Thai Immigration: Border insecurity mounts as tourist visa abuse is targeted

[A12341]

Are people actually getting stranded in Tachilek when they try to get a visa exemption at the Mae Sai border crossing?? I really need to know what the likelihood is of this happening, as I'm planning to go there this week. All my things are in my apartment in Thailand. I've never worked illegally, but I've been here for a while, haven't gotten a visa exemption in the last six months, but I'm sure I have some in my passport. I'm getting pretty worried... I don't have a lot of other options that can be organized in a few days.

[A12341]

"Some posters on the site's forum claim they are already being denied visas at some northern checkpoints..." Does anyone have links to the comments which talk about this?

[LivinLOS]

Rather then not let them back in.. Mae Sai has been not letting people (who wouldnt come back in) out..

So that is in effect denying them the ability to get another visa exempt stamp.

Theres also the guy who got held for 5 hours trying to use his second entry on a tourist entry.

[Soutpeel]

Yes.

how much?

If memory serves about GBP 200k

i dont see one for less than 1 million pounds. that isnt allowing anyone to come, its targeted at rich investors. thats hardly the same thing as everyone wants thailand to do.

My apologies after checking this was to do with the Entrepreneur visa not an investment visa,

I knew I had seen the sum of GBP 200k mentioned somewhere....

http://www.visa4gb.com/FAQ/faq.php?answer=13&cat_name=Immigration

Edited May 19, 2014 by Soutpeel

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm assuming, the rationale there by Thai Immigration is -- there's no Thai embassy/consulate in Myanmar, and thus no place in the exit country where anyone could obtain a Thai visa, tourist or otherwise.

[A12341]

Rather then not let them back in.. Mae Sai has been not letting people (who wouldnt come back in) out..

So that is in effect denying them the ability to get another visa exempt stamp.

Theres also the guy who got held for 5 hours trying to use his second entry on a tourist entry.

Thank you for that clarification... Is there any word on how common that was? Is there an interrogation process where you can explain yourself and try to offer supporting evidence/ references?

There was a new official at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane when I went in February. It seems she was given the mission to 'crack down', and she gave me and others the third degree, so I wouldn't be surprised if she denied me a tourist visa. Better to be stranded in Vientiane than Burma though : ).

[John1thru10]

Immigration in most countries sometimes give passengers a "hard time" periodically, their job is to quiz and assess. You got in didn't you, stop complaining, you're not a victim, you're just a passenger who was quizzed, we all have been at one time or another.

You seem to be missing the bigger picture here.

This is going to happen to everyone who enters Thailand more than once per year when the rule actually comes into force.

No, that is just what people in panicking mode think.

Doesn't it get too dusty sometimes down there, kissing boots?

[ukrules]

Well the OP in this thread and Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon appear to disagree with you, so I guess if you want to argue about it, you would need to take that up with him....

Immigration officials have long expressed concerns that the visa runs are being abused by foreigners who are working illegally in Thailand as language teachers, restaurant owners and staff, real estate agents and tour guides. Immigration Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon told Spectrum that if foreigners wanted to retire, work or do business in Thailand they had to apply for the correct type of visa and not exploit those designated for tourist

You are quoting (and hiding behind) meaningless officialdom. I am not working illegally. That someone else is shouldn't affect everyone else in such an arbitrary manner.

They will never get rid of all the people who work illegally because no matter how many they deport there will always be someone else waiting to take their place, the penalty (deportation) is a minor inconvenience to anyone who's caught. The correct and logical approach to this issue would be to go after the companies who employ illegal immigrants.

This is the approach they take in the UK. If a company is caught employing someone without the correct documentation it's a maximum 20,000 pounds (1 Million Baht) fine and from what I've heard the maximum fine is the default amount that you have to pay, so lots of people have had their business destroyed / bankrupted by employing illegal immigrants. I suspect that action like this would spur a lot of people into action to ensure their employees have the correct documentation. A one million Baht fine would be quite a deterrent.

The fact that they aren't going after companies and people who employ people without work permits shows that the real reason behind this has nothing to do with enforcing the law.

How many of the wealthy Thai's employ staff in their houses who are from other countries and I wonder do they all have the correct documentation ?

[ukrules]

Unbelievable that some of the posters here actually support these extrajudicial powers given to the immigration officials, mostly given to junior ones. It invites all sorts of abusive behaviour and mere "suspicion" should be always backed up with evidence and appeal process.

According to the same amazing logic, if your ex-gf goes to police and says you DUI yesterday and then the police gives you a hefty fine and takes away your license without any possibility to present your side of the story, it would be quite OK! Especially if you were not even near your car nor drunk yesterday.

I find it hard to believe the scenario described above is possible.

A judge would laugh in the face of any prosecutor who presented this case to him which is why it wouldn't happen.

[ukrules]

If it about money for the government why not just allow people to pay 1,900 baht a month at immigration and by pass

the visa run bus companies.

It is about money but the 1,900 Baht is not enough, that's pocket change.

For 500,000 Baht you can get a 5 year visa and come and go as much as you want, one year per entrance stamp with no problems.

[stevenl]

Immigration in most countries sometimes give passengers a "hard time" periodically, their job is to quiz and assess. You got in didn't you, stop complaining, you're not a victim, you're just a passenger who was quizzed, we all have been at one time or another.

You seem to be missing the bigger picture here.

This is going to happen to everyone who enters Thailand more than once per year when the rule actually comes into force.

No, that is just what people in panicking mode think.

Doesn't it get too dusty sometimes down there, kissing boots?

You may not agree, that is no reason to start flaming.

[ukrules]

Pol Lt Gen Pharnu said it did not matter how a tourist entered Thailand — whether it be with 15-, 30- or 90-day visa exemptions — if they exited a border checkpoint and tried to reenter at the same point they would have to satisfy border control officials that their reason for travel is tourism. He also added that it did not matter what country the visitor came from.

This same scrutiny would apply to multiple-entry tourist visas issued by the Thai embassy in an individual’s home country. They could also be asked to provide evidence of financial support, which is typically 20,000 baht.

**** Correct me if I am wrong Ubonjoe but the above excerpt from the posting seems to indicate that even if one gets a multi entry tourist visa in their home country from a Thai consulate or embassy they could still be denied entry to Thailand if some border agent was in bad mood . Not saying the right to enter is alawys up to the agent but just saying there is no set rules that we can follow besides maybe being lucky enought to have a non -o say by reason of marriage or age (retirement) or business visa to enter Thailand. You said the cracdown would only affect those coming in on visa exempt but looks like even with any visa one could get from home country could still be barred from entering and even be banned for 5 years (or life) ?

It certainly looks that way. Big problems are looming on the horizon for people with all types of visa. I suspect no work permit will = problems.

I think it will affect people on every visa type where they don't hold a work permit with the exception of the Thailand Elite visa which is specifically targeted at those who want to spend long amounts of time in Thailand, of course this option is not cheap.

So those on the various O and B visas who don't have a job in Thailand and spend more than the arbitary and unknown number of days allowed here will be up for scrutiny just as much as a 30 day visa runner.

[ukrules]

How many farangs come to Thailand, work here and buy 3 houses in the west in under 5 years, while being naturalized and made a full citizen with all rights ??

None

[ParadiseLost]

Immigration in most countries sometimes give passengers a "hard time" periodically, their job is to quiz and assess. You got in didn't you, stop complaining, you're not a victim, you're just a passenger who was quizzed, we all have been at one time or another.

You seem to be missing the bigger picture here.

This is going to happen to everyone who enters Thailand more than once per year when the rule actually comes into force.

No, that is just what people in panicking mode think.

Doesn't it get too dusty sometimes down there, kissing boots?

What I would give to be a fly on the wall when you deal with officials... I wonder if you are so brave when it's a face to face situation?

No need for the attitude, this is not a war and there are no teams - everyone is entitled to their opinion and nobody here is going to change a thing, no matter how loud they squeal...

[John1thru10]

Well the OP in this thread and Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon appear to disagree with you, so I guess if you want to argue about it, you would need to take that up with him....

Immigration officials have long expressed concerns that the visa runs are being abused by foreigners who are working illegally in Thailand as language teachers, restaurant owners and staff, real estate agents and tour guides. Immigration Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon told Spectrum that if foreigners wanted to retire, work or do business in Thailand they had to apply for the correct type of visa and not exploit those designated for tourist

You are quoting (and hiding behind) meaningless officialdom. I am not working illegally. That someone else is shouldn't affect everyone else in such an arbitrary manner.

They will never get rid of all the people who work illegally because no matter how many they deport there will always be someone else waiting to take their place, the penalty (deportation) is a minor inconvenience to anyone who's caught. The correct and logical approach to this issue would be to go after the companies who employ illegal immigrants.

This is the approach they take in the UK. If a company is caught employing someone without the correct documentation it's a maximum 20,000 pounds (1 Million Baht) fine and from what I've heard the maximum fine is the default amount that you have to pay, so lots of people have had their business destroyed / bankrupted by employing illegal immigrants. I suspect that action like this would spur a lot of people into action to ensure their employees have the correct documentation. A one million Baht fine would be quite a deterrent.

The fact that they aren't going after companies and people who employ people without work permits shows that the real reason behind this has nothing to do with enforcing the law.

How many of the wealthy Thai's employ staff in their houses who are from other countries and I wonder do they all have the correct documentation ?

I think you are exactly correct here. I've followed your other posts, and I believe you see a clearer picture than many here. As you mentioned earlier, this is also going to hit the fan soon in regards to airlines protecting themselves against any possible loss, when they start seeing a large number of people sent back on the airline's dime, and without clear explanations. Restrictions to board will tighten significantly; however I seriously doubt airlines will want cut back the number of flights they've found so lucritive in recent years. So, I predict they will gladly sell as many tickets as possible, and then find hundreds of outraged (confused) passengers denied boarding at the last minute. That's going to be chaos for them.

Many people on this board also seem desperately defensive, trying to deny that anything unusual is happening. However, there are significant factors which just aren't being spoken about, and I don't know if it's simply ignorance on their parts, or fear. The fact is this crackdown was announced just 48 hours after the PM was forced to flee office, having been declared corrupt by the Royalist court. That is not business as usual, and hardly the time a government would normally decide it must put all it's effort into solving the problem of 1% unemployment. That level of unemployment is virutally as low as unemployment can be registered, so that's just not rational to make the country's focus be on that, instead of electing a new PM. There essentially is no official government at this time, and historically speaking, that would be the time for 'dog whistle' calls to nationalism. Not rational approaches to problems which aren't actually that significant. This is a call to nationalism on the part of this new L. Gen.

The L. Gen's other off hand remarks are far more telling: "Do you love Thailand? Then you must agree that we need to stop foreigners from destroying this country by stealing jobs from Thai people." That's classic dog-whistle rhetoric (particularly with unemployment being as low as it is), and is classic nationalism. While posters here might like to call that 'about time' and 'business as usual', to me as an American, it's far too similar to the kind of rhetoric I've come to expect from the likes of Sara Palin back in the US, when she targest Muslims, and any non-Christian minority in her speeches at home, as a 'threat to American values'. If you understand what the Tea Party means in American politics, it isn't pretty, and it doesn't stop as soon as it 'solves a problem'. It's something that the more it grows, the more it grows. And along the way, it does things like legalize torture, expand the NSA, and a lot of things like that, in order to 'protect American values'. People shouldn't defend that way of thinking, anywhere.

And to those apologists who say 'It's the same in the US and UK, why should Thailand be any different?', I have an answer for them. Thailand should not become more like the US and UK because in both those countries the citizens are quickly losing their civil rights, in favor or banks and corporations. In the UK they recently passed laws that no one has right to publicly assemble. How about the NSA, folks? Should Thailand start reading all your emails, too? Should Thai banks start bankrupting the world's economy, and then see their CEO's make unprecedented profits as a result? Should Thailand start attacking countries all over the world with drones? One could go on and on listing abuses by the US and UK, and saying that Thailand should rightly emulate such things, is a digustingly unthinking response.

Edited May 19, 2014 by John1thru10

[AYJAYDEE]

Well the OP in this thread and Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon appear to disagree with you, so I guess if you want to argue about it, you would need to take that up with him....

Immigration officials have long expressed concerns that the visa runs are being abused by foreigners who are working illegally in Thailand as language teachers, restaurant owners and staff, real estate agents and tour guides. Immigration Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon told Spectrum that if foreigners wanted to retire, work or do business in Thailand they had to apply for the correct type of visa and not exploit those designated for tourist

You are quoting (and hiding behind) meaningless officialdom. I am not working illegally. That someone else is shouldn't affect everyone else in such an arbitrary manner.

They will never get rid of all the people who work illegally because no matter how many they deport there will always be someone else waiting to take their place, the penalty (deportation) is a minor inconvenience to anyone who's caught. The correct and logical approach to this issue would be to go after the companies who employ illegal immigrants.

This is the approach they take in the UK. If a company is caught employing someone without the correct documentation it's a maximum 20,000 pounds (1 Million Baht) fine and from what I've heard the maximum fine is the default amount that you have to pay, so lots of people have had their business destroyed / bankrupted by employing illegal immigrants. I suspect that action like this would spur a lot of people into action to ensure their employees have the correct documentation. A one million Baht fine would be quite a deterrent.

The fact that they aren't going after companies and people who employ people without work permits shows that the real reason behind this has nothing to do with enforcing the law.

How many of the wealthy Thai's employ staff in their houses who are from other countries and I wonder do they all have the correct documentation ?

I think you are exactly correct here. I've followed your other posts, and I believe you see a clearer picture than many here. As you mentioned earlier, this is also going to hit the fan soon in regards to airlines protecting themselves against any possible loss, when they start seeing a large number of people sent back on the airline's dime, and without clear explanations. Restrictions to board will tighten significantly; however I seriously doubt airlines will want cut back the number of flights they've found so lucritive in recent years. So, I predict they will gladly sell as many tickets as possible, and then find hundreds of outraged (confused) passengers denied boarding at the last minute. That's going to be chaos for them.

Many people seem on this board also seem desperately defensive, trying deny that anything unusual is happening. However, there are significant factors which just aren't being spoken about, and I don't know if it's simply ignorance on their parts, or fear. The fact is this crackdown was announced just 48 hours after the PM was forced to flee office, having been declared corrupt by the Royalist court. That is not business as usual, and hardly the time a government would normally decide it must put all it's effort into solving the problem of 1% unemployment. That level of unemployment is virutally as low as unemployment can be registered, so that's just not rational to make the country's focus be on that, instead of electing a new PM. There essentially is no official government at this time, and historically speaking, that would be the time for 'dog whistle' calls to nationalism. Not rational approaches to problems which aren't that significant.

The L. Gen's other off hand remarks are far more telling: "Do you love Thailand? Then you must agree that we need to stop foreigners from destroying this country by stealing jobs from Thai people." That's classic dog-whistle rhetoric (particularly with unemployment being as low as it is), and is straight ahead angry bigotry on his part. While posters here might like to call that 'about time' and 'business as usual', to me as an American, it's far too similar to the kind of rhetoric I've come to expect from the likes of Sara Palin, when she targest Muslims, and any non-Christian minority in her speeches at home.

And to those apologists who say 'It's the same as the US and UK, why should Thailand be any different?', I have an answer for them. Thailand should not become more like the US and UK because in both those countries the citizens are quickly losing all their civil rights, in favor or banks and corporations. In the UK they recently passed laws that no one has right to publicly assemble. How about the NSA, folks? Should Thailand start reading all your emails, too? Should Thai banks start bankrupting the world's economy, and then see their CEO's make unprecedented profits at the expense of the middle-class as a result? Should Thailand start attacking countries all over the world with drones? One could go on and on listing abuses by the US and UK, and saying that Thailand should rightly emulate such things, is a digustingly unthinking response.

try and stick to the subject at hand

[wilcopops]

If you abuse the system what do you expect - no other country will put up with the nonsense of people coming and going as if it is their right to do so. A tourist visa is a tourist visa - not an invitation to stay for ever.

My feeling is that both this poster and Thai immigration are approaching the problem from the wrong angle. And rather than solve it by piecemeal bureaucratic dictums they should be looking at long term policies on importing workers from abroad. Most countries welcome expertise and erntrepreneurialism from outside in one form or another as it benefits their own economies.......Thailand should take note, rather than rely on a list and system put in place God knows when without any real research or planning.

They imported a large immigrant entrepreneurial population already, which has then proceeded to put up as many barriers to entry as it can, so that they can exploit the Thai market without any fuss.

Who? Please don't resort to some racist response!

Edited May 19, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Nobody is "stealing" jobs.

[John1thru10]

What I would give to be a fly on the wall when you deal with officials... I wonder if you are so brave when it's a face to face situation?

No need for the attitude, this is not a war and there are no teams - everyone is entitled to their opinion and nobody here is going to change a thing, no matter how loud they squeal...

I'm always polite with Thai people, because I respect them. With you...not so much.

[John1thru10]

try and stick to the subject at hand

try 'and' understand that the subject is much larger than partying in Thailand.

[samran]

Love it. The longer this thread goes the shriller the visa runners get.

Highly entertaining. Keep it up lads..

Edited May 19, 2014 by samran

[AYJAYDEE]

try and stick to the subject at hand

try 'and' understand that the subject is much larger than partying in Thailand.

your rantings about the state of society in america has nothing to do with thailand's and/or america's immigration policies

[John1thru10]

try and stick to the subject at hand

try 'and' understand that the subject is much larger than partying in Thailand.

your rantings about the state of society in america has nothing to do with thailand's and/or america's immigration policies

Oh, you're right...when people repeat here constantly that America and the UK are harsh on visitors so Thailand should be too, there's no need to think further about the idea.

[AYJAYDEE]

try and stick to the subject at hand

try 'and' understand that the subject is much larger than partying in Thailand.

your rantings about the state of society in america has nothing to do with thailand's and/or america's immigration policies

Oh, you're right...when people repeat here constantly that America and the UK are harsh on visitors so Thailand should be too, there's no need to think further about the idea.

for a start, they are not harsh on visitors and even if they were, their civil rights and corporatization levels have absolutely nothing to do with their treatment of tourists. save your opinions of american and british society for another forum.

[moe666]

Well the OP in this thread and Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon appear to disagree with you, so I guess if you want to argue about it, you would need to take that up with him....

Immigration officials have long expressed concerns that the visa runs are being abused by foreigners who are working illegally in Thailand as language teachers, restaurant owners and staff, real estate agents and tour guides. Immigration Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon told Spectrum that if foreigners wanted to retire, work or do business in Thailand they had to apply for the correct type of visa and not exploit those designated for tourist

You are quoting (and hiding behind) meaningless officialdom. I am not working illegally. That someone else is shouldn't affect everyone else in such an arbitrary manner.

They will never get rid of all the people who work illegally because no matter how many they deport there will always be someone else waiting to take their place, the penalty (deportation) is a minor inconvenience to anyone who's caught. The correct and logical approach to this issue would be to go after the companies who employ illegal immigrants.

This is the approach they take in the UK. If a company is caught employing someone without the correct documentation it's a maximum 20,000 pounds (1 Million Baht) fine and from what I've heard the maximum fine is the default amount that you have to pay, so lots of people have had their business destroyed / bankrupted by employing illegal immigrants. I suspect that action like this would spur a lot of people into action to ensure their employees have the correct documentation. A one million Baht fine would be quite a deterrent.

The fact that they aren't going after companies and people who employ people without work permits shows that the real reason behind this has nothing to do with enforcing the law.

How many of the wealthy Thai's employ staff in their houses who are from other countries and I wonder do they all have the correct documentation ?

Nothing to do with enforcing the law but they are using one means of enforcing the law. Personally I think they are just fed up with deadbeats flaunting the law staying long term on what is meant to be used for short term visits.

[TheSpade]

Having a tourist visa does not make you into a genuine tourist. If you're spending the majority of the time in Thailand that is what you are doing, LIVING in Thailand

And what's wrong with doing that as long as you aren't working illegally, doing anything dodgy / criminal or up to no good?

If someone has the means to support themselves without taking anything from Thailand (benefits etc) or depriving locals of work then what harm are they doing?

People keep talking about how people have for too long been breaking the rules and exploiting loopholes but the fact is they weren't breaking the rules as this was perfectly acceptable and allowed by Thai immigration themselves - again assuming they were NOT working or doing anything they should not have been.

Another thing Thailand doesn't realize it has more online start ups / internet marketers / online entrepreneurs than just about anywhere else in the world and they are starting to make it difficult for these people to stay here.

Sure in the grand scale of things it might not make much difference to the over all economy but if they had half a clue they'd copy Chile's strategy who are encouraging foreign start up companies and online entrepreneuers to relocate their giving them long stay visas (1 year) access to start up funds ($40k of equity free seed capital) and access to business networks.

They plan to turn this into a $1 Billion industry.

http://www.startupchile.org/about/

Mean while Thailand is trying to get rid of a lot of people who come here long term and spend money and aren't actually doing anything wrong.

[TheSpade]

Personally I think they are just fed up with deadbeats flaunting the law staying long term on what is meant to be used for short term visits.

Again with this "flaunting the law" stuff.

Sure if someone is working illegally and stealing a job from a local that is out of order.

If someone has the funds to support themselves and want to spend it in Thailand...why not? What makes them "dead beats"?

[AYJAYDEE]

Personally I think they are just fed up with deadbeats flaunting the law staying long term on what is meant to be used for short term visits.

Again with this "flaunting the law" stuff.

Sure if someone is working illegally and stealing a job from a local that is out of order.

If someone has the funds to support themselves and want to spend it in Thailand...why not? What makes them "dead beats"?

they may not be deadbeats , but they are subverting the intent of the visa. Thailand is simply saying that they do not want folks under 50 not married to a thai to live full time in their country unless they can satisfy certain requirements. That doesnt seem out of line with most countries.

[A12341]

they may not be deadbeats , but they are subverting the intent of the visa. Thailand is simply saying that they do not want folks under 50 not married to a thai to live full time in their country unless they can satisfy certain requirements. That doesnt seem out of line with most countries.

They don't want people in that category working here illegally and avoiding paying taxes, and they don't trust that we're not doing that because so many foreigners apparently have been.

[AYJAYDEE]

they may not be deadbeats , but they are subverting the intent of the visa. Thailand is simply saying that they do not want folks under 50 not married to a thai to live full time in their country unless they can satisfy certain requirements. That doesnt seem out of line with most countries.

They don't want people in that category working here illegally and avoiding paying taxes, and they don't trust that we're not doing that because so many foreigners apparently have been.

they dont want people in that category LIVING FULL TIME in thailand! if they did, they would offer them a visa to that effect or lower the age on the retirement option.