Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[animatic]

US investigators are pursuing the possibility that missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 and its 239 passengers and crew are being held against their will at an unknown location.

The Wall Street Journal has this afternoon published sensational claims that counterterrorism officials now believe somebody on board deliberately turned off the plane’s transponders to avoid radar detection.

Full story here.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-and-passengers-being-held-hostage-in-new-theory/story-fnizu68q-1226853195656

Transponders do not help you avoid radar in any way.

They do prevent tracking of location by transponder receiver systems.

If you are in range of a radar system it gets your reflection, if not you are effectively invisible.

And more so if you have stealth treatments to the planes body. Which is not the case.

What IS most interesting is the Boeing monitoring system automatically getting engine info,

for satellite long after the plane has left the normal flight info grid. What is not clear is

if this is received by one satellite, or multiple, which would allow angle correlation and tracking.

The aeroplane was outside primary radar range when it went missing so turning off the transponder will definately allow it to avoid radar.

Still no.

If you fly far enough away from places with marked radar installations you will not come up on radar.

Most such zones and flight controller are marked in aviation charts. So you can avoid them if you choose to.

Having a transponder turned on does not draw radar to you. It only interacts with an existing radar plotting system,

to give the zone controller info on who is on radar.

Not transponder info no radar INFO,

but they will still be radar plotted IF in range, and contact will be attempted to identify the transponderless radar mark.

If they don't respond, then military is usually scrambled as they are considered a threat.

Edited March 13, 2014 by animatic

[Chicog]

Found it:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/BOEING-777-200ER/2001-BOEING-777-200ER/1314333.htm

Seems very cheap! Does it have transponders? Can barely buy a house in High Street Kensington for that.

Is that John Travolta's?

[khaosai]

According to a poster on Pprune forums, the engine data is transmitted with ACARS data.

Therefore for Rolls Royce to have the engine data MAS ought to by default have the other ACARS flight data since the engine data is disseminated from it. Apparently its sent through the same communications system. - at least that's what seems to be being implied.

I thought I saw somewhere that MAS doesn't have ACARS on their 777?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi,

That may well be the case but I am of the understanding that ACARS is standard fit to all Boeing 777 aircraft and will be used regularly for communication and reporting.

My experience of ACARS is that it's reliable and works well. I have in the past sent a message to engineering with some info on a minor technical issue and had a reply from them stating that they were aware of the fault due to the data having been downloaded automatically. I am not sure of what it monitors but it does seem to cover many different parameters and components.

There is a possibility that if there is a problem with the data communication management system prior to departure then ACARS may not work.

The datalink connection and transponder data seemed to stop working at the same time. That could be due to catastrophic failure no doubt, but could also be achieved within the flight deck quite easily within 5 seconds.

Some mention was made to controllers stationed in Rayong having picked up some radio transmissions. If this was the case then other aircraft would have heard these transmissions too.

Reference was also made to a radar image travelling westbound at an intermediate flight level, 29500ft. That would be a contingency procedure used quite often in busy airspace to prevent collision. I am not sure how primary radar could determine the height of the aircraft, but may be possible.

[balo]

If there was some kind of problem with the electrical system that managed to take out all their transponders, navigation and communication equipment and the plane had continued to fly for hours afterwards, it wouldn't have affected the (probably) hundreds of smart phones/iPads/Tablets that people would have been using.

People on that hijacked flight in during 9/11 managed to make calls before they crashed. I'm sure that unless it was an instantaneous, catastrophic event, plenty of people on that plane would have been making calls and sending text messages, if for no other reason than to let people at the other end know they was a problem or delay.

(And you know that despite all the pre-flight announcements, plenty of people keep their phones/tablets active in flight. I've been trying to find a map showing mobile coverage to see where the a/c would have to be before it was out of areas covered by any mobile networks.)

I also recall the one article in which the pilot of an a/c approx. 30 minutes ahead of MH370 was asked by Vietnamese ATC to contact the other plane. That would indicate that their ATC knew the flight was in their airspace but normal contact hadn't been made.

An unidentified aircraft, not responding to ATC, heading into Vietnamese airspace.........

Thats why I believe in the theory that something happened with the cabin pressure, maybe a part of the roof went off and there was no time to put on the oxygen masks so both passengers and crew lost consciousness. Then the plane could have been up in the air for another 4 hours, and the people onboard were probably dead already because of the lack of oxygen and the freezing temperatures . .

Edited March 13, 2014 by balo

[jpinx]

I believe that the system is installed, but MA do not pay for the data to be relayed to them.

[metisdead]

Posts to a commercial web site has been removed as well as the replies.

[noddy77]

US investigators are pursuing the possibility that missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 and its 239 passengers and crew are being held against their will at an unknown location.

The Wall Street Journal has this afternoon published sensational claims that counterterrorism officials now believe somebody on board deliberately turned off the plane’s transponders to avoid radar detection.

Full story here.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-and-passengers-being-held-hostage-in-new-theory/story-fnizu68q-1226853195656

Transponders do not help you avoid radar in any way.

They do prevent tracking of location by transponder receiver systems.

If you are in range of a radar system it gets your reflection, if not you are effectively invisible.

And more so if you have stealth treatments to the planes body. Which is not the case.

What IS most interesting is the Boeing monitoring system automatically getting engine info,

for satellite long after the plane has left the normal flight info grid. What is not clear is

if this is received by one satellite, or multiple, which would allow angle correlation and tracking.

The aeroplane was outside primary radar range when it went missing so turning off the transponder will definately allow it to avoid radar.

Still no.

If you fly far enough away from places with marked radar installations you will not come up on radar.

Most such zones and flight controller are marked in aviation charts. So you can avoid them if you choose to.

Having a transponder turned on does not draw radar to you. It only interacts with an existing radar plotting system,

to give the zone controller info on who is on radar.

Not transponder info no radar INFO,

but they will still be radar plotted IF in range, and contact will be attempted to identify the transponderless radar mark.

If they don't respond, then military is usually scrambled as they are considered a threat.

I think we all know this now. But in adding to the story I posted the link to its clear as day the plane was outside primary radar coverage when it vanished. If it did indeed decent to 1500ft as claimed it could fly through an area outside of radar coverage with the transponder off and fly on to somewhere. I hope there's plenty of cold suitable drinks there and nice food a lodgings if this is the case. I'd be cranky as hell staying somewhere without that.

[Lite Beer]

US suspects missing plane flew on for hours: WSJ report
WASHINGTON
US investigators suspect a missing Malaysian airliner was in the air for four hours after its last confirmed contact, the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday, deepening the mystery surrounding the disappearance.

It said US aviation investigators and national security officials are basing their theory on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Rolls Royce engines, which suggested the Boeing 777 flew for a total of five hours.

The WSJ attributed the information to two unidentified sources "familiar with the details".

It could mean that the Malaysia Airlines flight, which had 239 people on board, travelled for hundreds of miles after its last contact with air traffic control at around 1.30 am Saturday (1730 GMT Friday) -- about an hour after takeoff from Kuala Lumpur en route to Beijing.

Search teams are already covering a huge area comprising 27,000 nautical miles (more than 90,000 square kilometres), from the South China Sea to the waters west of Malaysia.

Investigators have made clear that they are still considering hijacking as one of their lines of inquiry and the CIA has said that a terror link has not been ruled out.

"US counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner’s transponders to avoid radar detection," the WSJ reported, citing "one person tracking the probe".

It went on to say that the uncertainty over the plane’s course and why its transponders were not working "has raised theories among investigators that the aircraft may have been commandeered for a reason that appears unclear to US authorities".

Officials had been told that investigators were pursuing the theory that the plane was diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose", the WSJ quoted one source as saying.

Frustration over the shifting focus of the search and apparent lack of concrete information on the flight path of the plane has led to accusations of a chaotic and confused response by the Malaysian authorities and the airline.

-- The Nation 2014-03-13

[slipperylobster]

turned out to be nothing..... why do they publish half baked articles of hope.....only to lose all credibility.

[ignis]

So where could the plane go in another 4 hours ?

Has the new dear leader got a problem with China ? or any other place within 4 hours flight.

If it did crash where was it in 4 hours ? and what direction ?

cannot be where they looking as far less then 4 hours flying time that is why nothing has been found

Edited March 13, 2014 by ignis

[JDGRUEN]

If there was some kind of problem with the electrical system that managed to take out all their transponders, navigation and communication equipment and the plane had continued to fly for hours afterwards, it wouldn't have affected the (probably) hundreds of smart phones/iPads/Tablets that people would have been using.

People on that hijacked flight in during 9/11 managed to make calls before they crashed. I'm sure that unless it was an instantaneous, catastrophic event, plenty of people on that plane would have been making calls and sending text messages, if for no other reason than to let people at the other end know they was a problem or delay.

(And you know that despite all the pre-flight announcements, plenty of people keep their phones/tablets active in flight. I've been trying to find a map showing mobile coverage to see where the a/c would have to be before it was out of areas covered by any mobile networks.)

I also recall the one article in which the pilot of an a/c approx. 30 minutes ahead of MH370 was asked by Vietnamese ATC to contact the other plane. That would indicate that their ATC knew the flight was in their airspace but normal contact hadn't been made.

An unidentified aircraft, not responding to ATC, heading into Vietnamese airspace.........

The aircraft was supposed to have been out over the sea... far from any cell / mobile phone transmitting / receiving / relay tower. Even if the aircraft was offered in flight WiFi - the same electrical problem that happened to the flight communications would have taken out any WiFi / Internet ability - if any even existed. Cell Phones on the 9-11 flights worked because they were flying over cell towers. Unless someone had a satellite phone - which somehow would work on a crippled flight ... then cell / mobile phone communications - out over the sea seems not to be possible. I will stand corrected if anyone can post a plausible explanation as to how cell service works far from land under the conditions I describe.

[JesseFrank]

It said US aviation investigators and national security officials are basing their theory on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Rolls Royce engines, which suggested the Boeing 777 flew for a total of five hours.

If continuously information from the engines is sent to the ground, it must go over satellite, and they must be able to know from which location that information was received.

[retell]

Engines transmitting data ,that ones new to me , could not be so lucky it included gps signals ?

[davejones23]

How is the engine data downloaded to RR? Surely they'd be able to trace where the readings came from and know the direction of the flight and where the engines were switched off. And how come the engines can still transmit data when all other comms appear to off, unless the pilot can manually switch them off but can's switch the engine comms off. If this is true, it could either be a hijack, or every on plane unconscious or dead with plane flying on autopilot until it crashes.

But very odd that an unidentified plane can fly for 4 hours without being picked up by any country's military. Or maybe it has been but they aren't telling us.

Rumors of huge amounts gold and cash on board. Maybe gold wasn't stolen and not loaded on the plane. The plane was destroyed thousands of kms away so that no-one would ever know.

If it was really hijacked and flown to a secret destination, what would they do with 239 passengers and crew.

[slipperylobster]

Fly where? fly how? No gas

[SeaVisionBurma]

Post containing speculative information with no attributable link provided has been removed.

Starting to get off track and off topic again.

Please do not re-post old news which was already posted by other members hours or days ago.

And please provide a credible link to information sources when posting.

edit: and John Travolta has a 707 in QANTAS colours, so lets NOT have any more mention about him

[draftvader]

How is the engine data downloaded to RR? Surely they'd be able to trace where the readings came from and know the direction of the flight and where the engines were switched off. And how come the engines can still transmit data when all other comms appear to off, unless the pilot can manually switch them off but can's switch the engine comms off. If this is true, it could either be a hijack, or every on plane unconscious or dead with plane flying on autopilot until it crashes.

But very odd that an unidentified plane can fly for 4 hours without being picked up by any country's military. Or maybe it has been but they aren't telling us.

Rumors of huge amounts gold and cash on board. Maybe gold wasn't stolen and not loaded on the plane. The plane was destroyed thousands of kms away so that no-one would ever know.

If it was really hijacked and flown to a secret destination, what would they do with 239 passengers and crew.

Pilot and/or co-pilot complicit. Why worry about finding a pilot for your mission if there is one on board who is corruptible (very possible round here). Rest of the crew subdued/paid off? Passengers subdued and sold onto certain anti-Chinese government groups. Heading North from Phuket who do we have who is anti-Chinese?

Parts of Myanmar

Tibet

Xinjiang

[laolover88]

It said US aviation investigators and national security officials are basing their theory on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Rolls Royce engines, which suggested the Boeing 777 flew for a total of five hours.

If continuously information from the engines is sent to the ground, it must go over satellite, and they must be able to know from which location that information was received.

It is not continuous. It goes in packets. It is reported there were packets on take off and when reaching cruise level. There must have been more, I should think, but RR, Boeing, MAS keeping very quiet about this.

[jpinx]

ACARS information. Point to note -- Boeing decline to comment if the system is installed on MH380 --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Communications_Addressing_and_Reporting_System

http://www.acarsd.org/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/us-malaysia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

Quote --

Facts about ACARS

ACARS ( Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System also called Email for Aircrafts) is a digital data link system transmitted via VHF radio which allows Airline Flight Operations Departments to communicate with the various Aircraft in their Fleet. (not every aircraft is equipped with the ACARS System or the ACARS system is disabled)

NOT only by satellite......

Edited March 13, 2014 by jpinx

[shawndoc]

How is the engine data downloaded to RR? Surely they'd be able to trace where the readings came from and know the direction of the flight and where the engines were switched off. And how come the engines can still transmit data when all other comms appear to off, unless the pilot can manually switch them off but can's switch the engine comms off. If this is true, it could either be a hijack, or every on plane unconscious or dead with plane flying on autopilot until it crashes.

But very odd that an unidentified plane can fly for 4 hours without being picked up by any country's military. Or maybe it has been but they aren't telling us.

Rumors of huge amounts gold and cash on board. Maybe gold wasn't stolen and not loaded on the plane. The plane was destroyed thousands of kms away so that no-one would ever know.

If it was really hijacked and flown to a secret destination, what would they do with 239 passengers and crew.

Pilot and/or co-pilot complicit. Why worry about finding a pilot for your mission if there is one on board who is corruptible (very possible round here). Rest of the crew subdued/paid off? Passengers subdued and sold onto certain anti-Chinese government groups. Heading North from Phuket who do we have who is anti-Chinese?

Parts of Myanmar

Tibet

Xinjiang

If the pilots were behind it there would be no need to subdue the passengers or flight attendants until they landed. I'm going to assume the in-flight map was shut off showing their location on the entertainment consoles. They would have no idea they were going the wrong direction until they landed and the airport didn't match. Even that could be easily explained away by telling everyone the flight had to divert to a different airport due to weather/mechanical issues.

The only issue I could see would be someone turning on their cell phone when they land, which, provided they were within range of a cell tower, would register on the network and provide a way to trace the their destination.

[angeldevil69]

We all saw the pictures of the Capt's home simulator. Wonder if anyone tried to find out what flights, exercises or flight missions he did previously!

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Hulkster]

If it were shot down there'd be pieces of plane all over the sea, with some of it having washed ashore.

[khaosai]

Hi,

There is a directive which has been introduced due to cracks having been discovered on the top of the fuselage where the satellite communication is located. The location is basically on the roof in line with the leading edge or trailing edge of the wing.

If the aircraft suffered catastrophic structural damage there would obviously be an immediate depressurisation. If it then remained intact it's imperative the crew get the oxygen masks on immediately to ensure survival. The time of useful consciousness at that sort of height is mere seconds without a supply of oxygen.

Like the authorities I have no idea what has happened to the aircraft. I take a very keen interest in all ideas and thoughts on what may have happened tho and will try to offer some accurate information if possible.

[hanno]

Conspirationists alive and well.......

[rabas]

So where could the plane go in another 4 hours ?

Has the new dear leader got a problem with China ? or any other place within 4 hours flight.

If it did crash where was it in 4 hours ? and what direction ?

cannot be where they looking as far less then 4 hours flying time that is why nothing has been found

Pakistan.

An additional 4 hours from it's last known spot would put it just about on the boarder of Pakistan, as the crow flies.

But engine data is reported only every 1/2 hour and "4 hours" is an estimate. It could have been longer that 4 hours.

With 5 or so hours they could have by passed India and flown over ocean all the way.

Only radar would be the narrow strip at the bottom of Thailand (where they were reportedly seen), and India.

That one sighting also indicates a heading in the direction of Pakistan.

Edited March 13, 2014 by rabas

[draftvader]

How is the engine data downloaded to RR? Surely they'd be able to trace where the readings came from and know the direction of the flight and where the engines were switched off. And how come the engines can still transmit data when all other comms appear to off, unless the pilot can manually switch them off but can's switch the engine comms off. If this is true, it could either be a hijack, or every on plane unconscious or dead with plane flying on autopilot until it crashes.

But very odd that an unidentified plane can fly for 4 hours without being picked up by any country's military. Or maybe it has been but they aren't telling us.

Rumors of huge amounts gold and cash on board. Maybe gold wasn't stolen and not loaded on the plane. The plane was destroyed thousands of kms away so that no-one would ever know.

If it was really hijacked and flown to a secret destination, what would they do with 239 passengers and crew.

Pilot and/or co-pilot complicit. Why worry about finding a pilot for your mission if there is one on board who is corruptible (very possible round here). Rest of the crew subdued/paid off? Passengers subdued and sold onto certain anti-Chinese government groups. Heading North from Phuket who do we have who is anti-Chinese?

Parts of Myanmar

Tibet

Xinjiang

If the pilots were behind it there would be no need to subdue the passengers or flight attendants until they landed. I'm going to assume the in-flight map was shut off showing their location on the entertainment consoles. They would have no idea they were going the wrong direction until they landed and the airport didn't match. Even that could be easily explained away by telling everyone the flight had to divert to a different airport due to weather/mechanical issues.

The only issue I could see would be someone turning on their cell phone when they land, which, provided they were within range of a cell tower, would register on the network and provide a way to trace the their destination.

That and the 1km height pass over a city at night (Kuala Terenganu) might give away that something is very wrong. I'd hate to be the one telling 227 people (mostly Chinese Nationals) that their airplane insomnia will no be absorbed by mind-less programming

[draftvader]

So where could the plane go in another 4 hours ?

Has the new dear leader got a problem with China ? or any other place within 4 hours flight.

If it did crash where was it in 4 hours ? and what direction ?

cannot be where they looking as far less then 4 hours flying time that is why nothing has been found

Pakistan.

An additional 4 hours from it's last known spot would put it just about on the boarder of Pakistan, as the crow flies.

But engine data is reported only every 1/2 hour and "4 hours" is an estimate. It could have been longer that 4 hours.

With 5 or so hours they could have by passed India and flown over ocean all the way.

Only radar would be the narrow strip at the bottom of Thailand (where they were reportedly seen), and India.

My issue with this is just how busy the air-ways above India are. 2 days by train or 2 hours by plane. India has voted on that one with its wallet.

[coma]

" U.S. counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner's transponders to avoid radar detection"

Love the theory. One that I put forward earlier on in the tread. If the Malay Military were tracking it and it did turned back, range, last heading and speed would put it possibly in Pakistan. Right ? Or did somebody shoot it down before it got to its final destination ?

[khaosai]

ACARS information. Point to note -- Boeing decline to comment if the system is installed on MH380 --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Communications_Addressing_and_Reporting_System

http://www.acarsd.org/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/us-malaysia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

Quote --

Facts about ACARS

ACARS ( Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System also called Email for Aircrafts) is a digital data link system transmitted via VHF radio which allows Airline Flight Operations Departments to communicate with the various Aircraft in their Fleet. (not every aircraft is equipped with the ACARS System or the ACARS system is disabled)

NOT only by satellite......

Hi,

It will work by using different VHF frequencies around the world but if not in VHF coverage it changes to satcom. It's basically 2 sub networks. VHF through the centre radio panel in data mode and then automatically changing to satcom if required. VHF is generally preferred as it's cheaper and transmits faster.

If the aircraft remained at high level, intact and under control with approx 45 tons of fuel then it will potentially be able to travel 2500 nautical miles.

Edited March 13, 2014 by khaosai

[slipperylobster]

A military airbase....for refueling? And then on to where? Incredible story..... But wait.... why no ransom...why no warbling old ladies dancing around in the goat field? How could this be a hostage situation if no ransom notes/demands are made? Or are these being kept quiet? Perhaps for a surprise rescue?