Thai Police say no high-level politicians found involved in rice mortgage graft yet

[englishoak]

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

Edited June 1, 2014 by englishoak

[Thai at Heart]

So you say it's not clear whether Thaksin and his PT government are guilty of incompetence or corruption... or maybe both?

One thing does seem quite clear though, Thailand is better off without them.

edit typo

Its not illegal to be incompetent. I wish they could apply that to Gordon brown but alas.

Its not illegal to splurge public money.

It is illegal to embezzle public money though.

According to the scheme, the money should have either been sitting in government coffers / banks or it should have been in rice-depositors' bank accounts. One or the other.

It has been painfully apparent that neither was the case (bar a lucky portion of the latter) so . . . where's the money?

The vast majority of it is sitting in a gigantic pile of unsold rice, slowly going mouldy.

No, that's rice. I'm talking about money that was meant to pay depositors for it.

1. Govt (to farmers) : you give me rice, I give you money

2. Farmers : here's the rice, money please . . .

3. Govt : sorry, please wait a moment

4. Govt (to state finances) : give us some more money please . . .

5. State finances : . . . but but . . but we just gave you an increase in the budget and the farmers haven't been paid yet

6. Govt : just give us the money . . .

It's not a 'pay-as-you-sell' scheme, it's a 'pay-as-you-stockpile' scheme, which means the money should already be there to pay for the stockpiling without any sale intended until the stockpiling is over.

They bought it for 1000, then they processed it which made it then cost 2000, but the world sale price is only 900.

This is using illustrative figures. As far as I have read the beat quality stuff has cost them about 27000 baht per tonne but the sale price fob bangkok is only 14000.

They have still millions of tonnes of rice unsold so the loss has yet to be realised.

Get me drift. This is before any corruption. That is where the vast majority of the so called loss has gone. At that level it was never going to be self funding.

So, is it illegal to have over paid the farmer? No. Is it illegal to have paid a processing and storage fee? No.

What is the product sitting in warehouse gojng to lose them? Probably between 700 and 1500 baht to be every tonne at FOB.

How may tonnes? 60,000,000 to 90,000,000 so far.

Just focus on the emboldened.

It's not illegal to over pay the farmer, but it is illegal not to pay them at all.

Why were they not paid? "No money"

But you had a budget. You even got an increase over and above the original budget despite misgivings from the Bank of Thailand! "... can we have some more money please?"

Why is there no money? "Don't know"

If they hadn't called the election and got stymied as an interim govt, they would have got paid.

So, do you agree its possible there hasn't been billions missapropriated from this deal?

Then please explain why :

1. Payments to farmers stopped months before parliament was dissolved.

2. Extra budget was requested as input into the scheme months and months before any protests, despite the fact that there was no output in the form of payments to farmers.

Let me put it this way. If I give you some money to buy beer and you come back half an hour later without any beer, asking for for more money, what am I supposed to say or think?

Because they couldn't sell the stuff they had in the warehouse and they hadn't organised borrowing to make up the difference.

They turned money into rice they couldnt sell. I am not saying there is some dodgy stuff , but the screaming they stole billions needs to be proven because the vast majority of this loss is explained simply by the mechanism of the system.

[Robby nz]

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

There were many dodgy things that were reported and some that were confirmed.

For instance, it was confirmed that rice was brought into the scheme from Cambodia and Lao and probably from the other direction as well.

It was reported that high quality (fragrant) rice was taken from the middle of the stacks in at least one warehouse and sold then replaced with low quality rice. The high quality rice on the outside was left intact. I remember seeing photos and a video of this happening so it could probably be said to be confirmed.

At one time the millers did say that they had not been paid.

At one time the Bank also said they had not received their commission. I may be wrong but I understood they deducted that from the first money that was raised to pay the farmers before the farmers were paid.

There were reports of trucks of Nuttawat transport moving rice from one warehouse to another without explanation.

There is also the Thai company owned by the "Monkey on a rope" and his wife which was involved in the non existent G 2 G deal, and apparently others.

I suspect the NACC will be looking into these and many others, we wait to see the results.

[resurgance2001]

Many on here wouldn't bother about evidence , procedure, trial. Pronouncements of guilt already made, just move straight to the penalty phase. True proponents of fairness and real democracy.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[AZBill]

Never attending meetings! Approving large expenditures without knowing what's going on! Being generally clueless! Obama would be in big trouble in Thailand!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

There were many dodgy things that were reported and some that were confirmed.

For instance, it was confirmed that rice was brought into the scheme from Cambodia and Lao and probably from the other direction as well.

It was reported that high quality (fragrant) rice was taken from the middle of the stacks in at least one warehouse and sold then replaced with low quality rice. The high quality rice on the outside was left intact. I remember seeing photos and a video of this happening so it could probably be said to be confirmed.

At one time the millers did say that they had not been paid.

At one time the Bank also said they had not received their commission. I may be wrong but I understood they deducted that from the first money that was raised to pay the farmers before the farmers were paid.

There were reports of trucks of Nuttawat transport moving rice from one warehouse to another without explanation.

There is also the Thai company owned by the "Monkey on a rope" and his wife which was involved in the non existent G 2 G deal, and apparently others.

I suspect the NACC will be looking into these and many others, we wait to see the results.

In a crop of 25000000 tons the options are endless. If its corrupt there should be thousands of cases. Thousands.

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion
The extra 270 billion
The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value
How much rice has been sold and for how much
How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.
Who this has been paid to.
How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)
Who have they been paid to and why.
And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

There were many dodgy things that were reported and some that were confirmed.

For instance, it was confirmed that rice was brought into the scheme from Cambodia and Lao and probably from the other direction as well.

It was reported that high quality (fragrant) rice was taken from the middle of the stacks in at least one warehouse and sold then replaced with low quality rice. The high quality rice on the outside was left intact. I remember seeing photos and a video of this happening so it could probably be said to be confirmed.

At one time the millers did say that they had not been paid.

At one time the Bank also said they had not received their commission. I may be wrong but I understood they deducted that from the first money that was raised to pay the farmers before the farmers were paid.

There were reports of trucks of Nuttawat transport moving rice from one warehouse to another without explanation.

There is also the Thai company owned by the "Monkey on a rope" and his wife which was involved in the non existent G 2 G deal, and apparently others.

I suspect the NACC will be looking into these and many others, we wait to see the results.

In a crop of 25000000 tons the options are endless. If its corrupt there should be thousands of cases. Thousands.

Well help is at hand to fully understand, fabie will be along soon with full, clear and total accounting to prove there were no dirty dealings whatever and prove that all accounts and documents are fully transparent.

Edited June 1, 2014 by scorecard

[seajae]

really have to wonder at the mentallity of these police officers that are still trying to protect their boss and his cronies, looks like there may be even more positions that need to be filled shortly. These idiots just cant stop thinking of their payments for their "protection" of the shins, pity they are not able to actually conduct any sort of investigation, just issue assumptions based on the size of their envelopes.

[Thai at Heart]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

There were many dodgy things that were reported and some that were confirmed.

For instance, it was confirmed that rice was brought into the scheme from Cambodia and Lao and probably from the other direction as well.

It was reported that high quality (fragrant) rice was taken from the middle of the stacks in at least one warehouse and sold then replaced with low quality rice. The high quality rice on the outside was left intact. I remember seeing photos and a video of this happening so it could probably be said to be confirmed.

At one time the millers did say that they had not been paid.

At one time the Bank also said they had not received their commission. I may be wrong but I understood they deducted that from the first money that was raised to pay the farmers before the farmers were paid.

There were reports of trucks of Nuttawat transport moving rice from one warehouse to another without explanation.

There is also the Thai company owned by the "Monkey on a rope" and his wife which was involved in the non existent G 2 G deal, and apparently others.

I suspect the NACC will be looking into these and many others, we wait to see the results.

In a crop of 25000000 tons the options are endless. If its corrupt there should be thousands of cases. Thousands.

Well help is at hand to fully understand, fabie will be along soon with full, clear and total accounting to prove there were no dirty dealings whatever and prove that all accounts and documents are fully transparent.

On a volume this big over a 3 year period, the mould losses will probably be 5,000,000,tons. Maybe 10%.

So trying to find a loss of 3mn in fraud when mold might be more is ridiculous. 3mn can be lost or gained by buying overly wet rice.

[Robby nz]

On a volume this big over a 3 year period, the mould losses will probably be 5,000,000,tons. Maybe 10%.

So trying to find a loss of 3mn in fraud when mold might be more is ridiculous. 3mn can be lost or gained by buying overly wet rice.

There would be a big difference between loss and missing.

I suspect that the 3 million or what ever tons that was quoted as missing was actual rice that had disappeared from inventories.

You are correct TaH there will no doubt be many tons that are lost through deterioration, fire, flood, and shoddy handling but I suspect that will be very different from that which is said to be missing, that is no longer there.

Remember this was a number that came up in a report from the lady from the finance ministry.

[Trembly]

'Word on the street (facebook, actually)' . . . is that former Commerce Minister Boonsong Teriyapirom is singing like a bird and has fingered Yaowapa as the mastermind behind the rice scheme all along from start to finish.

I know the usual caveats about believing things on Facebook, but if true . . .

Edited June 2, 2014 by Trembly

[Mondy]

The theory.

There was at the start a fund of 500 billion put aside to pay for the scheme. This was supposed to be a revolving fund from which money was paid out to the farmers and all the other expenses like milling, storage, cartage ETC.

There would then be sales of rice out of the stocks bought to all the world who would be pleading with Thailand for rice as there would be a world shortage.

The high price obtained would then be fed back into the revolving fund to be paid out to the farmers for subsequent years crops forever and ever with huge profits.

The reality.

The 500 billion ran out very quickly as no or very little rice was sold, and with no real accounting as to where it went.

The Govt asked for and got another 270 billion to top up the fund to pay for the next seasons crop.

Then along came the protests over other indiscreet moves by the Govt and the house was dissolved.

At that point the 270 billion had disappeared into the 500 billion and many of the farmers had still not been paid.

This non payment was estimated at 130 billion, frantic attempts at raising this money mostly failed and we find ourselves in the present position of the Army ordering the finance ministry to find the money to pay the farmers.

So the cost.

The original 500 billion

The extra 270 billion

The estimated130 billion

Total 900 billion.

What now needs to be resolved.

How much rice is still in storage and realistic value

How much rice has been sold and for how much

How much has been paid to ; the farmers, the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities and anything I haven't mentioned.

Who this has been paid to.

How much has been paid in commissions.(BAAC and others)

Who have they been paid to and why.

And anything else I haven't mentioned.

Once this has been determined and a total of pay-outs determined then there will remain the question :

Where did the rest go ?

The Audit office with the data they have has already said the loss to the country MAY be less than 500 billion.

I would suspect the mills, the cartage contractors, the storage facilities have probably been paid seeing as there hasnt been any of them protesting, maybe the mills at some point but i forget . That would also have to come out of funds.

im not going to going to be surprised whatever the finding, One thing im certain of tho, it wont be just PTP members if there has been pilfering, i suspect mills and traders have been selling some of the rice out the back door and in deals as soon as they got it..

There were many dodgy things that were reported and some that were confirmed.

For instance, it was confirmed that rice was brought into the scheme from Cambodia and Lao and probably from the other direction as well.

It was reported that high quality (fragrant) rice was taken from the middle of the stacks in at least one warehouse and sold then replaced with low quality rice. The high quality rice on the outside was left intact. I remember seeing photos and a video of this happening so it could probably be said to be confirmed.

At one time the millers did say that they had not been paid.

At one time the Bank also said they had not received their commission. I may be wrong but I understood they deducted that from the first money that was raised to pay the farmers before the farmers were paid.

There were reports of trucks of Nuttawat transport moving rice from one warehouse to another without explanation.

There is also the Thai company owned by the "Monkey on a rope" and his wife which was involved in the non existent G 2 G deal, and apparently others.

I suspect the NACC will be looking into these and many others, we wait to see the results.

In a crop of 25000000 tons the options are endless. If its corrupt there should be thousands of cases. Thousands.

Well help is at hand to fully understand, fabie will be along soon with full, clear and total accounting to prove there were no dirty dealings whatever and prove that all accounts and documents are fully transparent.

On a volume this big over a 3 year period, the mould losses will probably be 5,000,000,tons. Maybe 10%.

So trying to find a loss of 3mn in fraud when mold might be more is ridiculous. 3mn can be lost or gained by buying overly wet rice.

Do they really have to take an account of rice now?? It was reported to Yingluck in 2012 and the woman was fired. There is a paper trail and witnesses who can testify to the discrepancies. People who counted that stuff for a living......until fired of course. Forensic auditors will have the tools they need if the goal is to get to the truth.

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