Schools hiring with no work permit

[sirchai]

I'm amazed at all the effort and gnashing of teeth that has gone into deconstructing the poster rather than simply answering his question.

Then please read his posts again and you'll find out that he's got completely other reasons for doing so. It's not simply answering a question.

Edited April 28, 2014 by sirchai

[darren84310]

If you knew the reasons behind me considering informing the authorities you would understand, I assure you. This school has been lying to teachers promising them visa and work permit assistance. Then every week just moving the goalpost. Now some teachers have found themselves working without a permit under false promises

Common practice... you will be the loser.

[larsjohnsson]

I'm amazed at all the effort and gnashing of teeth that has gone into deconstructing the poster rather than simply answering his question.

Not surprised when the poster claim that his friend have to pay 20k baht in overstay fine because of the school. We all know that's not true

[attrayant]

Then please read his posts again and you'll find out that he's got completely other reasons for doing so. It's not simply answering a question.

My point is that he asked a straightforward question that has a straightforward answer. His reasons and motivations are immaterial. He might want to turn in all his friends, burn down the school and kill the easter bunny, but the answer to the question of employer liability in the case of foreigner working without work permit will still be the same.

Not surprised when the poster claim that his friend have to pay 20k baht in overstay fine because of the school. We all know that's not true

Again, whether it's true or not has no bearing on the question asked. We can all ask the OP "why do you want to know?", but he is under no obligation to answer.

[sirchai]

Then please read his posts again and you'll find out that he's got completely other reasons for doing so. It's not simply answering a question.

My point is that he asked a straightforward question that has a straightforward answer. His reasons and motivations are immaterial. He might want to turn in all his friends, burn down the school and kill the easter bunny, but the answer to the question of employer liability in the case of foreigner working without work permit will still be the same.

Not surprised when the poster claim that his friend have to pay 20k baht in overstay fine because of the school. We all know that's not true

Again, whether it's true or not has no bearing on the question asked. We can all ask the OP "why do you want to know?", but he is under no obligation to answer.

Okay, let him kill whatever he wants to, but NOT THE EASTER BUNNY.-

[deepcell]

Why should you do such a thing? sounds stupid to me! Go home boy and drink a cold beer! Stop envying the lives of others and go live yours!

[AJ Alex]

Hi again,

I said NE because it's an international school and all teachers who have a work permit are NE speakers. They have decided not to get the school into trouble as it will apparently only be them who is screwed. For those that think the person in question is stupid I asure you they are not. Simply new to thailand and far to trusting in schools that pretend to be professional but underneath are crooks. Yes with regard to the visa they should have known better but the reason for this is because a previous employer did it all for them. I hope this fills in a few blanks

[AJ Alex]

No. I have nothing better to do with my time but try to help my friends. Read all the comments and you would know i'm not interfering i'm just gathering facts. Enjoy wasting the rest of your day :-)

[Angeledge777]

Hi again,

I said NE because it's an international school and all teachers who have a work permit are NE speakers. They have decided not to get the school into trouble as it will apparently only be them who is screwed. For those that think the person in question is stupid I asure you they are not. Simply new to thailand and far to trusting in schools that pretend to be professional but underneath are crooks. Yes with regard to the visa they should have known better but the reason for this is because a previous employer did it all for them. I hope this fills in a few blanks

Stop listening to all the trolls on this post and listen to those actually helping you out of this mess.

Everywhere in the world, the visa is your responsability and yours only. If your friend was overstaying and he now feel guilty and stressed of being an illegal alien in Thailand, he has to take his responsabilities which may result in going to jail.

Now, taking his responsabilities in Thailand is quite simple as long as you have the money to pay the right person. So, you friend should be going to Nong Khai or another border, pay his fine with another 1000 BAHT to give the custom officer as an apology for what he did, if he's not being thrown to jail.

When he comes Back to Thailand, with a valid visa, he can start filling the papers by himself, if the school is cooperative for him to get a work permit. If the school doesn't want to supply him with the work permit, keep focusing on your visa so you can leave and come as much as you want and, of course, trying to find a better place to work legally.

Work permit is expensive for a school. Many foreigners live in Thailand and they can easily do your friend's job with a lower salary and without benefits. The schools know it and they won't hesitate to do it. Anyway, they all know a policeman somewhere who will protect them from being deported or shutted down.

Now, can you go legal about this? The answer is yes but I wouldn't dare to do it because it's gonna go against you. Your friend is a farang and they are Thais, as simple as that. Only Thais have rights in this country.

[onlycw]

So what's new, OP?

Who doesn't know such a school?

One such school never bothered with any of the requirements. Not B-Visa, not the WP and certainly not with any form of reporting to the Regional Education office supervising them!

Cui bono? Let's see.

Work contract in English - and a copy of the Thai contract they made people sign on the sly? Nope.

And they love young men from Cameroon. One such guy, if he could take the TOEIC hurdle of a 600 score, that would be a huge surprise. As the guy couldn't handle small talk with the resident helper from the Peace Corps. Both says - they could not even exchange standard pleasantries LOL.

A: I guess the director will owe someone a favor. Can't see him being stripped of his pension or transferred, know what I mean? (Here on TV, there was a case of some "disappeared" Karen activist. And even if the official most likely to have a vendetta against the guy (and he had been seen last with the activist) will be found involved, he won't get 1 day in jail or a pay cut. And we are talking bloody murder here).

What hope does Thai education have if directors are not being held accountable?!?

Well, the law shows extreme bias. 10 k fine for the employer, 100 k fine and deportation to the hapless employee.

[Greg Nixon]

In any situation Thai verses Foreigner the foreigner will lose. It is called Ethnocentric.

[kingalfred]

If he or she keeps her mouth shut likely nothing will happen .If they go to the police be prepared for being deported

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Scott]

Off topic posts, troll posts and inflammatory posts and replies deleted. Stay on topic.

[larsjohnsson]

I have meet and talked with at least 100 English teachers without WP or the right visa in the last 10 years. Everyone have blamed either the school or the Thai authorities for everything. Even more strange is that they keep on doing it for less than $ 1000 a month most of them.

[aussiejon1604]

I have meet and talked with at least 100 English teachers without WP or the right visa in the last 10 years. Everyone have blamed either the school or the Thai authorities for everything. Even more strange is that they keep on doing it for less than $ 1000 a month most of them.

Lars you are truly a legend! Been everywhere and knowledgeable on every subject and such the expert in the field of critiquing. Can you please tell me where you got your PhD or Doctrine from regarding The Structure and Dynamics of Foreign Immigration and Migration Habits that define Foreign Employment based on Geographical and Socioeconomic Characteristics found within Environmental and Non Environmental Impact Studies from? I would love to enrol.

[larsjohnsson]

I have meet and talked with at least 100 English teachers without WP or the right visa in the last 10 years. Everyone have blamed either the school or the Thai authorities for everything. Even more strange is that they keep on doing it for less than $ 1000 a month most of them.

Lars you are truly a legend! Been everywhere and knowledgeable on every subject and such the expert in the field of critiquing. Can you please tell me where you got your PhD or Doctrine from regarding The Structure and Dynamics of Foreign Immigration and Migration Habits that define Foreign Employment based on Geographical and Socioeconomic Characteristics found within Environmental and Non Environmental Impact Studies from? I would love to enrol.

Don't you have enough problems with wife, house & lawyers without starting more trouble here ??

[aussiejon1604]

I have meet and talked with at least 100 English teachers without WP or the right visa in the last 10 years. Everyone have blamed either the school or the Thai authorities for everything. Even more strange is that they keep on doing it for less than $ 1000 a month most of them.

Lars you are truly a legend! Been everywhere and knowledgeable on every subject and such the expert in the field of critiquing. Can you please tell me where you got your PhD or Doctrine from regarding The Structure and Dynamics of Foreign Immigration and Migration Habits that define Foreign Employment based on Geographical and Socioeconomic Characteristics found within Environmental and Non Environmental Impact Studies from? I would love to enrol.

Don't you have enough problems with wife, house & lawyers without starting more trouble here ??

All sorted Lars thank you and all in a very satisfactory manner even with your unfounded comments and unsubstantiated criticism. How about posting a response that is constructive to an OP rather than just being critical of it that ultimately finds yourself only to be proven wrong with comments that can't be deleted. A bit embarrassing don't you think? There's no trouble Lars. Don't let your imagination run too wild.

My suggestion to the OP is to contact and to seek advice from a visa specialist to confirm whether he is currently a legal alien in Thailand or as others have suggested, now in the territory of over stay and accumulating a debt to immigration. Thailand can be an ambiguous cauldron of information but surprisingly not when it comes to money owed to the state. Considering the OP has declared his financial status as not being able to afford a "visa run" surely see's himself in a unique position and one for concern if a lump sum be demanded. Whilst reading other posts that had similarities, each case is held against the individual and relying on others well intended hear say might find the quote that "ignorance won't stand up in a court of law". I'm not suggesting court, just that not knowing won't buy you out of any potential trouble. His new employer could also be offering up information, but having it put to the test could see them become suddenly quiet if they themselves find they are working outside of government limits especially if no current WP has been obtained. I believe there is only one person who can source the information and put a clearer picture to the predicament concerning the visa and that is the OP himself considering it is applicable to him alone. Calling immigration unfortunately hasn't been conclusive which is why I suggest a visa specialist. Considering they can arrange things under the table for extended fees often has me thinking they know the immigration laws better that those in any regional office.

Good luck and I hope it has a positive outcome for you.

[Scott]

It's interesting that you have met so many illegal teachers. I've been working in education for close to 20 years with 15 in the administrative side, which includes mostly recruiting. I haven't met 100 working without work permits. I've met a lot who started out without the proper visa and work permit, but they were legal within a reasonable amount of time, as in a month or two.

At any rate, let's stay on topic.

[Thunder26]

It's interesting that you have met so many illegal teachers. I've been working in education for close to 20 years with 15 in the administrative side, which includes mostly recruiting. I haven't met 100 working without work permits. I've met a lot who started out without the proper visa and work permit, but they were legal within a reasonable amount of time, as in a month or two.

At any rate, let's stay on topic.

That's what we are talking about. You've met many people starting without a proper visa which is illegal from the start. On tourist visa it is written that an alien on a tourist visa has no right to work. But what most schools do? "You'll get a working visa after probation." Which can last 6 months or a year! Then if you pass probation the school might tell you "Sorry, no work permit or working visa for you, you don't have the right qualifications, no degree in teaching, no teachers licence ..." and the saga continues. Let's be honest, most schools treat foreign teachers as slaves, and if you are not a good slave you are simply sacked. No rights whatsoever!

To reply to the OP. Reporting the school won't help. 99% of schools in Thailand treat the teachers in the same way. The looser will be you or your friend that overstayed. It is not the schools problem when it comes to overstaying. To save energy and avoid stress it is better to bite the bullet and pay the fine to immigration.

[AJ Alex]

Fine has been paid now and a new job with a paid for work permit and visa assistance has been found. Thanks for all the help, i guess he didn't understand how a visa works but learnt it the hard way now. Not a mistake that will be made twice. thanks again ;-)

[culicine]

Fine has been paid now and a new job with a paid for work permit and visa assistance has been found. Thanks for all the help, i guess he didn't understand how a visa works but learnt it the hard way now. Not a mistake that will be made twice. thanks again ;-)

Was there any consequence to the school? Any fine? Some schools have a culture of having teachers working without the correct documentation. I hope they learn how to process teacher's paperwork. Besides, I'm not sure how a teacher can work for more than a year like this. Teachers in the system need to have WP, and also paying taxes, to get a non-immigrant B visa. paying tax is very important. You cannot renew a B visa without the tax form and receipt. Keep that in mind for your new job. Good luck.

[larsjohnsson]

It's interesting that you have met so many illegal teachers. I've been working in education for close to 20 years with 15 in the administrative side, which includes mostly recruiting. I haven't met 100 working without work permits. I've met a lot who started out without the proper visa and work permit, but they were legal within a reasonable amount of time, as in a month or two.

At any rate, let's stay on topic.

There does not exist any "they were legal within a reasonable amount of time" if they work without proper visa and work permit they are NOT legal.

And one of the reasons that many schools pay a very low salary for teachers, is that they know it's easy to get a farang without proper visa or work permit to accept it. This will of course also hold back the salaries for honest working teachers

Edited May 1, 2014 by larsjohnsson

[Scott]

It's interesting that you have met so many illegal teachers. I've been working in education for close to 20 years with 15 in the administrative side, which includes mostly recruiting. I haven't met 100 working without work permits. I've met a lot who started out without the proper visa and work permit, but they were legal within a reasonable amount of time, as in a month or two.

At any rate, let's stay on topic.

There does not exist any "they were legal within a reasonable amount of time" if they work without proper visa and work permit they are NOT legal.

And one of the reasons that many schools pay a very low salary for teachers, is that they know it's easy to get a farang without proper visa or work permit to accept it. This will of course also hold back the salaries for honest working teachers

Very, very few teachers are legal when they start working in Thailand, with some rare exceptions. The few that we have had who got the non-immigrant B visa in their home country, were not allowed to get a Work Permit until after they actually started work.

Oh, and by the way, I want to wish you the best of luck with trying to tell anyone in Immigration or the Ministry of Labor that they "have to" do anything.

The top-tier international schools do manage to process most of the paperwork before they start, but a good friend says many do not get the work permit until after school starts.

[larsjohnsson]

Yes very very few are legal when they start working. And many are not legal a year later either. And if you say it's very very unusual to work illegal, you are either dreaming or not telling the truth

Edited May 1, 2014 by larsjohnsson

[siampolee]

larsjohnsson post # 54.

Yes very very few are legal when they start working. And many are not legal a year later either. And if you say it's very very unusual to work illegal, you are either dreaming or not telling the truth

Sage words from a self presumed expert or a specialist ?

An expert knows very little about a great deal. A specialist knows a great deal about very little.

Now time to come clean. Which category are you in larsjohnsson?

[Scott]

One off-topic post has been removed. This is what the OP says:

Hi,

Can a school get a fine for hiring teachers with no work permit?

My school is trying to shaft financially and they have teachers here with no work permit

If I was to tell the police/authorities about this, what would happen?

I'm aware of what would happen to the teachers working with no work permit, but I specifically want to know about the consequences the school will have to face (if any)

Thanks

That's what the thread is about. Please stay on topic. Continued off-topic, troll posts will result in suspension.

[BruceMangosteen]

A lot of schools are going to find a lot of experienced teachers showing up to teach without a work permit. This is due to the expanded Teachers Concil's role in the process and failure of said schools the somehow grease the wheel. What happens next only time will tell. I personally know of three schools with the same "problem". Teachers given new contracts, getting their VISA's, only to find out the Work Permit process is on hold due to TCT rules. While the rules of course make sense, this year seems to be the first one where their enforcement has become widespread and caused teachers to be less than fully "legal" employment wise. The entire Kingdom is in for an educational shock.

[SlyAnimal]

Also to answer your original question:

Offence Penalty

Working without a work permit (Section 51)

Imprisonment for 5 years or a fine ranging from 2,000 Baht to 100,000 Baht or both

Having a work permit but engaging in an occupation other than stated in the work permit (Section 52)

A fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht

Having a work permit but not having it on you when demanded by the police (Section 53)

A fine not exceeding 10,000 Baht

Employing a foreigner without a work permit (Section 54)

A fine not exceeding 100,000 Baht per person.

The penalty is potentially worse for the workers, than what it is for the employer.

I used to have a pdf file of the relevant act, but can't seem to find it (It's part of what you need to study for your Thai teaching licence exams), but I found this online.

I hope that you intend on using this information more as a bargaining tool with the school, and don't intend on ratting out the other foreign teachers you've been working with. As it'd impact them much more than what it would the school.

[hidavey]

You become a RAT!

[Scott]

It's not quite as easy as everyone thinks to rat out someone for not having a work permit. I am familiar with someone who had a vendetta against another person and made a visit to the Police, immigration and the MOL to report someone for not having a correct visa and work permit.

To the best of knowledge, no one did anything. I don't even think they bothered to make a phone call.

When there is a crackdown and something happens, I think it is because someone further up the food chain wanted something to happen.

Heading out to arrest Joe Doe at some little school is probably not going to result in much extra income for anyone, and besides it's hot outside.