TRT Targeted For Dissolution

[hammered]

Although we who post on TV have little input in the workings of the Thai government, we have become part of Thailand’s history. In the threads of TV are the chronicled events of Thailand as they unfold as viewed by us. Some of them are minute by minute in the case of the September coup. When I think back to some of the documentary programs that have depicted letters from soldiers the wars, I can’t help but see a parallel here.

At some future date historians will read what we have posted to get a clear picture of this time in the History of Thailand. I must say when I realized that technology has allowed this to happen, I can’t help but wonder how historians will view us.

There is little to cheer us up these days but this post did a great deal to make my day.From someone else it would be a comment of close to comic genius, but with this fellow the incredible truth is that it's meant to be taken entirely seriously.

On a serious note however and back to the topic I have a feeling that there is little comprehension on this forum of the implications of the recent very high level comment on the impending decision.It must as a consequence be quite doubtful whether the dissolution of TRT let alone of the Democrats will happen now.Let's see.

To be honest I have doubted dissolution all along and always felt a few 5-year or whatever bans more the order of the day. After all what TRT did or was accused of doing was undone by the courts so the constitutional democratic system corrected itself and the Dems even if they did what accused of didnt actually do much and again the sytem had corrected itself. Those involved in bunging cash at insignificent parties or conspiring to do it deserve a ban if the court finds them guilty but whole parties - that is tenuous.

From another perspective those demonstrating against the previous regime and those who overthrew it were obviously not looking at uprooting the whole political system. The demos and then the coup were obviously aimed at one man and those connected heavily to him. This all started with a demand the PM stand down.

From another perspective it is also probably the most sensible thing for a quick return to normality to have no dissolutions but a few bannings. The parties can get back to campaigning and realigning and MPs can get back to selling themselves to the highest bidder etc. The Junta can sit back and say we have let the law run its course and a some bad dudes have been removed. It also sets a kind of precedent for dealing with this stuff in the future where powerful bad boys get punished without having to leave the whole political system in a mess.

And finally yes your reading of certain comments strengthens my belief in what I have felt for a long time now. However, one word of caution, this is still a high stakes game with extremists on both sides and so there is still a potential for something to come out of left field.

[Mid]

so we're going to get public affimation that the law is not to be applied equally ????

[younghusband]

And finally yes your reading of certain comments strengthens my belief in what I have felt for a long time now. However, one word of caution, this is still a high stakes game with extremists on both sides and so there is still a potential for something to come out of left field.

A very sound and well made point.

[John K]

Although we who post on TV have little input in the workings of the Thai government, we have become part of Thailand’s history. In the threads of TV are the chronicled events of Thailand as they unfold as viewed by us. Some of them are minute by minute in the case of the September coup. When I think back to some of the documentary programs that have depicted letters from soldiers the wars, I can’t help but see a parallel here.

At some future date historians will read what we have posted to get a clear picture of this time in the History of Thailand. I must say when I realized that technology has allowed this to happen, I can’t help but wonder how historians will view us.

There is little to cheer us up these days but this post did a great deal to make my day.From someone else it would be a comment of close to comic genius, but with this fellow the incredible truth is that it's meant to be taken entirely seriously.

On a serious note however and back to the topic I have a feeling that there is little comprehension on this forum of the implications of the recent very high level comment on the impending decision.It must as a consequence be quite doubtful whether the dissolution of TRT let alone of the Democrats will happen now.Let's see.

To be honest I have doubted dissolution all along and always felt a few 5-year or whatever bans more the order of the day. After all what TRT did or was accused of doing was undone by the courts so the constitutional democratic system corrected itself and the Dems even if they did what accused of didnt actually do much and again the sytem had corrected itself. Those involved in bunging cash at insignificent parties or conspiring to do it deserve a ban if the court finds them guilty but whole parties - that is tenuous.

From another perspective those demonstrating against the previous regime and those who overthrew it were obviously not looking at uprooting the whole political system. The demos and then the coup were obviously aimed at one man and those connected heavily to him. This all started with a demand the PM stand down.

From another perspective it is also probably the most sensible thing for a quick return to normality to have no dissolutions but a few bannings. The parties can get back to campaigning and realigning and MPs can get back to selling themselves to the highest bidder etc. The Junta can sit back and say we have let the law run its course and a some bad dudes have been removed. It also sets a kind of precedent for dealing with this stuff in the future where powerful bad boys get punished without having to leave the whole political system in a mess.

And finally yes your reading of certain comments strengthens my belief in what I have felt for a long time now. However, one word of caution, this is still a high stakes game with extremists on both sides and so there is still a potential for something to come out of left field.

I like what you wrote hammered and the point of view is very respectable. Let me put this in another light.

Lets say you are walking along the street and suddenly you are robbed. As the robber runs away he is caught by the police and your property and money is returned to you. What then of the robber, does he go free now that the crime has been undone or must he now be judged in the courts? Clearly the law has been broken and the accused must face the consequences of his actions.

In the case of this thread I can say only this, Thailand with either take a significant step forward or backward at 1:30 pm May 30.

At least there seems to be a small group of Thais that want and need to do the right thing. They have seen that the countries that show the most prosperity are the ones that do the right thing.

On the other side there is also a significantly greater number of self serving Thais who want to continue along the same old path. I have no doubt they will attempt to sabotage the process. So for now logic says leave things to the few to set the foundation, then when the foundation is set the rest can build on it.

[blaze]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

[Mid]

blaze ,

go back further and your election was unwarrented .....................................

[younghusband]

I suppose for the record it is just worth adding the point the BBC made today, namely that if the TRT is not dissolved the whole rationale for the coup would be undermined and in effect representing (my conclusion not the BBC's) something of a moral victory for Thaksin and his supporters.I don't find it easy to see that poweful interests will find this easy to accept and thus am more persuaded that Hammered's caveat will come into play.Not easy times for sure and a real need for statesmanship and compromise.As usual a signal from the highest level indicates the right way forward.

[Siripon]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

Blaze, where were you last year?

Thaksin showed complete contempt for democracy, he dissolved Parliament rather than face a censure debate by the Democrats. He insisted before any previous censure debate that all TRT MPs must vote in favour of the censured minister.

Do you remember when he cancelled the weekly meetings with journalists by raising a lollipop sign saying 'negative question'?

One of the rules of democracy is accountability, Thaksin ignored question time in Parliament for 5 years, he knew any scrutiny would bring him down.

But he knows in Thailand money talks so he spent his whole career buying people, both the poor and the well placed.

[blaze]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

Blaze, where were you last year?

Thaksin showed complete contempt for democracy, he dissolved Parliament rather than face a censure debate by the Democrats. He insisted before any previous censure debate that all TRT MPs must vote in favour of the censured minister.

Do you remember when he cancelled the weekly meetings with journalists by raising a lollipop sign saying 'negative question'?

One of the rules of democracy is accountability, Thaksin ignored question time in Parliament for 5 years, he knew any scrutiny would bring him down.

But he knows in Thailand money talks so he spent his whole career buying people, both the poor and the well placed.

contempt for democracy: not unique to Thaksin- most polititians having attained power, dread democracy. Everywhere.

censure debate; you must be aware of the role of 'party whip'- the concept of 'party discipline' - in western democracies. And snap elections are a favored tool of polititians in trouble.

journalists: many heads of state will only answer questions posed by journalists they know to be 'friendly'.

Question time: I'm not sure about the rules on this: I do know that cabinet ministers must answer questions- must a PM? Or can he shift the question to the responsible minister?

Buying people: in every democracy in the world- as much politicing goes on in back rooms as on the floor. Granted, it's much more blatant in Thailand than many places- but that wasn't new with Thaksin.

I agree with you that Thaksin was no lover of Democracy- but he was the people's choice. And until the proper channels had been employed to dislodge him- the people deserved what they got. Getting rid of him this way- through a military coup- has set back democracy- and hence the right of the people to govern themselves many decades, I fear.

Maybe I'm wrong- maybe Sept 19th has heralded a new dawn in the struggle for Thai democracy. But I really doubt it.

Please understand this: I could care less about Thaksin- or Abhisit or any of them - it is their constituents- their ultimate 'bosses' who matter. And in Thailand- those bosses- the electorate that is being punished.

[sriracha john]

FOUR DAYS TO GO

Mass rally planned at Sanam Luang on Judgement Day

Groups to use Jatukham talismans to draw protesters to turn up

An anti-coup group vowed Saturday to hold a mass rally at Sanam Luang and warned a political upheaval could take place if two major parties are dissolved in election fraud cases on May 30.

Sudchai Boonchai, a leading member of the Saturday People Against Dictatorship said his group and 12 ally groups would hold the rally at Sanam Luang that day despite pleas from many for all sides to remain calm following concern of His Majesty the King's over possible political crisis.

Suchai said his group would distribute 70,000 Jatukham talismans to draw people to join the rally.

He said if the Thai Rak Thai and Democrat parties are dissolved by the rulings, a political upheaval would definitely take place as the party's supporters would not accept the rulings.

"If the parties are dissolved and their executives are not allowed to form new parties, disturbances will take place and the situation will be uncontrollable," Sudchai said.

He said even if only the party leaders and certain executives and banned from politics, their supporters would not accept it and would definitely cause trouble.

He said supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would think that the Council for National Security wanted to unfairly persecute Thaksin with such a ruling.

But Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont expressed confidence on Saturday there would be no disturbance on May 30 when the rulings in electoral fraud cases are announced.

Speaking during the Poed Ban Phitsanulok programme on Channel 11, Surayud said he believed not many people would come out to demonstrate on that day.

He said he had talked to both rural people and Bangkokians and found out that they would accept the judgement without causing trouble.

"I believe some will definitely be dissatisfied and will come out to express their dissatisfaction but their number will not reach one hundred thousand," Surayud said.

He said the government would be able to control the situation because the International Security Operations Command had been working closely with the Royal Thai Police to make preparations for handling the situation on May 30.

Also on Saturday, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva proposed a joint meeting of the government, CNS and political parties after May 30.

Abhisit said all sides should come together after rulings on the electoral fraud cases on May 30 and discuss how to make the next election clean and fair.

He said political trouble could be averted by leading the country back to democracy so all sides must discuss how to bring the country back to democracy.

He said if political parties reach an agreement during the meetings, their supporters would also accept the agreement and would not try to cause trouble.

The Nation

=========================

Sounds like the Thai Rak Thai group, PTV, will have company for their planned rally.

[sriracha john]

Interesting history for this Sudchai character...

Sudchai Boonchai, a leading member of the Saturday People Against Dictatorship said his group and 12 ally groups would hold the rally at Sanam Luang that day despite pleas from many for all sides to remain calm following concern of His Majesty the King's over possible political crisis.

Sudchai said his group would distribute 70,000 Jatukham talismans to draw people to join the rally.

Purported photo of Surayud's holiday home is fake: NCCC

The Nation, Published on Jan. 19, 2007

The National Counter Corruption Commission will question a man over allegedly false evidence he submitted against Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont and may charge him with perjury.

The man submitted a photograph purporting to be the prime minister's holiday home.

"The picture of what complainant Sudchai Boonchai said was Surayud's Nakhon Ratchasima vacation home is completely different from what graft investigators uncovered after an on-site inspection," commission chairman Panthep Klanarongran said yesterday.

Sudchai submitted a picture of a luxury home complete with swimming pool and "five-star" facilities. He claimed Surayud owned it.

The site visit showed the actual building to be a one-storey bungalow, he said.

===================================================

What perjuries will Sudchai be proclaiming on May 30th?

Edited May 26, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Thai Rak Thai may split into three groups

'Die-hards' under Chaturon and Sudarat, plus off-shoots headed by Suwat and Somsak look likely; Northeast will be key

Thailand is undergoing a re-alignment of power and the Northeast will be a decisive battleground to elect the next coalition government of three to five parties - a sharp contrast to the authoritarian rule of the ousted administration.

If the current party hopping is any indication, the Thai Rak Thai Party is gradually breaking up into several offshoots. This is happening regardless of the outcome of the judicial review on electoral fraud.

Political veterans have started to form new alliances and the once mighty party is slated to take a backseat in politics should the Constitution Tribunal allow it to stay intact.

The emerging political landscape will see several Thai Rak Thai segments become the swing vote to decide the formation of coalition and opposition alliances.

Although their party is virtually history, former government MPs still have close ties with the north-eastern constituents who elect one-third of House seats - a decisive voting block.

Mainstream parties like the Democrats, Chat Thai, Mahachon and Pracharaj have claimed the South, the Central region and the North as their backyards, but their combined efforts have failed to achieve a significant presence in the Northeast.

As things stand, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and Chat Thai Party leader Banharn Silapa-archa are the leading contenders to form the next coalition.

But this will happen only if either one of them can mend fences with the Thai Rak Thai offshoots.

If political animosity persists, the next coalition will face mounting instability and the Democrats might see themselves in opposition once again.

Banharn is known to have successfully executed many political flip-flops, hence his party is expected to smoothly ally with former rivals.

The Thai Rak Thai offshoots are emerging to group around three main factions destined to evolve into new parties.

The first faction is being led by key figures like Thai Rak Thai acting leader Chaturon Chaisang and three party executives: Khunying Sudarat Keyuraphan, Newin Chidchob and Pongthep Thepkanchana.

Should the former ruling party be dismantled for electoral fraud, Chaturon is expected to form and lead a new party for die-hard supporters of populist policies.

His best prospect is to become the next opposition leader if his party can manage to win sufficient votes.

The second faction is under the leadership of political veteran Suwat Liptapanlop. Its key ally is Pinij Charusombat - who is a National Legislative Assembly member - and seen as close to the junta.

Suwat's voting block from Nakhon Ratchasima alone would ensure coalition seats for his faction. He may also emerge as the kingmaker to name the next prime minister should Abhisit or Banharn falter in forming the coalition alliance.

Under this scenario, doubts linger that Suwat may cast his decisive vote to support a prime minister who has not run in the general election.

The third faction is now known as the Matchima Group under the leadership of Somsak Thepsuthin. It has evolved from a Thai Rak Thai splinter - the Wang Nam Yom faction.

Somsak's original strongholds are located in the lower northern provinces and Matchima's clout has been enhanced by support from several cliques of former north-eastern MPs.

Many of these MPs used to be members of the New Aspiration Party under the leadership of former prime minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh.

They still have hopes of reviving their old banner and may part company with Somsak if Matchima fails to evolve into a major party.

Somsak's trump card will be if he manages to install former deputy prime minister Somkid Jatusripitak as the party's leader. If the wooing of Somkid fails, Matchima might become only a minor voice in politics.

Waiting in the wings to welcome splinter groups are Sanan Kachornprasart of Mahachon and Snoh Thienthong of Pracharaj.

Key political players, like Abhisit, Banharn, Suwat, Chaturon, Somsak, Sanan and Snoh, have worked together before and witnessed so many ups and downs in their past alliances.

They are flag bearers to ensure that democratic rule moves forward, but if the new power alignments fail to take off, then the political prospects look bleak and the military will become a permanent fixture in politics as a quick fix for volatility.

The Nation

UPDATE

Former ruling party members to reapply if party dissolved

BANGKOK - Acting Thai Rak Thai deputy leader Sudarat Keyuraphan said Saturday that members of the former ruling party would be asked after the May 30 ruling -- when the Constitution Tribunal issues its verdict on the fate of the party -- whether they will continue working with the party or leave.

Mrs. Sudarat, former agriculture and cooperatives minister in the government ousted by coup d'etat last September, said she was confident that her party was not guilty and believed in justice.

Members of the party and its members in the House of Representatives (Lower House) will not take action if the party is ordered dissolved by Constitution Tribunal, she said, especially after His Majesty the King spoke on his concerns over the current political climate in the country on Thursday.

She said questionaires would be distributed to former House of Representatives members of the party whether or not they would continue working with the party. If they wished to continue, she said, the former parliamentarians would have to re-enrol.

Mrs. Sudarat said she would not abandon the party founded by deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

She urged both the Council for National Security and the military-installed government to work seriously for the country by inviting all parties concerned for discussions and finding ways for the people to accept the draft constitution which could pave the way to holding a general election as soon as possible.

- MCOT

[Tony Clifton]

PTV rally organiser Jatuporn Phromphan said he would mobilise the crowds to submit a petition to His Majesty the King to dissolve the junta if the Thai Rak Thai Party was dissolved by the court order.

This is exactly what happens after each and every intervention from the Palace, the TRT bunch faithfully forget about it within hours and come up with such ridiculous statements.

[Abrak]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

Blaze, where were you last year?

Thaksin showed complete contempt for democracy, he dissolved Parliament rather than face a censure debate by the Democrats. He insisted before any previous censure debate that all TRT MPs must vote in favour of the censured minister.

Do you remember when he cancelled the weekly meetings with journalists by raising a lollipop sign saying 'negative question'?

One of the rules of democracy is accountability, Thaksin ignored question time in Parliament for 5 years, he knew any scrutiny would bring him down.

But he knows in Thailand money talks so he spent his whole career buying people, both the poor and the well placed.

Blaze what you say is spot on both on this and your posts above..

[hammered]

FOUR DAYS TO GO

Mass rally planned at Sanam Luang on Judgement Day

Groups to use Jatukham talismans to draw protesters to turn up

An anti-coup group vowed Saturday to hold a mass rally at Sanam Luang and warned a political upheaval could take place if two major parties are dissolved in election fraud cases on May 30.

Sudchai Boonchai, a leading member of the Saturday People Against Dictatorship said his group and 12 ally groups would hold the rally at Sanam Luang that day despite pleas from many for all sides to remain calm following concern of His Majesty the King's over possible political crisis.

Suchai said his group would distribute 70,000 Jatukham talismans to draw people to join the rally.

He said if the Thai Rak Thai and Democrat parties are dissolved by the rulings, a political upheaval would definitely take place as the party's supporters would not accept the rulings.

"If the parties are dissolved and their executives are not allowed to form new parties, disturbances will take place and the situation will be uncontrollable," Sudchai said.

He said even if only the party leaders and certain executives and banned from politics, their supporters would not accept it and would definitely cause trouble.

He said supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would think that the Council for National Security wanted to unfairly persecute Thaksin with such a ruling.

But Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont expressed confidence on Saturday there would be no disturbance on May 30 when the rulings in electoral fraud cases are announced.

Speaking during the Poed Ban Phitsanulok programme on Channel 11, Surayud said he believed not many people would come out to demonstrate on that day.

He said he had talked to both rural people and Bangkokians and found out that they would accept the judgement without causing trouble.

"I believe some will definitely be dissatisfied and will come out to express their dissatisfaction but their number will not reach one hundred thousand," Surayud said.

He said the government would be able to control the situation because the International Security Operations Command had been working closely with the Royal Thai Police to make preparations for handling the situation on May 30.

Also on Saturday, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva proposed a joint meeting of the government, CNS and political parties after May 30.

Abhisit said all sides should come together after rulings on the electoral fraud cases on May 30 and discuss how to make the next election clean and fair.

He said political trouble could be averted by leading the country back to democracy so all sides must discuss how to bring the country back to democracy.

He said if political parties reach an agreement during the meetings, their supporters would also accept the agreement and would not try to cause trouble.

The Nation

=========================

Sounds like the Thai Rak Thai group, PTV, will have company for their planned rally.

Interesting incentive to attract people to a so called political rally.

Whatever one has thought of PAD or PTV or White Dove etc, to date they have all kept organizing their rallies to a political issue. This when Saturday comes mob seem to have gioven up all pretence on that and linked their rally to something that is already highly controversial and has led to rampaging and death. It is not a positive move at all and delinks anything this group now tries to do from having any idealistic political aim. Things are getting pretty low right now.

[SiamSquare123]

im surprised the junta is allowing mass rallies? how does that help them?

what happened to 5 people not being able to meet together?

[John K]

CNS steps up security ahead of judgements

New blueprint anticipates mass rallies by Thai Rak Thai followers if the party is dissolved for electoral fraud

The Council for National Security (CNS) has adopted a new security blueprint for Bangkok and nearby provinces ahead of Wednesday's tribunal verdicts on the fate of the country's two major political parties, sources said.

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the CNS chairman, issued the order last week for all top security officials in charge of the capital to follow what is called the "Pitak 1" security plan in dealing with potential unrest. CNS sources believe that the previous government is planning to trigger unrest if the Constitution Tribunal rules to disband a major political party.

Both Thai Rak Thai and the Democrat parties could be dissolved in separate verdicts due on Wednesday. The "Pitak 1" security blueprint has replaced the "Pattapee 149" plan used since the September 19 coup last year that ousted the previous Thaksin administration.

"Pitak 1 is designed to cope with mass support of one of the major parties which could be dissolved. The situation could be very delicate in coming days since we have to deal with large numbers of people," said one of the CNS sources.

"We have to do our best to avoid making mistakes since that could spread the unrest further. These masses may also stage rallies to oppose the CNS and the current government.

"We received reports that these supporters, including those who have been hired to cause unrest, have been travelling into the capital from places in the North and Northeast. These people could join groups of taxi drivers and motorcycle taxis in Bangkok and nearby provinces to cause trouble. They reportedly plan to wear red shirts as the symbol to fight, starting tomorrow."

Meanwhile, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday suggested a meeting of all parties concerned to sort out the political turmoil and map out a clear plan for the next general election.

"After the two verdicts on electoral fraud, I think an independent organisation should invite all sides, including the government, the CNS and all key politicians, to pledge a free and fair election," he said.

Abhisit said he expected such a meeting to ease the political volatility.

Although the Democrats would respect the judicial decisions on May 30 and accept them with calm, post-verdict anxiety might arise due to unforeseen consequences, he said.

"I think it is a good idea for the CNS to pledge no repeat of military intervention and for the government to chart a clear course for elections," he said.

"If every political leader, and their supporters, agree to steer the country toward elections, then I believe the situation will not spiral out of control," he added.

Commenting on the political jitters, Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said some people might not be happy with the verdicts though they were not likely to join unruly protests.

"Regardless of the outcome of the two electoral-fraud cases, some people will be dissatisfied with the judicial decisions, but I don't think a large number of protesters will take to the streets," he said.

He said parties and their supporters should uphold the outcome of the judicial review, otherwise society would turn lawless. "We talk about justice and the rule of law but if we refuse to abide by a court ruling, then I don't know what justice means," he said.

Thai Rak Thai Party executive Sudarat Keyuraphan said she believed justice would prevail, although she could not predict the ruling on her party.

"If, in the worst scenario, the party is found guilty and ordered disbanded, we are willing to accept our fate, and no party members and supporters will act in defiance of the court order," she said.

She said the party would invite its loyal members to chart a future course if faced with a dissolution, adding that punished party executives would work behind the scenes to help carry on party activities under a new banner.

She revealed that acting party leader Chaturon Chaisang had had a telephone conversation with ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra to plan for political contingencies.

PM's Office Minister Thirapat Serirangsan said the judicial decisions on electoral fraud would not have any impact on the referendum for the new constitution.

Thirapat also voiced confidence that authorities could keep the situation under control if PTV, a pro-Thaksin group, decided to go ahead with its plan for a rally at the Royal Plaza coinciding with the verdicts.

Chiang Mai Provincial Police also stepped up road checks in Saraphi district yesterday and they will continue to do so through next Sunday in order to discourage villagers from joining the planned protests in the capital. Provincial Police Region 3 has deployed similar measures in eight northeastern provinces.

Activist Chanapat na Nakhon alleged that PTV protest organisers were coordinating with Thaksin's military allies from the Pre-Cadet Class 10 to incite unruly protests on Thursday following the verdicts.

"I think pro-Thaksin protesters will try to provoke anti-riot forces to fire the first bullet, triggering bloodshed," he said.

Anti-coup activist Sudchai Boonchai said he expected tens of thousands of protesters to rally peacefully on Wednesday during the verdict session.

He said he planned to hand out 70,000 Jatukam Ramathep amulets at Sanam Luang, the rally site.

PTV rally organiser Jatuporn Phromphan said he would mobilise the crowds to submit a petition to His Majesty the King to dissolve the junta if the Thai Rak Thai Party was dissolved by the court order.

Source: The Nation

[John K]

PTV rally organiser Jatuporn Phromphan said he would mobilise the crowds to submit a petition to His Majesty the King to dissolve the junta if the Thai Rak Thai Party was dissolved by the court order.

This is exactly what happens after each and every intervention from the Palace, the TRT bunch faithfully forget about it within hours and come up with such ridiculous statements.

I agree it is one of the more thought out statements they had. I am waiting for them to say that they will hold their breath.

I can’t say if this will be a big rally or not, but I have no doubt Thaksin is pouring money into this. I have no doubt the Judges are being tempted big time with huge amounts of money. If the TRT go down on May 30, it is the lynch pin for Thaksin leaving only one other option to avoid jail. That last card can only be a coup.

[sriracha john]

If they get busted, will the Thai Rak Thai executives flounce off in a queenly huff and shout: "Unleash the pachyderms!" Or if found innocent, alight at the nearest five-star hotel and say: "Nice one, gentlemen. Well paid. New Mercs all round."

But if limo-loads of politicians are scuttled off into political oblivion, who have we got left? A handful of veteran politicians who don't need electing but do require a nurse and some screens.

No matter what happens on Wednesday, there will be someone who knew it would.

- The Nation

[Mid]

Abhisit proposes joint meeting to discuss election holding

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva Saturday proposed a joint meeting of the government, Council for National Security and political parties after May 30.

Abhisit said all sides should come together after rulings on the electoral fraud cases on May 30 and discuss how to make the next election clean and fair.

He said if political parties reach an agreement during the meetings, their supporters would also accept the agreement and would not try to cause trouble.

The Nation

confidence misplaced ???

proposed meeting may be a tad difficult to achieve with the parties disbanded ??

[sriracha john]

Suchai said his group would distribute 70,000 Jatukham talismans to draw people to join the rally.

He said even if only the party leaders and certain executives and banned from politics, their supporters would not accept it and would definitely cause trouble.

=========================

Sounds like the Thai Rak Thai group, PTV, will have company for their planned rally.

Interesting incentive to attract people to a so called political rally.

This when Saturday comes mob seem to have given up all pretence on that and linked their rally to something that is already highly controversial and has led to rampaging and death. It is not a positive move at all and delinks anything this group now tries to do from having any idealistic political aim.

Amulet craze 'contrary to Buddhism'

Revered monk Phra Maha Wudhijaya Vajiramedhi said on Saturday that the Jatukarm talisman craze reflects a thirst for an easy windfall and deviates from the Lord Buddha's teachings. He minced no words, blaming the media and monks for fuelling the amulet fever. The monk, who currently teaches at Mahachulalongkornrajavidyala University, said: "The three refuges a Buddhist should seek are the Lord Buddha, his teachings and his ministers [monks]. "The rightful way to make a living is to use our brain and two hands, not the talisman," said the monk, better known under his pen name of W. Vajiramedhi. The popular amulets are said to be wealth-spinners, and are rolled out with extreme and oddball labels such as Kote Ruay Maha Sarn (Enormously Super Rich) and Ruay Mai Mee Het Phon (Rich Without Reasons).

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=119012

==================================

The talismans are appropriately named for Thaksin wannabes.

Edited May 27, 2007 by sriracha john

[hammered]

Abhisit proposes joint meeting to discuss election holding

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva Saturday proposed a joint meeting of the government, Council for National Security and political parties after May 30.

Abhisit said all sides should come together after rulings on the electoral fraud cases on May 30 and discuss how to make the next election clean and fair.

He said if political parties reach an agreement during the meetings, their supporters would also accept the agreement and would not try to cause trouble.

The Nation

confidence misplaced ???

proposed meeting may be a tad difficult to achieve with the parties disbanded ??

Its hard to work out what is going on when you hearstuff like that. Maybe it indicates a nondis. Maybe it indicates parties have already sorted out their contingencies to reform straight after a dis. Maybe it indicates a complete get of for all. maybe it indicates a play by parties to show how reasonable they are before the dis decision is made. We will find out in a few days. In the meantime I am sure speculation will go thorugh the roof

[hammered]

This piece runs through the usual scenarios and seems to suggest a few bans on politcos and no dissolution is the way ahead:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=825382007

[John K]

Thailand braced for leap into political unknown

By Nopporn Wong-Anan BANGKOK (Reuters)

- Thailand is braced for a leap into the unknown this week as a court decides whether to disband the country's top two parties and ban their leaders from politics for breaching election laws.

Fears are widespread the verdicts on Wednesday may escalate the coup-prone nation's political uncertainty into chaos.

Those fears were laid out starkly by King Bhumibol Adulyadej when he summoned top judges to warn them whatever decisions the Constitutional Tribunal made would upset somebody.

"Whatever the verdict will be, it will bring damage to the country. Whatever direction it will take, it will be erroneous," he said in a 15-minute speech to the judges.

The words of the monarch, who is genuinely revered, prompted the Thai Rak Thai (Thais Love Thais) party of ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and the Democrat Party to promise restraint.

"There will be people who are unhappy with the verdicts and will protest on the street, but I don't think there will be hundreds of thousands," Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said.

But Surayud shortened a trip to China to be ready to handle the outcome of the verdicts, armed with an emergency decree empowering him to deploy troops on the streets and impose curfews.

The army has soldiers and tanks ready for action as the media count down to what they call "Judgement Day."

Akaratorn Chularat, one of the nine members of the Constitutional Tribunal, said the king's speech would not sway its decisions, but refused to say more despite media commentators coming up with as many as seven possible verdicts.

Everyone is waiting anxiously in the dark.

"You should ask fortune tellers or parrots," said economist Pasuk Phongpaichit, an author of several books on Thailand, when asked what the mostly likely outcome was.

RURAL SUPPORT

Thaksin, who is living in exile in London and making frequent protestations he is done with the pursuit of office to general disbelief back home, and other top politicians could be banned from politics for five years.

Few doubt that the generals, who say they staged last September's coup to prevent a bloodbath as a street campaign against Thaksin mounted, want him out of politics ahead of a general election Surayud has promised in December.

However, banning the telecommunications billionaire would outrage the millions of people in the countryside who gave him two election landslide victories and still see him as the only politician who really cares about them.

Many analysts believe the generals want that verdict to complete their coup against Thaksin, whom they accused of abuse of power and presiding over rampant corruption, charges he denies.

If Thai Rak Thai were not disbanded, the justification for ousting Thaksin would be undermined, they say.

About 170 members of the executive committees of Thai Rak Thai and the Democrats face five-year bans from politics, if the tribunal rules that both parties violated election laws in an inconclusive general election last year which was annulled later.

If they are removed from the political area, the question is who would emerge from the elections as Thailand's new leadership, assuming they happen with opposition widespread to a new draft constitution due to go to a referendum in September.

Speculation has focused on a trio of aged former prime ministers with less than stellar reputations.

"Basically, elections would be meaningless without those politicians," Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva, one of those who could be barred.

Independent political analyst Prayad Hongtongkhum said hopes now rested on the Constitutional Tribunal banning a relatively small number of individuals and leaving the parties intact.

"Just imagine, Thailand without those politicians, many of whom have served the country for years, how badly the nation will be battered" if all 170 were banned, he said.

[John K]

Looking ahead and I know it is past the life expectance of this near year old thread;

assuming everyone meaning the Democrats and the TRT are sent packing what would be the fate of Thailand. May are predicting doom and gloom if that happens. However I see another possibility. I see the emergence of a new group of politicians. Certainly they will not be as expert as the outgoing politicians but I think they would be more open to new ways and not as set in the old.

In a way it makes me think of the Mt. St. Helens eruption that destroyed the forest for miles around and covered it with ash. After things had settled down people went into the area and noted new growth emerging through the ash.

I don’t see this as any different however there will be a downturn for a short time. To compensate for that the thinking would be to be inviting companies, and making it easier and not more difficult as the trend is now. That would provide a form of supplemental prosperity allowing the new politicians time to get acclimated.

[Mid]

If Thai Rak Thai were not disbanded, the justification for ousting Thaksin would be undermined, they say.

there's the guts of it ...................................

[yoshiwara]

There is one supreme consideration for the decision next week: Toxin must not return to any semblance of political power and they are determined to eliminate the Dracula prancing around in the border shadows. TRT provides potential oxygen and blood supplies. Affixing the stake through the heart has been a little difficult but he will not prevail. This is a zero-sum game.

[Siripon]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

Blaze, where were you last year?

Thaksin showed complete contempt for democracy, he dissolved Parliament rather than face a censure debate by the Democrats. He insisted before any previous censure debate that all TRT MPs must vote in favour of the censured minister.

Do you remember when he cancelled the weekly meetings with journalists by raising a lollipop sign saying 'negative question'?

One of the rules of democracy is accountability, Thaksin ignored question time in Parliament for 5 years, he knew any scrutiny would bring him down.

But he knows in Thailand money talks so he spent his whole career buying people, both the poor and the well placed.

contempt for democracy: not unique to Thaksin- most polititians having attained power, dread democracy. Everywhere.

censure debate; you must be aware of the role of 'party whip'- the concept of 'party discipline' - in western democracies. And snap elections are a favored tool of polititians in trouble.

journalists: many heads of state will only answer questions posed by journalists they know to be 'friendly'.

Question time: I'm not sure about the rules on this: I do know that cabinet ministers must answer questions- must a PM? Or can he shift the question to the responsible minister?

Buying people: in every democracy in the world- as much politicing goes on in back rooms as on the floor. Granted, it's much more blatant in Thailand than many places- but that wasn't new with Thaksin.

I agree with you that Thaksin was no lover of Democracy- but he was the people's choice. And until the proper channels had been employed to dislodge him- the people deserved what they got. Getting rid of him this way- through a military coup- has set back democracy- and hence the right of the people to govern themselves many decades, I fear.

Maybe I'm wrong- maybe Sept 19th has heralded a new dawn in the struggle for Thai democracy. But I really doubt it.

Please understand this: I could care less about Thaksin- or Abhisit or any of them - it is their constituents- their ultimate 'bosses' who matter. And in Thailand- those bosses- the electorate that is being punished.

Please give me an example of a western government that dissolved Parliament after one year with a majority of 374 MPs out of 500. Not the standard snap election.

Party whips are a common phenomenon but more than that TRT MPs were forbidden to table motions of their own. 'We are Thaksin's employees, not representatives of the people ' was a common complaint with TRT MPs.

Question time- The PM is supposed to answer questions posed to him, it's called political etiquette. Thaksin ignored them because he couldn't answer them, he always had a deputy to reply.

The people employed the proper channels- a censure debate by the Democrats, but Thaksin knew if he held a snap election the Democrats stood no chance because:

1. They had little cash , just 14 months since the last election.

2. Thaksin controlled all TV stations and Ministries, departments in charge of elections- did you read what happened to the last Election Commission members, dismissed and facing prosecution for acting in favour of Thaksin?

To be a democrat you must be accountable.

[SiamSquare123]

what about galop? what does he mean?

[blaze]

The most greivous political sin that was committed in this entire process -and the one that should warrant dissolution of the guilty - was the refusal of the Democrats to participate in the election. By so doing they denied the public a legitimate method of unseating the TRT. They spurned the democratic process. And all that ensued after that was rendered meaningless in terms of sound practice. The election was not an exercise in democracy- the day the Dems pulled out- what little was left of democracy in Thailand died.

In a democracy political parties don't exist solely to assume power. They exist to represent their consituents in a parliament. The party belongs to the people- not the people to the party. And in a party system, for the second largest party to refuse to participate, effectively destroys the whole exercise.

It doesn't matter what 'every body knew'...Until courts decided otherwise, the TRT governnment was the legitimate government of the country. Like it or not!

Democracy operates on a system of rules- and one of the rules is that change in government be accomplished only through elections. When the second largest political party in the land refuses to honor its obligation to provide a voice for a significant portion of the voters, that party, or at the very least, those who made the decision, have forfeited their right to participate in future elections.

From the first chorus of Thaksin Awk Bie- how could this have ended differently? To demand investigation of the PM's business dealings is legitimate. In fact, responsible. To demand impeachment is legitimate. But to demand that he simply quit the job that he was elected to do, showed a total contempt for democracy. And that contempt was echoed by the leadership of the Democrats. They might as well had said- we don't like this game any more- lets play the old one and see how that turns out.

Blaze, where were you last year?

Thaksin showed complete contempt for democracy, he dissolved Parliament rather than face a censure debate by the Democrats. He insisted before any previous censure debate that all TRT MPs must vote in favour of the censured minister.

Do you remember when he cancelled the weekly meetings with journalists by raising a lollipop sign saying 'negative question'?

One of the rules of democracy is accountability, Thaksin ignored question time in Parliament for 5 years, he knew any scrutiny would bring him down.

But he knows in Thailand money talks so he spent his whole career buying people, both the poor and the well placed.

contempt for democracy: not unique to Thaksin- most polititians having attained power, dread democracy. Everywhere.

censure debate; you must be aware of the role of 'party whip'- the concept of 'party discipline' - in western democracies. And snap elections are a favored tool of polititians in trouble.

journalists: many heads of state will only answer questions posed by journalists they know to be 'friendly'.

Question time: I'm not sure about the rules on this: I do know that cabinet ministers must answer questions- must a PM? Or can he shift the question to the responsible minister?

Buying people: in every democracy in the world- as much politicing goes on in back rooms as on the floor. Granted, it's much more blatant in Thailand than many places- but that wasn't new with Thaksin.

I agree with you that Thaksin was no lover of Democracy- but he was the people's choice. And until the proper channels had been employed to dislodge him- the people deserved what they got. Getting rid of him this way- through a military coup- has set back democracy- and hence the right of the people to govern themselves many decades, I fear.

Maybe I'm wrong- maybe Sept 19th has heralded a new dawn in the struggle for Thai democracy. But I really doubt it.

Please understand this: I could care less about Thaksin- or Abhisit or any of them - it is their constituents- their ultimate 'bosses' who matter. And in Thailand- those bosses- the electorate that is being punished.

Please give me an example of a western government that dissolved Parliament after one year with a majority of 374 MPs out of 500. Not the standard snap election.

Party whips are a common phenomenon but more than that TRT MPs were forbidden to table motions of their own. 'We are Thaksin's employees, not representatives of the people ' was a common complaint with TRT MPs.

Question time- The PM is supposed to answer questions posed to him, it's called political etiquette. Thaksin ignored them because he couldn't answer them, he always had a deputy to reply.

The people employed the proper channels- a censure debate by the Democrats, but Thaksin knew if he held a snap election the Democrats stood no chance because:

1. They had little cash , just 14 months since the last election.

2. Thaksin controlled all TV stations and Ministries, departments in charge of elections- did you read what happened to the last Election Commission members, dismissed and facing prosecution for acting in favour of Thaksin?

To be a democrat you must be accountable.

Excellent reply. And I fully agree- Thaksin was no lover of democracy- (and on several occasions he said as much). Not even within his own party. (recall his saying that he is the gov't and the cabinet, simply his helpers- and of course the stupid notion of CEO PM...) and he would use the dirtiest tactics he could get away with--- but these tactics were, I think, legal.

If his MPs did not take the initiative to revolt (and some were jumping ship well before the coup) then it would be the job of the party supporters to demand a revolt: of course that's highly idealistic in the Thai context- but nonetheless- it was the first time that Thais have dealt with a truly 'modern' (read, sleazy, disciplined- if you like) political party. And I am confident that in time they would have adjusted. Sooner or later, they will have to deal with this kind of polititian. Democratically.

I think that if you look at any modern democracy- you will find the same types of allegations cropping up- that the current gang of crooks has wrecked democracy. And buddy, I got the 'facts' to prove it- (in America, the christian right - the Chomsky (now Moore) left)- yet somehow, the process stumbles on. Slowly the people come to learn that they own the party- the party doesn't own them. They come to realize that they can initiate change not only within the state, but within the party that controls the state. Thailand was a long way from that point - but it's much farther now.

You will, no doubt, bring up the lack of checks and balances- and there I have also to agree with you. But again, the proper functioning of these depends upon the desire of the population to have them function. And once the population understands that the country belongs to them and not to the polititians, I believe that slowly- these too would have evolved.

Siripon: the outrage in many quarters, against Thaksin was, I think, justified. But to entrust the transition to a more open form of democracy to the most anti- (or at least 'non' democratic institution in the land will be eventually seen as a terrible mistake. It took Mexico 71 years to get rid of PRI. And it could take that long in Thailand. But sooner or later, these growing pains are going to have to be allowed.