thats who you are, why does it need a declaration ?

Edited January 31, 2014 by CharlieH

[Jingthing]

I already explained it is not a need. It's an issue when people don't know who you are, and yes sexual orientation is of more consequences than eye color, and people can ALREADY see your bloody eye color! People aren't discriminated against for their eye color. People are being murdered in today's world for being gay. If you live in places like that, your "need" is NOT to come out. But not coming out still means coming out remains an issue. You might want the people close to you to know this important part of your life but you would be rationally AFRAID to tell them. In more advanced countries where gay people are seeking equal civil rights, coming out can be a POLITICAL act promoting legal equality. Like when Ellen Degeneres came out it really hurt her career for some time, but she recovered from that, and her high profile and brave act (at that time) is seen as advancing acceptance of gay people in the USA.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Jingthing

[CharlieH]

An issue when people dont know who you are ? Why should it matter to them ? Its your choice not theres.

[Jingthing]

An issue when people dont know who you are ? Why should it matter to them ? Its your choice not theres.

This is starting to annoy me and I am starting to doubt your sincerity.

Your MOTHER wouldn't want to know that you love the same sex not the opposite sex?

Please!

[CharlieH]

Well I am sorry if its annoying you, and feel sorry that you take that stance when someone wants to merely understand and be made more aware.

You certainly are an admirable advocate.

[CharlieH]

An issue when people dont know who you are ? Why should it matter to them ? Its your choice not theres.

This is starting to annoy me and I am starting to doubt your sincerity.

Your MOTHER wouldn't want to know that you love the same sex not the opposite sex?

Please!

If I had told my mother, her reaction would have been, if thats how you feel, thats what brings you happiness , who am I to judge.

Exactly what my response would be to my son!

I will not enquire further or "annoy" you

[Jingthing]

Well I am sorry if its annoying you, and feel sorry that you take that stance when someone wants to merely understand and be made more aware.

You certainly are an admirable advocate.

My patience is limited.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

An issue when people dont know who you are ? Why should it matter to them ? Its your choice not theres.

This is starting to annoy me and I am starting to doubt your sincerity.

Your MOTHER wouldn't want to know that you love the same sex not the opposite sex?

Please!

If I had told my mother, her reaction would have been, if thats how you feel, thats what brings you happiness , who am I to judge.

Exactly what my response would be to my son!

I will not enquire further or "annoy" you

Some mothers kick their gay kids out of the house. Those kids are better off staying in the closet at least until they're independent. It's an emotional pain to do so but usually preferable. So you see the coming out thing is always as ISSUE if you choose to come out, or not. Gay people need to FEEL their environment and decide if it is safe enough for them to do so. Some gay people know it isn't very safe and come out anyway for political civil rights movement reasons, especially celebrities. With parents, believe it or not, many gay kids even with loving parents just aren't SURE whether their parents will still love them after they come out UNTIL they come out. So for many, yes, this is still a big deal, and there is no reason to think the BIG DEAL part of it will go away for many gay people (globally) in future.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Jingthing

[CharlieH]

My point was, all be it badly made, it shouldnt matter, it shouldnt be a big deal, not in 2014.

But I've learned ny lesson not to even ask in this forum, you are a victim of your own making with your attitude.

[ToddWeston]

Thanks for the link, I just dont get it, why is there a need to announce it? You dont announce for example that your left handed, you like eating prawns, your eyes are green. Why the need to "come out" .

If thats your choice, thats who you are, why does it need a declaration ?

There is no need to make a declaration as long as you're happy who gives a toss what others think. It's a choice, I've never broadcast my sexuality outside of this sub forum or in my professional life.

In my opinion some gays have a chip on their shoulder and are attention seekers who want to play the miniority card and label the rest us in or out of the closet, being out is somehow better in their minds, as I said earlier my sexuality doesn't define me.

BTW nice to have new people asking questions and posting.

i