Bringing clients to Thailand. Any visa required?

[dreaming]

My ex wife brings people from Australia to Thailand for cosmetic surgery. She arranges it ll in Australia but them flies with them to Thailand and basically holds their hand through thew hole process. Airport, transfers, hotel, surgery, after care.

Should she have a work permit? Visa etc. She doesn't wear any form of uniform when she is in Thailand

Thanks

[homsiam]

Yes she need a workpermit here to do this trip.If she not want to get busted.She make money here and take where?If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU

[homsiam]

It is ilegaly to do this.She is a Thai?Ore an AU.If shes a Thai she now the law.If an AU i think you look and clear all thing before they crackdown on the tours,In your country ore here in Thailand

[Sheryl]

I think the issue is work permit, not visa. If they are letting her into the country, she has either a visa or visa-exempt entry stamp.

If she is doing this solo and not as an employee of any company or hospital it will be virtually impossible for her to get a work permit. She'd need to be employed by a Thai company (or company with presence in Thailand) or hospital.

[MikeandDow]

Yes she need a workpermit here to do this trip.If she not want to get busted.She make money here and take where?If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU

that is correct she will need a WP but in regard to this comment(If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU ) this is utter rubbish, you can not pay double Tax, IF she gets paid in OZ she will pay OZ tax no thai Tax, if she gets paid in Thai she should pay thai tax OP do not take any notice of this poster talks rubbish, If she wants to do the job without a WP which I doubt she can get I don't think any thing will happen But this is Thailand.

[IMA_FARANG]

Is she a Thai or not a Thai?

If she is Thai she needs no visa to enter Thailand.

Also, if she is a Thai, she needs no work permit to work in Thailand.

But if she Is not a Thai, she needs a work permit to work in Thailand.

Otherwise she needs a visa or a visa free 30 day stamp on entry into Thailand.

No, I believe (may be wrong) that the 30 day visa exempt entry is considered a tourist visa entry.

If that is the case then she is not supposed to work on a tourist visa, and also therefore on a 30 day visa exempt entry also.

So, since she is working, she technically needs a work permit to perform that work in Thailand.

This is not based on her earning any compensation for her work in Thailand, if she does any work in Thailand, whether she is compensated or not for that work in Thailand, she needs a work permit to work in Thailand.

But, in reality, they may not notice that she is anything but a tourist.

Therefore the chances of her getting caught are minimum ..... as long as she seems to be a tourist, like any other tourist..... the Labor people may never notice she is working.

Bottom line though .... if she is working as a helper escorting a patient into Thailand and working in Thailand to do that, she needs a work permit for that purpose.in Thailand.

[dreaming]

Thanks.

She is Australian farang.

She has been doing it for 6 months. No WP.

She just looks like she is friends with the group (never more than 5 people) so no-one has questioned her. She doesn't wear a uniform. But I thought it would be worth asking because I read a heap of russian tour guides got rounded up in pattaya.

She gets paid in Australia. But the hospital pays a small commission and they have said they can pay it into a thai bank account if she wants. They will withhold 3%. This may flag the authorities though?

[Maestro]

Let's rephrase the OP's question. Can the OP get his ex-wife arrested, fined and deported if he denounces her to the police for allegedly working illegally in Thailand, or if he has another person, a Thai national, make this report to the police?

[Dork]

As an Australian citizen she might consider an APEC card. Since your wife is essentially exporting a service I believe that she would be covered as regards needing a work permit. Have a look at the qualifying requirements here: https://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/business/apec/

Having said that, it is my understanding that tour guides that accompany groups on tours to Thailand are accepted as opposed to foreign tour guides based in Thailand, which aren't. It is unhelpful to refer to the Thai labour law in cases like this since a strict interpretation will mean doing almost anything requires a work permit.

Think about the hundreds of Thai tour guides accompanying Thai tour groups abroad every day.

[Dork]

Regarding withholding tax on commission payments, I think you will find that the deduction for a non-resident individual is 15% not 3% as it is for an individual that is tax resident in Thailand. It doesn't make any difference whether the funds are paid offshore or onshore. In theory the 15% deduction can be claimed back at the end of the tax year. I've never heard of anyone successfully doing that though I would guess that where the sums are large, some must.

Paying commissions to agents is very common in the export sector and in most cases the withholding tax is considered the exporters problem and the agent expects to receive the total amount however the exporter manages that. Partly this is because the competition comes from other countries so for the foreign agent would consider any deductions made in Thailand simply make it less attractive to work on behalf of Thai exporters.

[JLCrab]

Work permit/tax issues aside, if she is being paid a commission by the hospital I would also suggest that she needs a whole lotta liability insurance should something ever go wrong with any of the procedures she has arranged.

[harrry]

I would consider this to be work that falls within the definition of a tourist guide and as such see this as being a reserved occupation which also needs a tourist guide licence.

[dreaming]

Let's rephrase the OP's question. Can the OP get his ex-wife arrested, fined and deported if he denounces her to the police for allegedly working illegally in Thailand, or if he has another person, a Thai national, make this report to the police?

555. I don't want her deported. Her money helps put my kids through school.

[dreaming]

I would consider this to be work that falls within the definition of a tourist guide and as such see this as being a reserved occupation which also needs a tourist guide licence.

If she got a thai person to help her. That is, act as the guide, would this thai person need a tourist guide licence

[harrry]

I would consider this to be work that falls within the definition of a tourist guide and as such see this as being a reserved occupation which also needs a tourist guide licence.

If she got a thai person to help her. That is, act as the guide, would this thai person need a tourist guide licence

I do not know. I was just pointing out that what she is doing really comes under that definition if they wanted it to,. Any work of any kind will need a work permit. I cannot see this qualifying for one but others may disagree.

[kingstonkid]

Dreaming

The thing that is going to stand out to the authorities is not what she is doing really as much as what they may perceive her doing.

Depending on how many trips in and out of the country and the length it would not surprise me that she may get flagged by immigration and start to be searched more often and thoroughly by immigration in both countries.

Just think what other people travel in and out of the country a lot and short stays. HINT: drugs

Even if they cannot prove it unless she has proof that she is not they may start to wonder and that is all they need.

[Maestro]

Thanks.

She is Australian farang.

She has been doing it for 6 months. No WP.

She just looks like she is friends with the group (never more than 5 people) so no-one has questioned her. She doesn't wear a uniform. But I thought it would be worth asking because I read a heap of russian tour guides got rounded up in pattaya.

She gets paid in Australia. But the hospital pays a small commission and they have said they can pay it into a thai bank account if she wants. They will withhold 3%. This may flag the authorities though?

I wonder what information the hospital needs to give the revenue department about the recipient of the commission when remitting the withheld tax. Does somebody reading this have experience with it?

Otherwise, I see a small group of Australian tourists travelling together, using the medical services of a hospital in Thailand, something that is being promoted by the Tourist Authority of Thailand as "medical tourism", talking to each other, visiting each other in their hospital rooms, helping each other with communication with the hospital staff and filling out forms, etc, ie nothing that goes beyond the scope of their visas and permissions to stay, which are for the purpose of tourism.

How long does each trip for these cosmetic surgery procedures last? If not more than two weeks and if it should become necessary to treat her activity as work and seeing that the hospital seems cooperative, the hospital should look at the Necessary and Urgent Work Acknowledgment, category (a)(1) "business invitation work". The application form can be downloaded here and I believe the Department of Employment charges no fee for it. After the hospital has done it for the first time, it should later be possible to do everything by messenger. Your ex-wife does not not need to go to the DoE in person.

[Maestro]

Let's rephrase the OP's question. Can the OP get his ex-wife arrested, fined and deported if he denounces her to the police for allegedly working illegally in Thailand, or if he has another person, a Thai national, make this report to the police?

555. I don't want her deported. Her money helps put my kids through school.

Apologies for my mistaken inference; just wanted to be clear about your motive before putting in my two cents' worth.

[OJAS]

Yes she need a workpermit here to do this trip.If she not want to get busted.She make money here and take where?If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU

that is correct she will need a WP but in regard to this comment(If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU ) this is utter rubbish, you can not pay double Tax, IF she gets paid in OZ she will pay OZ tax no thai Tax, if she gets paid in Thai she should pay thai tax OP do not take any notice of this poster talks rubbish, If she wants to do the job without a WP which I doubt she can get I don't think any thing will happen But this is Thailand.

Only if there exists a suitable Double Taxation Agreement between Australia and Thailand.

[Maestro]

As the post about the Necessary and Urgent Work Acknowledgment, to which I linked above is seven years old and may get archived and thus become difficult to access, I quote the essential part of it below:

...The two week work permit you are talking about is the necessary and urgent Work Acknowledgment. It must meet the following.

(a) Administrative and educational works.

(1) conference, discussion, seminar or business invitation works.
(2) temporary internal audit
(3) special lecture and educational works
(4) aviation superintendent work

( Technical work

(1) inspection, follow-up and technical solution works.
(2) meeting work on machinery installation and technique.
(3) aircraft engineering work, aircraft mechanical work.
(4) machine repairing or installing work.
(5) petroleum technical work.
(6) machinery demonstrative or testing work.
(7) technical training and seminar work.
(8) movie taking work.

© Outbound recruitment

(1) labour choice
(2) technician test

(d) Miscellaneous work

(1) purchasing work.
(2) tour liaison
(3) public contribution work which is of non-commercial or non-profit objectives.

[Soutpeel]

Yes she need a workpermit here to do this trip.If she not want to get busted.She make money here and take where?If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU

that is correct she will need a WP but in regard to this comment(If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU ) this is utter rubbish, you can not pay double Tax, IF she gets paid in OZ she will pay OZ tax no thai Tax, if she gets paid in Thai she should pay thai tax OP do not take any notice of this poster talks rubbish, If she wants to do the job without a WP which I doubt she can get I don't think any thing will happen But this is Thailand.

Only if there exists a suitable Double Taxation Agreement between Australia and Thailand.

your correct on the double taxation bit, however from what I understand from some Aussie collegues, if for example you are paying 10% tax in Thailand on specific amount of money, but in Aussie the same amount of money would attract 15% tax, the Aussie tax man wants the 5% difference off you...I am not an Aussie so not sure how true this is...just relating what I was told

[MikeandDow]

Yes she need a workpermit here to do this trip.If she not want to get busted.She make money here and take where?If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU

that is correct she will need a WP but in regard to this comment(If she get money in AU she hawe to pay tax on both Thai and AU ) this is utter rubbish, you can not pay double Tax, IF she gets paid in OZ she will pay OZ tax no thai Tax, if she gets paid in Thai she should pay thai tax OP do not take any notice of this poster talks rubbish, If she wants to do the job without a WP which I doubt she can get I don't think any thing will happen But this is Thailand.

Only if there exists a suitable Double Taxation Agreement between Australia and Thailand.

your correct on the double taxation bit, however from what I understand from some Aussie collegues, if for example you are paying 10% tax in Thailand on specific amount of money, but in Aussie the same amount of money would attract 15% tax, the Aussie tax man wants the 5% difference off you...I am not an Aussie so not sure how true this is...just relating what I was told

what you say is correct BUT this only applies IF you reside in OZ, to me the best thing is not to volunteer info to tax man

[Soutpeel]

what you say is correct BUT this only applies IF you reside in OZ, to me the best thing is not to volunteer info to tax man

Ok..but again from what I understand...the problem comes with what the Aussie tax man interprets as residency and getting declared non-resident for tax purposes is quite difficult ?

[harrry]

Australia and thailand have a tax treaty and can do data matching too,

[biggles45]

" It is unhelpful to refer to the Thai labour law in cases like this since a strict interpretation will mean doing almost anything requires a work permit."

Yes, remember the well publicised case with the overseas Tsunami volunteers who were told to get WP or face deportation!

[VegasVic]

" It is unhelpful to refer to the Thai labour law in cases like this since a strict interpretation will mean doing almost anything requires a work permit."

Yes, remember the well publicised case with the overseas Tsunami volunteers who were told to get WP or face deportation!

Yes, but the tsunami volunteers were here full time to work, even though they were volunteers the Thai government requires a work permit. In the OP's situation as far as anyone knows his ex is just accompanying these "friends" to Thailand. The only sticking points would be the kickback from the hospitals (big red flag) and if all the hospital- hotel reservations, plane tickets ect. were set up through the ex wife (another red flag) instead in the companies name. If she were smart she would have those hospital commissions sent directly to her company in Australia avoiding any connection with Thai banks, and make sure the hospital bills, rehab facility bills and hotel bills are all remitted in her companies name from Australia. As with most Thai laws it is often how it is interpreted, as she doesn't work for any Thai company she cannot actually get a work permit, however as mentioned by Maestro in a previous post the "necessary and urgent work acknowledgment " provision could apply as she is indeed a tour liaison. If there is one particular hospital she does most of the business with, then she should ask the hospital administrator she deals with if this is necessary.

[ChiangraiTony]

This is my take on a solution: initiate the terms with your clients while in your country wether it's in a written agreement such as a contract or get partial payment upfront and then the remainder when you return to your country. When you accompany the other ladies to Thailand, it's only for sightseeing, shopping, etc.. You are a tourist and nothing more. Just showing your client/friends around Thailand.. I don't understand why things have to be so complicated.

[dreaming]

Thanks for your input guys.

Maestro - she may fit under the tour liason section of necessary and urgent Work Acknowledgment. Thanks for the info

Chiangraitony - What you have described is exactly what her take on it is. The commission from the hospital is currently being paid into her aussie bank account (she does have the option of having it paid into a thai bank account) and all other expenses are sorted before the girls leave australia.

She does come to thailand every 2 months though. I don't know if that would put up any red flags. I guess offshore workers have a similar frequency of visits

[Soutpeel]

She does come to thailand every 2 months though. I don't know if that would put up any red flags. I guess offshore workers have a similar frequency of visits

yes but your typical offshore worker is not working illegally in Thailand...

[Soutpeel]

" It is unhelpful to refer to the Thai labour law in cases like this since a strict interpretation will mean doing almost anything requires a work permit."

Yes, remember the well publicised case with the overseas Tsunami volunteers who were told to get WP or face deportation!

Yes, but the tsunami volunteers were here full time to work, even though they were volunteers the Thai government requires a work permit. In the OP's situation as far as anyone knows his ex is just accompanying these "friends" to Thailand. The only sticking points would be the kickback from the hospitals (big red flag) and if all the hospital- hotel reservations, plane tickets ect. were set up through the ex wife (another red flag) instead in the companies name. If she were smart she would have those hospital commissions sent directly to her company in Australia avoiding any connection with Thai banks, and make sure the hospital bills, rehab facility bills and hotel bills are all remitted in her companies name from Australia. As with most Thai laws it is often how it is interpreted, as she doesn't work for any Thai company she cannot actually get a work permit, however as mentioned by Maestro in a previous post the "necessary and urgent work acknowledgment " provision could apply as she is indeed a tour liaison. If there is one particular hospital she does most of the business with, then she should ask the hospital administrator she deals with if this is necessary.

I suspect the one problem in getting temporary WP's all time is that the DOL typically limit the number issued per year to a specific person, ie if they request is coming through every 2 months or so....I would think the DOL will get to point of requiring a full WP for what she is doing