Ratchawhitee rd late at night, weird goings on.

[northernjohn]

You are young and can be excused. I remember when smoking in public buildings could often be worse than the air in the street. At three packs a day I can remember being in rooms where I could hardly stand it. Today it is no where near the problem it was.

Not sure about here but back home it was the insurance industry that started off the no smoking in buildings. then the law got on the band wagon.

Young?? Not really any more! I recall pubs with smoking in, offices and planes with smoking in and so on.

I will still argue that all the second-hand smoking in the world causes minimal damage when compared to what the combustion of oil does to us.

Interesting point made about the insurance industry. I'm waiting for the same situation to impose itself upon the food and medical industries which are killing so many millions of people far sooner than they need to be killed or die. I believe we're coming quite close to the tipping point where the fantastic profits to be made from beef, sugar, pills is going to be outweighed by the ability for insurance companies to carry the can.

Er, something like that anyway.

Don't hold your breath. The medical insurance will just get more expensive the longer you live.

Are you suggesting we change from Beef to wild life.

[femi fan]

no, just stop eating beef, and reduce water consumption, oil consumption, food consumption by half. Eat extra non-meat foods to replace the beef.

Edited June 28, 2014 by femi fan

[Ulysses G.]

I have pretty much stopped eating beef in Thailand, not to be a goody-two-shoes, but rather because it is so lousy.

[Mapguy]

mapguy...

The cigarette argument that you present is spurious and has no merit standing alone. I agree about the damage the smoke does to all who are exposed to it, but i would suggest the second-hand smoke damage to anybody's health is reallly rather minimal when compared to what the combustion engine contributes to the air we depend upon for our very lives.

Then of course there's the energy, food resources, and water resources required to feed the cattle to provide the burgers. Estimates say that in the US about half of all of those are used up rearing cattle, not to mention the crimes against the Amazon rainforest which is largely cut down for beef production. Not to mention the crimes that humans commit against living animals (life forms every bit as much as humans)… something like 75 billion animals slaughered in the US alone per year so humans can eat their meat (figures for ten years ago).

Eating foods like refined sugar and flour will cause, through years of accumulation like cigarette smoking, terrible illness and disease, which is dealt with by hospitals and taxpayers.

Then there's the massive bills footed by taxpayers in places like the US and UK whose governments love to wage war so that their corporations can get huge contracts making the weapons and then rebuliding the infrastructure that said weapons smash up.

I could go on and on and on with heaps more examples. My point is there are myriad ways that one human being imposes themselves on others. It's a fact of life. The only way that you or me or anyone can claim any moral highground is by measuring our personal carbon footprint.

As for victimless crimes that you also mention, there must be hundreds and thousands of them. I say this with confidence because in places like UK and EU countries there are tens of thousands of laws, and many of them are put into place simply as control mechanisms and to encourage sheepleness. Thank you.

Sorry, perhaps my example of smoking was not a strong one. It came to mind at the time. My point was the collateral impact of such behavior societally, as in individual reliance of people on public health systems due to subsequent illness. The other point was the lack of regard of smokers for others downwind or inside.

My goodness! I hadn't read this response before posting about your concerns with foods elsewhere. You anticipated the hamburger issue! Keep your head down on TV Chiang Mai!

I don't disagree at all about most of the concerns you have expressed, but "heaps" indeed. You seem all lathered up with no purposeful direction, and, if I recall properly, you were initially concerned with exercising your individual right (or that of others) to sit down in the road and enjoy a beer.

"Hundreds and thousands" of victimless crimes." "Tens of thousands?" That's a bit vague, isn't it, or are you counting all pedestrian crosswalk and parking ordinances?

"Control mechanisms?" Well, yes, actually, the idea is to regulate individual behavior for the good of others. Annoying? Some of them, certainly. Repressive? Get real!

[Mapguy]

So, UG and femi fan, let us hear more about "victimless crimes."

Who said anything about smoking in public? Second hand smoke can makes someone a victim. I am talking about things like prostitution between consenting adults, possession of soft dugs such as marijuana, adult pornography and gambling. Of course, one can trump up phony justifications about why these are the government's business, but they are not. The truth is that these are victimless crimes and I have no problem with ignoring such unjust laws.

Smoking was not considered "victimless," not hazardous to health for a loooonnnngggg time!

Prostitution (paid consensual sex) is often considered a victimless crime, when it is regulated (which I doubt femi fan would stand for). I think we agree that there is a good argument for regulation and, probably, that lack of regulation very often leads to very serious social problems, such as trafficking and being a profit center for criminals.

I am not so certain about legalization of marjuana, especially without sufficient safeguards There are, for example, some very practical problems these days in Colorado, USA, about the safety of the stuff, even in candy bars, which kids can readily get their hands on. It is an open question as to whether legalization will bankrupt the cartels. I doubt it. To pick another drug of choice, Timothy Leary is gone, so the "magic" of LSD doesn't get much press these days, but I recall innocent people going bonkers on the stuff quite unintentionally or because someone thought it funny to juice up their soft drink.

Adult pornography? Well, the main problem there might be that it is boring. Can someone make a reasonable case that it encourages aberrant sexual conduct like rape? I don't know. I see that you did not include child porn. I would think that you are skating on thin ice when discriminating on possible differences of degree in aberrant results, as adult rape victims might attest to.

Gambling! Oh, boy! A real profit center! Thank you Sheldon Adelson, Steve Wynn and the laws and regulatory authorities that rely on gambling to replace unpopular taxes. Gambling, of course, means betting against the "house," whether it is Sheldon in casinos, which attract many person cheque players as well as high rollers; or in a government-sponsored lottery. Victimless? A lottery, for example, is basically a very regressive form of taxation. Unfortunately, lotteries appeal to many people of low income who piddle away their cash.

Unjust laws? Just laws? I am not as quick to "trump up phony justifications about why some individual behaviors are the government's business," as you might suppose. Perhaps some of these behaviors don't negatively affect you and most of us directly, but, there are consequences that good government, representing and benefitting (we hope!) society at large seems quite justifiably concerned to regulate.

[Ulysses G.]

Smoking was not considered "victimless," not hazardous to health for a loooonnnngggg time!

That was way back when you were in your fifties, before anyone had bothered to do a scientific study on the effects of second hand smoke. However, it has not been a secret since The Surgeon General's 1964 Report on Smoking and Health.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So.. a topic about smoking? Or people in the street after a pub closes..? Or both?

Either way it's really riveting stuff.

I have to drive through there as well on the way from Zoe to Spicy.. just take it slow. Or better, go around one block, how hard is that?

[femi fan]

Sorry, perhaps my example of smoking was not a strong one. It came to mind at the time. My point was the collateral impact of such behavior societally, as in individual reliance of people on public health systems due to subsequent illness. The other point was the lack of regard of smokers for others downwind or inside.

My goodness! I hadn't read this response before posting about your concerns with foods elsewhere. You anticipated the hamburger issue! Keep your head down on TV Chiang Mai!

I don't disagree at all about most of the concerns you have expressed, but "heaps" indeed. You seem all lathered up with no purposeful direction, and, if I recall properly, you were initially concerned with exercising your individual right (or that of others) to sit down in the road and enjoy a beer.

"Hundreds and thousands" of victimless crimes." "Tens of thousands?" That's a bit vague, isn't it, or are you counting all pedestrian crosswalk and parking ordinances?

"Control mechanisms?" Well, yes, actually, the idea is to regulate individual behavior for the good of others. Annoying? Some of them, certainly. Repressive? Get real!

Please stop second guessing how i'm feeling, it's rather irrelevant and i'm just a name posting up my opinions. How can you possibly know if i'm lathered up?

I think my point has been made looking at your reply. You've barely found anything to disagree with, and then at the end start putting words into my mouth/keyboard.

Control mechanisms might be the idea as you say to regulate the individual to satisfy all other people, but theory and practice often diverge sharply. There are so many laws on the books that just make criminals out of people who are not causing anybody any harm. This is my point, please stop twisting it.

The law is often a complete ass. If you can't see that then that surprises me. And if you can see it, what do you do when you come across a stupid law?

[Thighlander]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Edited June 28, 2014 by Thighlander

[heybruce]

A topic on late night on Thanon Ratchawhitee that includes smoking, gambling, prostitution, Afghanistan, beef, pornography, and much else. This is clearly a rocking street!

[femi fan]

The street itself has much more value than this thread!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

In short, it makes Loy Kroh look like the Champs-Élysées in comparison.

[daoyai]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

[harrry]

I have pretty much stopped eating beef in Thailand, not to be a goody-two-shoes, but rather because it is so lousy.

And with the pork and chicken there is no need to ever take antibiotics as it is already in the food.

[CMHomeboy78]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Excellent point.

The good, the bad, and the ugly all on one street. A microcosm of Chiang Mai itself.

Another point that could be made is that it was one of the main avenues leading to Chiang Mai's Sanam Luang, the heart of the old city, that is no more.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Excellent point.

The good, the bad, and the ugly all on one street. A microcosm of Chiang Mai itself.

Another point that could be made is that it was one of the main avenues leading to Chiang Mai's Sanam Luang, the heart of the old city, that is no more.

Would that be the old government offices in the Three Kings Monument area? Or where the old jail is? Out of curiosity, what is it that is no more?

[Ulysses G.]

I was wondering that too.

[true blue]

maybe many years ago that square was propaly the in place,for partying,only guessing as its certinally busy on sundays there.

[Thighlander]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Bread and potatoes? Good things to come to the tropics for,,,,perhaps you should try Siberia. Euro Diner beer cooler digital thermostat set at 7c....that's 44.6F......that's disgusting.....wouldn't do it in Africa, either.

[CMHomeboy78]

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Excellent point.

The good, the bad, and the ugly all on one street. A microcosm of Chiang Mai itself.

Another point that could be made is that it was one of the main avenues leading to Chiang Mai's Sanam Luang, the heart of the old city, that is no more.

Would that be the old government offices in the Three Kings Monument area? Or where the old jail is? Out of curiosity, what is it that is no more?

Yes, that's the area.

You ask "...what is it that is no more?" Just about everything, with the exception of the old chedi at Yupharat School which was the residence of the Chao Yupharat. That and some other remains of wats are all that is left of what was once the royal administrative center of Chiang Mai.

The residence of the Chao Luang was visited in 1876 by the British railway surveyor, Holt Hallett. His description of the building is not without interest: "Passing from the outer into the inner town, we continued along the main road until we came to the enclosure wall of the palace grounds. The gate of the palace lies 1140 yards from the entrance of the inner town, and leads into an extensive court containing several buildings. The palace faces the gate, and is a substantial one-storied building, slightly Chinese in aspect, with brick walls, plastered over with an excellent cement, and a tiled roof.

Ascending a flight of steps, paved with black tiles, we entered the audience-hall, which occupied the whole front of the building. The floor of the hall is inlaid with various woods, several chandeliers hung from the ceiling, and the walls were painted with frescos done with considerable skill, and adorned with long, narrow, gilt-framed mirrors. The remainder of the furniture consisted of a lounge, an easy-chair, a dozen drawing-room chairs, upholstered in green silk, and a small tea-table. Through the doors leading into the private apartments some elegantly designed carved lattice-work partitions were seen, which served as screens to the interior of the palace."

Much more about the old city is in his book, A Thousand Miles on an Elephant in the Shan States [reprint, White Lotus 1988]. The American missionaries resident in Chiang Mai during the latter half of the 19th century also left some interesting accounts of the Sanam Luang and the royal residences as well.

As late as the 1970s there were some very old Kohn Muang who had vague memories...possibly things they had heard as children... about old Chiang Mai.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Could he be describing the old city hall building?

1876 is well into the modern era for Chiang Mai, after resettlement. So you won't expect any wholesale destruction since?

[CMHomeboy78]

^ Could he be describing the old city hall building?

1876 is well into the modern era for Chiang Mai, after resettlement. So you won't expect any wholesale destruction since?

I think not. Several accounts that I've read from the 1890s and later say that Chao Kawilorot's residence [the one that was visited by Hallett] was demolished.

His successor, Chao Witchaynon, lived somewhere else... I'm not sure where. Possibly on the site that was to become the jail. I think that was once a royal residence of some kind as well.

[dvg]

It was also the US Germany game. It has just finished.

CM Saloon and Sheryles (AKA Holland House) was standing room only on both sides of the street. As soon as the game ended hundreds of people were rushed out of the CM Saloon bar with their drinks that they had purchased in hand.

It was either ditch your new beer or drink it outside.

It is not a new or strange occurrence - its the WC and people are trying to watch the games in English and with a crowd.

This picture was taken after the Dutch game.Sheryle's Restaurant.

You think there's a problem with traffic.

[arunsakda]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Circus pants and body odor are one thing, braless backpacker gals are another. Even the Chinese are getting in on it.

[NancyL]

Well, for a few posts this thread actually had some redeeming value. Now we're back to circus pants, body odor and other things of interest.

[Thighlander]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Circus pants and body odor are one thing, braless backpacker gals are another. Even the Chinese are getting in on it.

Some of those Chinese girls would look good wearing burlap sacks. Plenty of them on Nimman. Can't say the same for the BBC Crowd (bread, biscuits, cake). 5 Large Leos for 199 THB.........anything like that in backpackerland? Didn't think so.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

A lot of this seems to be a case of the elderly being envious of people having fun.

It's the best nightlife area in town.

[true blue]

A lot of this seems to be a case of the elderly being envious of people having fun.

It's the best nightlife area in town.

DSC00440.JPG

zoe yellow,there really isnt much more for farangs,in down town cnx.thais dont behave like that in there places,even though there is ten times more people in there clubs/bars discos.

[true blue]

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Circus pants and body odor are one thing, braless backpacker gals are another. Even the Chinese are getting in on it.

Some of those Chinese girls would look good wearing burlap sacks. Plenty of them on Nimman. Can't say the same for the BBC Crowd (bread, biscuits, cake). 5 Large Leos for 199 THB.........anything like that in backpackerland? Didn't think so.

small bar/shop in yellow in the corner selling three large chang for 129bht.

[CMHomeboy78]

A lot of this seems to be a case of the elderly being envious of people having fun.

It's the best nightlife area in town.

DSC00440.JPG

C'mon Winnie, you're old enough to remember Randy Newman...

"Mama told me not to come, Mama told me not to come - that ain't no way to have fun, son".