Light Timer won't Rotate

[Thailaw]

I had 4 outside lights on a single circuit. A guy came and added 4 lights to the circuit and installed a Panasonic hard-wired timer. There had been an on/off switch, but he removed that. The Panasonic timer did not rotate and is fixed at the same time. The manual switch works to turn the lights on and off, so it is getting power. Thinking the timer was bad even though it is brand new, I replaced it today. Same problem with the new timer -- the timer does not rotate and it is stuck at the same time when I installed it. The lights come on when the manual switch is turned. Unlikely that two new timers are both bad, so I am thinking that the voltage may be low/weak or something else is wrong with the circuit wiring, even though the lights come on. There are only 2 wires to connect to the timer, one red "hot" wire and one white "load" wire, not 4 wires, as I expected. There is a power frequency switch, and it is set to 50 Hz. The 8 lights are 5v fluorescent bulbs, so there is a 40w load on the circuit. Any ideas as to what might be wrong and how to correct it? Thanks,

Edited April 14, 2014 by Thailaw

[Crossy]

Firstly are you quite sure it's only two wire? Do you have a type number?

Try replacing one of the lamps with a regular tungsten incandescent, the electronic lamps may not be pulling enough current in the 'off' state to operate the timer.

Do the instructions for the timer mention a minimum load?

[Thailaw]

Firstly are you quite sure it's only two wire? Do you have a type number?

Try replacing one of the lamps with a regular tungsten incandescent, the electronic lamps may not be pulling enough current in the 'off' state to operate the timer.

Do the instructions for the timer mention a minimum load?

The light switch was connected with only 2 wires, one red, one white -- I assume that the switch "breaks" the hot wire and the ground passes straight through to the lights, which works for a light switch. When the switch is removed, there are only these two wires to connect to the timer. The timer has four ports for connecting the power and load wires. The guy that installed the timer, put the red wire on the S1 power port and the white wire on the L1 load port. I repeated this when I replaced the timer. The wiring instructions for the timer show power in (S1) and out (S2) and load in (L1) and out (L2). Perhaps this set-up provides continuous power to run the timer, yes? If yes, how can I "fix" it, as I only have 2 wires to work with? Do I need to go back to the junction box and run new wire (hot and ground) in and out of the timer and on to the lights? The diameter of the conduit is not large enough for 2 wires.

How can the lights be pulling any current when they are off?

I see no minimum load specified.

Thanks.

[Crossy]

A tungsten lamp has a very low resistance when off, the timer draws only a tiny current to run it, far too small to light the lamp. An electronic lamp may not draw enough (or any) quiescent current in the off state.

This is a known problem with 2-wire PIR switches and CFL lamps, they don't work reliably (or even at all).

Why not try a regular lamp in one position, it cannot hurt can it?

Whoa, just read your post again, are you saying that the timer instructions show 4 wires but you only have two connected? Are we surprised it doesn't work?

Fix is easy, run the required 4 wires, if you can't get them down the tube put the timer where you can wire it correctly.

EDIT. If you can get one thin wire down the tube you may be able to make it work be connecting S2 to a neutral at the light. S2 and L2 are probably actually connected together inside the timer.

[Thailaw]

Firstly are you quite sure it's only two wire? Do you have a type number?

........................

Do the instructions for the timer mention a minimum load?

[Crossy]

Ah-ha, a 4-wire timer.

You see the little circle with an "M" in it, that's the timer motor.

In that case my suggestion of running a neutral to the S2 connection will make it work.

[Thailaw]

Ah-ha, a 4-wire timer.

You see the little circle with an "M" in it, that's the timer motor.

In that case my suggestion of running a neutral to the S2 connection will make it work.

Understand. Thanks.

Could I possibly splice the white L1 wire and also connect it to S2? That would, I think, give me the ground for the motor, i.e., can the wire carrying the current for the lights also be used as the ground for the motor? Will that set-up burn up the motor when the timer is "ON"? An electrician on the internet described connecting a 4 wire timer to red and black wires when the switch was removed, but the explanation was confusing and there were too many wire colors that i don't have -- "connect the black wire to the green wire...."

Edited April 14, 2014 by Thailaw

[Crossy]

Nope, S2 needs a NEUTRAL, not a switched live or a ground.

This 'connect black wire to green wire' instruction (mostly I see it on US websites) means absolutely nothing, the electricity doesn't know what colour the insulation is! You could wire your whole house in pink wire (look in a UK defence system) and it would work just fine, fun fault-finding mind.

[Thailaw]

Nope, S2 needs a NEUTRAL, not a switched live or a ground.

This 'connect black wire to green wire' instruction (mostly I see it on US websites) means absolutely nothing, the electricity doesn't know what colour the insulation is! You could wire your whole house in pink wire (look in a UK defence system) and it would work just fine, fun fault-finding mind.

Thanks. I think that, even if the L1/S2 splice did work, it would defeat the timer and leave my lights running 24/7 -- scratch that.

Your suggestion running a neutral wire to the S2 connection is a good one and I can make it work. And 1 wire will certainly fit in the conduit. Thanks for the help,

I think that the internet electrician was just using the wire colors to help guide the wire connections for the guy asking the question. I assume that black, red, white and green are the standard colors for wiring (at least in the US) when 4 wire connections are used. Unfortunately, I have screw ports and not wires and no color coding, so what he suggested wasn't much help. And there were also some "connect the two wires" without being very clear as to which two wires he was talking about. I only referenced this internet discussion to suggest that there may be a way to connect the 4 wires to 2, but i am not sure, and i have not been able to find the site again in the few minutes I was willing to look. Your suggestion identifies and solves the problem I am having, so the rest is purely academic at this point. Thanks again; much appreciated.

[Langsuan Man]

Is this the timer that you have ? Pretty sure it is since it was the only hard wired timer that I could find

The limitations appear to be how many wires can physically be connected to the power (in) and load (out) connection terminals. I think that the OP is getting too hung up on the color codes and just needs to find the "hot" wires to connect the timer and then insure that the wires going to the lights are also "hot"

The only thing is that Panasonic does make a more expensive model that uses a battery that keeps the time in case of a power outage and if the OP has that model, a defective battery could be part of the problem

[cmsally]

Sorry to butt in on this thread. But can anyone recommend a timer that is ant proof. Have had about 3 of these things now and once the black ants get in there (seems to be their favourite place) the thing stops working.

Its not a Panasonic - it does have a back up battery. I will look at the brand.

Anyone else having this problem?

[Langsuan Man]

Sorry to butt in on this thread. But can anyone recommend a timer that is ant proof. Have had about 3 of these things now and once the black ants get in there (seems to be their favourite place) the thing stops working.

Its not a Panasonic - it does have a back up battery. I will look at the brand.

Anyone else having this problem?

I don't have the problem with the three Panasonics that I have since they have a clear plastic cover that snaps on to the front, making the whole unit sealed from moisture and the critters

[wayned]

It's almost impossible to keep those little black ants out of anything electric, they love to be electrocuted. My counter top grill stopped working and I took it apart and determined that it was the on/off swith. It was an enclosed unit but with some minature screwdrivers I managed to get it open. It was packed with dead ants. I cleaned it out, snapped and taped it back togeter and it is working fine. They manage to get into totally seal places.

[Thailaw]

Is this the timer that you have ? Pretty sure it is since it was the only hard wired timer that I could find

IMG_20140415_111857.jpg

The limitations appear to be how many wires can physically be connected to the power (in) and load (out) connection terminals. I think that the OP is getting too hung up on the color codes and just needs to find the "hot" wires to connect the timer and then insure that the wires going to the lights are also "hot"

The only thing is that Panasonic does make a more expensive model that uses a battery that keeps the time in case of a power outage and if the OP has that model, a defective battery could be part of the problem

Yes, that is the timer that I have. The problem is not "limitations" on how many wires can be connected, but the minimum number of wires that must be connected for the timer to work properly. The timer has 4 terminal ports, two "source" (S1 and S2) and two "load" (L1 and L2). The timer motor works on a circuit through S1 and S2. I had an on/off switch for my lights, and when the electrician (using the term loosely) installed the timer, he removed the switch and installed the timer in its place. The on/off switch has only two wires, one red "hot", and one white "neutral, so he installed the red wire to S1 on the timer and the white wire to L1. The timer does not move/rotate, but the manual switch in the upper right-hand corner will turn the lights on and off.

The timer has no back-up battery, but if it did, i suspect that the timer would operate, but it would run the battery down quickly, I expect.

The timer requires the circuits to be rewired, as the posts by Crossy say, to add one wire to the neutral or two wires to the hot and to the neutral to make the proper connections to the timer -- either way should work. I bought thinner gauge wire today so that two wires will fit into the existing conduit and I will rewire the circuits tomorrow. The only problem will be, if there is not enough slack in the wire at the first junction box to bring the wire inside the box and make the connection in that box, i may need to go to the primary junction box about 10 meters farther away to make the connnection and replace all of the wire on that circuit. I bought enough wire to handle any eventuality.

[Langsuan Man]

If the manual switch up in the. upper right hand corner will turn the lights on and off then you have a complete circuit, which means there is plenty of power to run the timer mechanism . Good luck in fixing the problem

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bankruatsteve]

Is this the timer that you have ? Pretty sure it is since it was the only hard wired timer that I could find

IMG_20140415_111857.jpg

The limitations appear to be how many wires can physically be connected to the power (in) and load (out) connection terminals. I think that the OP is getting too hung up on the color codes and just needs to find the "hot" wires to connect the timer and then insure that the wires going to the lights are also "hot"

The only thing is that Panasonic does make a more expensive model that uses a battery that keeps the time in case of a power outage and if the OP has that model, a defective battery could be part of the problem

Yes, that is the timer that I have. The problem is not "limitations" on how many wires can be connected, but the minimum number of wires that must be connected for the timer to work properly. The timer has 4 terminal ports, two "source" (S1 and S2) and two "load" (L1 and L2). The timer motor works on a circuit through S1 and S2. I had an on/off switch for my lights, and when the electrician (using the term loosely) installed the timer, he removed the switch and installed the timer in its place. The on/off switch has only two wires, one red "hot", and one white "neutral, so he installed the red wire to S1 on the timer and the white wire to L1. The timer does not move/rotate, but the manual switch in the upper right-hand corner will turn the lights on and off.

The timer has no back-up battery, but if it did, i suspect that the timer would operate, but it would run the battery down quickly, I expect.

The timer requires the circuits to be rewired, as the posts by Crossy say, to add one wire to the neutral or two wires to the hot and to the neutral to make the proper connections to the timer -- either way should work. I bought thinner gauge wire today so that two wires will fit into the existing conduit and I will rewire the circuits tomorrow. The only problem will be, if there is not enough slack in the wire at the first junction box to bring the wire inside the box and make the connection in that box, i may need to go to the primary junction box about 10 meters farther away to make the connnection and replace all of the wire on that circuit. I bought enough wire to handle any eventuality.

You only need ONE live and ONE neutral (both of which are required) for the input. You don't really need to use the neutral out if the circuit has source otherwise. The live out is the one being switched.

[Thailaw]

If the manual switch up in the. upper right hand corner will turn the lights on and off then you have a complete circuit, which means there is plenty of power to run the timer mechanism . Good luck in fixing the problem

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

There are two circuits inside the timer-- one that is on continuously to run the timer motor and one that is opened and closed by the timer to run the lights -- see the wiring diagram in my post above. I have one circuit for the lights, so the maual switch will trun the lights on (and off) but the timer motor circuit is incomplete -- that is the problem.

Crossy's post identified my problem. I will tackle fixing it today.

[Thailaw]

bankruatsteve Posted Yesterday, 22:58

"You only need ONE live and ONE neutral (both of which are required) for the input. You don't really need to use the neutral out if the circuit has source otherwise. The live out is the one being switched."

I agree; and that is what I will do if I have enough slack in the wire to bring the neutral into the junction box -- hook the neutral for the timer (S2) into the neutral wire for the lights, which is a straight run from the main junction box to the lights. If I have to rewire back to the main junction box, I will probably run two wires to and two wires from the timer, as the wiring diagram shows. The only problem is the conduit to run the wires through, which is a small diameter and has several bends, so running new wires is a challenge. The rest is very easy.

[VocalNeal]

Picture is worth a thousand words. Sorry it was easier to post this than to draw it out and scan , and, and....

Edited April 16, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Thailaw]

Picture is worth a thousand words. Sorry it was easier to post this than to draw it out and scan , and, and....

Thanks. At least a thousand.... If the 3 wire set-up, with the L1 post empty doesn't work, I'll try this.

[Thailaw]

Picture is worth a thousand words. Sorry it was easier to post this than to draw it out and scan , and, and....

Thanks. At least a thousand.... If the 3 wire set-up, with the L1 post empty doesn't work, I'll try this.

I re-wired the timer today. I replaced the existing wire to the first (closest) junction box with new thinner wire to provide more room in the conduit to the timer for an additional wire -- I now have 3 wires; before there were 2. The existing wiring scheme stayed as it is, and I added one neutral wire to the S2 (S1 has the "hot" wire; the wire ports being S1, S2, L2, L1, in that order), which joins with the neutral wire going from the source to the lights. There was plenty of slack on the neutral wire to join the new wire in the junction box. The L1 wire is the wire that continues the hot wire to the lights when the timer is closed. The L2 port is open, no wire. The wiring is the same as that shown by VocalNeal (assuming that red is "neutral" and black is "hot"), except that there is no wire running from S1 to L2. As Crossy noted, that connection is made already inside the timer (see the wiring diagram on the side of the timer box, above). The timer works (rotates) and the lights on on and off. Thanks to everyone for the help.