Advice needed on debt recovery.

[MonkeyLoo]

Now i know ive been pretty stupid loaning a "friend" 900,000 baht for a business venture in Thailand. Ive known the guy 10 years, loaned him money before but never this amount and always been repaid.

He has basically fled the country saying he aint paying.

I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now.

Has anyone dealt with such an issue before? PMs are welcome.

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[Pattszero]

Where is he?

[MonkeyLoo]

Sydney

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[Pattszero]

Sydney

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Sell the debt.....50%

[MonkeyLoo]

who to?

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[MonkeyLoo]

as we have no signed agreement i dont think that is possible?

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[Pattszero]

In the UK, me

Offer it up for sale at 50% and see if you get any offers. If you fon't - I know a man.

Offer it first because the man I know I will split the next time I see him.

[MonkeyLoo]

In the UK, me

Offer it up for sale at 50% and see if you get any offers. If you fon't - I know a man.

Offer it first because the man I know I will split the next time I see him.

Split next time you see him?

Also where do i offer it for sale?

Thanks

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[rhythmworx]

Yeah if I was in your position I would sell the debt also, plenty of people knocking about that would buy it off you for 50%.

[Pattszero]

OP- my battery is crashing - I have a tax man 2 hours from Sydney - pm me

[wooloomooloo]

You're going to have to face the prospect of never seeing your money or the debtor again.

I very much doubt you could legitimately sell the debt without evidence of a loan agreement. If you manage to sell it to shady people and something untoward happens to the debtor or the shady people then it could be said that you had a hand in illegal activities and possibly worse.

You've been done and that's about it, I'm afraid.

[MonkeyLoo]

You're going to have to face the prospect of never seeing your money or the debtor again.

I very much doubt you could legitimately sell the debt without evidence of a loan agreement. If you manage to sell it to shady people and something untoward happens to the debtor or the shady people then it could be said that you had a hand in illegal activities and possibly worse.

You've been done and that's about it, I'm afraid.

I am prepared to take the loss, however i can see the debtor at any point as i know his exact location.

He would perhaps be better off if it were a third party dealing with collection rather than myself for obvious reasons.

A bad business deal is one thing and can be written off, but a friend ripping off a friend who trusted him is way different.

After all it could be anyone of his creditors that pays him a visit. Im sure im not the only one.

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Edited July 7, 2014 by MonkeyLoo

[wooloomooloo]

I understand your feelings but you should slow down.

Imagine the police knocking on your door one evening and alleging that you sent a heavy to collect the debt and the heavy has been found with a knife in his back or the debtor.

The debtor might also hire someone to pay you and your family a visit if you want to take it further.

Think about it as you can only retrieve this debt by underhand means and it might well bite your butt.

Righteous emotions doesn't mean you'll win.

[Loptr]

Call Tim Sharky in Pattaya, he'll do the recovery for you, for a percentage...

[wooloomooloo]

The debt is, give or take a few quid, £17,000. If the debtor can't be found then the loss to the collector can only go on for so long and therefore the OP is out of pocket, again.

OP - do not indulge in the fantasy world collection agencies that you're being propositioned here on the thread or by PM as you'll only lose again.

I personally don't enjoy the promotion of latent violence and thuggery as this thread now appears to realise.

[krisb]

If you know his exact location in Sydney, can't you ring the police and take him to court using a lawyer to appear on your behalf?

He probably is flat broke and blood out of stone comes to mind in that case.

[wow64]

If you know his address in Sydney take him to court.

You have proof of the loan.. messages and a money transaction. Shouldn't be that hard to prove

He will at least have to show up to court to fight it.

Edited July 7, 2014 by wow64

[Douggie Style]

Collect your evidences, get some advice (on jurisdiction) and issue a statement of claim (not hard or expensive to do) in Sydney, you will either be successful or not, either way it will be noted a claim has issued..that has repercussions (credit agencies pick up on a claim once issued)..some small redress

Edited July 7, 2014 by Douggie Style

[meatboy]

it happened to me in the 80's down in patts.by someone who I thought I could trust.

I knew how to get in touch with him so I just told him if he comes back to Thailand and I found out,he would have a welcoming duo ready to greet him.

[NeverSure]

I don't think you have a binding contract. Australia's contract law is based in English Law just as the USA's is.

If the contract was entered into in Thailand, you have another can of worms for enforcement in Oz.

If enforceable in Oz, law requires 3 elements which you can prove, if you can prove you gave him the money. 1 & 2 are offer and acceptance. There's no other way he got the money other than those two present. 3 is "consideration" which means you gave him the money after the agreement was reached.

But there's also the element of "certainty" which is your problem, even though the contract doesn't have to be in writing:

Certainty:

2. The agreement may be uncertain because the terms are too vague or ambiguous for a meaning to be attributed by a court. 3. A particular promise may be illusory because the contract effectively gives the promisor an unfettered discretion as to whether to perform the promise. LINK

[ATF]

Unfortunately this sort of thing happens too often here. It's usually on some promise that he can double your money in a month or whatever. I'm sure you wouldn't have lent all your money to him so just sit it out and see what happens. People that can make money can always make it back and no good happens to these clowns who rip people off.

Being in Australia it's difficult for him not to be registered somewhere so he'll turn up sooner or later. If he has no money now the debt can't be recovered anyway. If you've known him for a long time you must know where his family lives. So wait and see.

[Seastallion]

I don't think you have a binding contract. Australia's contract law is based in English Law just as the USA's is.

If the contract was entered into in Thailand, you have another can of worms for enforcement in Oz.

If enforceable in Oz, law requires 3 elements which you can prove, if you can prove you gave him the money. 1 & 2 are offer and acceptance. There's no other way he got the money other than those two present. 3 is "consideration" which means you gave him the money after the agreement was reached.

But there's also the element of "certainty" which is your problem, even though the contract doesn't have to be in writing:

Certainty:

2. The agreement may be uncertain because the terms are too vague or ambiguous for a meaning to be attributed by a court. 3. A particular promise may be illusory because the contract effectively gives the promisor an unfettered discretion as to whether to perform the promise. LINK

"Consideration" in contract law means for some form of payment. I think technically if there was no interest or other sort of bonus, the loan is not under verbal contract but is simply a loan between friends.

If this is a correct interpretation and if the case was taken to court, the result may well be a court order to repay at some paltry monthly amount....not worth the lawyers fees and bother.

If I have made the wrong interpretation of "consideration", then your point about uncertainty may well be the factor that makes a court case a waste of time and money.

As the OP said, he can suffer the financial loss. It's retribution he wants.

[Berkshire]

Tough break, OP. Regarding the business venture that your friend went into, is it still operating? Or no trace? In 10 yrs, you guys must have common friends, met his relatives. Can you contact any of them for advice/assistance?

[MonkeyLoo]

The business still operates under Thai control. The guy was basically scammed but also took their side. Thai girl involved etc. A familiar story.

Hes admitted the debt, and made a few token payments so he could get out of the country in one piece.

I do know some of his friends and family who now see him in a different light. Hes far from Mr popular.

I wouldnt be keen to take it through the courts or indeed throw any more money at recovery, but selling the debt would sound like an option.

After that it would be nothing to do with me and i would just forget about it.

But i would certainly pay him a visit if i was in town. I doubt he will be back to Thailand, from what i can gather hes made a few enemies here and is flagged at immigration for taking goods from his apartment when he did his runner.

I thought i knew this guy, just goes to show you cant really trust anyone.

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[GuestHouse]

Tough lesson ... to be learned by someone else.

As I say time and time again.

I generally trust Thai people.

I never trust expats - Period!

[Kwasaki]

quote ' I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now. ' unquote.

If you can take the lost then forget it, his skint anyhow.

As for you trusting !! lesson learnt err !

A good saying comes to mind from a old trusted friend from Yorkshire UK, " niether either be lender or borrower be." or somewhere along those lines.

[submaniac]

Guesthouse is really right. In Thailand the Thais can feed on Thais and Falang. Falang can only feed on other Falang. Anytime it is a Falang and involves a request for money it's just a red flag. It's something about the country people come over to start over again and they just up using their resources and become desperate.

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[MonkeyLoo]

Guesthouse is really right. In Thailand the Thais can feed on Thais and Falang. Falang can only feed on other Falang. Anytime it is a Falang and involves a request for money it's just a red flag. It's something about the country people come over to start over again and they just up using their resources and become desperate.

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Indeed, the guy did want to get something going and had a dream of an easy life.

All hes really achieved is to cause chaos, make many enemies and now hes back to square one in the Sydney rat race, and is looking over his shoulder every second.

What goes around comes around as they say.

In my book, you cant do things like that to friends without repercussions.

His day will come.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

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[96tehtarp]

as we have no signed agreement i dont think that is possible?

Almost every shop, corner store, and mom and pop shop in Thailand sells promissory notes. They cost five baht or less. If you had one of those you could sell the debt.

I always do them, even with fiends and relatives just in case somebody dies before it gets paid back. That's a win-win for everybody.

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma.

[MonkeyLoo]

as we have no signed agreement i dont think that is possible?

Almost every shop, corner store, and mom and pop shop in Thailand sells promissory notes. They cost five baht or less. If you had one of those you could sell the debt.

I always do them, even with fiends and relatives just in case somebody dies before it gets paid back. That's a win-win for everybody.

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma.

Thanks for the advice.

I think that would work in Thailand but hes fled to Australia, a wanted man in Thailand by many i doubt he will return.

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