EEA FP and benefits

[7by7]

To be fair to the OP, if he were to renounce his British citizenship and so be only Irish rather than a dual national, he would not have to move to the Republic; he could remain in Northern Ireland, i.e. the UK, and use the EEA regulations to bring his wife to live with him.

If he continues to receive the state benefits the UK currently pays him and if the income from those benefits is classed as him being self sufficient and so qualifying under the EEA regulations and if he and his wife would not be considered an unreasonable burden on the state.

Three big 'ifs' which I don't know the answers to.

[r4b]

Sounds to me like you have your answer, the British system has said that you fall outside the regulations on being able to support your wife due to your only income being drawn purely from UK Government Benefits, doesn't matter when the rules changed or how often the rules and guidance change they appear to be the rules right now

Like you said you now have the option to renounce your British Passport with all its benefits and get yourself over the border and use the EEA method with your Irish citizenship, it will be very interesting to see if the Irish Benefits system is quite so generous with the money they give out especially to someone who has voluntarily chosen to become homeless.........

it seems you have not paid due attention and your answer falls outside of my posts. My wife was refused under Settlement visa for uk. This issue is totally different and of the EEA family permit not visa so to speak.

[mark131v]

The options to get your wife to the UK as I have seen over several different posts are firstly to apply for a UK Settlement visa as a British Citizen, you have already tried this and it did not work as you are deemed as unable to provide adequately for your family as your only income is benefits from the UK Govt

The other option you have brought up is to renounce your British Citizenship and apply for Irish Citizenship and then go through the Irish system and the EEA method, it still appears to me that your only method of income is through UK Benefits so I am really struggling to see how you can suddenly provide adequate support for your wife and family as an Irish citizen when your sole income and housing is paid by a country whose citizenship you will have renounced

The only other option I can see is through the Surinder Singh method of you moving to another part of the EU as a working self funded person for a given period of time to qualify, seems you cant do this as your only income is UK Benefits and you cannot work, see the common link here.....

Will be interesting to see how this ends up but as they say on Dragons Den, I am out...

[7by7]

From The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006

“Worker”, “self-employed person”, “self-sufficient person” and “student”

4. (1) In these Regulations —

© “self-sufficient person” means a person who has—
(i) sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom during his period of residence; and
(ii) comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the United Kingdom;

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)©, where family members of the person concerned reside in the United Kingdom and their right to reside is dependent upon their being family members of that person—

(a) the requirement for that person to have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom during his period of residence shall only be satisfied if his resources and those of the family members are sufficient to avoid him and the family members becoming such a burden;
( b ) the requirement for that person to have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the United Kingdom shall only be satisfied if he and his family members have such cover.

Based upn that, I think that you would not be classed as 'self sufficient' and so can't claim to be exercising a treaty right on that basis. I also think that you, and certainly your wife, would fail the 'unreasonable burden upon the state' provision.

But I could be wrong; seek professional advice.

Addendum:

See also this page of the same regulations

(2) A person who is no longer working shall not cease to be treated as a worker for the purpose of paragraph (1)( B ) if—

(a) he is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

(My emphasis)

As you are in receipt of DLA I assume this means you are permanently unable to work and so can't qualify as a worker.

It looks to me that you should abandon this route and concentrate on appealing her previous settlement visa refusal.

Edited March 29, 2014 by 7by7

[r4b]

The options to get your wife to the UK as I have seen over several different posts are firstly to apply for a UK Settlement visa as a British Citizen, you have already tried this and it did not work as you are deemed as unable to provide adequately for your family as your only income is benefits from the UK Govt

The other option you have brought up is to renounce your British Citizenship and apply for Irish Citizenship and then go through the Irish system and the EEA method, it still appears to me that your only method of income is through UK Benefits so I am really struggling to see how you can suddenly provide adequate support for your wife and family as an Irish citizen when your sole income and housing is paid by a country whose citizenship you will have renounced

The only other option I can see is through the Surinder Singh method of you moving to another part of the EU as a working self funded person for a given period of time to qualify, seems you cant do this as your only income is UK Benefits and you cannot work, see the common link here.....

Will be interesting to see how this ends up but as they say on Dragons Den, I am out...

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and all replies are helpful even if i may not agree. However my birthright is to be irish or british or both. if i choose to take a british passport 1st and then change my mind and decide i no longer choose to be british but irish. This is my basic human right and as a resident of the island of ireland i am intitled to benefit in either north or south. If any person as i understand is a resident of a country as i understand this gives them the right to use the benefits system. I add, I am NOT a benefits scrounger as some may seem to be of impression, I am disabled. lets not forget this please.

[marstons]

just open another thread, nit pick and disagree with all advice given from people who know what they are talking about. All this is a repeat of your previous thread. TV members do not decide who gets in and who does not. Go see a lawyer as advised you sure should be able to afford one. You managed to turn a immigration thread into a political statement. Take it you mean born and bred not born and bread.

Why not open a thread in another forum if you want to get into politics, because I think you lost the sympathy vote a while ago. Accept the help being offered for FREE by people giving up their time to try and help. FREE and you did not have to fill a claim form out to get it, and from people who come from the Britain with a capital B in front of it.

[r4b]

From The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006

“Worker”, “self-employed person”, “self-sufficient person” and “student”

4. (1) In these Regulations —

© “self-sufficient person” means a person who has—

(i) sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom during his period of residence; and

(ii) comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the United Kingdom;

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)©, where family members of the person concerned reside in the United Kingdom and their right to reside is dependent upon their being family members of that person—

(a) the requirement for that person to have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom during his period of residence shall only be satisfied if his resources and those of the family members are sufficient to avoid him and the family members becoming such a burden;

( b ) the requirement for that person to have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the United Kingdom shall only be satisfied if he and his family members have such cover.

Based upn that, I think that you would not be classed as 'self sufficient' and so can't claim to be exercising a treaty right on that basis. I also think that you, and certainly your wife, would fail the 'unreasonable burden upon the state' provision.

But I could be wrong; seek professional advice.

Hi thanks for your replies. they are much appreciated. I would maybe agree with you on this but again i dont know. However it mentions about being a resident which alone this qualifies my wife to join me does it not as long as we are not a burden on the state. I am resident of the UK so this is ok but as you say what is classed as a buren on the state. this is the thing which like you say will need legal attention. My 2 children both british citizens cannot be classed in my apllication i expect (if i was to change to irish) as a burden because they are british so it would only be myself and my wife. the benefits i get for my children wouldnt be able to be used against me because again this is their intitlement as british citizens living in britian. ie child tax credit and child benefit. (Benefits) which all working people with kids get i add.

[7by7]

as a resident of the island of ireland i am intitled to benefit in either north or south.

Are you sure? Whether you like the fact or not, the South is one country, the Republic of Ireland, and the North is part of another, the UK.

First time I've heard of a resident of one country being able to claim state benefits in another!

If any person as i understand is a resident of a country as i understand this gives them the right to use the benefits system

Not necessarily; see the links to and quotes from The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 I posted above; and the prohibition on most public funds for those entering the UK to live until they have ILR.

But the points are moot as it appears from the EEA regulations that were you to renounce your British citizenship you would not a qualified person under those regulations; i.e. you would not not exercising one of the specified treaty rights.

[r4b]

just open another thread, nit pick and disagree with all advice given from people who know what they are talking about. All this is a repeat of your previous thread. TV members do not decide who gets in and who does not. Go see a lawyer as advised you sure should be able to afford one. You managed to turn a immigration thread into a political statement. Take it you mean born and bred not born and bread.

Why not open a thread in another forum if you want to get into politics, because I think you lost the sympathy vote a while ago. Accept the help being offered for FREE by people giving up their time to try and help. FREE and you did not have to fill a claim form out to get it, and from people who come from the Britain with a capital B in front of it.

All posts and thoughts are immigration related. The fact of me changing my citizenship is immigration related and in most things involving uk/ireland northern ireland politics goes hand in hand. Who you think makes the immigration rules ?. Nobody is asking you to read or leave a comment. if you dont find the topic of interest then dont take part. But i can assure you this is not a one off issue and the finding here i am 100% will be of use to others. the point of the site is it not !!.

[7by7]

I would maybe agree with you (7by7) on this but again i dont know. However it mentions about being a resident which alone this qualifies my wife to join me does it not as long as we are not a burden on the state.

No, you would need to be exercising a treaty right as a worker, self-employed person, self-sufficient person or student . As far as I can tell you are not so doing because you are totally reliant upon state benefits.

the benefits i get for my children wouldnt be able to be used against me because again this is their intitlement as british citizens living in britian. ie child tax credit and child benefit. (Benefits) which all working people with kids get i add.

It is not their entitlement; it is yours. Although you may still be entitled to receive it were you to renounce your British nationality. Whether your doing so means you would then be classed as an unreasonable burden upon the state, I don't know.

Not all working people with children get tax credits and/or child benefit; only those earning below set maximum incomes for each benefit.

You are making far too many assumptions; indeed your whole argument seems to be based upon false assumptions.

I have given you my point of view. Not one based up[on assumptions, rather one based upon the regulations.

You may disagree; I may be wrong.

But don't assume that I am; check with a professional.

[r4b]

as a resident of the island of ireland i am intitled to benefit in either north or south.

Are you sure? Whether you like the fact or not, the South is one country, the Republic of Ireland, and the North is part of another, the UK.

First time I've heard of a resident of one country being able to claim state benefits in another!

If any person as i understand is a resident of a country as i understand this gives them the right to use the benefits system

Not necessarily; see the links to and quotes from The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 I posted above; and the prohibition on most public funds for those entering the UK to live until they have ILR.

But the points are moot as it appears from the EEA regulations that were you to renounce your British citizenship you would not a qualified person under those regulations; i.e. you would not not exercising one of the specified treaty rights.

Yes 100% a person from north can claim south no problem. I know this first hand. Infact not so long ago before the 2 governments shared details people along the boarder area and beyond would claim in both at the same time.

Regardless if i renounce my british citizenship i am still a resident in Northern Ireland UK. and being a resident qualifies me for all benefits does it not. People who have obtained irish passports from the north are not british citizens but irish and are intitled to benefits in the north so why would this be different from someone who obtains irish passport after giving up there british one. being resident excercises the treaty rights does it not.

[7by7]

The fact of me changing my citizenship is immigration related and in most things involving uk/ireland northern ireland politics goes hand in hand. Who you think makes the immigration rules ?.

With regards to this issue; it is the EU who made the rules; although each member state then introduced their own regulations and procedures to implement those rules.

If you go down this route your wife will be applying to join you in the UK.

The INIS will have absolutely no say in the matter; the Irish regulations are totally irrelevant.

Your wife will be applying to the UKVI who will make their decision based upon the UK's regulations as previously linked to.

[r4b]

It is clearly stated in the wikipedia i posted earlier. A person born in the north is intitled to be irish only if they so choose. Do you think this goes hand in hand as being treated as a foreigner or from another eea state. the answer to this is clearly NO. The irish and the british government treat northern ireland as a special case.. This is Fact and set out under the terms of the good friday agreement.

Edited March 29, 2014 by r4b

[7by7]

Yes 100% a person from north can claim south no problem. I know this first hand. Infact not so long ago before the 2 governments shared details people along the boarder area and beyond would claim in both at the same time.

Regardless if i renounce my british citizenship i am still a resident in Northern Ireland UK. and being a resident qualifies me for all benefits does it not. People who have obtained irish passports from the north are not british citizens but irish and are intitled to benefits in the north so why would this be different from someone who obtains irish passport after giving up there british one.

I will take your word on that as I can't be arsed to check.

being resident excercises the treaty rights does it not.

<deleted>, how many more times???!!!!

BEING A UK RESIDENT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!

For your wife to join you in the UK using the EEA regulations YOU MUST BE EXERCISING A TREATY RIGHT IN THE UK!!!!!

That is:-

• WORKER
• SELF EMPLOYED PERSON
• SELF SUFFICIENT PERSON
• STUDENT.

Got it now?

I don't see how living totally off of the state falls into any of those categories. But I may be wrong.

[r4b]

The fact of me changing my citizenship is immigration related and in most things involving uk/ireland northern ireland politics goes hand in hand. Who you think makes the immigration rules ?.

With regards to this issue; it is the EU who made the rules; although each member state then introduced their own regulations and procedures to implement those rules.

If you go down this route your wife will be applying to join you in the UK.

The INIS will have absolutely no say in the matter; the Irish regulations are totally irrelevant.

Your wife will be applying to the UKVI who will make their decision based upon the UK's regulations as previously linked to.

Yes this i know and understand.

[7by7]

It is clearly stated in the wikipedia i posted earlier. A person born in the north is intitled to be irish only if they so choose. Do you think this goes hand in hand as being treated as a foreigner or from another eea state. the answer to this is clearly NO. The irish and the british government treat northern ireland as a special case.. This is Fact and set out under the terms of the good friday agreement.

If you renounce your British citizenship, you are no longer a British citizen.

Please show me anywhere in EU law where it says that the EU freedom of movement regulations will treat the UK and RoI as a special case.

The UK and RoI are in a Common Travel Area; which means that citizens of either country can travel to, live in and work in the other without restriction.

But that does not apply to their non EEA national family members.

The Good Friday Agreement has as much relevance to this topic as the Irish immigration rules; that is none!

[r4b]

Yes 100% a person from north can claim south no problem. I know this first hand. Infact not so long ago before the 2 governments shared details people along the boarder area and beyond would claim in both at the same time.

Regardless if i renounce my british citizenship i am still a resident in Northern Ireland UK. and being a resident qualifies me for all benefits does it not. People who have obtained irish passports from the north are not british citizens but irish and are intitled to benefits in the north so why would this be different from someone who obtains irish passport after giving up there british one.

I will take your word on that as I can't be arsed to check.

being resident excercises the treaty rights does it not.

<deleted>, how many more times???!!!!

BEING A UK RESIDENT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!

For your wife to join you in the UK using the EEA regulations YOU MUST BE EXERCISING A TREATY RIGHT IN THE UK!!!!!

That is:-

• WORKER
• SELF EMPLOYED PERSON
• SELF SUFFICIENT PERSON
• STUDENT.

Got it now?

I don't see how living totally off of the state falls into any of those categories. But I may be wrong.

So your point is you have not got a clue either on the answers to my original post. You can only guess and make assumptions. But i do appreciate you taking the time to assume. many thanks

[7by7]

You asked for opinions, I have given you mine. An opinion based upon the EEA regulations.

Have you read those regulations?

You are neither working nor self employed.

You are not a student.

Your only income is from the UK state; perhaps you can explain how that qualifies you as self sufficient.

You don't care for that opinion; fine; I will not offer you any more.

[r4b]

It is clearly stated in the wikipedia i posted earlier. A person born in the north is intitled to be irish only if they so choose. Do you think this goes hand in hand as being treated as a foreigner or from another eea state. the answer to this is clearly NO. The irish and the british government treat northern ireland as a special case.. This is Fact and set out under the terms of the good friday agreement.

If you renounce your British citizenship, you are no longer a British citizen.

Please show me anywhere in EU law where it says that the EU freedom of movement regulations will treat the UK and RoI as a special case.

The UK and RoI are in a Common Travel Area; which means that citizens of either country can travel to, live in and work in the other without restriction.

But that does not apply to their non EEA national family members.

The Good Friday Agreement has as much relevance to this topic as the Irish immigration rules; that is none!

The Good Friday Agreement has everything to do with it. Because it is under the good friday agreement the rules for Irish/british citizenship/residence where set for the people of Northern Ireland.

[r4b]

You asked for opinions, I have given you mine. An opinion based upon the EEA regulations.

Have you read those regulations?

You are neither working nor self employed.

You are not a student.

Your only income is from the UK state; perhaps you can explain how that qualifies you as self sufficient.

You don't care for that opinion; fine; I will not offer you any more.

Yes i care for opinion of course. but i also go by fact and fact is what i aim to find. These are all points i had known/know and not the question in which i asked, I asked if myself being on disability benefits would effect my wifes application for eeafp. I know it says a burden on the state but i was hoping someone would know exactly what this means by burden on the state and nowhere can i find any reference to without recourse to public funds etc etc, as it does on the spouse visa.

[mark131v]

Doesn't matter where you live or what passport you hold all that matters is that you want to bring a none EEA spouse to the UK to be with you, there are rules about who is deemed as able to do this and it is stipulated that if you do not meet certain criteria or that if you or the spouse are or may become a burden to the state then permission will not be granted, seems straightforward to me that if your income is purely state benefits then you do not meet the criteria and your spouse would certainly become a burden on the UK taxpayer, not what you want to hear but life aint always fair and as a British citizen personally I think that is the right decision

Edited March 29, 2014 by mark131v

[r4b]

Doesn't matter where you live or what passport you hold all that matters is that you want to bring a none EEA spouse to the UK to be with you, there are rules about who is deemed as able to do this and it is stipulated that if you do not meet certain criteria or that if you or the spouse are or may become a burden to the state then permission will not be granted, seems straightforward to me that if your income is purely state benefits then you do not meet the criteria and your spouse would certainly become a burden on the UK taxpayer, not what you want to hear but life aint always fair and as a British citizen personally I think that is the right decision

Define burden of the state please !. Your personal opinion seems somewhat bigotry.

[CiaranO]

I have read all the posts made here and on other topics by the OP.

Firstly I am sorry to hear that your visa application has been denied. You seem very enraged by all of this and it certainly shows in your posts. You need to relax and take it easy and start to research properly. Consulting a lawyer is the first step as your situation seems very complicated.

The second step is to realize this is going to take along time to resolve and wont be solved in a couple of months.

In relation to the EEA Family permit do your research - you are making it sound way to easy. Its not. As a Republic of Ireland Citizen i would take issue with you that you are simply going to waltz down to Government House and receive your disability, child allowance and a house. Trust me it wont be that easy. Ireland has tightened up on many many benefits since the IMF bailout. House are not simply given out to someone who has never made PRSI payments (income tax) in the south regardless of what special relationship exists.

And finally dont forget no matter what you do you will have to apply for the EEA Family permit from the UK. They will see your wife made a previous application and for sure will take a dim view of you in their minds trying to circumvent the system.

[r4b]

Doesn't matter where you live or what passport you hold all that matters is that you want to bring a none EEA spouse to the UK to be with you, there are rules about who is deemed as able to do this and it is stipulated that if you do not meet certain criteria or that if you or the spouse are or may become a burden to the state then permission will not be granted, seems straightforward to me that if your income is purely state benefits then you do not meet the criteria and your spouse would certainly become a burden on the UK taxpayer, not what you want to hear but life aint always fair and as a British citizen personally I think that is the right decision

Define burden of the state please !. Your personal opinion seems somewhat bigotry.

On your personal opinion Why should a person who is disabled and unable to work through their disability not have the same rights as anyone one.

[r4b]

I have read all the posts made here and on other topics by the OP.

Firstly I am sorry to hear that your visa application has been denied. You seem very enraged by all of this and it certainly shows in your posts. You need to relax and take it easy and start to research properly. Consulting a lawyer is the first step as your situation seems very complicated.

The second step is to realize this is going to take along time to resolve and wont be solved in a couple of months.

In relation to the EEA Family permit do your research - you are making it sound way to easy. Its not. As a Republic of Ireland Citizen i would take issue with you that you are simply going to waltz down to Government House and receive your disability, child allowance and a house. Trust me it wont be that easy. Ireland has tightened up on many many benefits since the IMF bailout. House are not simply given out to someone who has never made PRSI payments (income tax) in the south regardless of what special relationship exists.

And finally dont forget no matter what you do you will have to apply for the EEA Family permit from the UK. They will see your wife made a previous application and for sure will take a dim view of you in their minds trying to circumvent the system.

Thanks for your reply. although you are mistaken. I can freely waltz down to government house and claim all benefits entitled the same as if i was born in the republic. I know this from personal experience and also that of others. Under the terms of the good friday agreement this is allowed. Not that i aim in doing so. In other posts i have made i have asked the question in regards to the ukba eco taking a dim view so to speak and after research i have found that every application has to be taken on its own merit and they cannot. They have to take the application for what it as. That being an Irish citizen residing in the uk bringing his non eea wife to join him. I assume same as if applying for a new visa altogether.In other posts i have made i have also said i could easily sign up to an open university course or join a technical college as a student no problem. It is the fact i am on Disability related benefit i was wanting to know if this could be held against me so to speak. I appreciate that post has went of course numerous times to my original post but the points made where all valid.

[thepool]

I have read the thread.

In my opinion the OP has received good considered advise.

However, the OP does not like the advise given and continues to argue , what appears to be an

un - winnable case.

It is pointless continuing to respond to the OP.

The OP should take his argument to a lawyer!

[mark131v]

I do not particularly care whether you agree or not but for me a person whose entire income including the house they live in being provided by other taxpayers free of charge is already a burden on the state. As I said life is not fair moan all you want but people have given you lots of advice on where to go next, you have chosen not to take any advice and instead to come back arguing that UK Plc should instead re write the rules that lots of other people have to abide by even though you are not actually adding anything to the tax pot, in a perfect world everyone would have everything we want, guess what the world aint perfect and never will be...

[mark131v]

cant be arsed, do what you want OP, that is me out of here....

Edited March 29, 2014 by mark131v

[conns]

Having read through this i think that the point has been missed by most. I would say IMHO that it seems the other members have an issue with this person claiming disability benefits and being disabled. It seems they think the guy is bringing his wife over to live on their own personal money. If they Don't agree with where their taxes are spent then move. We are all duty bound to take care of the less fortunate, after all it could happen to you. I have not seen anyone answer the question asked only as r4b has previously stated assume.

Self-sufficiency requirement

18. Self-sufficient means having sufficient resources so as not to become an unreasonable

burden on the social assistance system of the UK.

19. “Social assistance” means income related benefits, i.e.:-

income support,

income-based jobseeker’s allowance,

employment support allowance (income-related),

housing benefit,

council tax benefit, or

state pension credit

20. Being in receipt of these benefits may affect a person’s right of residence because the

person cannot generally be said to be self-sufficient. However, EEA nationals with a right to

reside are able to claim other benefits such as child benefit. Also, EEA nationals exercising

treaty rights as workers, self-employed, job seekers and workers who are involuntarily

unemployed or inactive due to illness or injury are able to claim certain income-related benefits

without their right of residence being affected.

I WOULD LOOK AT THE LAST PARAGRAPH 20. I THINK THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION. IT SEEMS UPON READING YOU QUALIFY TO BRING YOUR WIFE. CHEERS.

Edited March 29, 2014 by conns

[7by7]

Do you have a link to your source, Conns?

I'm still not sure, though, that the OP can use his reliance upon state benefits, e.g. DLA, child benefit etc., to meet the self sufficiency requirement for him to use the EEA regulations to bring his wife to the UK.

Without a definitive answer from an official source the only way to find out is for his wife to apply and see what happens.

Edit:

From the extract form his wife's settlement visa refusal letter he posted here and here it seems that much of his income comes from income related benefits; which, according to the information you have posted, cannot be used to show self sufficiency.

So, even if he can use his £74 p.w. DLA as evidence of being self sufficient, I think he and his wife will have great difficulty in showing that they will not be an unreasonable burden upon the social assistance system of the UK.

Edited March 30, 2014 by 7by7