Election Special – How did we end up here? From Thaksin to today

[kingstonkid]

This is a very truthful article.

Where does Thailand go from here????

That seems to be the big question.

I think most here will agree that Thailand must be Shinawatra free.

The family must remove itself from politics and the political arena.

The UDD must take a look at what the PTP promised, what was delivered and whether or not it helped people.

The 300 Baht law cost jobs, the Rice pledge scheme created nothing but heart ache. The Flood help was non existent and the new plan only catered to those that would make money.

The DEMS on the other hand except for bitching and moaning have provided o insight into what they would do to make it better so we must assume that the people that say it is only there for those that have money are correct.

The way forward is for ALL parties even the small Ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjSpO2B6G4s

Edited February 2, 2014 by kingstonkid

[pipkins]

This mess has started long before Thaksin even was born.

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010. They are in no danger of reading up on any events that preceeded Thaksin. Blanket top down elite rule and corruption way in excess of what it is today.. There was no internet back then to speak of and no news. Any investigative journalism ended in the death of the Journalist, activists or lawyers, along with many ordinary folk who dared complain.

Thaksin tried to do away with the loan sharking. In particulal the street stalls and markets of Bangkok which are mostly army controlled ... if you know anything about BKK streets, you know this. He also set about the custom of loan sharks lending money to famers with the collateral being their daughters who had to work bars etc. to repay the loans.

Again, not many expats know anything at all about it. It was so prevalent it even had a thai name Tok Khiew, - green harvest. http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/child.html

Like it or not, too many expats here are here for the wrong reason and side with the people who do least about this problem. That Thaksin started closing bars earlier and zoning and taking out the chrome poles and barring nudity. He fell foul of many and they never forgave him.

Health care - non existant before thaksin

loans for anybody to improve their lives - were only from the loan sharks (Elites or Phu Yai)

Airport - no chance of opening and they even levelled false charges against him saying the runway was breaking up. Few cracks that later were reported on my airline industry as normal settlement that occured everywhere.

Suthep. 35 years an MP, total devotion to his own industry and that of his henchmen - read palm oil scandal,, the Phuket land scandal and organising coups to keep his elite backers in parliament.

Recently he is grooming his son, Akanant to follow in his footsteps and we see his foul face on every PDRC event.

They have no interest in the development of the country outside of Bangkok.

[noitom]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

The protests since 2005 have mainly been about or heavily involved Thaksin. It would be a huge step towards the end if Thaksin and his family stepped away from politics.

Unfortunately that would make the circus more clownish. The elephant would be removed from the room, but that would give way to more clowns and thieves.

[noitom]

The writing style was more organized and readable than the typical Nation rambling and tripe.

[ginjag]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

The protests since 2005 have mainly been about or heavily involved Thaksin. It would be a huge step towards the end if Thaksin and his family stepped away from politics.

Unfortunately that would make the circus more clownish. The elephant would be removed from the room, but that would give way to more clowns and thieves.

Leave the elephant in the room then and no more problems ??? everything is lovely in the garden,( send in the clowns, song comes to mind)

[Felt 35]

Huh....a long article for a short answer. Thaksin had never come to the power in Thailand if it not was for a overly greedy and corrupt system which let him buy go free from the constitutional court in 2000.

[Why ask]

I tried... I really tried Not to respond to this but it begs swatting at...once again the simplistic view of reform.. the problem is not going to disappear even if the Shins were to step completely out of politics ( which will not happen me thinks).....Thaksin did not invent corruption here.... he was enabled by a system that was basking in it for decades..... this endless demonizing of a single figure in order to keep the hot button burning is the most ridiculous premise to argue... corruption and abuse of power and position ...It is something that is endemic here and has been for a generation...(at least)...it is prevalent in most every walk of life here.. every agency public and private... it just is.. so it cannot be addressed by attacking the most recent or most popular target of the moment but perhaps rather by cognitive thought, education... and personal integrity and a willingness from all the people to reform...that is a huge undertaking... to un-learn something that has been custom forever...?...COME ON... will take at least one generation... these quick fix addicts are either fooling themselves or serving another unveiled agenda waiting in the wings to fill the void should it occur...how in the wide world of sports can we get every corrupt player to reform...? it will not happen in a brief period of time ...it has to start somewhere but to limit the acknowledgement of the cancer by a view of a single tumor is to stick your head even deeper in the sand,,,and ignore the other million festering cells... in the hope that if you can't see THAT tumor you don't have the cancer... yet when you pull your head out of the pit... lo and behold.. there is another tumor ...different face...same trough...progress, innovation, and technology have enabled the masses of people so often limited by lack of status, money, name and other social graces afforded the old money... to participate... but no more.. everybody has a shot now... the field may be becoming a bit more level.. if the writer of this piece would look at all the other times and places in history and the relevance of those historically, he/she might might gain some insight and perspective...and the clarity to know that the very very narrow view only fuels a useless fire.... take the blinders off....and remember that whomever the poster boy for corruption is at the moment won't be down the road...it will be someone else...but if the focus stays only on excising the single tumor,, there will be no success in eradicating the entire disease... polarization through narrow focus targets is the ammunition of those whose only goal is to create and enlarge the divide... there has to be the inclusion of the entire picture and there has to be participation by every person no matter what the color or side they start on...and there has to be an agreement that the end result is more than just a shift in power bases... you CANNOT RELY ON THE WORD OF A SINGLE MAN NOT WHEN YOU ARE DECIDING FOR THE MASSES... gonna be a long time coming when most people cannot see past the end of their own nose over the rim of the noodle bowl...

You condone continuation of previous error?

Exactly what the protestors want is change from the corruption they are now aware of, despite not being powerful enough to change it; or so it was believed.

Corruption does not have to be an ongoing thing, even if it takes a long time to change. A change does have to be started, if there is illness: a change believing in honesty, and that is the moral of the PDRC movement. Cancer can be cut out, and the body given time to heal. If there were no new doctors, one would be left to rot, without hope of new developments in medicines. The people of PDRC are aware of the illness, and therefore want to change something. That is positive, not passive to the illness.

Your glass is half..?

-m.

[smutcakes]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

She didn't resign, and the protesters didn't call for an immediate election.

She was naive if she thought that an election would diffuse the situation. How was it supposed to diffuse the situation when the protesters were demanding that she (and Thaksin) get out of politics?

Umm because traditionally the way to get rid of someone in Politics is to vote them out! An election is the recognized way of doing this by 99% of the Thailand and Global population.I thought Suthep was calling for that at the point she resigned, and he subsequently shifted the goal posts anyway, We still dont really even have details of what Suthep wants, this is because he has no idea himself, other than him and his people should be in power.

[Why ask]

This mess has started long before Thaksin even was born.

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010.

So now you resort to saying current protestors are uneducated, or have no knowledge of history. You're one in a million, really.

[whybother]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

She didn't resign, and the protesters didn't call for an immediate election.

She was naive if she thought that an election would diffuse the situation. How was it supposed to diffuse the situation when the protesters were demanding that she (and Thaksin) get out of politics?

Umm because traditionally the way to get rid of someone in Politics is to vote them out! An election is the recognized way of doing this by 99% of the Thailand and Global population.I thought Suthep was calling for that at the point she resigned, and he subsequently shifted the goal posts anyway, We still dont really even have details of what Suthep wants, this is because he has no idea himself, other than him and his people should be in power.

Suthep was calling for her resignation. She didn't resign. The protesters want her and her brother out of politics. Dissolving parliament doesn't do anything for those demands. So the protests continued. The election doesn't solve the issues that the protesters are protesting about, and she is naive if she thought it would.

[Scamper]

Indeed, Thailand had gone through a period of relative calm since the 2011 election, and even amidst all the malfeasances of this administration, that have since accumulated into a critical mass, Thaksin's supreme blunder was the " revised " amnesty bill that was first released to the public on October 13. At that point, Thaksin had already set in motion the demise of his political machine. It was a completely gratuitous error, and it caused Pheu Thai's house of cards to fall. As they continue to fall. Thaksin will never be able to retain the power he once held - even since his exile. His selfishness and greed were his downfall. It is incredible to think, though it is true - that the turmoil this country has gone through for years and years was due to the aspirations of one man - Thaksin. This year his political machine comes to an end.

[smutcakes]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

She didn't resign, and the protesters didn't call for an immediate election.

She was naive if she thought that an election would diffuse the situation. How was it supposed to diffuse the situation when the protesters were demanding that she (and Thaksin) get out of politics?

Umm because traditionally the way to get rid of someone in Politics is to vote them out! An election is the recognized way of doing this by 99% of the Thailand and Global population.I thought Suthep was calling for that at the point she resigned, and he subsequently shifted the goal posts anyway, We still dont really even have details of what Suthep wants, this is because he has no idea himself, other than him and his people should be in power.

Suthep was calling for her resignation. She didn't resign. The protesters want her and her brother out of politics. Dissolving parliament doesn't do anything for those demands. So the protests continued. The election doesn't solve the issues that the protesters are protesting about, and she is naive if she thought it would.

Well they should all be certified then! How in the world can a minority of people simply decide that two people have to disapear from politics. It is simply insane. How can a country ever have peace when people believe the way to get rid of someone is to protest and cause civil unrest because a minority of people don't like them!. What happens if they did get rid of them, and were replaced by someone else, and a small minority followed the same example? (and they would) It would go on ad nauseam

[whybother]

Well they should all be certified then! How in the world can a minority of people simply decide that two people have to disapear from politics. It is simply insane. How can a country ever have peace when people believe the way to get rid of someone is to protest and cause civil unrest because a minority of people don't like them!. What happens if they did get rid of them, and were replaced by someone else, and a small minority followed the same example? (and they would) It would go on ad nauseam

When people are so divisive, sometimes it is better that they are not involved. It is much better for the country as a whole.

[Alwyn]

If these Thai politicians were smart, they'd just come here and read all of the experts words of wisdom and shape their country around them because everytbody here seems to know how to run a country!

[ginjag]

If these Thai politicians were smart, they'd just come here and read all of the experts words of wisdom and shape their country around them because everytbody here seems to know how to run a country!

Because we all believe that PM and PTP are the bees knees.

Most posters are saying that they can do a better job than PTP. Who the hell couldn't. ??

[Alwyn]

If these Thai politicians were smart, they'd just come here and read all of the experts words of wisdom and shape their country around them because everytbody here seems to know how to run a country!

Because we all believe that PM and PTP are the bees knees.

Most posters are saying that they can do a better job than PTP. Who the hell couldn't. ??

Any other political party, according to the VOTERS, I have to say I was impressed by your post, all those cutesy little emoticons, kind of like the ones the 12 year old kids use, who could not be impressed by that!

[Jip99]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

I agree, but there is no doubt that corruption became worse under Thaksin and it is farcical to have him based in Dubai pulling the strings of his puppet sister (or any other family member is allocated the PM title).

I think reforms are essential and a period in Thai politics with Shinawatra control must be a good thing.

A year or so of 'reforming', Thaksin comes back to see out his jail term and everyone starts with a clean sheet. Then take it to the polls.

[whybother]

From Thaksin to today?

This dilemma has not started with Thaksin and it will not end with him.

I agree, but there is no doubt that corruption became worse under Thaksin and it is farcical to have him based in Dubai pulling the strings of his puppet sister (or any other family member is allocated the PM title).

I think reforms are essential and a period in Thai politics with Shinawatra control must be a good thing.

A year or so of 'reforming', Thaksin comes back to see out his jail term and everyone starts with a clean sheet. Then take it to the polls.

I assume you meant to say "without Shinawatra control".

[Blue88]

This didn’t start with Thaksin, and it certainly won’t end with Yingluck and Suthep, but they seem determined to take it to the very brink. What we have here is the systemic death of political morality in Thailand. To paraphrase Iain Banks ‘’Finding an honest politician today is like finding a piece of corn in your turd, it’s managed to maintain some integrity, but it’s still embedded in s**t”.

Show me a ballot paper in the 21^st century and I’ll show you an alphabetic list of wannabee billionaires. Red, Yellow or Mauve with Pink stripes, do people really believe that the politician will put the needs of the electorate and the country before personal gain? There will always be exceptions, and perhaps back in 2001 Thaksin was full of good intentions, but power changes people and in the end, he squeezed the Golden Goose too hard. Would Suthep or the current crop of Democrats be any better? Personally, I very much doubt it. Thailand probably needs a new political brush, a Mandela figure who can bury the political hatchet and move Thailand forward for the betterment of all. The likelihood of that happening? So far, I haven’t seen many contenders.

I have no idea what the solution will be, or even if a solution exists at all, but the people of Thailand deserve far better than what they have today. The hopes, security and development of 65 million people have been pissed into the wind by the hubris and greed of a fortunate few.

[jacksam]

This reply could be posted to most political discussions. I don't understand how all the farang can say this and that about the politics of Thailand. They talk about the farmers in the north and this and that. They do this from their comfortable western countries background and all the benefits it has afforded them. My Thai friends are astounded that in Australia we get help from government for being unemployed, sick , not able to work etc. The government pays us to have kids. They enforce superannuation etc. First rate health scheme. List goes on

. I do not comment on what Thais should be doing or point out their problems and mistakes. As the saying goes "walk a mile in their shoes" then comment. Love the stupid comments about stupid farmers etc made by some such westerners with mainly free education and trouble free run in life. Exceptions to the rule excluded. I just live here and enjoy it and don't complain or point out all the silly things. I like the saying "if you don't like it F&&k off"

[billd766]

Yep. It all boils down to the Amnesty Bill and she still insists, that it is a good idea.

Nope it all boils down to the fact that she heads an elected government which had a policy. It may not have been a good one or a wise one but it was still a policy. That policy was tested in parliament and did not survive that test. It is called democracy and that's how it works.

Why is this simple stuff so hard for some people?

The only reason that the amnesty bill didn't survive was because of the protests (although it is actually still on the table and can be passed by a vote in parliament ... if there is a parliament in about 120 days now).

And here am I thinking that the media were reporting correctly that the senate refused to pass it. You clearly have better information?

The bill was a stupid thing to do, at least with that scope, and the public uproar was the primary reason the senate dropped it. Once again, that's called democracy and it worked. PT have already said it will not be re-presented.

And if PT was planning to, or if you thought they might, then you vote against them. If they are returned to power, they do - whether you like it or not - have a mandate to proceed with their platform.

The media did report correctly that the senate refused to pass the bill. It wed to government BUT it can be rammed through WITHOUT another vote in parliament after 180 days even though Yingluck "promised" (for what that is worth) that it will not happen.

The only way for the bill to die is for the PTP "government" to resign en-masse and that is one reason why they are fighting to retain control.

The other reason is they have to borrow the 2.2 Tr baht to cover up all the holes in their financial policies. That 2.2 Tr baht will be off the books with NO transparency or accountability.

The very same 2.2 Tr baht that will balloon to over 6 Tr baht during its 50 year loan perion and that my 9 year old son will have to pay his share through taxation.

Do you remember America in 1776 and NO taxation without representation?

[chainarong]

Bit late but never the less , how did we end up here, ask Thaskin

[Why ask]

I believe we should all hope there is little fighting or death today, when people of different opinions wish to express their own.

After all, we don't kill each other, as farangs reading. We take the piss out of each others ideas, however, and that is the DEMOCRACY of this site (when keeping within the accepted rules of the country we are guests in).

Let's raise a glass to little anger, and physical fighting no more. Let us all join in one, as our lucky upbringings have delivered to us, and share in love and prosperity for the people.... no matter colour, creed, religion, or naieve beliefs. Let us pray everybody remains safe, and no more bloodshed arises.

-m.

[DirtFarmer]

I tried... I really tried Not to respond to this but it begs swatting at...once again the simplistic view of reform.. the problem is not going to disappear even if the Shins were to step completely out of politics ( which will not happen me thinks).....Thaksin did not invent corruption here.... he was enabled by a system that was basking in it for decades..... this endless demonizing of a single figure in order to keep the hot button burning is the most ridiculous premise to argue... corruption and abuse of power and position ...It is something that is endemic here and has been for a generation...(at least)...it is prevalent in most every walk of life here.. every agency public and private... it just is.. so it cannot be addressed by attacking the most recent or most popular target of the moment but perhaps rather by cognitive thought, education... and personal integrity and a willingness from all the people to reform...that is a huge undertaking... to un-learn something that has been custom forever...?...COME ON... will take at least one generation... these quick fix addicts are either fooling themselves or serving another unveiled agenda waiting in the wings to fill the void should it occur...how in the wide world of sports can we get every corrupt player to reform...? it will not happen in a brief period of time ...it has to start somewhere but to limit the acknowledgement of the cancer by a view of a single tumor is to stick your head even deeper in the sand,,,and ignore the other million festering cells... in the hope that if you can't see THAT tumor you don't have the cancer... yet when you pull your head out of the pit... lo and behold.. there is another tumor ...different face...same trough...progress, innovation, and technology have enabled the masses of people so often limited by lack of status, money, name and other social graces afforded the old money... to participate... but no more.. everybody has a shot now... the field may be becoming a bit more level.. if the writer of this piece would look at all the other times and places in history and the relevance of those historically, he/she might might gain some insight and perspective...and the clarity to know that the very very narrow view only fuels a useless fire.... take the blinders off....and remember that whomever the poster boy for corruption is at the moment won't be down the road...it will be someone else...but if the focus stays only on excising the single tumor,, there will be no success in eradicating the entire disease... polarization through narrow focus targets is the ammunition of those whose only goal is to create and enlarge the divide... there has to be the inclusion of the entire picture and there has to be participation by every person no matter what the color or side they start on...and there has to be an agreement that the end result is more than just a shift in power bases... you CANNOT RELY ON THE WORD OF A SINGLE MAN NOT WHEN YOU ARE DECIDING FOR THE MASSES... gonna be a long time coming when most people cannot see past the end of their own nose over the rim of the noodle bowl...

You condone continuation of previous error?

Exactly what the protestors want is change from the corruption they are now aware of, despite not being powerful enough to change it; or so it was believed.

Corruption does not have to be an ongoing thing, even if it takes a long time to change. A change does have to be started, if there is illness: a change believing in honesty, and that is the moral of the PDRC movement. Cancer can be cut out, and the body given time to heal. If there were no new doctors, one would be left to rot, without hope of new developments in medicines. The people of PDRC are aware of the illness, and therefore want to change something. That is positive, not passive to the illness.

Your glass is half..?

-m.

" That is positive, not passive to the illness."

Of course not but a completely disingenuous person such as Suthep is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, for this to be the beacon in the wilderness is letting the fox into the henhouse.. none of these thugs should be leading a necessary reform ...I do believe there are un-corrupted ..and very wise people out there... my point was to extoll the virtues of reform if you yourself. a) are 180 degrees the opposite of what you claim to be and you then find the "hot" button and throttle it... and the sheep are willing to follow it becomes a joke and will come back to bite you in the face...I know that and I also know that people are and were sick of corruption long before the PDRC came to be.. but the flaccid platform of a deeply corrupt individual and team.. and people following them blindly.. unaware of the hidden agenda is a sad caveat where was all this reform when they were in Power before... why indeed did the DEMS not start a real reform in the streets when they were in power...? The millions they have spent being divisive now in a power play makes it far too apparent that the idea of reform is a great billboard... but sincerely makes me question whether or not that is the real motive... having been here since '93 I am not unfamiliar with the tactics of Suthep and his machinations in broad daylight as well as in back rooms... (before Thaksin) contributing to all manner of corruption...and maybe some good ( for those close to him) but what really scares me is if you give the scalpel to someone who is not a surgeon to do the surgery because that increases the risk of sudden death... I have the utmost faith that in time it will come around to a more moral, transparent, all inclusive society because inherently this country wants to grow and be better and that is a good thing... it's just these circus performers with their clowns to the left and jokers to the right..that get in the way...I love Thailand... I will die here... the cup is ... three quarters full...

Edited February 2, 2014 by DirtFarmer

[ginjag]

If these Thai politicians were smart, they'd just come here and read all of the experts words of wisdom and shape their country around them because everytbody here seems to know how to run a country!

Because we all believe that PM and PTP are the bees knees.

Most posters are saying that they can do a better job than PTP. Who the hell couldn't. ??

Any other political party, according to the VOTERS, I have to say I was impressed by your post, all those cutesy little emoticons, kind of like the ones the 12 year old kids use, who could not be impressed by that!

Those cutesy emotions are to the point, your attitude to the P.M. and PTP are a joke. in 3 years put down on paper what achievements ??? that is the reason for the smiley's. GET IT.

Your blindness to the mega corrupt party is more similar to a 12 year old.

You think the PM is enormously successful ---tell me why. and why you criticize someone that is pointing out fact.

Your post seems an angry backlash on my saying the PTP are a joke---sorry for the offence.

[bigbamboo]

How did we get here?

Well boys and girls, once upon a time in a land far away............

[Why ask]

I tried... I really tried Not to respond to this but it begs swatting at...once again the simplistic view of reform.. the problem is not going to disappear even if the Shins were to step completely out of politics ( which will not happen me thinks).....Thaksin did not invent corruption here.... he was enabled by a system that was basking in it for decades..... this endless demonizing of a single figure in order to keep the hot button burning is the most ridiculous premise to argue... corruption and abuse of power and position ...It is something that is endemic here and has been for a generation...(at least)...it is prevalent in most every walk of life here.. every agency public and private... it just is.. so it cannot be addressed by attacking the most recent or most popular target of the moment but perhaps rather by cognitive thought, education... and personal integrity and a willingness from all the people to reform...that is a huge undertaking... to un-learn something that has been custom forever...?...COME ON... will take at least one generation... these quick fix addicts are either fooling themselves or serving another unveiled agenda waiting in the wings to fill the void should it occur...how in the wide world of sports can we get every corrupt player to reform...? it will not happen in a brief period of time ...it has to start somewhere but to limit the acknowledgement of the cancer by a view of a single tumor is to stick your head even deeper in the sand,,,and ignore the other million festering cells... in the hope that if you can't see THAT tumor you don't have the cancer... yet when you pull your head out of the pit... lo and behold.. there is another tumor ...different face...same trough...progress, innovation, and technology have enabled the masses of people so often limited by lack of status, money, name and other social graces afforded the old money... to participate... but no more.. everybody has a shot now... the field may be becoming a bit more level.. if the writer of this piece would look at all the other times and places in history and the relevance of those historically, he/she might might gain some insight and perspective...and the clarity to know that the very very narrow view only fuels a useless fire.... take the blinders off....and remember that whomever the poster boy for corruption is at the moment won't be down the road...it will be someone else...but if the focus stays only on excising the single tumor,, there will be no success in eradicating the entire disease... polarization through narrow focus targets is the ammunition of those whose only goal is to create and enlarge the divide... there has to be the inclusion of the entire picture and there has to be participation by every person no matter what the color or side they start on...and there has to be an agreement that the end result is more than just a shift in power bases... you CANNOT RELY ON THE WORD OF A SINGLE MAN NOT WHEN YOU ARE DECIDING FOR THE MASSES... gonna be a long time coming when most people cannot see past the end of their own nose over the rim of the noodle bowl...

You condone continuation of previous error?

Exactly what the protestors want is change from the corruption they are now aware of, despite not being powerful enough to change it; or so it was believed.

Corruption does not have to be an ongoing thing, even if it takes a long time to change. A change does have to be started, if there is illness: a change believing in honesty, and that is the moral of the PDRC movement. Cancer can be cut out, and the body given time to heal. If there were no new doctors, one would be left to rot, without hope of new developments in medicines. The people of PDRC are aware of the illness, and therefore want to change something. That is positive, not passive to the illness.

Your glass is half..?

-m.

" That is positive, not passive to the illness."

Of course not but a completely disingenuous person such as Suthep is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, for this to be the beacon in the wilderness is letting the fox into the henhouse.. none of these thugs should be leading a necessary reform ...I do believe there are un-corrupted ..and very wise people out there... my point was to extoll the virtues of reform if you yourself. a) are 180 degrees the opposite of what you claim to be and you then find the "hot" button and throttle it... and the sheep are willing to follow it becomes a joke and will come back to bite you in the face...I know that and I also know that people are and were sick of corruption long before the PDRC came to be.. but the flaccid platform of a deeply corrupt individual and team.. and people following them blindly.. unaware of the hidden agenda is a sad caveat where was all this reform when they were in Power before... why indeed did the DEMS not start a real reform in the streets when they were in power...? The millions they have spent being divisive now in a power play makes it far too apparent that the idea of reform is a great billboard... but sincerely makes me question whether or not that is the real motive... having been here since '93 I am not unfamiliar with the tactics of Suthep and his machinations in broad daylight as well as in back rooms... (before Thaksin) contributing to all manner of corruption...and maybe some good ( for those close to him) but what really scares me is if you give the scalpel to someone who is not a surgeon to do the surgery because that increases the risk of sudden death... I have the utmost faith that in time it will come around to a more moral, transparent, all inclusive society because inherently this country wants to grow and be better and that is a good thing... it's just these circus performers with their clowns to the left and jokers to the right..that get in the way...I love Thailand... I will die here... the cup is ... three quarters full...

A very considered response.

It is unfortunate that third, fourth or even fifth forms of alliance are not permitted. Then again, we should look at the UK and USA as prime examples?... having conservatives, (Lib Dems in the middle), and labour, and republicans or democrats, respectively. What a fine example of alternatives Western cultures display, and act by.

Additionally, I also agree with your observation about giving the scalpel to the wrong surgeon. Collectiviism is diminishing, but only centrally. In contrast, the individualism developing is all for the wrong reasons..... hence corporations from the West raping Thailand's innocence for such a long time. :'(

Despite others observing that farang are hated and wanted out, we are aware that respecting, knowing, speaking and generally keeping one's nose out of business causes no issue. That rule applies in the West too!... and thus Thais are not as dumb as many people in this forum assume.

I am and have been in favour of the protests, yet rather concerned now about where it is going with Suthep. He's as idiotic as the government he is ousting.

Let's fill our own cups, in our own actions and kindness to such a country we shall die in.

-m.

[DocN]

Yes, fine- I agree with everyone, who says, things would be better if all Shinawatrss would just vanish into the air.

a) It's not gonna happen!

b ) What next?

As long as no one answers b ) ..other than using talking points like "We need reform" (how? what? how to achieve?).

Just throwing around buzz-words, will not do any good- with or without the Shins.

[bobmac10]

on a hindsight - her mistake was resigning and dissolving parliament, believing, that it would diffuse situation and that opposition will stick to their word. However, Democrats decided not to contest an election and thus pulling all their power behind suthep. She had a chance to use police and military to remove protesters from the streets, prevent bangkok shutdown and protection for polling stations, voting papers and boxes.

still, it's not an end for her - she will be elected pm for the second term

Crazy isn't it ??? if then she is elected the courts will most likely take her out with most of the PTP. So what happens then ????

Waste of public money Thailand is short of, What will Issan do when this lot is out ???? who will they vote for the ghosts ???

This democracy thing seems to be quite an issue for some here - a complicated concept. What would you rather do? Maybe install a council appointed by a deeply corrupt former deputy PM with worse democratic credentials than PTP and a human rights record that's as dark as Thaksin? Maybe she should not have called an election? But the problem with that is that it was democratically probably the right thing to do given the vocal dissatisfaction voiced by the whistle blowing Bangkok minority - when there is doubt you go for a mandate, you ask the people. Tricky concept I know, but it works worldwide hence the universal support for this election from the international community. What else would you suggest? Most of Thailand sees Suthep as a raving, dangerous nutter. Given that (and argue it if you want but it's a fact), then maybe he might not be the best person to take control - if we are to avoid a civil war. And he has zero mandate to do so.

Nope, the smart thing to do is to call an election and get the people to decide (and Thailand is not THAT broke - unless Moody's have it wrong). The dumb, dumb, thing was for the opposition to abstain. By doing so they no longer have a right to collectively call themselves anything in a democracy. The Dems have politically ceased to exist today. Idiots.

And even if YS and many PT MPs face legal sanction, the list then ensures that others move up. You are stuck with them.

If Suthep was a band they'd be called The Failures and the past few months would be their Greatest Hits culminating in today.

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

And in my 35 years of living here I've watched the poor become politically aware and that's why they vote for PTP.

Democrats are just the old clique, recycled again and again.

Every General when he retires moves straight into the businesses he cultivated through graft and favours during his time in the forces.

It has always been.

That is why the military won't let go of their grip on the throat of the Thai people.

The old families from earliest times control 90% of the economy.

Why would they let the poor spoil their party?

PTP and Thaksin recognised this and brought policies to give them a better go.

The yellows, Suthep and his ilk are just puppets for the real power in Thailand.

Thaksin was an upstart who didn't want to play in their game.

Reminds me a little of Anwar Ibrahim's situation in Malaysia.

He didn't want to play by Mahathir Mohammed's rules so trumped up charges were used to silence him.

Thaksin wasn't a cleanskin, show me one Thai politician who is, but when it suited the Dems, they dragged out the corruption mantra to demonise him.

And all the little public servants in their offices were told to get down to the airport in a yellow shirt and shut it down.

This is as transparent a game as one could wish to see.

I doubt whether the people will ever have real political power here until the military are told to do as they are instructed by a democratically elected government.

As seen in most Western democracies.

That is why Suthep came out with that outrageous idea of an unelected "people's council", they don't want an election, they can't win one.

So the tanks will be rumbling down the streets very soon.

[ggold]

This mess has started long before Thaksin even was born.

Most of Sutheps supporters do not even know what happened prior to 2010.

So now you resort to saying current protestors are uneducated, or have no knowledge of history. You're one in a million, really.

It's red propaganda, one sided view which ignores why Thailand is in this situation. All it does is support the corruption!