Australian white Chardonnay wine in fact Vietnamese pineapple alcohol

[xylophone]

Actually, thinking about it, when I next go down to the supermarket I will look at a few Montclair bottles and boxes, and see exactly what the labels say and whether or not they mention "fruit wine". I do know they mention both Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz grape varieties, but nothing else.

Given that which I have said above, it would lead me to believe that the addition of Roselle would be more for getting round paying taxes than adding colour or acidity................ but then again, this is speculation and more info would be great.

xylophone, I was actually just at Foodland and did exactly the same thing, checked the back label of Montclair and it along also with Berri Estate are both labeled "Fruit Wine". I then had a good chuckle to myself looking at the Berri Estate label, the first thing I noticed was the "orange" excise department stamp.

I didn't go into the nuts and bolts of the label, just noticed those 2 things (mentioned above) and left, I was also going to go into Wine Connection to check the back label of the Jump Yard, but got sidetracked.

Just missed you, GS..............so Fruit wine is acceptable on the back of the label, when the front advertises grape varieties??

I think this calls for an explanation from Siam Wines!!!!!

[daoyai]

As with grapes, the length of maceration determins the color as the pigment is in the skin. Roslle is pigment rich. Check out lakeville wine, a deep red pineapple wine colored with , yes roselle. Any sugary fruit can make wine.

[GrantSmith]

Just missed you, GS..............so Fruit wine is acceptable on the back of the label, when the front advertises grape varieties??

I think this calls for an explanation from Siam Wines!!!!!

I think they can get away with it because of a "lost in translation" scenario. The complexities and idiosyncrasies of "wine" vs "fruit wine" are lost.

Totally abhorrent to the purists but to the paupers, well, it's one of life's little luxuries I guess

Unfortunately, I don't see that boat being rocked anytime in the near future either.

[GrantSmith]

I would also put money on their Finca de Malpica also being a "fruit wine" and marketed otherwise...

[xylophone]

As with grapes, the length of maceration determins the color as the pigment is in the skin. Roslle is pigment rich. Check out lakeville wine, a deep red pineapple wine colored with , yes roselle. Any sugary fruit can make wine.

Thanks daoyai.............. yes I understand about the maceration and the fact that any sugary fruit can make wine, however my real question was WHY they need to do this, especially when both the Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz grapes have skins which are pigment rich?

Having said that, if indeed Siam import just the grape juice, then there is no maceration taking place, because of lack of contact with the skins and the fermentation process which releases some of these, thereby the grape juice is probably lacking in colour, hence the need to add something to it.

As I mentioned earlier, surely the easiest thing to do would be to package up the grape skins and send them over with the grape juice to be fermented at the Siam winery.

As this doesn't happen, in order to retain some integrity in the process, I would assume that the Roselle is fermented separately in order to extract the maximum colour and to control the fermentation process better, which in itself would appear to be a much more cumbersome process. UNLESS, as I mentioned earlier, by adding the Roselle and fermenting them in Thailand, some taxes can be avoided?

I wonder what Siam winery would say if they were asked about the addition of Roselle to their wine?

[quidnunc]

As with grapes, the length of maceration determins the color as the pigment is in the skin. Roslle is pigment rich. Check out lakeville wine, a deep red pineapple wine colored with , yes roselle. Any sugary fruit can make wine.

Thanks daoyai.............. yes I understand about the maceration and the fact that any sugary fruit can make wine, however my real question was WHY they need to do this, especially when both the Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz grapes have skins which are pigment rich?

Having said that, if indeed Siam import just the grape juice, then there is no maceration taking place, because of lack of contact with the skins and the fermentation process which releases some of these, thereby the grape juice is probably lacking in colour, hence the need to add something to it.

As I mentioned earlier, surely the easiest thing to do would be to package up the grape skins and send them over with the grape juice to be fermented at the Siam winery.

As this doesn't happen, in order to retain some integrity in the process, I would assume that the Roselle is fermented separately in order to extract the maximum colour and to control the fermentation process better, which in itself would appear to be a much more cumbersome process. UNLESS, as I mentioned earlier, by adding the Roselle and fermenting them in Thailand, some taxes can be avoided?

I wonder what Siam winery would say if they were asked about the addition of Roselle to their wine?

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice. It's really immaterial where the alcohol comes from since ethanol is ethanol no matter what the source. I think there's a good chance they are just mixing grape juice and roselle juice with alcohol and calling it fruit wine. Which, legally, it may qualify as.

[GrantSmith]

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice. It's really immaterial where the alcohol comes from since ethanol is ethanol no matter what the source. I think there's a good chance they are just mixing grape juice and roselle juice with alcohol and calling it fruit wine. Which, legally, it may qualify as.

It can definitely qualify as "fruit wine" no argument with that, it's the passing this "fruit wine" off as "wine" that is being questioned.

[GrantSmith]

As I mentioned earlier, surely the easiest thing to do would be to package up the grape skins and send them over with the grape juice to be fermented at the Siam winery.

As this doesn't happen, in order to retain some integrity in the process, I would assume that the Roselle is fermented separately in order to extract the maximum colour and to control the fermentation process better, which in itself would appear to be a much more cumbersome process. UNLESS, as I mentioned earlier, by adding the Roselle and fermenting them in Thailand, some taxes can be avoided?

I wonder what Siam winery would say if they were asked about the addition of Roselle to their wine?

I would speculate that it was to do with avoiding the excise tax and import duty on wine. Now it would just be to avoid the excise tax, not entirely as they would still be required to pay it, but I'd speculate further that the "wholesale" price at which Berri Estate and Mont Clair are isn't prohibitive.

As to what would Siam Winery would say when asked, they've been asked a similar question a couple of days ago on their facebook page, the response? Nothing to date

[xylophone]

As with grapes, the length of maceration determins the color as the pigment is in the skin. Roslle is pigment rich. Check out lakeville wine, a deep red pineapple wine colored with , yes roselle. Any sugary fruit can make wine.

Thanks daoyai.............. yes I understand about the maceration and the fact that any sugary fruit can make wine, however my real question was WHY they need to do this, especially when both the Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz grapes have skins which are pigment rich?

Having said that, if indeed Siam import just the grape juice, then there is no maceration taking place, because of lack of contact with the skins and the fermentation process which releases some of these, thereby the grape juice is probably lacking in colour, hence the need to add something to it.

As I mentioned earlier, surely the easiest thing to do would be to package up the grape skins and send them over with the grape juice to be fermented at the Siam winery.

As this doesn't happen, in order to retain some integrity in the process, I would assume that the Roselle is fermented separately in order to extract the maximum colour and to control the fermentation process better, which in itself would appear to be a much more cumbersome process. UNLESS, as I mentioned earlier, by adding the Roselle and fermenting them in Thailand, some taxes can be avoided?

I wonder what Siam winery would say if they were asked about the addition of Roselle to their wine?

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice. It's really immaterial where the alcohol comes from since ethanol is ethanol no matter what the source. I think there's a good chance they are just mixing grape juice and roselle juice with alcohol and calling it fruit wine. Which, legally, it may qualify as.

That's an interesting take on it quidnunc, never thought about that............having said that I've tasted both Montclair and Jump Yards, and they taste much the same as other cheaper, everyday swigging wines made from grapes and grape alcohol, but as you say ethanol is ethanol no matter what!!

More intrigued as this goes on. More research required!!

[xylophone]

EMAILS sent to Mont Clair and Wine Connection...........

One may ask why I am sending these e-mails, and it is because I think consumers have a right to know what is actually in the wine they are drinking, and fair enough, if someone wishes to drink wine with pineapple alcohol added, then that's entirely up to them, and I can assure you I have drunk a lot worse. However what I can't abide is wine being labelled as wine made from say Cabernet Sauvignon, when it is purely grape juice with another fruit added, and even perhaps alcohol from a different fruit.

I demand the right to know exactly what I'm drinking, without being subject to misleading labelling and advertising.

1). Dear Sir/Mdm,

I would very much like an answer to questions which have been posted on various websites regarding the contents of Mont Clair red wine.

You see I, and many thousands of other expats who enjoy wine, like to know exactly what we are drinking and the question which currently is being posed is whether the Mont Clair red wine consists only of wine made from grapes, or is it a mixture of grapes and some other fruit such as Roselle, and/or the addition of alcohol from another fruit?

So far, the wine threads on one particular forum have had the attention of some 35,466 views on the subject of this wine and others like it. So you can see that there is quite a following as to the many wine drinkers knowing exactly what they are drinking.

I therefore request as urgently as possible, some information as to how Mont Clair is produced and what goes into the wine.

I will be asking the same question of another particular wine supplier, and should I not get a suitable answer, then through my contacts in the wine trade, I will be posing the same questions through the media.

The key point is that people want to know what they are drinking, and that the description on the bottles and boxes aptly fits what is actually in them.

I await your response.

Yours sincerely,

2). Dear Sir,

I would very much like an answer to questions which have been posted on various websites regarding the contents of Jump Yards wine.

You see I, and many thousands of other expats who enjoy wine, like to know exactly what we are drinking and the question which currently is being posed is whether the Jump Yards wine consists only of wine made from grapes, or is it a mixture of grapes and some other fruit, and/or the addition of alcohol from another fruit?

So far, the wine threads on one particular forum have had the attention of some 35,466 views on the subject of wine in Thailand and Jump Yards has been mentioned many times. So you can see that there is quite a following as to the many wine drinkers knowing exactly what they are drinking.

I therefore request as urgently as possible, some information as to how Jump Yards is produced and what goes into the wine.

I will be asking the same question of another particular wine supplier, and should I not get a suitable answer, then through my contacts in the wine trade, I will be posing the same questions through the media.

The key point is that people want to know what they are drinking, and that the description on the bottles aptly describes what is in them.

I await your response.

Yours sincerely,

[daoyai]

They won't read it, much too long. As to alc. being added to grape juice and called wine? That would taste like a grape=juice cocktail, way too sweet, the fermentation converts much of the sugar to alc. We used to call pineapple wine "swipe" maybe because the pineapples were swiped from the field to make the wine... not bad actually.... I do miss sweet tuba, coconut flower wine...delicious.

[quidnunc]

They won't read it, much too long. As to alc. being added to grape juice and called wine? That would taste like a grape=juice cocktail, way too sweet, the fermentation converts much of the sugar to alc. We used to call pineapple wine "swipe" maybe because the pineapples were swiped from the field to make the wine... not bad actually.... I do miss sweet tuba, coconut flower wine...delicious.

i don't know the alcohol content of these wines, but, if it's in the normal range, and they are adding alcohol that means the grapes either didn't have a lot of sugar to begin with (unripe?) or weren't allowed to fully ferment. In addition, they could be adding flavorings that reduce the perceived sweetness of this concoction.

[GrantSmith]

The wines are within a normal range, around the 13% mark if memory serves. Don't think they'd go over the 15% threshold given the additional taxation for wines over 15%.

Xylophone, I'd be interested to hear what the FBAT has to say on this matter as well, given they awarded Montclair a number of 'medals' at their annual wine challenge.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice.

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

Edited April 25, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[quidnunc]

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice.

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

God knows what goes into this concoction.. You don't and I don't. As for sticking to French wines, are you saying our choice is manufactured fruit wine from Thailand or grape wine from France? Were California, Australia, Italy, Chile, Argentina and lots of other wine growing regions just drenched by a tsunami? We may not know what variety of grapes go into a particular French wine, but they are grapes.

[xylophone]

They won't read it, much too long. As to alc. being added to grape juice and called wine? That would taste like a grape=juice cocktail, way too sweet, the fermentation converts much of the sugar to alc. We used to call pineapple wine "swipe" maybe because the pineapples were swiped from the field to make the wine... not bad actually.... I do miss sweet tuba, coconut flower wine...delicious.

Yes, you make a good point about the alcohol being added to grape juice, because it probably would taste too sweet what with the amount of residual sugar in grape juice anyway.

Perhaps there is fermentation of the grape juice with other things added, as other posters have suggested, and it would be nice to know what goes into the wine(s).

Over the past years, the general public has demanded from food and beverage manufacturers that they put exactly what goes into their food/beverages on the labels, which is why there are long list of ingredients on them these days, so why should it be any different with wine?

Having said that, WinnieThe Khwai makes a reasonable point with his/her post, that if one is hoping to buy something which tastes very much like wine, at a much cheaper price, then that's the price one has to pay, sorry about the pun.

Still doesn't prevent the producer from putting exactly what is in it on the label, then everyone would be happy!

[PingandSingh]

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice.

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

Dear WinnieTheKhwai

I think it is time to educate yourself a bit on "wine". The stupid remarks indicate there is no knowledge about it in your entire body. Google around and a fascinating "new" culinary world will open (I hope for you). It will give you a pleasure you have never experienced before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French_wine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_wine

"Wine" is so much more than just a liquid to drink. BTW, in France (and other places) the taste and structure of the grape depends on the soil it sits on. The weather and rain are some other factors. Soil is different in most locations giving the grapes and thus the wine a different "bouquet", color and smell.

Try to "degustate" some good wine instead of just drinking it.

Wine is wine and fruit wine is fruit wine; 2 completely different things. Both can be good in their sections but not compare them on the same scale.

ไชโย! , sheun kaew, cheers, santé, zum wohl, .................

[GrantSmith]

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

I think the crux of the issue that I'm having (as are a few others, not sure about the OP) is a company marketing this product as "wine" as opposed to marketing the product for what it is "fruit wine".

Your comment regarding sticking to French wine not listing grape variety, that's more of a French "arrogance" as it is expected one would know the grape varietal by looking at the AOC which is on the front of the label. "New World" wines aren't allowed to do this for a number of reasons (mostly because of the French) but the French get away with it, because, well they're French.

As for sticking to French wine? I think Basil Fawlty said it best: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

[xylophone]

Quote WinnieTheKhwai: "I never heard anyone bitch about Mont Clair involving krajeab juice (roselle juiice) to ferment. (it does)".

I mistakenly attributed this quote (or something close to it) to someone else, however on a different subject, as I mentioned in a recently posted comment, I can see where you are coming from with regards to someone trying to make a product which is predominantly wine, and tastes like it, and if palatable will be bought by those people into whose price range it falls. All that, provided it states on the label exactly what it is.

I have quoted you above, and you seem to be certain that Roselle fruit is used in the production of Mont Clair. It would clear up a lot of confusion if you were able to verify your statement, i.e., where the information came from.

Maybe it was just an educated guess or something based on another post, however it would assist me (and possibly others) in trying to find out if other "fruit" or alcohol is added to the wines mentioned.

[quidnunc]

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

I think the crux of the issue that I'm having (as are a few others, not sure about the OP) is a company marketing this product as "wine" as opposed to marketing the product for what it is "fruit wine".

Your comment regarding sticking to French wine not listing grape variety, that's more of a French "arrogance" as it is expected one would know the grape varietal by looking at the AOC which is on the front of the label. "New World" wines aren't allowed to do this for a number of reasons (mostly because of the French) but the French get away with it, because, well they're French.

As for sticking to French wine? I think Basil Fawlty said it best: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

French classifications go back a long way before the modern consumer era. Also, only a small percentage of all wine produced in France was not vin ordinaire. Most of the premium wines were blends of various varieties of grapes. I think it was expected that the wealthy people who bought these wines would know or could find out through their wine merchant what varieties of grapes went into a particular wine.

[quidnunc]

Are we even sure that they ferment the grape juice at all? The poster said pineapple alcohol was added to the mix. Not pineapple juice.

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

Dear WinnieTheKhwai

I think it is time to educate yourself a bit on "wine". The stupid remarks indicate there is no knowledge about it in your entire body. Google around and a fascinating "new" culinary world will open (I hope for you). It will give you a pleasure you have never experienced before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French_wine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_wine

"Wine" is so much more than just a liquid to drink. BTW, in France (and other places) the taste and structure of the grape depends on the soil it sits on. The weather and rain are some other factors. Soil is different in most locations giving the grapes and thus the wine a different "bouquet", color and smell.

Try to "degustate" some good wine instead of just drinking it.

Wine is wine and fruit wine is fruit wine; 2 completely different things. Both can be good in their sections but not compare them on the same scale.

ไชโย! , sheun kaew, cheers, santé, zum wohl, .................

I think you're being unfair to Winnie. He's a real lover of wine in the way that real parents love their children: it doesn't matter how homely or foolish or unappealing their behavior, a real parent loves all his children. Of course, another word for this kind of wine lover might be "alcoholic".

[xylophone]

The original poster didn't quote a source, didn't show a label that even have the word pineapple in it, much less Vietnam.

And of course it's made just like any other wine is made, through fermenting to turn sugars into alcohol. Just that a percentage of other fruit is used in addition to the main grape variety. The whole purposes is to get to something that's just as good (if not better) than any cheap wine, but at a lower taxation, so lower price.

Anyone bothered by that should just stick to French wines. Which, by and large, don't even list the grape variety.

I think the crux of the issue that I'm having (as are a few others, not sure about the OP) is a company marketing this product as "wine" as opposed to marketing the product for what it is "fruit wine".

Your comment regarding sticking to French wine not listing grape variety, that's more of a French "arrogance" as it is expected one would know the grape varietal by looking at the AOC which is on the front of the label. "New World" wines aren't allowed to do this for a number of reasons (mostly because of the French) but the French get away with it, because, well they're French.

As for sticking to French wine? I think Basil Fawlty said it best: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

French classifications go back a long way before the modern consumer era. Also, only a small percentage of all wine produced in France was not vin ordinaire. Most of the premium wines were blends of various varieties of grapes. I think it was expected that the wealthy people who bought these wines would know or could find out through their wine merchant what varieties of grapes went into a particular wine.

Quite right, the classifications for French wines do go back a long way, and the laws which were structured around which grapes would be used for which appellation, were meant (amongst other things) to be able to give the winemaker some flexibility as to making his wine more palatable and to reflect the "terroir" of the region. This is not the case with red burgundy where the only grape allowed is the Pinot Noir, apart from a very small amount of low-end wine made called, "Passe tout grains" which allows the addition of the Gamay grape.

Generally speaking, the French drinking public were not too concerned about what grapes went into their wine, as long as the end product was what they wanted, although they did know by region, what grapes were allowed. One has to remember that it wasn't so long ago that someone living in the Bordeaux region, would never consider buying a Burgundy, nor would you find a Burgundy for sale in the region (this only changed when the likes of "wine warehouses" sprung up in northern France to allow overseas shoppers to stock up on wine and French delicacies, and they demanded a wider range).

The wine of Chateauneuf du Papes is a prime example as regards grape varieties, because before the recent reclassification (18 grape varieties now, however they are only an expansion of the previous 13 which included both red and white grapes of the same genus to be counted as one, now they are counted separately), 13 grape varieties were allowed into the mix and the winemaker would add a little of whatever would make his end-product the best it could be.

It wasn't expected that every grape used would be included on the label, perhaps the main three or four.

The same goes with Bordeaux, where the AOC laws state that the following grapes can be used: – Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Petit Verdot, Malbec and Camenere (although very little of this grape is now grown in France), yet you won't see them on the label, although on the back labels of some of the lesser wines the predominant grapes might be mentioned.

The point being that a Bordeaux is allowed to have those grapes, but it's up to the winemaker to determine which ones to add and in what quantities to produce the final product.

New World wines are not allowed to use the French classification of wines because they are considered to be "owned" by France (and quite rightly so when you think about it, because you would hate to see an average South African or Californian wine labelled as a Barossa Valley wine).

Although this did happen for a while and you only have to look at Grange Hermitage (as it was called) and Californian and Australian Burgundy, before the European Union laws/rules kicked in and prevented the use of French names for wines produced in other countries.

Finally, although the French wines were always (?) made from grapes, and you could be sure of a bottle of wine from the local region only included grapes, you couldn't always be sure that the grapes actually came from that region as huge quantities of wine from Italy and North Africa were trucked into France to add to wines to give them a little backbone when necessary!!

I guess no one is perfect!

[Ulysses G.]

I think you're being unfair to Winnie. He's a real lover of wine in the way that real parents love their children: it doesn't matter how homely or foolish or unappealing their behavior, a real parent loves all his children.

Maybe he is just less pretentious than some of us.

Wine snobs are somewhat deluded.

Not surprisingly, the subjects consistently reported that the more expensive wines tasted better. They preferred the $90 bottle to the $10 bottle, and thought the $45 Cabernet was far superior to the $5 plonk

http://yourbrainondrugs.net/2012/01/wine-snobs-are-somewhat-deluded/

Edited April 25, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Dear WinnieTheKhwai

I think it is time to educate yourself a bit on "wine". The stupid remarks indicate there is no knowledge about it in your entire body. Google around and a fascinating "new" culinary world will open (I hope for you). It will give you a pleasure you have never experienced before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French_wine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_wine

"Wine" is so much more than just a liquid to drink. BTW, in France (and other places) the taste and structure of the grape depends on the soil it sits on. The weather and rain are some other factors. Soil is different in most locations giving the grapes and thus the wine a different "bouquet", color and smell.

Try to "degustate" some good wine instead of just drinking it.

...says the guy starting a debate on a 349 Baht wine, produced for the bottom end of the Thai wine market.

The funny thing is that through all that snobby sarcasm, we aren't even in disagreement. I actually looked up that very Wiki page on French wine before claiming that they don't usually list ingredients/grape varieties. (I remembered it because it was in that BBC wine series featureing James May.) Were you as huffy when back in the wine shop I wonder? That will give all of us a good rep.

I think you're being unfair to Winnie. He's a real lover of wine in the way that real parents love their children: it doesn't matter how homely or foolish or unappealing their behavior, a real parent loves all his children. Of course, another word for this kind of wine lover might be "alcoholic".

Yeah, something like that. Except that I don't normally drink wine when in Thailand, simply because I feel the cost isn't worth what you get due to taxation. And I think we all agree Thai taxation of wine -especially when made from grapes - is extremely silly.

So when in Thailand I only drink wine at special occasions. Every time when -against better judgement and experience- I order a house wine in a restaurant it is extremely disappointing. But ordering proper wine doubles the cost of the meal, so then I think 'naaaahh'.

And the other time is at parties, when usually there is a box (yes box) of Mont Clair around. Of this I read on the back label a couple years ago that it contained Roselle (at the time, they might tweak it all the time) and then only in Thai if I recall correctly. And then I think 'wait, this is no worse than the cheapest imported wines that get served as table wines in restaurants'.

The disagreement we have is only about at that moment being able to say "I guess This-is-Thailand, Mai Pen Rai: it's not for special occasions, but it serves a purpose, at the price." Versus not realizing that due to local taxation some workarounds and loopholes are taken, and then get all huffy going back to the store because of a 349 bottle of wine that -OH my GOD- isn't made from 100% grapes and now I'm offended and the store is scamming because it's only on the back label.

I think I hinted at this difference in mindset in a past post in a different topic that wasn't about wine, but about what it takes to be a happy expat in Thailand. It was a longer post, but in summary it was about enjoying all of the good and the awesome, but being able to go 'mai pen rai' with some of the things that are different, and that just won't be up to scratch in Thailand in our lifetimes no matter how much we huff and puff. "TIT".

And then finally I DO appreciate good wine, occasionally in Thailand at very special occasions, but mostly abroad. I don't even know why the cheap-box Thai wine is even worthy of such a debate. It's all cheap plonk; enjoy it or not.

Edited April 25, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[MESmith]

If only Chang would start making wine.

I'll get me coat....

[GrantSmith]

If only Chang would start making wine.

I'll get me coat....

Singha do, so it's not out of the realms of possibilities..

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Follow up:

I was at Makro so checked out the labels of the cheap wine.

1. I can confirm that Mont Clair contains roselle in addition to grapes as a base. Note that this shows only in Thai writing and not in the English text, and as such could be considered to be a lot more sneaky than the wine featured in the original post. It does however contain the required word 'Fruit Wine' on the back label, too.

2. Another cheap wine that comes in big bottles is called Castle Creek. This one says 'A crisp dry white wine with fruit juice' / 'A dry red with fruit juice ...' followed by more details on the grapes (Shiraz and Cabernet) adn details on the area it's grown in Australia.

In summary it is a really common practise to get around some of the worst of the Thai wine taxation. Baht for baht, these wines taste no worse than the cheapest imported wines that weren't specifically doctored with x% other fruit content to get around some of the taxation.

I also noticed that the cheap 'The Pump' label which I kind of liked (liked at 300 Baht) is now up to 650. And no way is it worth that.

Enjoy. Or skip.

Edited April 27, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[xylophone]

Follow up:

I was at Makro so checked out the labels of the cheap wine.

1. I can confirm that Mont Clair contains roselle in addition to grapes as a base. Note that this shows only in Thai writing and not in the English text, and as such could be considered to be a lot more sneaky than the wine featured in the original post. It does however contain the required word 'Fruit Wine' on the back label, too.

2. Another cheap wine that comes in big bottles is called Castle Creek. This one says 'A crisp dry white wine with fruit juice' / 'A dry red with fruit juice ...' followed by more details on the grapes (Shiraz and Cabernet) adn details on the area it's grown in Australia.

In summary it is a really common practise to get around some of the worst of the Thai wine taxation. Baht for baht, these wines taste no worse than the cheapest imported wines that weren't specifically doctored with x% other fruit content to get around some of the taxation.

I also noticed that the cheap 'The Pump' label which I kind of liked (liked at 300 Baht) is now up to 650. And no way is it worth that.

Enjoy. Or skip.

Thank you for that research and feedback WTK, appreciated.

I suppose my main concern is that Mont Clair is BIG on promoting its content of Cab Sauv and Shiraz in English on the boxes/labels, yet does not mention this at all!!

Taking a guess I'd say that Mont Clair was aimed at the Farang market so better to keep them in the dark as sales might drop otherwise?

I like to know what I am drinking, so thanks for this.............not that I've bought Mont Clair for a long time.

[PingandSingh]

I used to empty a few "The Pump" bottles a week also. It is Australian bottled so that gives me some sort of confidence. Contacted the exporters and they will negociate with the importers. To them, going from 285 to 660 Baht in a few months is not normal as their price did not increase. So let's hope it might go down soon.

Not have to be the best wines (and absolutely not expensive ones) to me WTK, but I like to know what I am drinking and stick with "real wine".

Another bad example with alcohols in LOS (not smiles) is Bxxxxxxx whiskey (yes my deer). All the time I have to hear, see and learn how Scottisch this whiskey is. Even the ladies promoting it wil telling you it comes straight in the bottle from Scottland. However, reading the label it says "bottled in Manila" and once I had a "dirty" bottle. They changed it but no more of this whiskey for me (B)anymore.

WinnieTheKwai, you will find something to defend this but allow me to raise my eyebrows a bit..............

[slipperylobster]

Where's the Thai Ministry of Health?

on permanent holiday...