French burqa ban upheld by European courts

[transam]

Who has said ALL Muslims are terrorists, I haven't, and a daft assumption.

Now answer, my friend in the UK was told to leave Tesco cos he would not remove his crash helmet for security reasons, YOU think it OK for someone wearing a tent to be allowed to do so. Why..?

[nidieunimaitre]

How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

How in the HELL does the law in the US apply to every state?

Same same, not different.

Ignorant. The USA is one nation. It will never sign any of the biggest UN treaties or conventions and be ruled by another group.

FYI The USA is one nation with 50 states. The laws are very much different in each state due to what is called "states' rights" in all areas of authority not specifically designated to the federal government by the constitution.

So your contractor's license in California is no good in any other state nor is your license to practice medicine or law or many other things. I could go on and on about how there are more independent state laws than there are over abiding federal laws, and how in many ways the states are independent.

The US is a republic of independent states so in total:

YOU are wrong.

Let's stay on topic.

So if a state outlaws or imposes religious symbols, this can not be challenged in the federal (national) court?

[jacky54]

The wearing of this outfit is not a religious requirement and is banned in some Islamic countries. If an Islamic country can ban women going about in public totally disguised then why not western ones. If nothing else it's an important security issue to be able to see people's faces, and we know what group are mainly responsible for this. Islam of course is not just a religion but a financial, political and military way of life and many of those demanding the freedom (as usual) are more interested in sticking two fingers up to the host country rather it being a real expression of piety. No doubt many Muslims in the west who are forever portraying themselves as victims were very surprised at the EU decision. Tough, if you don't like it go and live in an Islamic country, or accept our right to make laws in the interest of the majority and obey them.

[rgs2001uk]

rgs2001uk, re your post 133; what were you on when you posted that?

I'd still like you to tell us how a woman wearing a burqa oppresses you; but know that you wont.

Admit it; your comment that it did was total pony, wasn't it?

I was on a chair, rattan if you must know, thank you very much for your concern.

Correct I wont reply, for the simple reason I cant.

Please provide the post number or post a copy of the post where I said a woman wearing a burqua oppresses me.

Admit it, your comments above are total pony

[chuckd]

How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

How in the HELL does the law in the US apply to every state?

Same same, not different.

Ignorant. The USA is one nation. It will never sign any of the biggest UN treaties or conventions and be ruled by another group.

FYI The USA is one nation with 50 states. The laws are very much different in each state due to what is called "states' rights" in all areas of authority not specifically designated to the federal government by the constitution.

So your contractor's license in California is no good in any other state nor is your license to practice medicine or law or many other things. I could go on and on about how there are more independent state laws than there are over abiding federal laws, and how in many ways the states are independent.

The US is a republic of independent states so in total:

YOU are wrong.

Let's stay on topic.

So if a state outlaws or imposes religious symbols, this can not be challenged in the federal (national) court?

Yes, it can be. Read the First Amendment to the Constitution.

[nidieunimaitre]

So the QUOTE 'ignorant' UNQUOTE one is not me, but rather our Okie from Muskogee?

[chuckd]

So the QUOTE 'ignorant' UNQUOTE one is not me, but rather our Okie from Muskogee?

Not necessarily.

Each state legislature can enact any law they wish and, if it is signed by their Governor, it becomes law in that state, and only that state.

However, each state must comply with the US Constitution as the over riding legal authority.

Your example of a state either outlawing or imposing religious symbols would almost certainly be challenged in Federal court. The First Amendment states in part:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..."

The Constitutionality of your theoretical law would almost certainly be challenged.

If a state passes a law that has no Constitutional questions, there would be little likelihood of a federal challenge ever being made. The state law would stand alone.

You sound like an American with your "Okie" remark. Most Americans are aware of their First Amendment rights.

[7by7]

rgs2001uk, re your post 133; what were you on when you posted that?

I'd still like you to tell us how a woman wearing a burqa oppresses you; but know that you wont.

Admit it; your comment that it did was total pony, wasn't it?

I was on a chair, rattan if you must know, thank you very much for your concern.

Correct I wont reply, for the simple reason I cant.

Please provide the post number or post a copy of the post where I said a woman wearing a burqua oppresses me.

Admit it, your comments above are total pony

In this post

Everyone and anyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, I have no problem with that, my problem stems from the fact when someones elses beliefs impinge on my personal freedom, then I have a problem.

OK, maybe 'oppresses you' is a bit strong, but tell us, how does a woman wearing a burqa impinge upon your personal freedom?

At the same time, maybe you can explain why you feel you have the right to impinge upon her personal freedom by preventing her from so doing?

Remember, it is not burqas which the French law has banned, upheld in the ECtHR; it is face coverings.

So, for example, a chador; which is exactly the same as a burqa except it does not have a veil covering the face, is acceptable under the law.

[7by7]

Isn't paradoxical That I come to live in Thailand to avoid living in Moslim Europe?

Does this answer your (7by7) question: When will you be abiding by your beliefs and returning to your home country?

Europe is not Muslim, and it is unlikely that Muslims will ever be more than a small minority in Europe; even though some European countries have had significant or a majority Muslim population for centuries.

The number of Muslims in Europe has grown from 29.6 million in 1990 to 44.1 million in 2010.34 Europe’s Muslim population is projected to exceed 58 million by 2030. Muslims today account for about 6% of Europe’s total population, up from 4.1% in 1990. By 2030, Muslims are expected to make up 8% of Europe’s population. Although Europe’s Muslim population is growing, Europe’s share of the global Muslim population will remain quite small. Less than 3% of the world’s Muslims are expected to be living in Europe in 2030, about the same portion as in 2010 (2.7%).

Source

Anyway, I can not be am immigrant here, Thai laws forbid.

Permission to stay of maximum 365 days on NON-Immigrant visa, apart for Permanent residency, if you want to go through that (anyway not possible for retired folks) which does not allow you to gain nationality in your lifetime.

Ah, that old excuse.

You live in Thailand; even if your paperwork says that you are not legally an immigrant, to all intents and purposes you are.

It seems you want the right to live in any country you wish, yet want to deny that same right to others.

[Scott]

I have deleted some off-topic, inflammatory posts. This thread is about a stated topic and that what is to be addressed. Where anyone lives, or their status in that country is off-topic. Making a thread into a personal soap box or addressing other posters with baiting remarks will result in a suspension.

Feel free to address the topic, not the posters.

[jacky54]

When talking about the 'freedom' of these women there is a lot of pressure for them to cover up, and there is of course absolutely no 'freedom' when it comes to a woman wanting to leave this pernicious religion. All this talk of freedom seems laughable as no religion impinges on a women's freedom more than Islam. In Islam a woman's word is worth half that of a man, a husband has the right, according to the Koran, to beat his wife. Woman must be segregated from men at the mosque, Woman are often sexually mutilated and forced into arranged marriages, mm not many here complaining about attacks on their freedom from their oppressive religion.

Edited July 9, 2014 by jacky54

[NeverSure]

How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

How in the HELL does the law in the US apply to every state?

Same same, not different.

Ignorant. The USA is one nation. It will never sign any of the biggest UN treaties or conventions and be ruled by another group.

FYI The USA is one nation with 50 states. The laws are very much different in each state due to what is called "states' rights" in all areas of authority not specifically designated to the federal government by the constitution.

So your contractor's license in California is no good in any other state nor is your license to practice medicine or law or many other things. I could go on and on about how there are more independent state laws than there are over abiding federal laws, and how in many ways the states are independent.

The US is a republic of independent states so in total:

YOU are wrong.

Let's stay on topic.

So if a state outlaws or imposes religious symbols, this can not be challenged in the federal (national) court?

So let's stay on topic. I revolted because the formerly sovereign nation allowed itself to become subject to multinational courts.

You replied some irrelevant way about the various states in one nation as if that is "the same." "Same same, not different" you said.

I said that's ignorant, and it is. No one outside the USA is going to impose its laws on the US and the US has proven it by refusing to sign any of the "most important" UN treaties and conventions, and it sure wouldn't subject itself to a EU.

The citizens of the US would bounce those British lawyers around until there was nothing left but the feathers, and then invite them to swim home.

[tartempion]

Dear 7b7,

Europe is not Muslim, and it is unlikely that Muslims will ever be more than a small minority in Europe; even though some European countries have had significant or a majority Muslim population for centuries.

The number of Muslims in Europe has grown from 29.6 million in 1990 to 44.1 million in 2010.34 Europe’s Muslim population is projected to exceed 58 million by 2030. Muslims today account for about 6% of Europe’s total population, up from 4.1% in 1990. By 2030, Muslims are expected to make up 8% of Europe’s population. Although Europe’s Muslim population is growing, Europe’s share of the global Muslim population will remain quite small. Less than 3% of the world’s Muslims are expected to be living in Europe in 2030, about the same portion as in 2010 (2.7%).
Source

A small minority???

From wickipedia

An 2011 estimation by Belgian academic Jan Hertogen shows that more than 900,000^[3] people have a foreign background from Islamic countries.

An 2008 estimation shows^[4] that 6% of the Belgian population, about 628,751, is Muslim, either Sunni, Shia, Alevi, and a small population of Ahmadi. Muslims cover 25.5% of the population of Brussels, 4.0% of Wallonia and 3.9% of Flanders. The majority of Belgian Muslims live in the major cities, such as Antwerp, Brussels and Charleroi.

When you walk the Brussels #1 shopping street Nieuwstraat you will notice that the Caucasians shopping around represent less than 50%. How do you notice that? Not so their faces, rather by the clothes the Muslim people wear. Not burquas or nikabs, rather djellabas. You will also notice the Arab guards protecting the entrances of most of the shops.

With some of Brussels Communes having over 70% of Muslim inhabitants some areas are no longer Caucasian.

An other study predicts Belgium Muslim population will double to 1.150.000 or 10.2% by 2030, check sociologist Jan Hertogen.

Most of them concentrated in Brussels and Antwerp.

That might bring the Brussels Muslim population to over 50%.

Note my Belgian residence is 22kms from downtown Brussels, 15kms to the agglomeration.

I no longer visit Brussels or Antwerp, no need to feel walking in Marrakesh, Never felt at home there.

Edited July 10, 2014 by tartempion

[7by7]

<snip>

An other study predicts Belgium Muslim population will double to 1.150.000 or 10.2% by 2030, check sociologist Jan Hertogen.

10.2% is not a majority, or even a large minority.

I no longer visit Brussels or Antwerp, no need to feel walking in Marrakesh, Never felt at home there.

Doubtless many Thais feel the same about areas of Thailand overrun by westerners!

Especially the increasing numbers of homeless ones: Why are so many Westerners homeless in Thailand?

Doesn't stop you from living in Thailand, though!

But this is way off topic; so to avoid incurring the wrath of Scott, should you want to discuss this further I suggest you PM me or start a new topic.

[7by7]

Neversure,

Before commenting on the EU and ECtHR, I suggest that you learn a little bit about both.

You will see that one of the main states establishing and in favour of transferring powers to both was France!

As the ECtHR has confirmed this French law, I doubt that the French government, or even many French people, will be complaining!

As the ECtHR is an international court, persons, organisations and governments appearing before it can choose to be represented by lawyers from any member state.

[7by7]

When talking about the 'freedom' of these women there is a lot of pressure for them to cover up, and there is of course absolutely no 'freedom' when it comes to a woman wanting to leave this pernicious religion. All this talk of freedom seems laughable as no religion impinges on a women's freedom more than Islam. In Islam a woman's word is worth half that of a man, a husband has the right, according to the Koran, to beat his wife. Woman must be segregated from men at the mosque, Woman are often sexually mutilated and forced into arranged marriages, mm not many here complaining about attacks on their freedom from their oppressive religion.

Have a read of Why are women oppressed in Islamic countries?

There is little point in discussing how well or badly so called 'Islamic countries' are living up to the teachings of Islam, or why. First it is necessary to clear up misunderstandings of what those teachings are.

You should, of course, also read the links from there; like OK then. What are women's rights in Islam?

In a truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

• The right and duty to obtain education.
• The right to have their own independent property.
• The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.
• Equality of reward for equal deeds.
• The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power.
• The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.
• The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
• The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.
• The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).
• The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
• and more...

The Koran does say that in certain circumstances a man may beat his wife, though not harshly. See Does Islam Allow Wife Beating?

Have a look through both the Old and New Testaments and you will find similar verses allowing the same.

This, of course, does not make it right in the modern world.

Men and women are not only separated at mosques but also at Orthodox Jewish synagogues and some Christian Fundamentalist churches. The thinking behind it being that worshippers should concentrate their thoughts on God and not be distracted by members of the opposite sex.

Arranged marriages are a cultural thing, not an Islamic one. People of many faiths throughout the world practice this; although the practice died out among European royalty and aristocracy in the early to mid 20th century. Remember Edward VIII had to abdicate so he could marry the woman of his choice.

Forced marriage is a completely different thing. I can find nothing in the Koran or other Islamic writings which condones it; in fact the opposite, it is forbidden! Forced marriage and Islam.

FGM is a cultural thing which existed long before Islam; indeed most Muslim scholars condemn it; as has been shown many times whenever the subject has been raised on this forum.

The question of apostasy is a tricky one; but remember that the punishment decreed in the Koran applies to both men and women. Like the death penalties which used to exist in Christian countries for blasphemers and similar (how many Catholics were killed by Protestants and vice versa during the Reformation and after?) based upon punishments for same decreed in both the Old and New Testaments.

Many modern Muslims, especially those in the West, are no longer taking these verses literally or argue that they have been misinterpreted and are contradicted by other verses or Hadiths which allow freedom of choice in this matter. Islam, Saudi and apostasy: Does Islamic law really proscribe the death penalty for apostasy?

[transam]

When talking about the 'freedom' of these women there is a lot of pressure for them to cover up, and there is of course absolutely no 'freedom' when it comes to a woman wanting to leave this pernicious religion. All this talk of freedom seems laughable as no religion impinges on a women's freedom more than Islam. In Islam a woman's word is worth half that of a man, a husband has the right, according to the Koran, to beat his wife. Woman must be segregated from men at the mosque, Woman are often sexually mutilated and forced into arranged marriages, mm not many here complaining about attacks on their freedom from their oppressive religion.

Have a read of Why are women oppressed in Islamic countries?

There is little point in discussing how well or badly so called 'Islamic countries' are living up to the teachings of Islam, or why. First it is necessary to clear up misunderstandings of what those teachings are.

You should, of course, also read the links from there; like OK then. What are women's rights in Islam?

In a truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

• The right and duty to obtain education.
• The right to have their own independent property.
• The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.
• Equality of reward for equal deeds.
• The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power.
• The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.
• The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
• The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.
• The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).
• The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
• and more...

The Koran does say that in certain circumstances a man may beat his wife, though not harshly. See Does Islam Allow Wife Beating?

Have a look through both the Old and New Testaments and you will find similar verses allowing the same.

This, of course, does not make it right in the modern world.

Men and women are not only separated at mosques but also at Orthodox Jewish synagogues and some Christian Fundamentalist churches. The thinking behind it being that worshippers should concentrate their thoughts on God and not be distracted by members of the opposite sex.

Arranged marriages are a cultural thing, not an Islamic one. People of many faiths throughout the world practice this; although the practice died out among European royalty and aristocracy in the early to mid 20th century. Remember Edward VIII had to abdicate so he could marry the woman of his choice.

Forced marriage is a completely different thing. I can find nothing in the Koran or other Islamic writings which condones it; in fact the opposite, it is forbidden! Forced marriage and Islam.

FGM is a cultural thing which existed long before Islam; indeed most Muslim scholars condemn it; as has been shown many times whenever the subject has been raised on this forum.

The question of apostasy is a tricky one; but remember that the punishment decreed in the Koran applies to both men and women. Like the death penalties which used to exist in Christian countries for blasphemers and similar (how many Catholics were killed by Protestants and vice versa during the Reformation and after?) based upon punishments for same decreed in both the Old and New Testaments.

Many modern Muslims, especially those in the West, are no longer taking these verses literally or argue that they have been misinterpreted and are contradicted by other verses or Hadiths which allow freedom of choice in this matter. Islam, Saudi and apostasy: Does Islamic law really proscribe the death penalty for apostasy?

Think it time you stopped protecting a religion with a murderous faction........

So "some" Muslims dismiss the naughty bits of "their" written word because they don't like it....

Hypocrisy to the extreme, accept this but not that.............

[7by7]

A religion with murderous factions? Just like Christianity then!

I have never denied that there are terrorists organisations and individuals who use Islam as an excuse for their atrocities. I have never condoned them; in fact the opposite.

Earlier in this topic I gave you a list of terrorist organisations who use Christianity as an excuse for their atrocities in an attempt to show you that people of all faiths do this. You ignored that; no doubt because it conflicts with your worldview.

So "some" Muslims dismiss the naughty bits of "their" written word because they don't like it....laugh.png

Hypocrisy to the extreme, accept this but not that.............cheesy.gif

Do you apply the same word, hypocrisy, to Christians who accept gays into their church as members or priests? Even though homosexuality is proscribed in both the Old and New Testaments and given the death penalty in both?

I suggest that you read the links provided above; but take your prejudiced glasses off first and approach them with an open mind.

Not sure if you will be capable of that, though. As the old saying has it:

You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it drink.
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think!

Edited July 10, 2014 by 7by7

[transam]

A religion with murderous factions? Just like Christianity then!

I have never denied that there are terrorists organisations and individuals who use Islam as an excuse for their atrocities. I have never condoned them; in fact the opposite.

Earlier in this topic I gave you a list of terrorist organisations who use Christianity as an excuse for their atrocities in an attempt to show you that people of all faiths do this. You ignored that; no doubt because it conflicts with your worldview.

So "some" Muslims dismiss the naughty bits of "their" written word because they don't like it....laugh.png

Hypocrisy to the extreme, accept this but not that.............cheesy.gif

Do you apply the same word, hypocrisy, to Christians who accept gays into their church as members or priests? Even though homosexuality is proscribed in both the Old and New Testaments and given the death penalty in both?

I suggest that you read the links provided above; but take your prejudiced glasses off first and approach them with an open mind.

Not sure if you will be capable of that, though. As the old saying has it:

You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it drink.

You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think!

YOU tell me what other religious faction in this day and age is planning to blow up or kill anyone for a religious belief written in a book a zillion years back. ?.

[7by7]

I gave you a list of some earlier in this topic.

Your only response was to accuse me of 'twisting stuff.'

When I asked you how so; you ignored me.

When I asked "Are you saying that the organisations I listed are not Christians, not terrorists or neither?" you ignored me.

When I said to you "You may like to believe that all terrorists are Muslims, but that is simply not true." your only response was to accuse me of saying that you believed all Muslims are terrorists!

[capcc76]

rgs2001uk, re your post 133; what were you on when you posted that?

I'd still like you to tell us how a woman wearing a burqa oppresses you; but know that you wont.

Admit it; your comment that it did was total pony, wasn't it?

Who cares. France has spoken. Take the d@&$ burqa off or go elsewhere. In dact, leave it on and just please go elsewhere so you stop wasting time and resources of and being the scourge of other countries.

You can debate the philosophy behind it all you want. Won't change the law. The place to start if Muslims want respect is stop being the scourge, stop blowing up or plotting to blow up innocent women and children and, for God's sake, start policing your own and taking care of your own in your own countries so there is no need for a mass exedous to other countries to leech of their resources.

[transam]

rgs2001uk, re your post 133; what were you on when you posted that?

I'd still like you to tell us how a woman wearing a burqa oppresses you; but know that you wont.

Admit it; your comment that it did was total pony, wasn't it?

Who cares. France has spoken. Take the d@&$ burqa off or go elsewhere. In dact, leave it on and just please go elsewhere so you stop wasting time and resources of and being the scourge of other countries.

You can debate the philosophy behind it all you want. Won't change the law. The place to start if Muslims want respect is stop being the scourge, stop blowing up or plotting to blow up innocent women and children and, for God's sake, start policing your own and taking care of your own in your own countries so there is no need for a mass exedous to other countries to leech of their resources.

Post of my day, thanks........

[rgs2001uk]

When talking about the 'freedom' of these women there is a lot of pressure for them to cover up, and there is of course absolutely no 'freedom' when it comes to a woman wanting to leave this pernicious religion. All this talk of freedom seems laughable as no religion impinges on a women's freedom more than Islam. In Islam a woman's word is worth half that of a man, a husband has the right, according to the Koran, to beat his wife. Woman must be segregated from men at the mosque, Woman are often sexually mutilated and forced into arranged marriages, mm not many here complaining about attacks on their freedom from their oppressive religion.

Have a read of Why are women oppressed in Islamic countries?

There is little point in discussing how well or badly so called 'Islamic countries' are living up to the teachings of Islam, or why. First it is necessary to clear up misunderstandings of what those teachings are.

You should, of course, also read the links from there; like OK then. What are women's rights in Islam?

In a truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

• The right and duty to obtain education.
• The right to have their own independent property.
• The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.
• Equality of reward for equal deeds.
• The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power.
• The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.
• The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
• The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.
• The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).
• The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
• and more...

The Koran does say that in certain circumstances a man may beat his wife, though not harshly. See Does Islam Allow Wife Beating?

Have a look through both the Old and New Testaments and you will find similar verses allowing the same.

This, of course, does not make it right in the modern world.

Men and women are not only separated at mosques but also at Orthodox Jewish synagogues and some Christian Fundamentalist churches. The thinking behind it being that worshippers should concentrate their thoughts on God and not be distracted by members of the opposite sex.

Arranged marriages are a cultural thing, not an Islamic one. People of many faiths throughout the world practice this; although the practice died out among European royalty and aristocracy in the early to mid 20th century. Remember Edward VIII had to abdicate so he could marry the woman of his choice.

Forced marriage is a completely different thing. I can find nothing in the Koran or other Islamic writings which condones it; in fact the opposite, it is forbidden! Forced marriage and Islam.

FGM is a cultural thing which existed long before Islam; indeed most Muslim scholars condemn it; as has been shown many times whenever the subject has been raised on this forum.

The question of apostasy is a tricky one; but remember that the punishment decreed in the Koran applies to both men and women. Like the death penalties which used to exist in Christian countries for blasphemers and similar (how many Catholics were killed by Protestants and vice versa during the Reformation and after?) based upon punishments for same decreed in both the Old and New Testaments.

Many modern Muslims, especially those in the West, are no longer taking these verses literally or argue that they have been misinterpreted and are contradicted by other verses or Hadiths which allow freedom of choice in this matter. Islam, Saudi and apostasy: Does Islamic law really proscribe the death penalty for apostasy?

I wonder which website this was dragged up form,

In a truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

• The right and duty to obtain education.
• The right to have their own independent property.
• The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.
• Equality of reward for equal deeds.
• The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power.
• The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.
• The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
• The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.
• The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).
• The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
• and more...

Because it certainly bears no resemblance to what I witnessed in 15 years in the land of the prohet.

What I saw were men leaving work early to allow an electrician into the house to work on the a/c, the wife was unable to answer the door for the simple reason the husband had locked her in the bedroom before going to work.

Women unable to travel on their own, women unable to drive a car, women being asked for travel documents before going back to their village for fear they were leaving their wife beating husband.

Men who considered their youngest daughter as a replacement for their wife when she got too old.

Ask any of the the medical staff who work in hospitals about some of the abberations these women give birth to, due to in breeding, quickly thrown into the incinerator, to avoid loss of face.

Ah but thats not Islam is it, its cultural practices.

The medical profession has been asking the same question about inbreeding in the UK, but we aint allowed to talk about it, it might offend them.

Perhaps our American friends could tell us about the blood test laws in America to prevent in breeding.

My mother left the NHS disgusted and went to the private sector, she told a Muslim the reason his liver was shot was because of alcohol, he lost face in front of his pious family.

My mother was pulled in by some lefty type admin staff and told she should be "more sensitive to their cultural needs" and perhaps should go home and reconsider.

My mother told them, perhaps you should advertise for a replacement for me, and walked off the job.

Welcome to PC gone mad Britain.

[jacky54]

Ah yes it's either they are not real Muslims when they are blowing people up, and it's the culture not the religion when oppression and cruelty are concerned. The problem with this is that the culture is the religion and those engaging in jihad are just carrying out the Koranic commands. Where is this 'truly' Islamic country? obviously not Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc, where is it that woman have all these rights? Do they have the right to more than one husband the same as the men? is their word worth the same as a man, do they have the right to beat a husband the same as the husband has to beat them? do they have the right not to marry who they like, come on where is it?

[tartempion]

<snip>

An other study predicts Belgium Muslim population will double to 1.150.000 or 10.2% by 2030, check sociologist Jan Hertogen.

10.2% is not a majority, or even a large minority.

I no longer visit Brussels or Antwerp, no need to feel walking in Marrakesh, Never felt at home there.

Doubtless many Thais feel the same about areas of Thailand overrun by westerners!

Especially the increasing numbers of homeless ones: Why are so many Westerners homeless in Thailand?

Doesn't stop you from living in Thailand, though!

But this is way off topic; so to avoid incurring the wrath of Scott, should you want to discuss this further I suggest you PM me or start a new topic.

Dear 7b7,

obviously you to refuse to understand a few things.

In 2009 29 women were fined in Brussels for wearing a burqua/covering their face.

Thus in Belgium the disputed law is in effect.

I also mentioned that walking the main Brussels shopping street today 2014 Caucasians are in the minority and by 2030 Brussels will be the first Moslim capital in Europe with Moslim population exceeding 50% of total inhabitants, that is not a minority isn't?

Google translation:

29 fines for wearing burqa in Brussels

Wed 17/03/2010 - 18:07 The past year, 29 women in Brussels received a fine on the wearing of the burqa or other garment that completely covers the face. More and more municipalities of Brussels write this because the fines beyond recognition can be a problem for safety. The fines go up to 150 euros.

Edited July 11, 2014 by tartempion

[7by7]

I have never lived in an Islamic country, although I have visited several. This no doubt means according to some I am not qualified to comment.

Doubtless those who say that they have done so spent much of their time in their expat ghettoes, and those who say that they did travel around have made self contradictory posts here about their experiences! Of course, as previously, even when presented with the posts in question they will deny it.

However, I do have Muslim friends here in the UK.

I was at one time well acquainted with the Imam of the local mosque and his family as my daughter was at school with, and a friend of, his daughter and attended each others birthday parties etc.; although, as often happens, since leaving school they have drifted apart; mainly through going to university in different parts of the country. (Yes, the Imam's daughter goes to university! So much for oppressing Muslim women and denying them education.)

None of the males beat their wives, none of the females feel oppressed. None of either sex want to establish Sharia law or a Muslim caliphate in the UK.

Most of them were born in the UK, many to parents who themselves were born in the UK. I wonder how far back posters here can trace their ancestry before they come across an immigrant. I doubt that anyone will find none.

None of them are leeching the system; all of them work or study; depending on their age.

All of them condemn atrocities such as the 7/7 bombings and the murder of Lee Rigby.

Yes, it is true that many, not all, tend to live in one area; but so do many groups, Orthodox Jews in North London, Westerners in Thailand, for example.

There are many reasons for this; one of which being the reluctance of the indigenous population to accept immigrants into their midst.

What is obvious from the preceding posts is that some people here will not change their views. These peoples' prejudices are so entrenched that they refuse to believe anything which conflicts with that prejudice; no matter the source.

Instead they lap up the propaganda from Islam hating sources; propaganda which is almost always shown to be lies; such as the 'banning' of Christmas in Birmingham; something which never happened and was never sought by anyone, let alone Muslims. the liars bring this up time after time as if it were Holy Writ, even though it has been proven to be a lie.

No one who knows anything about the world will deny that there are Muslims who are terrorists, Muslims who pervert their religion for their own ends, who want to impose their views on others.

But the same is true of many religions, especially the Abrahamic ones. Earlier in the topic Transam asserted that only Muslims wanted to bomb innocent people. I showed him this was untrue and gave some example of Christian terrorist groups; but this was dismissed as 'twisting stuff!' Here's 'twisting stuff' some more: Christian Terrorism (some of these examples are historical, most contemporary).

No one will deny that there are Islamic states which interpret the Koran and Hadiths literally, too literally. Until recently, in historical terms, the same could be said of some Christian states. Indeed, there are Christian groups in America who want to return to those times; and who have used violence against those who oppose them.

Let's take as an example the Christian attitude to homosexuality.

The prohibition on homosexuality in many books of both the Old and New Testaments was the basis for criminalising it. A law which was not changed in the England and Wales until 1967, Scotland until 1980 and Northern Ireland until 1982; but it wasn't until 2006 that the age of consent for homosexuals in the UK was equalised with that for heterosexuals.

Many Christian groups, including the Catholic church, still condemn this equality. In 2010 Pope Benedict XVI condemned British equality legislation for running contrary to "natural law."

Homosexuality is still illegal in some countries, some of which are Christian, some Muslim, some neither; India, for example. LGBT rights by country or territory

All of which may seem like I have wandered well of topic, so to return to the actual topic of this thread; the so called 'burqa ban,' I have already commented that my opinion, for what it's worth, I am not a lawyer, is that the decision of the ECtHR was correct.

Simply because it is not a burqa ban; it is a ban on all face coverings.

Something the Islam haters here seem to have forgotten in their desire to demonise all Muslims.

[transam]

I have never lived in an Islamic country, although I have visited several. This no doubt means according to some I am not qualified to comment.

Doubtless those who say that they have done so spent much of their time in their expat ghettoes, and those who say that they did travel around have made self contradictory posts here about their experiences! Of course, as previously, even when presented with the posts in question they will deny it.

However, I do have Muslim friends here in the UK.

I was at one time well acquainted with the Imam of the local mosque and his family as my daughter was at school with, and a friend of, his daughter and attended each others birthday parties etc.; although, as often happens, since leaving school they have drifted apart; mainly through going to university in different parts of the country. (Yes, the Imam's daughter goes to university! So much for oppressing Muslim women and denying them education.)

None of the males beat their wives, none of the females feel oppressed. None of either sex want to establish Sharia law or a Muslim caliphate in the UK.

Most of them were born in the UK, many to parents who themselves were born in the UK. I wonder how far back posters here can trace their ancestry before they come across an immigrant. I doubt that anyone will find none.

None of them are leeching the system; all of them work or study; depending on their age.

All of them condemn atrocities such as the 7/7 bombings and the murder of Lee Rigby.

Yes, it is true that many, not all, tend to live in one area; but so do many groups, Orthodox Jews in North London, Westerners in Thailand, for example.

There are many reasons for this; one of which being the reluctance of the indigenous population to accept immigrants into their midst.

What is obvious from the preceding posts is that some people here will not change their views. These peoples' prejudices are so entrenched that they refuse to believe anything which conflicts with that prejudice; no matter the source.

Instead they lap up the propaganda from Islam hating sources; propaganda which is almost always shown to be lies; such as the 'banning' of Christmas in Birmingham; something which never happened and was never sought by anyone, let alone Muslims. the liars bring this up time after time as if it were Holy Writ, even though it has been proven to be a lie.

No one who knows anything about the world will deny that there are Muslims who are terrorists, Muslims who pervert their religion for their own ends, who want to impose their views on others.

But the same is true of many religions, especially the Abrahamic ones. Earlier in the topic Transam asserted that only Muslims wanted to bomb innocent people. I showed him this was untrue and gave some example of Christian terrorist groups; but this was dismissed as 'twisting stuff!' Here's 'twisting stuff' some more: Christian Terrorism (some of these examples are historical, most contemporary).

No one will deny that there are Islamic states which interpret the Koran and Hadiths literally, too literally. Until recently, in historical terms, the same could be said of some Christian states. Indeed, there are Christian groups in America who want to return to those times; and who have used violence against those who oppose them.

Let's take as an example the Christian attitude to homosexuality.

The prohibition on homosexuality in many books of both the Old and New Testaments was the basis for criminalising it. A law which was not changed in the England and Wales until 1967, Scotland until 1980 and Northern Ireland until 1982; but it wasn't until 2006 that the age of consent for homosexuals in the UK was equalised with that for heterosexuals.

Many Christian groups, including the Catholic church, still condemn this equality. In 2010 Pope Benedict XVI condemned British equality legislation for running contrary to "natural law."

Homosexuality is still illegal in some countries, some of which are Christian, some Muslim, some neither; India, for example. LGBT rights by country or territory

All of which may seem like I have wandered well of topic, so to return to the actual topic of this thread; the so called 'burqa ban,' I have already commented that my opinion, for what it's worth, I am not a lawyer, is that the decision of the ECtHR was correct.

Simply because it is not a burqa ban; it is a ban on all face coverings.

Something the Islam haters here seem to have forgotten in their desire to demonise all Muslims.

Gawd 'elp us, how do you know what goes on behind closed doors.?

The killers in this religion are following words written in their book, the words are all there for anyone to read, YET, you seem to make ALL members of this religion to be perfect, YET YOU seem to think all is OK, just a few numnuts WHICH is not the truth. Muslim doctor(s) being paid and living in the UK KILLED innocent folk. Yes or No..............?

Don't come back with excuses please..........

[7by7]

Transam;

Do you actually read what you have written before pressing the 'Post' button?

Maybe you should follow rgs2001uk's advice and take some English comprehension lessons as what you claim I have posted bears absolutely no relation to what I actually wrote!

"Muslim doctor(s) being paid and living in the UK KILLED innocent folk. Yes or No..............?"

What are you on about?

Link, please. Not to one of your Islam hating nut job sites, but a reputable source. Even the Daily Mail would do.

[transam]

Transam;

Do you actually read what you have written before pressing the 'Post' button?

Maybe you should follow rgs2001uk's advice and take some English comprehension lessons as what you claim I have posted bears absolutely no relation to what I actually wrote!

"Muslim doctor(s) being paid and living in the UK KILLED innocent folk. Yes or No..............?"

What are you on about?

Link, please. Not to one of your Islam hating nut job sites, but a reputable source. Even the Daily Mail would do.

My apologies, I should have said University guy(s) who are "British"...........

http://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEUQFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fshared%2Fspl%2Fhi%2Fuk%2F05%2Flondon_blasts%2Finvestigation%2Fhtml%2Fbombers.stm&ei=Pry_U5C2OoK0uASQwICABQ&usg=AFQjCNH3cxsWAKJgtiJAEWcvHBRoID0GRw

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.