Thailand - Rule of Law - Do we really want it?

[In Search of Space]

I think it would be much better for the country to be much more strict in imposing/revising existing laws and bringing in new ones where necesssary, certainly transparency and knowing where you stand in a certain situation is better than the unknown, although it is that little bit of unknown that makes the place attractive, so there is a fine line between anarchy and a prison camp.

Certainly the Thai chaps I used to work with were all for a much more organised government with transparency and no corruption, but then they would fall about laughing when some scam was highlighted, but I guess they just had to accept those things and felt that there was nothing that could be done under the present (former) system - I'm talking pre-coup last year.

[Kwasaki]

Rule of Law - Do we really want it?

I think the question should be: Do we want sensible laws that can be applied in a meaningful way within the frame of due processes?

Having having absurd laws is even worse than not enforcing them.

What absurd laws ? As I remember it the law is supposed to be what is reasonable and it's been mess up.

[ATF]

The Law is an Ass - Charles Dickens, Oliver Twist.

No Country's Laws get better than that. It's just up to you to make sure the law favors oneself.

[NoshowJones]

David, I keep saying, and I will say it again, once they come a bit upcountry, and get the drivers with no licence, and the underage children riding motorbikes etc etc, then I will believe they are serious, until then I don't. Thailand is not just Bangkok and Phuket.

[NoshowJones]

My wife is Thai so it does not effect me personally but i have several friends who do not qualify for any visa category besides tourist. these are 20-30 somethings who make/have made very good money, are well educated and intelligent. they don't have or want a Thai wife.

there was an article on thai visa not too long ago by some government official saying they wanted Thailand to become the new hub of internet start ups and it is true that Thailand had all the requirements to be good for that sort of thing... it is unique country because it is affordable, fun, with easy visa regulations.

these 20-40 year old nomadic types are very strongly hated on Thai visa for what reason i do not know, jealousy i guess... apparently on thai visa people take triumph in anything they can, such as qualifying for a retirement visa.

but the response that these "hot shots" should pay 500k baht for an elite card is more like a fantasy than anything else. i mean unless you are rolling in dosh nobody is paying 500k for an elite card.The Thai government could easily go back to not enforcing the rules a year from now and you will have been the only idiot around who paid 500k for a visa. and a lot of shit can happen in 5 years. if they were prorating it annually it'd be more realistic as opposed to 500k upfront for 5 years. the elite card was never created for this explicit purpose more than likely it was designed as a vehicle for political graft, not as a "visa category".

my friends will probably just leave and if we are being honest about it, will probably be better off for it.

I don't get what you at and I couldn't care a hoot what other people do to stay here in Thailand there's a correct way and there's dodgy ways I guess, but marriage extension are 400,000 or show income of 480,000, and retirement extension are 800,000 or what ever it is, so what's all the rave on worry about 500,000.??

If you are talking about the elite card, you pay the 500.000 baht, then five years later it is all gone. The money in the bank is yours all the time as long as it stays there, you are not going to lose it anytime unless you spend it yourself.

[Morakot]

Having having absurd laws is even worse than not enforcing them.

What absurd laws ?

90 Days Reporting, e.g.

[96tehtarp]

David, I keep saying, and I will say it again, once they come a bit upcountry, and get the drivers with no licence, and the underage children riding motorbikes etc etc, then I will believe they are serious, until then I don't. Thailand is not just Bangkok and Phuket.

possum1931 you don't mention what you would like to see happen in Thailand.

Would you like them to enforce laws upcountry, and get the drivers with no licence, and the underage children riding motorbikes etc etc ?

How far should this go?

[cooked]

My wife is Thai so it does not effect me personally but i have several friends who do not qualify for any visa category besides tourist. these are 20-30 somethings who make/have made very good money, are well educated and intelligent. they don't have or want a Thai wife.

there was an article on thai visa not too long ago by some government official saying they wanted Thailand to become the new hub of internet start ups and it is true that Thailand had all the requirements to be good for that sort of thing... it is unique country because it is affordable, fun, with easy visa regulations.

these 20-40 year old nomadic types are very strongly hated on Thai visa for what reason i do not know, jealousy i guess... apparently on thai visa people take triumph in anything they can, such as qualifying for a retirement visa.

but the response that these "hot shots" should pay 500k baht for an elite card is more like a fantasy than anything else. i mean unless you are rolling in dosh nobody is paying 500k for an elite card.The Thai government could easily go back to not enforcing the rules a year from now and you will have been the only idiot around who paid 500k for a visa. and a lot of shit can happen in 5 years. if they were prorating it annually it'd be more realistic as opposed to 500k upfront for 5 years. the elite card was never created for this explicit purpose more than likely it was designed as a vehicle for political graft, not as a "visa category".

my friends will probably just leave and if we are being honest about it, will probably be better off for it.

I don't get what you at and I couldn't care a hoot what other people do to stay here in Thailand there's a correct way and there's dodgy ways I guess, but marriage extension are 400,000 or show income of 480,000, and retirement extension are 800,000 or what ever it is, so what's all the rave on worry about 500,000.??

The card must be renewed after 5 years, that's what to worry about.

[kevozman1]

On the priority ladder of what laws could do with being enforced a little tighter in Thailand I think harassing foreigners who are living in Thailand and supporting themselves and in most cases spending decent money should be quite low. Enforcing laws more rigidly on murder, rape, corruption, prostitution, labour abuse would be a better place to start. I only mention those because there does indeed seem to be quite a fair amount of room for improvement on those matters. After those are improved then maybe start worrying about some foreigners who are staying in the kingdom doing online work or having a long term holiday. Just my opinion of course.

[NoshowJones]

David, I keep saying, and I will say it again, once they come a bit upcountry, and get the drivers with no licence, and the underage children riding motorbikes etc etc, then I will believe they are serious, until then I don't. Thailand is not just Bangkok and Phuket.

possum1931 you don't mention what you would like to see happen in Thailand.

Would you like them to enforce laws upcountry, and get the drivers with no licence, and the underage children riding motorbikes etc etc ?

How far should this go?

Give them a few days warning, car drivers without a licence, car confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine. Children on motorbikes, motorbikes confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine to their parents. Second offence, cars and motorbikes confiscated for good.

If this happened and kept on happening, watch the road fatalities fall. but we all know it won't, and road fatalities will stay high.

[Bernard Flint]

Thai authorities under previous governments have been very very lax in implementing and enforcing their laws and fighting corruption, scams, drunk driving etc etc. Loads of people here on ThaiVisa cried "foul, foul, foul" on every single occasion and asked for changes on numerous things...

Now these changes come... and "unfortunately" the new Masters do not only fight what is bothering the ThaiVisa posters... but also enforcing a number of other laws like immigration and visa... and now everybody cries "foul" and "unfair" because they are affected...

Kind of double standards here...

God help some farangs when the drink/ driving law gets sorted

[96tehtarp]

How far should this go?

Give them a few days warning, car drivers without a licence, car confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine. Children on motorbikes, motorbikes confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine to their parents. Second offence, cars and motorbikes confiscated for good.

If this happened and kept on happening, watch the road fatalities fall. but we all know it won't, and road fatalities will stay high.

"If this happened and kept on happening, watch the road fatalities fall. but we all know it won't, and road fatalities will stay high."

We all know that won;t happen quickly. If it is to happen it will take at least a decade, and it would require a near total reform of Thailand. What you describe is a police state. We have now an authoritarian government, a police state is certainly a possible next step.

A good question to ask here is would Thai people be happy living in a police state, or would they prefer to live in a happy go lucky mai-penrai state?

Police states come with advantages and disadvantages.

Interesting...

[NoshowJones]

How far should this go?

Give them a few days warning, car drivers without a licence, car confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine. Children on motorbikes, motorbikes confiscated, returned on payment of heavy fine to their parents. Second offence, cars and motorbikes confiscated for good.

If this happened and kept on happening, watch the road fatalities fall. but we all know it won't, and road fatalities will stay high.

"If this happened and kept on happening, watch the road fatalities fall. but we all know it won't, and road fatalities will stay high."

We all know that won;t happen quickly. If it is to happen it will take at least a decade, and it would require a near total reform of Thailand. What you describe is a police state. We have now an authoritarian government, a police state is certainly a possible next step.

A good question to ask here is would Thai people be happy living in a police state, or would they prefer to live in a happy go lucky mai-penrai state?

Police states come with advantages and disadvantages.

Interesting...

That's very true what you say about a police state, but I think peoples lives are more important than corruption, and the first thing that should be done is reducing those road fatalities. If people knew they would easily lose their cars and motorbikes, it would not take a decade, nothing is going to be perfect, but you could have a good few lives saved during the first month, and so on, there will still be unlicenced drivers, and children on motorbikes, just not so many.

Most Thai people just want to do what suits them regardless of what happens to other people, nice decent people most of them are, but that's just the way they think.

If any of their children die on a motorbike it's mai pen rai, we will just go to bed and make another one.

[96tehtarp]

Police states come with advantages and disadvantages.

Interesting...

That's very true what you say about a police state, but I think peoples lives are more important than corruption, and the first thing that should be done is reducing those road fatalities.

If people knew they would easily lose their cars and motorbikes, it would not take a decade, nothing is going to be perfect, but you could have a good few lives saved during the first month, and so on, there will still be unlicenced drivers, and children on motorbikes, just not so many.

Most Thai people just want to do what suits them regardless of what happens to other people, nice decent people most of them are, but that's just the way they think.

If any of their children die on a motorbike it's mai pen rai, we will just go to bed and make another one.

You espouse very noble thoughts.

Thai people are very fatalistic. To them death is a result fate and destiny, a result of karma. When someone dies in a road accident in Thailand due to alcohol people here don't automatically have a knee jerk reaction like westerners do.

Westerners immediately react and insist that a regulation must be put in place and rigorously enforced to prevent it from happening again. From my perspective this reaction is very un-Thai. Thais say "Sao To Pakhawato Samphutasa ...."

I do hear you, and I agree that much could be accomplished with very little real enforcement of regulations already on the books here.

I believe that the junta's focus on law and order is to secure solid social control in preparation for the great event that will shake Thailand to it's core. It cannot be mentioned here. It is only a matter of time now.

[In Search of Space]

Police states come with advantages and disadvantages.

Interesting...

That's very true what you say about a police state, but I think peoples lives are more important than corruption, and the first thing that should be done is reducing those road fatalities.

If people knew they would easily lose their cars and motorbikes, it would not take a decade, nothing is going to be perfect, but you could have a good few lives saved during the first month, and so on, there will still be unlicenced drivers, and children on motorbikes, just not so many.

Most Thai people just want to do what suits them regardless of what happens to other people, nice decent people most of them are, but that's just the way they think.

If any of their children die on a motorbike it's mai pen rai, we will just go to bed and make another one.

You espouse very noble thoughts.

Thai people are very fatalistic. To them death is a result fate and destiny, a result of karma. When someone dies in a road accident in Thailand due to alcohol people here don't automatically have a knee jerk reaction like westerners do.

Westerners immediately react and insist that a regulation must be put in place and rigorously enforced to prevent it from happening again. From my perspective this reaction is very un-Thai. Thais say "Sao To Pakhawato Samphutasa ...."

I do hear you, and I agree that much could be accomplished with very little real enforcement of regulations already on the books here.

I believe that the junta's focus on law and order is to secure solid social control in preparation for the great event that will shake Thailand to it's core. It cannot be mentioned here. It is only a matter of time now.

Could you imagine a festival such as songkhran where many hundreds of deaths occur being allowed in any western country ?

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[samran]

Anyone who has spent anything more than a few weeks in Thailand surely understands something about the law in Thailand:

It might be against the law to do something in Thailand but Mai Bpen Rai - it will never be a problem until it is a problem.

The best advice is always - stay within the law as it is written, not the law as it is applied/not applied.

My bolding and I hope with GH it's OK?

Nice quote ... just want it viewed as a stand alone comment.

Excellent advice. Probably explains why I feel like I live in a seperate parallel universe Thailand to most here.

[96tehtarp]

Could you imagine a festival such as songkhran where many hundreds of deaths occur being allowed in any western country ?

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's called Christmas and New Years, and in spite of strict enforcement of drunk driving laws many hundreds of deaths still occur.

Don't misunderstand me, I am all in favor of Thai police being armed with breathalyzers and authority to impound vehicles. People still get drunk and drive and die in western countries in spite of strict enforcement. Thailand has a very poor record on this front and I can't remember the last time I have ever heard of anyone arrested for DWI here.

[In Search of Space]

Could you imagine a festival such as songkhran where many hundreds of deaths occur being allowed in any western country ?

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's called Christmas and New Years, and in spite of strict enforcement of drunk driving laws many hundreds of deaths still occur.

Don't misunderstand me, I am all in favor of Thai police being armed with breathalyzers and authority to impound vehicles. People still get drunk and drive and die in western countries in spite of strict enforcement. Thailand has a very poor record on this front and I can't remember the last time I have ever heard of anyone arrested for DWI here.

Point taken

I don't think UK Christmas drunk driving deaths are in the hundreds, our 2012 national road death toll for the year, not necessarily due to drink were around 1,900, which is still 1,900 too many.

I know a couple of ferangs banged up for riding bikes while drunk, but one was abusive to the cops, so what else were they going to do. The other was in a minor accident with a wall & the owner called his cop buddy.

[nottocus]

It's funny….I wonder show many posters have whinged about laws not being applied in TL, and now they are and it affects them, they whinge even more.

Funny. Stop being hypocrites.

[ravip]

I've always enjoyed the freedom I've had in Thailand to break many of the rules imposed on me in my home country. Thailand has always had a flexible, middle way, approach to everything. It's part of Thainess, or at least it has been.

This speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Somewhere, some place, assumed to be perfect seems kind of imperfect, isn't it?

OOOh well...

[farang000999]

My wife is Thai so it does not effect me personally but i have several friends who do not qualify for any visa category besides tourist. these are 20-30 somethings who make/have made very good money, are well educated and intelligent. they don't have or want a Thai wife.

there was an article on thai visa not too long ago by some government official saying they wanted Thailand to become the new hub of internet start ups and it is true that Thailand had all the requirements to be good for that sort of thing... it is unique country because it is affordable, fun, with easy visa regulations.

these 20-40 year old nomadic types are very strongly hated on Thai visa for what reason i do not know, jealousy i guess... apparently on thai visa people take triumph in anything they can, such as qualifying for a retirement visa.

but the response that these "hot shots" should pay 500k baht for an elite card is more like a fantasy than anything else. i mean unless you are rolling in dosh nobody is paying 500k for an elite card.The Thai government could easily go back to not enforcing the rules a year from now and you will have been the only idiot around who paid 500k for a visa. and a lot of shit can happen in 5 years. if they were prorating it annually it'd be more realistic as opposed to 500k upfront for 5 years. the elite card was never created for this explicit purpose more than likely it was designed as a vehicle for political graft, not as a "visa category".

my friends will probably just leave and if we are being honest about it, will probably be better off for it.

I don't get what you at and I couldn't care a hoot what other people do to stay here in Thailand there's a correct way and there's dodgy ways I guess, but marriage extension are 400,000 or show income of 480,000, and retirement extension are 800,000 or what ever it is, so what's all the rave on worry about 500,000.??

Thai Immigration is turning people away who have too many tourist visas in their passport and who are believed to be living in Thailand on tourist visas. The 500k baht is for a "Thai Elite Card" that lats 5 years and allows one to stay in Thailand for up to a year at a time. You have to be married or retired for those other visas you mentioned. Many aren't. The 500k baht is not for your bank account balance, it is a card you purchase.

Edited July 17, 2014 by farang000999

[96tehtarp]

I've always enjoyed the freedom I've had in Thailand to break many of the rules imposed on me in my home country. Thailand has always had a flexible, middle way, approach to everything. It's part of Thainess, or at least it has been.

This speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Somewhere, some place, assumed to be perfect seems kind of imperfect, isn't it?

OOOh well...

You are being coy.

On many levels freedom is the right to break the rules.

[Kwasaki]

Thai Immigration is turning people away who have too many tourist visas in their passport and who are believed to be living in Thailand on tourist visas. The 500k baht is for a "Thai Elite Card" that lats 5 years and allows one to stay in Thailand for up to a year at a time. You have to be married or retired for those other visas you mentioned. Many aren't. The 500k baht is not for your bank account balance, it is a card you purchase.

Yeah Ok so understand why most people wouldn't want to buy one of them as you have explained.

So there is no other types of visa's available in there country of origin for these people you mention to stay in Thailand for the time they wish.

[farang000999]

You can get an education visa if you want to study (or pretend to study) muay thai or thai culture. There is a 12m baht investment visa where you buy real estate/gov bonds.

[sustento]

Rule of Law is nice but those in charge also need to realize that there are a large group of foreigners who are beneficial to the country who do not currently fit into any of the visa categories and with the exception of purchasing an "Elite Card for 500k baht" will not be able to live in the country.

How can someone who can't afford to pay 270bt a day for a 5 year visa be 'beneficial to the country'?

[Swiss1960]

I've always enjoyed the freedom I've had in Thailand to break many of the rules imposed on me in my home country. Thailand has always had a flexible, middle way, approach to everything. It's part of Thainess, or at least it has been.

This speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Somewhere, some place, assumed to be perfect seems kind of imperfect, isn't it?

OOOh well...

You are being coy.

On many levels freedom is the right to break the rules.

Freedom is also the right of the Governement to punish the people they catch breaking the rules - or in the case of VISA throw them out of the country or not let them in again

Don't we all love freedom???

[96tehtarp]

I've always enjoyed the freedom I've had in Thailand to break many of the rules imposed on me in my home country. Thailand has always had a flexible, middle way, approach to everything. It's part of Thainess, or at least it has been.

This speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Somewhere, some place, assumed to be perfect seems kind of imperfect, isn't it?

OOOh well...

You are being coy.

On many levels freedom is the right to break the rules.

Freedom is also the right of the Governement to punish the people they catch breaking the rules - or in the case of VISA throw them out of the country or not let them in again

Don't we all love freedom???

Good point. Government also has the freedom to decide if or how it will enforce the rules and how severely it will punish the rule-breakers.

I'm definitely feeling less free now because rules that the government has had a long standing history of not enforcing are now being enforced with serious penalties.

"Don't we all love freedom?"

Some more than others, and those who do often realize it only after it's too late and their freedoms have been taken away.

[In Search of Space]

If we are back on the visa situation, personally I have a Thai wife, have just hit 50, so no visa issues. But in UK we complain about immigrants either from Eastern EU countries or other parts of the world coming in & just taking government benefits & not contributing to society, living off everyone else's tax payments.

I have no issues with someone who wants to come & work & pay their taxes.

In Thailand even overstayers or back-to-back visa run people are not taking anything from the Thai tax payer, they are not paying taxes, but presumably they have to pay rent, buy food etc, so at least some local Thais are benefitting

[RandomSand]

1000, 2000 or 3000 Baht on entry, depending on if you want to stay 30, 60 or 90 days.

Yes, I agree... get rid of the visa-runs.... they're a pain in the backside.

1000 Baht gets a tourist 30 days stay in the kingdom, either entry or renewal, at any border or immigration office.

That should fund an investigation team quite nicely who'd be able to investigate those work without WP whilst still allowing long-term tourists to stay as they wished.

Edited July 18, 2014 by RandomSand

[farang000999]

Remember, technically anyone who comes here on vacation and answers a business email or works on an excel report is in breach of Thai law. However, you would hope that when a Thai judge is analyzing the legal case brought up against a software engineer living Chang Mai for working illegally whilst in Thailand he would consider that it would not have been possible for the individual to have obtained a work permit in the first place.

And, I do not ever recall reading on Thai Visa about anyone getting in trouble for telecommuting whilst in Thailand but perhaps that will change.

My prediction is that the new norm in Thaialnd will be an end to land visa runs and a requirement for those on perpetual tourist visas to show funds coming in from overseas. I believe that the Thai authorities understand that their country benefits from the money being brought in by perpetual tourists working remotely or offshore and that they understand the short comings of the present legislation in our modern global economy.

Edited July 24, 2014 by farang000999