Thai exceptionalism - a myth or reality?: Opinion

[digibum]

I have to disagree on your inclusion of artistic contributions from Thailand, The Thais use natural materials to create intricate basket designs, fish traps, hand bags, just to mention a few. Their ability in pottery is a wide variety from small plant clay pots to huge water vessels. And last but not least the temples; the signature buildings of Thailand. They are artisans of the highest order!

Not sure if you're joking but everything you mentioned is not originally from Thailand.

Next it will be that Thailand invented automobiles and they dominate the industry through their companies such as Toyota and Nissan.

Don't give the Minister of Culture any ideas.

[Commander Tamson]

"Thailand is rare among developing countries in never having been colonised and is the only country in Southeast Asia with this unique status."

And this is significant..............why?

It is extremely significant to the Thai mentality and is probably the single major factor in their feeling of superiority over their SE Asia neighbours

The fact that the head of the Ministry of Culture would say that the reason they shot down a proposal to make English the official second language of Thailand because "some people" might wrongly assume Thailand had once been a colonized says pretty much all that needs to be said in terms of how strongly this is implanted into the Thai psyche.

And unless their attitude towards English as a 2nd language changes very quickly, their integration / contribution and benefit from the AEC will be minimal. But hey! By all accounts Thailand will be its hub!?!

[katareya2006]

I believe the whole Thai educational system needs a complete overhaul. Thai's are the most backward race I have ever come into contact with.

Commerce expects 2 Degree's, however, in reality they are not worth the paper they are written on.

The lack of real educated individuals Teaching these Students, coupled with over 80% of Thai's cannot communicate in English ensure's Thai's will always be servants to the western world.

[digibum]

Any time you have to create a Ministry of Culture, your culture is either manufactured or failed. Cultures, by their very nature, evolve organically and are not subject to being defined by a government agency.

[digibum]

The fact that the head of the Ministry of Culture would say that the reason they shot down a proposal to make English the official second language of Thailand because "some people" might wrongly assume Thailand had once been a colonized says pretty much all that needs to be said in terms of how strongly this is implanted into the Thai psyche.

And unless their attitude towards English as a 2nd language changes very quickly, their integration / contribution and benefit from the AEC will be minimal. But hey! By all accounts Thailand will be its hub!?!

Sure, as long as everyone agrees to speak Thai :-)

[Bluespunk]

Victors in wars write the history which leads to omissions and lies.

Why should nationalism be a dirty word?

Because it is.

[Tonawatchee]

I have to disagree on your inclusion of artistic contributions from Thailand, The Thais use natural materials to create intricate basket designs, fish traps, hand bags, just to mention a few. Their ability in pottery is a wide variety from small plant clay pots to huge water vessels. And last but not least the temples; the signature buildings of Thailand. They are artisans of the highest order!

Not sure if you're joking but everything you mentioned is not originally from Thailand.

Next it will be that Thailand invented automobiles and they dominate the industry through their companies such as Toyota and Nissan.

I was referring to the part of your statement where you "...couldn't think of any artistic World Class contributions from Thailand..." Not that they were the sole inventors of it. The Thais have their own unique artistic style.

[atyclb]

Gerald W. Fry, University of Minnesota

"An important part of education is how we teach about our own country in a balanced in-depth way. When I studied US history in school, I never learned about President Roosevelt's executive order 9066 of 1942, which incarcerated innocent Japanese-Americans living on the West Coast."

"A major principle in cross-cultural teaching and training is that you must understand your own culture before you can begin to understand others."

Since FDR's WW II internment is well-documented and reasonably well-known even if not learned in school, perhaps the good professor should reconsider my second quote from the article (above, emphasis mine). I believe he is (or should be) learned enough to know better than to contradict himself or expose his ignorance in the same article.

Unfortunately, these two links in the above biographic were non-existent:

Thai education expert Fry delivers strong message on reforms

Fry to receive honorary doctorate from university in Thailand

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gerald-W-Fry/149402061776713 looks like he got the honorary thai degree in 2011?

perhaps the article is written from the perspective of thai people on why they feel exceptional.

by the looks of things he appears to be yet another aging westerner (aka hansum man) fascinated with thailand

[rabas]

I think I once read something similar, only that was about the Aryan race.

Joe Stalin tried a similar approach in schools, his photo was on every wall, etc.

Kim Dong Il has the same.

I wonder where the idea came from and when it was instituted?

Hardly the same!!! Come-on!!!

Every house and public office gets a picture. What's the difference. I am not going into why its there and who came up with the idea in Thailand because I know the reason.

We now have a giant 7 foot picture of Rama 5 in a gold frame in our living room. Several family members conspired to buy it and mount it on the wall before I knew about it. Not that I don't like pictures of the King, but it was a significant redistribution of family wall space. They removed my rather small original print of Rama 5 on the Throne with his entire cabinet. The upside is Rama 5 gets a small glass of hot coffee and tea first thing every morning and I get to drink the coffee not apportioned to him. My first words in the morning are often, has Rama 5 had breakfast yet? Where does it come from?, the heart.

[Commander Tamson]

Victors in wars write the history which leads to omissions and lies.

Why should nationalism be a dirty word?

Because it is.

Nah - nothing dirty about nationalism. Now elitism - there's a dirty word. Us of European descent could never be accused of that!

[Jonmarleesco]

'... some Western scholars argue that Thailand was a "semi-colony" ...' Obviously some western scholars count the Japanese occupation which, as far as the Thais concept of colonisation is concerned, is no doubt accurate. And looking at the country's ex-colony neighbours, one wonders what the Thais actually gained from this 'unique status' ... and what they lost.

'In Thailand the zoo and Parliament are in close proximity ...' I wonder whether visitors recognise the difference?

And I'm disappointed that Gerald didn't sign off with his nickname.

[Thai at Heart]

I have to disagree on your inclusion of artistic contributions from Thailand, The Thais use natural materials to create intricate basket designs, fish traps, hand bags, just to mention a few. Their ability in pottery is a wide variety from small plant clay pots to huge water vessels. And last but not least the temples; the signature buildings of Thailand. They are artisans of the highest order!

Not sure if you're joking but everything you mentioned is not originally from Thailand.

Next it will be that Thailand invented automobiles and they dominate the industry through their companies such as Toyota and Nissan.

I was referring to the part of your statement where you "...couldn't think of any artistic World Class contributions from Thailand..." Not that they were the sole inventors of it. The Thais have their own unique artistic style.

Wasn't my statement. Yes they build nice temples. Not sure it is responsible for placing Thailand at a pantheon of creativity. Religious structures the world over tend to be incredibly artistic.

At the end of it, I think we can all concur that truly defining aspects to Thailand on a global scale are rather limited.

And yes there is a golf course at the airport and the army runs golf courses and other businesses because they are corrupt. Truly exceptional.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Jonmarleesco]

BillyBobThai, on 19 May 2014 - 12:27, said:

I find it hard to believe that this piece was written by a man who has a Phd from Stanford in education. This must be why the USA is falling behind other countries, poor education.

Gerald Fry

Professor

B.A. Stanford University

M.P.A. Princeton University

Ph.D., Stanford University

Org Leadership, Policy/Dev

410D Wulling Hall

86 Pleasant St S E

Tel: 612/624-0294

[email protected]

I put him in the same boat as a certain "Ed" from Phuket, both gone past their use by date, and need to be controversial so they can see their name published, both seem to live on past glory.

Sorry if the use of "past" opposed to "passed" upsets the grammar Nazis, but even the dictionaries seem confused.

It IS past.

[Tomtomtom69]

never seen so much nonsense combined into one article.

and that is also an achievement.

I wouldn't term all article as nonsense.

There is a feature of Thai life described which is reflected in reality. But described too little. It is about Thai women.

Long time back, when I came to Thailand I started noticing facts which I consider ominous:

- more female drivers on the roads than males;

- more female students at the Uni's than males;

- more female vendors, shop owners, attendants than males;

- if you need help with English/Thai translation 9 out of 10 cases a female is more helpful than a male;

... and this is in a Buddhist country!..

As to the rest of the article - it is an achievement in kalbo123 sense.

And, please, do not forget that EVERYTHING changes. Can't say more within the constrains of this post.

The OP is also forgetting one dominant feature of Thai Education: THOU MUST NOT QUESTION! In other words it is not Education - it is indoctrination! Brainwashing!

In the workplace, almost all office workers are young females (or in the case of government employees there are older ones too). If you go for a sales job, you as a foreign male will initially think you're in paradise surrounded by all this beauty, because the only other "guys" in the office are gay or transvestites (ladyboys). Getting along with your female counterparts is not so easy then...I'd actually rather be surrounded by more men, particularly "real" men! Haha.

Where are all the men then? Many of them work in factories as assembly workers etc. and as engineering production managers, in IT etc. and of course in menial roles.

Oh and of course don't forget public transport drivers where you made a slight mistake (they are overwhelmingly male, maybe you mean drivers of private cars are often females, which could be true). For a long time, I never saw even one female taxi driver in Bangkok (unlike in China, where they are quite common). Nowadays there are a few, but 98% are still male. Same for bus drivers (both long and short distance), train drivers (including the skytrain in Bangkok) and on aircraft, THAI Airways requires pilots to be male (they have sexist hiring practices) but for cabin crew, while males are accepted, the majority of male flight attendants are gay or transgender in some cases and that applies for all Thai airlines. Bangkok Airways however accepts female pilot applications, unlike THAI.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[northernjohn]

And Thailand is the only country in WWII to declare war on the U.S. and its allies and to never deliver the actual declaration of war document.

And Thailand is the only county in the world to build a monument to itself for sending one medical unit to Europe during WWI.

Need I go on?

Please, do go on... you got me interested.

BTW, who built the famous Kwai River Bridge and the railway? POW? And where did Thais capture these prisoners? Give us some facts. Thanks in advance.

Actually the death railroad was built by more supposedly hired on Asian workers. They got them from Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. I think the POW were mainly British and Ozzies. There is three graveyards holding the POWs that died in the work. The only reason the bridge over the river Kwai is famous is because they made a movie out of it. Most of the aerial scenes were shot in India is my understanding. As the bridge itself was easily open to bombing. Hells Fires pass was a much more impressive part of the railroad to my way of thinking. Another thing that is not generally known is that the building of the rail road was under the supervision of Koreans. A Plaque at one of the cemeteries tells how when the rail road was completed it was turned over to the Japanese by the Koreans and the living conditions improved. the three cemeteries and a beautiful system of stairs and ramps down to Hells Fire Pass is all constructed and maintained by the Australians. The cemeteries are kept up in beautiful condition. It is a trip well worth taking. Just about a two hour drive out of Bangkok.

[ABCer]

And where did Thais capture these prisoners? Give us some facts. Thanks in advance.

Thais didn't capture any prisoners during WW2, the Japanese caught them in Singapore and elsewhere and sent them to work on the transport line to Burma (aka Death Railway). Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2, and officially allied with Japan, but very few Thais took part in either of the world wars. The article is correct in that, compared to many other parts of Asia, Thailand endured few hardships during the war. The building of the railway was by far the worst thing that happened in Thailand, but Allied POWs and forced laborers from Malaysia, India, Burma and elsewhere bore the brunt of it. Thais were basically bystanders.

Mirror on the wall, who is the bravest of them all?

So, it is possible to declare war and not to go to it?

So, it is possible to be occupied by allied forces?

So, it is possible to have never been occupied by a winning enemy?

It was not rape, your Honour! It was consensual sex!

True, I came with intention to rape, but she agreed before I succeeded...

[Commander Tamson]

I think I once read something similar, only that was about the Aryan race.

Joe Stalin tried a similar approach in schools, his photo was on every wall, etc.

Kim Dong Il has the same.

I wonder where the idea came from and when it was instituted?

Hardly the same!!! Come-on!!!

Every house and public office gets a picture. What's the difference. I am not going into why its there and who came up with the idea in Thailand because I know the reason.

We now have a giant 7 foot picture of Rama 5 in a gold frame in our living room. Several family members conspired to buy it and mount it on the wall before I knew about it. Not that I don't like pictures of the King, but it was a significant redistribution of family wall space. They removed my rather small original print of Rama 5 on the Throne with his entire cabinet. The upside is Rama 5 gets a small glass of hot coffee and tea first thing every morning and I get to drink the coffee not apportioned to him. My first words in the morning are often, has Rama 5 had breakfast yet? Where does it come from?, the heart.

From the heart or the hope that they'll win the lottery next week

[digibum]

I believe the whole Thai educational system needs a complete overhaul. Thai's are the most backward race I have ever come into contact with.

Commerce expects 2 Degree's, however, in reality they are not worth the paper they are written on.

The lack of real educated individuals Teaching these Students, coupled with over 80% of Thai's cannot communicate in English ensure's Thai's will always be servants to the western world.

You must be under the impression that the failure of the Thai education system is a mistake.

The battle in Thailand right now is between:

Group A: Who owns the vast majority of all farmable land (in a country that derives a good portion of its GDP from farming) and-or sells cheap labor to the rest of the world and thus benefits from keeping people poor, uneducated, cut off from the rest of the world in terms poor English skills to understand what everyone else in the world knows.

Group B: Who knows how to tap into the lack of education and the absence critical thought process being taught in schools in order to win elections and sprinkle a few crumbs around while they loot the country.

Notice how neither of those two has a vested interest in teaching people to think for themselves?

It's not like education is some closely guarded secret by the western world. Seeing as how Thailand is a hub of copying things they could easily duplicate an educational system that resembled US or UK standards.

In 2009, Thailand spent more, as a percentage of GDP, on education than:

Switzerland

Norway

Denmark

USA

Ireland

Sweden

Philippines

UK

Israel

Canada

Belgium

Finland

The Netherlands

Germany

France

Starting to see a reverse correlation here?

Thailand's educational system is not intended to educate. It's indoctrination. That's why they spend so much on it and see themselves falling behind, educationally, to countries spending far, far, far less then they do. Everyone who is anyone in Thailand benefits from keeping the educational system a joke.

[Rorri]

digibum, on 19 May 2014 - 13:04, said:

Commander Tamson, on 19 May 2014 - 12:59, said:

digibum, on 19 May 2014 - 12:46, said:

Commander Tamson, on 19 May 2014 - 12:14, said:

The fact that the head of the Ministry of Culture would say that the reason they shot down a proposal to make English the official second language of Thailand because "some people" might wrongly assume Thailand had once been a colonized says pretty much all that needs to be said in terms of how strongly this is implanted into the Thai psyche.

And unless their attitude towards English as a 2nd language changes very quickly, their integration / contribution and benefit from the AEC will be minimal. But hey! By all accounts Thailand will be its hub!?!

Sure, as long as everyone agrees to speak Thai :-)

Oh dear, another one who fails to understand, English is THE international language of business... Thai is NOT, sorry.

[Commander Tamson]

And where did Thais capture these prisoners? Give us some facts. Thanks in advance.

Thais didn't capture any prisoners during WW2, the Japanese caught them in Singapore and elsewhere and sent them to work on the transport line to Burma (aka Death Railway). Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2, and officially allied with Japan, but very few Thais took part in either of the world wars. The article is correct in that, compared to many other parts of Asia, Thailand endured few hardships during the war. The building of the railway was by far the worst thing that happened in Thailand, but Allied POWs and forced laborers from Malaysia, India, Burma and elsewhere bore the brunt of it. Thais were basically bystanders.

Mirror on the wall, who is the bravest of them all?

So, it is possible to declare war and not to go to it?

So, it is possible to be occupied by allied forces?

So, it is possible to have never been occupied by a winning enemy?

It was not rape, your Honour! It was consensual sex!

True, I came with intention to rape, but she agreed before I succeeded...

Actually it was Britain that Thailand declared war on in WWII. As a consequence Britain then had to invade Thailand. The actual invasion was a polite knock on the palace door and the now famous words - Al right tinkerbell you're nicked!

[atyclb]

"In recent years and months, I have given numerous presentations on the controversial concept of Thai exceptionalism. Many western scholars take issue with this notion, which they consider elitist and argue that it contributes to Thais felling superior to their neighbours in Asia."

This shows a basic misunderstanding of the most simple psychology. Thais have a superiority complex, that much is true. However, as any high-school psychology student can tell you, a superiority complex is not due to actually feeling superior. It is, in fact, due to the very opposite.

"Superiority complex is a psychological defense mechanism in which a person's feelings of superiority counter or conceal his or her feelings of inferiority.[1] The term was coined by Alfred Adler (February 7, 1870 – May 28, 1937), as part of his School of Individual psychology. It was introduced in his series of books, including "Understanding Human Nature" and "Social Interest"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex

The reality is that most Thais feel woefully inadequate to their neighbours, who have long since overtaken them in terms of economic success, political stability, openness to the outside world, cultural richness and, above all, educational achievement. Since Thailand seems to be falling further behind other countries in the region every year, these deep-seated feelings of inadequacy (masked by a superiority complex) will only continue to worsen for Thailand in the coming decade.

While i agree with you about the psychologic basis for many a superiority complex I question the thai ability or lack there of to even be aware of progress in neighbor countries. there does not even exist a very basic "situational awareness" often.

[mancub]

Is this the "Exceptionalism " that is mirrored by those on Thai Visa whose sole purpose appears to be to cry "Thai Bashing" at every opportunity.?

[KarenBravo]

And where did Thais capture these prisoners? Give us some facts. Thanks in advance.

Thais didn't capture any prisoners during WW2, the Japanese caught them in Singapore and elsewhere and sent them to work on the transport line to Burma (aka Death Railway). Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2, and officially allied with Japan, but very few Thais took part in either of the world wars. The article is correct in that, compared to many other parts of Asia, Thailand endured few hardships during the war. The building of the railway was by far the worst thing that happened in Thailand, but Allied POWs and forced laborers from Malaysia, India, Burma and elsewhere bore the brunt of it. Thais were basically bystanders.

Mirror on the wall, who is the bravest of them all?

So, it is possible to declare war and not to go to it?

So, it is possible to be occupied by allied forces?

So, it is possible to have never been occupied by a winning enemy?

It was not rape, your Honour! It was consensual sex!

True, I came with intention to rape, but she agreed before I succeeded...

Actually it was Britain that Thailand declared war on in WWII. As a consequence Britain then had to invade Thailand. The actual invasion was a polite knock on the palace door and the now famous words - Al right tinkerbell you're nicked!

Nope. It was the UK AND the USA.

[Commander Tamson]

And where did Thais capture these prisoners? Give us some facts. Thanks in advance.

Thais didn't capture any prisoners during WW2, the Japanese caught them in Singapore and elsewhere and sent them to work on the transport line to Burma (aka Death Railway). Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2, and officially allied with Japan, but very few Thais took part in either of the world wars. The article is correct in that, compared to many other parts of Asia, Thailand endured few hardships during the war. The building of the railway was by far the worst thing that happened in Thailand, but Allied POWs and forced laborers from Malaysia, India, Burma and elsewhere bore the brunt of it. Thais were basically bystanders.

Mirror on the wall, who is the bravest of them all?

So, it is possible to declare war and not to go to it?

So, it is possible to be occupied by allied forces?

So, it is possible to have never been occupied by a winning enemy?

It was not rape, your Honour! It was consensual sex!

True, I came with intention to rape, but she agreed before I succeeded...

Actually it was Britain that Thailand declared war on in WWII. As a consequence Britain then had to invade Thailand. The actual invasion was a polite knock on the palace door and the now famous words - Al right tinkerbell you're nicked!

Nope. It was the UK AND the USA.

Yes, war was declared on the US, but the then Thai ambassador to the US never delivered the declaration. And thus they were never officially at war!!!!!! ONLY with Britain!!!!!!!

Hence the later Sweeney invasion by the Brits

[MrY]

One has to wonder why a person who didn't feel threatened or inferior to Thais find such a need to constantly try to paint a negative light on Thais and Thailand. If somebody really felt Thais were inferior there would be no reason to say anything unless you are the type of person that needs to constantly remind everyone that you are smarter than the retarded kid down the street. Many of the comments here seem no different than an insecure man being jealous of a handsome and well built male and needing to comment that the male is surely gay.

If I didn't think Thailand was exceptional then I would be a fool for building a life that included living here.

That is only true if you consider Thais to be the retarded kid down the street and feel that they are beyond critique due to their true inferiority. If you believe them to be more than that, then your argument seems to lose weight rather quickly.

Many, if not most, of the issues many of us discuss, have averse effects on Thais, not only in the present sense, but going forward. Refusing to take corrective actions, especially on a governmental level, because you refuse to see yourself as anything other than exceptional, can result in dire consequences.

Your second argument, which actually has no logical connection to your "retarded kid down the street" argument, is called jealousy. And while it may be caused by insecurity, I doubt many people wish any of the things that are wrong with Thailand upon themselves.

While Thailand may be exceptional in many ways, it's seriously screwed up in many ways as well.

What I always find somewhat amusing is that, in many ways, it is us who benefit from Thailand's woes. If the people who write comments which you find to be exhibiting an inferiority complex were, at all, self-interested, they would shut their mouths and let Thailand drive the bus off the cliff.

Very well articulated, Sir!

[marko kok prong]

i find it interesting in the Honourable Professors article,there seems to be no mention of the concept of Face,which in my opnion is the biggest single thing wrong with Thailand,; no one can compromise because they loose face hence the present political problems,people would rather tell a lie than lose face,people won't say i did wrong,because they lose face,etc,etc,etc.

Edited May 19, 2014 by marko kok prong

[noodle]

'Exceptionalism'.

Judging by the number of states whose politicians claim exceptionalism, it would appear likely that there are an exceptional number of definitions of the word:)

[DrTuner]

I'm waiting for the day Thais realize most of their current culture has been forced down on them by the military since the end of the absolute monarchy. The backlash might be entertaining. The cultural mandates were news to the few Thais I've showed them, not included in history lessons.

[davehowden]

I'm waiting for the day Thais realize most of their current culture has been forced down on them by the military since the end of the absolute monarchy. The backlash might be entertaining. The cultural mandates were news to the few Thais I've showed them, not included in history lessons.

Post deleted for being too specific.

Edited May 19, 2014 by davehowden

[ABCer]

Bravo, KarenBravo!

Commendations, Commander Tamson!

First time for a long period I

really enjoy TV discussions

really learn here something new.

No, this time I'm not being sarcastic... though usually I am.

Oh, yes, one more thing. At some stage the discussion was concerned with richness, precision, descriptive and multi-shaded colours of Thai language.

Can not participate for lack of knowledge of this language.

But having spent many years in translations (I'm bilingual) I have noticed that no language beats English in precision and 'compactness'.

Did anybody have a chance to compare the length of English text with its Thai translation? On average it is 1 to 2 ratio of printed text.

Any ideas as to what it amounts to?

Edited May 19, 2014 by ABCer