Thai Immigration: Border insecurity mounts as tourist visa abuse is targeted

[chiang mai]

There is no requirement to have a tax number based on length of stay, unless you have a work permit in which case a tax number is mandatory. Retirees who want to reclaim tax paid on fixed term savings accounts will also need a tax ID.

[DrTuner]

The 180d rule comes from here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

If you are within Thai borders more than 180 days per year you are required to register and pay tax on worldwide income. Anyone failing to do so could one day be arrested for tax evasion at point of exit...

I think this part of your message may be wrong. I have always read & understood that Thailand tax service was only interested on money you earn and get IN Thailand, not by example by money you earn abroad and get in your bank in your country.

It only applies to income earned and remitted to Thailand during the current financial year, in theory pension income that is remitted directly to Thailand could be deemed taxable as could investment income earned in the same year.

Pension income is not taxable under Thai law because it is not earned from working. See:http://www.rd.go.th/...ish/6045.0.html

[LivinLOS]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

[chiang mai]

If you are within Thai borders more than 180 days per year you are required to register and pay tax on worldwide income. Anyone failing to do so could one day be arrested for tax evasion at point of exit...

I think this part of your message may be wrong. I have always read & understood that Thailand tax service was only interested on money you earn and get IN Thailand, not by example by money you earn abroad and get in your bank in your country.

It only applies to income earned and remitted to Thailand during the current financial year, in theory pension income that is remitted directly to Thailand could be deemed taxable as could investment income earned in the same year.

Pension income is not taxable under Thai law because it is not earned from working. See:http://www.rd.go.th/...ish/6045.0.html

I know that link well and I've looked again but I see no reference to overseas pensions, if I've missed it please point me at it.

Your argument that overseas pensions are not taxable because they are not earned from working calls into question why bank accounts are taxed and the interest (sometimes) recoverable, that form of income is not derived from work either.

[chiang mai]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Accounting rules are based on things like FIFO, LIFO, LILO, first in first out, last in first out and so on. So an account with 100k in it that's being topped up by say 10% a year is free and clear on the first 90%, during the current year, based on the date of the deposit.

EDIT for clarity.

Edited May 20, 2014 by chiang mai

[samran]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Technically, you could earn 1million dollars offshore on December 31st and have it paid to you offshore.

Transfer it to Thailand on 1 January and it is tax free...

Edited May 20, 2014 by samran

[LivinLOS]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Accounting rules are based on things like FIFO, LIFO, LILO, first in first out, last in first out and so on. So an account with 100k in it that's being topped up by say 10% a year is free and clear on the first 90%, during the current year, based on the date of the deposit.

EDIT for clarity.

Sure.. But what system does Thailand operate to ?? Theres 3 alternatives there..

If LIFO it would fall foul if FIFO or LILO (isnt that 2 ways of saying the same thing ??) then it wouldnt.

[LivinLOS]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Technically, you could earn 1million dollars offshore on December 31st and have it paid to you offshore.

Transfer it to Thailand on 1 January and it is tax free...

So as long as you keep more than a years living expenses offshore, you can reside forever and never pay tax on any of it.

[chiang mai]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Accounting rules are based on things like FIFO, LIFO, LILO, first in first out, last in first out and so on. So an account with 100k in it that's being topped up by say 10% a year is free and clear on the first 90%, during the current year, based on the date of the deposit.

EDIT for clarity.

Sure.. But what system does Thailand operate to ?? Theres 3 alternatives there..

If LIFO it would fall foul if FIFO or LILO (isnt that 2 ways of saying the same thing ??) then it wouldnt.

It's not a question of what rules does Thailand operate under, it's more about your argument as to which rules you use, it's your defense and such arguments are generally accepted in the accountancy world - there's lots of variants on this.

[chrisinth]

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Thai at Heart, on 20 May 2014 - 03:27, said:

Well I somehow this push is really aimed at John smith taking an extended holiday for a few months in the winter from the UK, or Ingemar the Norwegian escaping the winter.

Immigration in Thailand is a joke, and they have little influence away from the border. I doubt this has anything to do with stopping Svetlana selling condos but it probably has a lot to do with svetlanas boss laundering his cash.

Last week they busted a boiler room, they are pushing the Russians hard and unfortunately, they are going to use immigration sledge hammer to crack this but because the police are utterly corrupt.

I wouldn't be surprised that the ring behind the smuggling of the people onto the Malaysia plane have been pulled in and it seems that there are passports flying all over the place with dozens of repeat visas being used to smuggle people around.

I can honestly believe that various embassies have bitched at the utter lack of control of illegal tourists and trafficking and the most obvious problem has been identified at the repeated granting of tourist visas .

They aren't doing this to clean up illegal workers, they are doing this to really clean up the really dodgy traffickers, drugs smugglers, money launderers and undesirables running around the country.

Well done Thai at Heart, you seem to be one of the only posters in this thread that is looking 'outside the presumed box' and highlighting areas of concern that would force departments like immigration to get their act together.

I myself don't doubt that several of your points are part of the overall clampdown, albeit not mentioned in any interview/statement from immigration at this time.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Has this thread totally wandered away from what's going on with Immigration at the borders, and how they're handling incoming/outgoing visa-exempt and tourist visa travelers???

That is what the thread's supposed to be about, right??? Immigration crackdown, remember that???

[thesweetsoul]

I dont mean to confuse matters with a bit of common sense...but if russians, koreans, and vietnamese are the ones mainly targetted for border bounces and taking advantage of the system, WHY NOT JUST REMOVE THESE COUNTRIES FROM VISA EXEMPT LIST, and make them require Visa on Arrival or in advance?

I know alot of people from other Countries have long taken advantage of border bounces to remain here, but if these countries are the target, why not narrow in a bit.

It seems russian market especially overwhelms regions...like epiphytes....cling on but provide little benefit, and suck the Life out of hosts.

[DrTuner]

I dont mean to confuse matters with a bit of common sense...but if russians, koreans, and vietnamese are the ones mainly targetted for border bounces and taking advantage of the system, WHY NOT JUST REMOVE THESE COUNTRIES FROM VISA EXEMPT LIST, and make them require Visa on Arrival or in advance?

At least Korea has a bilateral agreement for the exemptions. Takes time to dismantle such agreements.

EDIT: Looks like Russia and Vietnam have them too: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/647881-russian-special-visa-rules/

Edited May 20, 2014 by DrTuner

[Thai at Heart]

quote name="LivinLOS" post="7849883" timestamp="1400547197"]

they dont want people in that category LIVING FULL TIME in thailand! if they did, they would offer them a visa to that effect or lower the age on the retirement option.

Obviously they aren't likely to do that, since most people under 50 are still working, and they usually have other options for visas... I don't think it would be as much of a problem for the few people under 50 who are living here and not employed, if it weren't for all the people working on tourist visas. Personally, the end of last year was the first time I've had visa issues...

if they "usually" had other options so many of them wouldnt be doing the 30 or 15 day border runs.

I don't really understand... Before you were supporting stricter enforcement of visa rules, and now you're saying that the foreigners seemed to have no other option but visa runs...? Obviously you could get a tourist visa instead of multiple border run stamps. And if the Thai officials are correct that a large percentage of the people doing border runs are working here, there would usually be the option of a B visa/work permit I assume. For the record, I'm not against the purpose of the regulations, but I think they're taking them too far.

There are not thousands of westerners working illegally in Thailand. I just don't beleive it.

Low 1000s.. If you include the guys working online and blogging for small profits etc.. then yeah sure.

Blogging and working online is a grey area I don't consider working. By that token people answering business emails while travelling are working.

They aren't taking a job of anyone and they are earning in cyberspace.

[ukrules]

I have never understood that "income earned within the same year" rule..

I mean.. Say you have 100k usd of investment income per annum.. And say you have an account with over 100k in it.. So more than a years buffer.. And you put your investment income into that account, and draw money from the account to send into Thailand.

As you have >100k in the account, and take <100k to Thailand each year, how do they define which dollar is which.. Is the 99k I remit to Thailand made up of last years dollars or this years dollars.. The dollars are mixed.

Seems a really strange way to define it to me.

Technically, you could earn 1million dollars offshore on December 31st and have it paid to you offshore.

Transfer it to Thailand on 1 January and it is tax free...

So as long as you keep more than a years living expenses offshore, you can reside forever and never pay tax on any of it.

Yes, this is my understanding of the situation.

[LivinLOS]

Blogging and working online is a grey area I don't consider working. By that token people answering business emails while travelling are working.

They aren't taking a job of anyone and they are earning in cyberspace.

It is of course your right to consider what you like.

But working online (be that blogging, running websites, freelancing, anything) is very clearly working.

The fact it doesnt take a Thais job is irrelevant in the eyes of the law.

[jspill]

So if you have an adsense website, you should deactivate it before landing at Swampy?

[LivinLOS]

So if you have an adsense website, you should deactivate it before landing at Swampy?

If its in your name and if you update it while here.. Absolutely.

[jspill]

If you don't update it here? Residual income.

[Thai at Heart]

Blogging and working online is a grey area I don't consider working. By that token people answering business emails while travelling are working.

They aren't taking a job of anyone and they are earning in cyberspace.

It is of course your right to consider what you like.

But working online (be that blogging, running websites, freelancing, anything) is very clearly working.

The fact it doesnt take a Thais job is irrelevant in the eyes of the law.

Very clearly.

Are you equating this to boiler rooms? There has as yet not been an arrest for this. I would seriously like to hear the labour department view of this.

Just consider an author coming to Thailand and writing while he is here. Essentially it could be defined as work. Actually a ridiculous definition but hey,TIT.

[Thai at Heart]

So if you have an adsense website, you should deactivate it before landing at Swampy?

Exactly. It is absurd, and I am not sure it would pass legal muster.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[LivinLOS]

Keep repeating what you 'think' all you like.. The law is not ambigiuos.. In fact the madness of the law is that it includes everything.. The law could even apply to posting on internet forum as paid or unpaid is irrelevant.

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175

[jspill]

Hmm, I'd like to see an answer from a Bangkok source, rather than Phuket. Plus a bit more detail to make it clear they understood the question, e.g. 'we define any passive income generated offshore, such as rent from a property, interest on a bank account, or website advertising revenue, to be working, and a barrier to entry to Thailand without a business visa'. As it stand it's still ambiguous to me, and unenforceable. Based on that link all I 'think' is that they will define work however they like, when it comes to arrest someone.

[DrTuner]

Just occurred to me the targeted nationalities all have bilateral visa exemption agreements. Could well be Thais got pissed off due to a lot of them being turned around trying to enter the countries in question (for obvious reasons, ie. suspicion of working illegally) and are retaliating.

[paz]

Just occurred to me the targeted nationalities all have bilateral visa exemption agreements. Could well be Thais got pissed off due to a lot of them being turned around trying to enter the countries in question (for obvious reasons, ie. suspicion of working illegally) and are retaliating.

Read the first posting in this thread to eliminate the need of any thinking.

[DrTuner]

Just occurred to me the targeted nationalities all have bilateral visa exemption agreements. Could well be Thais got pissed off due to a lot of them being turned around trying to enter the countries in question (for obvious reasons, ie. suspicion of working illegally) and are retaliating.

Read the first posting in this thread to eliminate the need of any thinking.

I never take any Thai statements without a few tons of salt. Too much face saving going on.

[A12341]

If anyone has any information about how tough the immigration officials at Mae Sai are being on people with passports from the non-target countries seeking visa exemptions, it would be highly appreciated! (I'm not a tourist, but not working yet either, I'm between visas). Thanks in advance!

[chiang mai]

Just occurred to me the targeted nationalities all have bilateral visa exemption agreements. Could well be Thais got pissed off due to a lot of them being turned around trying to enter the countries in question (for obvious reasons, ie. suspicion of working illegally) and are retaliating.

That is part of the problem, in part it's retaliation against South Korea who have deported over 9,000 Thai's for working illegally whilst Thailand has deported something like five South Koreans during the same period. I have no link to support that but I did read about it a few days ago so easily searched etc..

[Tomtomtom69]

Just occurred to me the targeted nationalities all have bilateral visa exemption agreements. Could well be Thais got pissed off due to a lot of them being turned around trying to enter the countries in question (for obvious reasons, ie. suspicion of working illegally) and are retaliating.

That is part of the problem, in part it's retaliation against South Korea who have deported over 9,000 Thai's for working illegally whilst Thailand has deported something like five South Koreans during the same period. I have no link to support that but I did read about it a few days ago so easily searched etc..

Close. It was 8000 Thais deported from Sth Korea and 20 Sth Koreans deported from Thailand according to the Bangkok Post article.