Did Thai steal from Khmer culture?

[paz]

At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages".

What ? I'm afraid you know little about European history.

[EASYDOGG]

Actually, name one thing that Thai's have 'invented' that the world is using.

Not only did they not invent anything of worth or value...but their attempt to counterfiet and copy other items and procedures falls way short of the mark.

Sangsom Rum! Available in all good supermarkets.

[MW72]

I am curious. As I am not yet fluent in reading Thai script, is what the OP states in Thai history books?

And beyond that, why should Thais say "thank you?" We mostly know history from what is written and dug up, which is very little. Would the pride still be there if these traditions were from, say, Poughkeepsie?

You don't have to be fluent reading, just ask the Thais you know.

Very very few are even aware of how much of their language and culture originated from elsewhere, nor even that those cultures are much older and richer than their own.

At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages".

I think you mean Persian or Arabic culture. Islam did not start until around 800CE but you are correct that they were far advanced in mathematics, astronomy, science etc than most other cultures possibly with the exception of the Greeks. At that time northern Europeans lived what seemed to be a pretty basic existence but the Vikings still made it to north America centuries before Columbus. If anything the appearance of Islam put the brakes on their quest for knowledge and understanding much the same as the Catholic church clamped down on great scientists like Galileo centuries later. The Chinese were once way ahead of the game also.

Sent from my KFTT using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sdanielmcev]

I am curious. As I am not yet fluent in reading Thai script, is what the OP states in Thai history books?

And beyond that, why should Thais say "thank you?" We mostly know history from what is written and dug up, which is very little. Would the pride still be there if these traditions were from, say, Poughkeepsie?

You don't have to be fluent reading, just ask the Thais you know.

Very very few are even aware of how much of their language and culture originated from elsewhere, nor even that those cultures are much older and richer than their own.

At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages".

Here even university graduates have no clue, nor any interest.

Fact is they're brainwashed to hate the Burmese and Khmer even more than they do the Indians, so even if they were to somehow become informed of the facts they'd never acknowledge that awareness publicly.

But really this "injustice" doesn't really rank compared to those affecting real people here and now, and the OP's indignation on the topic is just as fueled by ignorant obsolete ethnocentricity and nationalism.

If you cannot, or will not answer my question, please don't quote me. And your third paragraph is nonsense.

[Scottythai]

"Ridiculous title to a ridiculous topic.

We are sharing this planet, exchanging ideas and ideals.

Look at any place on the planet and you will see the exchange."

Not rediculous...Thailand is great at taking, and not giving.

Check your history...'Muay Thai' is really 'Muay Khmer'...case in point.

Yes the word "steal" is a little bit harsh in the OP. Have the west "stolen" yoga from India too? And Christianity from Israel? Yes "borrowed" is a better description.

"Thailand is great at taking, and not giving. " - extremely ignorant and unnecessary comment IMO. You have to wonder what the <deleted> the Thai bashers on TV are doing in Thailand, if they seriously hold some of the opinions they espouse? Just go home if you dont like the place or its culture!! I suppose you would also think Thailand should give Isarn back to Laos? Just my opinion but Thailand has given the world the best cuisine ever invented. Khmer food? Very average, and what is good seems to have a Thai influence.

They still use a number of Brahmans to perform holy cleansing rituals at the Thai Kings coronation ceremony as was also done in the Ayuthaya Kingdom before that, from which modern Thailand (Siam) copies most of its rituals. Not sure but I figure the rituals of the Khmer kingdom must have been copied from some early Indian kingdom before that. I saw a video of a Cambodian Kings coronation from last century and many parts of the ritual were exactly the same as a Thai coronation. Obviously all these Kingdoms have similar history and are rooted in Hinduism overlain with Buddhism and all this comes from India. And Thai, especially in the religious sphere, is full of Sanskrit and Pali words which they stole too.

If the OP wants to get pedantic it could be argued that India didn't exist back then as it is a modern British creation within the last 400 years as before they united the subcontinent there were just many kings and rajahs and shahs and emperors controlling many different smaller kingdoms etc.

Well, I wouldn't say that yoga was stolen from Indian for the west does acknowledge its Indian origins.

As far as the British theory who claimed that India had been a merely a collection of warring states/kingdoms who were on guard and fought amongst themselves, I will ditch that theory

Unified India thanks to British rule.

If we read about Indian history it had existed as unified empire (largely) a long time before the British and the Islamic invasions (from Central Asia) as 'Bharat' as mentioned in the Indian epics and later on, under a couple of Indian rulers.

The British white man's burden theory didn't work and fit well with the Indian masses for they found in India, a flourishing civilization, much ahead of its time in both science, arts and medicine.

Hence,, such 'westerners' weren't able to practice the usual civilizing the 'heathens' in case of India.

The success that they were able to achieve among indigenous people of Americas or some Asian nations of Philippines (completely christianized) wasn't possible in India.

Congratulations you come from India.

This thread ought to be closed. It has nothing to do with Thailand.

Funny only thing I hear of Indian culture is when it's 5 guys on a bus with 1 woman. Or when I am having a beer on Sukhumvit and some guy have Rolexes on the street for such a low price. If you want to blow your horn about India fine just do it on Indian VISA dot com.

[Acharn]

"Borrowed" is a far more apt word. Modern Thai Culture can trace it's roots from many sources.

The archaic and ridiculous over-love of uniforms, especially in public office, here to this very day, stems from Plaek Pibulsongkram's admiration of how smart Mussolini's fascists were in their uniforms.

Indeed as above, Thai (and Cambodian) cultures owe a lot to India....good luck ever getting a Thai to admit that debt...especially to their Cambodian neighbours. Some won't even admit the twain were almost a homogeneous entity for more than 6 centuries....

Yes, "borrowed" is a better word. The Khmer Empire was here centuries before the Thai started immigrating, and the Thai elite got their start working in Khmer (Angkhorian) Imperial centers like Lop Buri.

The point about the uniforms is interesting. I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. I can't remember where I read it, but when he was developing his economic program Pridi Phanomyong supposedly said, "The Thai people love uniforms so much, we should make everybody a government employee and allow them to wear uniforms at work." So it would seem to go back a long way.

Plaek Phibulsongkhran did exert a very strong influence over Thai culture that persists to this day. Some of his advisors were ultra nationalistic, and used propaganda to try to inculcate feelings of superiority among Thais. In fact, that's one of the reasons for problems in the South today. One of the things they taught was, "If you're Thai you must be Buddhist."

[Water Buffalo]

"Actually that's a myth. Check any linguistics text book to find that separate families of languages had started and evolved separately."

According to linguists, all the separate language families can be traced back to one single spoken language. I shall find you the details on this should you wish.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Water Buffalo

[sdanielmcev]

"Actually that's a myth. Check any linguistics text book to find that separate families of languages had started and evolved separately."

According to linguists, all the separate language families can be traced back to one single spoken language. I shall find you the details on this should you wish.

Actually, I would like to see what evidence you have past Wikipedia.

[Sheryl]

"Steal" is a rather inflammatory term.

Throughout human history, cultural influences have spread from country to country (and sometimes then back again in revised form).

Indeed many things in Thai culture were initially adapted from the Khmer empire, which itself had adapted influences from both India and China, and the Thais in turn made their own adaptations.

The Thai written alphabet, even, was taken from Khmer (itself an adaptation from Sanskrit) and then simplified (which tells you something about how bad the Khmer alphabet is).

And nowadays, Korean fashions, hairstyles etc are being adapted by the Thais.

So what?

Now it is true that there is a somewhat over-defensive narrative Thais have about themselves and their culture which minimizes or ignores the contributions of other cultures. But that too is not unique to Thailand, or is unique only in its extent and the way in which it is intentionally inculcated in the education system.

[wym]

"Actually that's a myth. Check any linguistics text book to find that separate families of languages had started and evolved separately."

According to linguists, all the separate language families can be traced back to one single spoken language. I shall find you the details on this should you wish.

Actually, I would like to see what evidence you have past Wikipedia.

Speculative to say the least

Linguists Trace European, Asian Languages Back to One Proto-Language | Linguistics | Sci-News.com

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article01066.html

Proto-Human language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Human_language

Linguists Claim There's A New Proto-Language - Business Insider

http://www.businessinsider.com/linguists-claim-theres-a-new-proto-language-2013-5

[tkramer]

I took an Austrian to buy 50% into the company and build it into a 'global brand'.

Red Bull

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Red Bull Type Energy drinks Country of origin Thailand Introduced 1987 Color Amber Variants Original, Sugarfree, Cola, Total Zero, Red Edition, Blue Edition, Silver Edition, F1 Edition Related products Red Bull Cola, Red Bull Energy Shot, Red Bull Sugar-Free, Red Bull Total Zero, Red Bull Racing,Red Bull Racing Team Website www.redbull.com

Red Bull's AH-1F Cobra helicopter

Red Bull's colours on De Havilland Aviation's ex-Royal Navy de Havilland Sea Vixen.

Red Bull is an energy drink sold by Austrian company Red Bull GmbH, created in 1987. In terms of market share, Red Bull is the most popular energy drink in the world, with 5.387 billion cans sold in 2013.^[1][2][3][4]

Austrian entrepreneur Dietrich Mateschitz was inspired by a pre-existing energy drink named Krating Daeng (Thai: กระทิงแดง, Thai pronunciation: [kràtʰiŋ dɛːŋ]), which was first invented and sold in Thailand. He took this idea, modified the ingredients to suit the tastes of westerners,^[5] and, in partnership with Chaleo Yoovidhya, founded Red Bull GmbH in Austria. In Thai, daeng means red, and krating is the reddish-brown muscle-bound bovine called a "gaur", an animal slightly larger than the bison. Red Bull is sold in a tall and slim blue-silver can; in Thailand and in some parts of Asia it is sold in a wider gold can with the name of Krating Daeng or Red Bull Classic.^[6] The two are different products, produced separately.

[Seastallion]

If one goes to India Swastikas can be found carved/painted on and within very ancient buildings ! ( What does that mean? )

Discussions such as this demand a person has some education/knowledge or the debate , as demonstrated here, rapidly declines to the depths of ignorance.

Yes, swastikas are a common symbol of worship in India. Not only are they found in the ancient temples and other monuments, their use continues till date in India and some even paint them on their house walls and furniture.

They have come to symbolize hatred in western word, thanks to Hitler and the genocide but they have a completely different meaning here in our culture.

I think you'll find that the Nazi swastika and the Indian (It's not just Hindu...Parsees use it too) swastika are mirror images, ie one has the arms going clockwise, the other anti-clockwise.

There is a connection to Hitler....He was all about the Aryan race...well the Aryans (Sanskrit Arya) were the Indo-Iranians (The Parsees?) of India. (Parsee=Persian=Iranian). Correct me if I'm wrong.

My Parsee friend painted one on his door step when he moved into a new house.

[casualposter]

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.

It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

This is complete rubbish.

[wym]

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.

It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

This is complete rubbish.

I agree, but the Brits certainly were involved, and the US and UK between them were the ones that determined who got Patani after "liberating" Thailand at the end of WW2.

Should've made it part of Malaya IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patani_(region)#Siamese_Rule

[sms747]

Hey they even 'stole' Buddhism from Sri lanka, terrible!

[Seastallion]

Try to tell even an educated Thai that chillies (chilli peppers) were brought to Asia by the Portugese only about 700 years ago and originated in South America, they will probably think you are misinformed. When I bring up this particular subject and get disbelief, I ask why is black pepper "prik Thai" and chilli just "prik"? Because "prik" is not Thai. Of course, it's only the thinkers that then start to wonder and possibly believe.

I'm not a Thai-basher, but I can see that they can be, generally speaking, quite insular and I can also see that they seem to have been indoctrinated with pro-Thai teachings that are not always factual.

But then, look at Japanese history books taught in schools....the Koreans are quite peeved at how history is distorted.

To the victor goes the right to write history!

[casualposter]

 

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.

It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

This is complete rubbish.

I agree, but the Brits certainly were involved, and the US and UK between them were the ones that determined who got Patani after "liberating" Thailand at the end of WW2.

Should've made it part of Malaya IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patani_(region)#Siamese_Rule

You're confusing Pattani with Saiburi (ie, Kedah). Pattani was a Thai province before, during and after WWII. Neither the British nor the Americans were required to determine its status as its status hadn't changed.

Kedah, however, was "given" to Thailand by the Japanese and then returned to Malaysia after the war.

[JeffreyWitty]

The premiss behind this whole thread is ridiculous!

WHO CARES! (Well, you obviously.)

Cultures change and are often influenced by other cultures. Why does Thailand HAVE to give credit to their cultural roots as much as the Cambodians seem to do? WHY?!?!

So Indians can feel better? Does that give Indians discount points on their next purchase at a Subway Sub Shop?!?!?! No.

You are just trying to find fault with the Thai people - OF WHICH, there are plenty of faults - for no reason other than to hate.

The more time you spend thinking of the past takes away from your time dreaming about the future.

[casualposter]

 

Try to tell even an educated Thai that chillies (chilli peppers) were brought to Asia by the Portugese only about 700 years ago and originated in South America, they will probably think you are misinformed.

They'd be perfectly correct in thinking you're misinformed.

The fact that the Portuguese didn't arrive here until just over 500 years ago might be significant.

Read up on what happened in 1511. Google is your friend.

[paz]

The premiss behind this whole thread is ridiculous!

WHO CARES! (Well, you obviously.)

Cultures change and are often influenced by other cultures. Why does Thailand HAVE to give credit to their cultural roots as much as the Cambodians seem to do? WHY?!?!

So Indians can feel better? Does that give Indians discount points on their next purchase at a Subway Sub Shop?!?!?! No.

You are just trying to find fault with the Thai people - OF WHICH, there are plenty of faults - for no reason other than to hate.

The more time you spend thinking of the past takes away from your time dreaming about the future.

I must say that I disagree 100% with you.

Recognizing the influence or total adoption of foreigner cultures is a sign of civilization and the basis for understanding and fraternity between people.

If to you all is reduced to "who cares" and discount points I'm happy to belong elsewhere.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

Many readers here are imputing motives to the OP's original post. A discussion of India's influences only came out later and suddenly people, whose reading comprehension is suspect, are accusing the OP of whining about the lack of recognition for India's influences on Thai and Khmer cultures. Didn't happen. I would definitely disagree though with the OP's title word "steal" though. Everyone borrows, as was said above. Anyway, for a near perfect summary of the Thai attitude, read the last paragraph of moderator Sheryl's contribution. Here it is:

Now it is true that there is a somewhat over-defensive narrative Thais have about themselves and their culture which minimizes or ignores the contributions of other cultures. But that too is not unique to Thailand, or is unique only in its extent and the way in which it is intentionally inculcated in the education system.

She's somewhat kinder than I would be, but I'll easily accept her carefully chosen words.

[HeavyDrinker]

"Borrowed" is a far more apt word. Modern Thai Culture can trace it's roots from many sources.

The archaic and ridiculous over-love of uniforms, especially in public office, here to this very day, stems from Plaek Pibulsongkram's admiration of how smart Mussolini's fascists were in their uniforms.

Indeed as above, Thai (and Cambodian) cultures owe a lot to India....good luck ever getting a Thai to admit that debt...especially to their Cambodian neighbours. Some won't even admit the twain were almost a homogeneous entity for more than 6 centuries....

"The archaic and ridiculous over-love of uniforms, especially in public office, here to this very day, stems from Plaek Pibulsongkram's admiration of how smart Mussolini's fascists were in their uniforms. "

So it's the love of Mussolini that explains this phenomenon??:

Ludicrous and lame example given as the British Royals are also leaders of the UK's millitary. In the UK we don't have teachers, low paid pen pushers in the local council, station masters, virtually everyone in public office having to wear ridiculous uniforms full of 'ribbons' and then plaster their stern faced photos all over said institution. Severe apologist fail there....

Edited April 1, 2014 by HeavyDrinker

[Donnie Brasco]

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

This is complete rubbish.

Nice thing about bombast of this caliber and depth is that there is absolutely no need to determine who has posted, what his origins are, what evidence he has or whether with his current capabilities he is allowed to post more than 140 characters.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[Donnie Brasco]

I feel there's a not so casual anti-Islamic account of Thailand's (and the rest of the planet's problems) in the works.

Now if we can just get it sorted in 140 characters or less we will have demonstrated to all that "brevity is the soul of racism ;-)

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[willyumiii]

Why use the term "steal"??

People have been learning and borrowing from each other since the beginning of man kind.

One tribe sees another collecting, maintaining and using fire as a tool...

They start doing the same.

Did they steal fire?

or the wheel?

or religious beliefs?

If people did not learn from others and use what they have learned,

I think humans would still be in the stone age!

P.S. Read some Thai history and you will find that borders have fluctuated many times between Siam/ Thailand and the Khmer / Cambodian empires.

There are 1000+ year old Khmer Temple ruins close to where I live..very far from the Cambodian border!

When boundaries move, people, culture and customs don't always move with them.

David Wyatt has written some very comprehensive books on Thai history.

Read one and you will know more Thai history than most Thai people know.

And lighten up...nobody stole anything!

[casualposter]

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

This is complete rubbish.

Nice thing about bombast of this caliber and depth is that there is absolutely no need to determine who has posted, what his origins are, what evidence he has or whether with his current capabilities he is allowed to post more than 140 characters.

Read this. Read it carefully. When you're done, read it again.

You'll learn that to describe the situation in Pattani as a "British legacy ... typical of a departing colonial entity" is complete rubbish.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/reports/6750-a-brief-introduction-to-the-malay-kingdom-of-patani-1-

[willyumiii]

Try to tell even an educated Thai that chillies (chilli peppers) were brought to Asia by the Portugese only about 700 years ago and originated in South America, they will probably think you are misinformed. When I bring up this particular subject and get disbelief, I ask why is black pepper "prik Thai" and chilli just "prik"? Because "prik" is not Thai. Of course, it's only the thinkers that then start to wonder and possibly believe.

I'm not a Thai-basher, but I can see that they can be, generally speaking, quite insular and I can also see that they seem to have been indoctrinated with pro-Thai teachings that are not always factual.

But then, look at Japanese history books taught in schools....the Koreans are quite peeved at how history is distorted.

To the victor goes the right to write history!

They also refuse to believe the papaya came from Central and South America!

Also, I recently read a 200 year old book about Siam ( A Residence in Siam) and it was stated that there were black pepper trees cultivated all over Thailand at the time.

I know my trees and don't think I've seen a black pepper tree in Thailand yet.

Written by an Englishman in the mid 1800 about his stay in Siam.

It was an interesting read if you are non Thai.

Edited April 1, 2014 by willyumiii

[HooHaa]

Ridiculous title to a ridiculous topic.

We are sharing this planet, exchanging ideas and ideals.

Look at any place on the planet and you will see the exchange.

Nobody is against exchange but one must always acknowledge the source of contribution/give credit to the giver.

Taking it from someone and calling it entirely as one's own is downright wrong.

like americans with pizza right?

[HooHaa]

"Borrowed" is a far more apt word. Modern Thai Culture can trace it's roots from many sources.

The archaic and ridiculous over-love of uniforms, especially in public office, here to this very day, stems from Plaek Pibulsongkram's admiration of how smart Mussolini's fascists were in their uniforms.

Indeed as above, Thai (and Cambodian) cultures owe a lot to India....good luck ever getting a Thai to admit that debt...especially to their Cambodian neighbours. Some won't even admit the twain were almost a homogeneous entity for more than 6 centuries....

"The archaic and ridiculous over-love of uniforms, especially in public office, here to this very day, stems from Plaek Pibulsongkram's admiration of how smart Mussolini's fascists were in their uniforms. "

So it's the love of Mussolini that explains this phenomenon??:

Ludicrous and lame example given as the British Royals are also leaders of the UK's millitary. In the UK we don't have teachers, low paid pen pushers in the local council, station masters, virtually everyone in public office having to wear ridiculous uniforms full of 'ribbons' and then plaster their stern faced photos all over said institution. Severe apologist fail there....

British Royals? - surely the current crop are of german descent

[HooHaa]

Actually, name one thing that Thai's have 'invented' that the world is using.

Not only did they not invent anything of worth or value...but their attempt to counterfiet and copy other items and procedures falls way short of the mark.

Red Bull! and errrm.........errrm.........ah okay well I did name 1

bum gun