Calls mount for justice over MH17

[krisb]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion

Seems no one is of yours either you bitter little man.

Ouch! Was that a personal attack krisb?

Not at all, it was in response to you not understanding on forums we are all entitled to our opinions.

If you don't agree with me and all the other opinions here, that's fine and expected.

But to to do it in a such a way as to belittle not only me, but other members also, and try to draw us into an argument because we don't see things your way, is weak Jim.

[transam]

Malaysia Air need to take a chunk of responsibility imo.

Flying a civilian plane over a war zone is crazy.

Fortunately nobody of any importance is interested in your opinion.

I am, and am sure the families of those lost are too, even if they are not important folk......

What the families of those lost are interested in krisb's opinion? Who said they were not important? MAS is to blame pffft!

Why not....?

[chuckd]

This is NOT a jibe at the Americans in general or at POTUS in particular. But based on the lines that he had Kerry draw in the sand for Assad regards Syrian chemical weapons that got summarily walked over, what does it take to get the White House a bit more focused on what is happening in Eastern Europe? For sure it is primarily as European problem but we are not blessed (yet) with a United States of Europe. Despite themselves, Merkel, Cameron and (just possibly) Hollande need someone to lead.

The festering hatred and inhumanity in the middle east was broadly someone else's problem until 9-11. After that, someone paid attention (although their focus was way, way off).

Now imagine if MH17 had 193 Americans onboard and not just 1 dual-citizen.

Or,

Imagine if the Dutch had the same military clout as the US?

The problem with your post is the White House does not possess a "leader". It is currently occupied by a community organizer who is entirely out of his depth.

Leadership from the US will not happen before 20 January 2017...and if the wrong person is again elected, it will not happen then.

[Kitsch22]

Why was MH17 flying over near/over a war zone?

The management/owners of Malay Airlines are responsible for putting the passengers/crew in danger. Whilst they are not guilty of actually destroying the plane, just like they were not responsible directly for MH370, the level of incompetence and arrogance of the owners/management is unbelievable for NOT rerouting their flights. It is time to shut these cowboy airlines down.

Not just Malaysian Airlines but Thai, Virgin, KL and many other carriers have up to last Thursday with the downing of MH17 been overflying this same war zone, in spite of 3 other Ukrainian aircraft having been downed by the Russians just this past week. The FAA told all US carriers months ago to avoid this airspace, but apparently many other carriers ignored such warnings.

Heard today on the news from US intelligence and military sources that the Russians had to be the ones who launched this missile, from within Ukrainian airspace, since it takes min. 2 years of training to use this particular Russian ground to air launcher, along with requiring some technical maintenance staff who know how to align the radar and other electronic equipment once the launcher reaches a launch destination. This is required since during the movement of the launcher, all of the sensitive electronics gets bounced around a lot.

Ukrainian separatists could not possibly launch this missile without a Russian trained military person having been there pushing the button. Intelligence sources said they had apparently used the launcher radar only and not the transponder, which would have determined it was a commercial and not military transporter flight.

Big mistake made by Russians on the ground but Putin will not admit this terrible mistake and wants to blame everyone else instead of taking the responsibility, which would not sit well with his Russian support base he has built up with 80% of the population. This will hopefully be a game changer and wake up call to the EU so they will finally sign up to the level of sanctions needed against the Russian banking and O&G sectors of their economy to make them realize this aggression must stop against their neighboring countries. This would be the ONLY bright spot potentially coming out of this tragedy. Putin let lose the lions of war and now he needs to put them back into their cages.

But Putin is no fool. So why is it that he has not used the "Vincennes Gambit" as previously deployed by the USA? Just say: "Yes, we did it, but we thought that we were under attack from a hostile military aircraft, which makes it all perfectly okay." Then award medals to the persons responsible for pressing the button. Problem solved.

[Gulfsailor]

Why was MH17 flying over near/over a war zone?

The management/owners of Malay Airlines are responsible for putting the passengers/crew in danger. Whilst they are not guilty of actually destroying the plane, just like they were not responsible directly for MH370, the level of incompetence and arrogance of the owners/management is unbelievable for NOT rerouting their flights. It is time to shut these cowboy airlines down.

Not just Malaysian Airlines but Thai, Virgin, KL and many other carriers have up to last Thursday with the downing of MH17 been overflying this same war zone, in spite of 3 other Ukrainian aircraft having been downed by the Russians just this past week. The FAA told all US carriers months ago to avoid this airspace, but apparently many other carriers ignored such warnings.

Heard today on the news from US intelligence and military sources that the Russians had to be the ones who launched this missile, from within Ukrainian airspace, since it takes min. 2 years of training to use this particular Russian ground to air launcher, along with requiring some technical maintenance staff who know how to align the radar and other electronic equipment once the launcher reaches a launch destination. This is required since during the movement of the launcher, all of the sensitive electronics gets bounced around a lot.

Ukrainian separatists could not possibly launch this missile without a Russian trained military person having been there pushing the button. Intelligence sources said they had apparently used the launcher radar only and not the transponder, which would have determined it was a commercial and not military transporter flight.

Big mistake made by Russians on the ground but Putin will not admit this terrible mistake and wants to blame everyone else instead of taking the responsibility, which would not sit well with his Russian support base he has built up with 80% of the population. This will hopefully be a game changer and wake up call to the EU so they will finally sign up to the level of sanctions needed against the Russian banking and O&G sectors of their economy to make them realize this aggression must stop against their neighboring countries. This would be the ONLY bright spot potentially coming out of this tragedy. Putin let lose the lions of war and now he needs to put them back into their cages.

But Putin is no fool. So why is it that he has not used the "Vincennes Gambit" as previously deployed by the USA? Just say: "Yes, we did it, but we thought that we were under attack from a hostile military aircraft, which makes it all perfectly okay." Then award medals to the persons responsible for pressing the button. Problem solved.

He can't because the missile was launched from within Ukraine. If Russia admits to accidental involvement they admit that Russian equipment was taken into Ukraine deliberately to support the separatists, and from what I believe, also that active Russian soldiers were behind the controls at the time.

[jpinx]

Why was MH17 flying over near/over a war zone?

The management/owners of Malay Airlines are responsible for putting the passengers/crew in danger. Whilst they are not guilty of actually destroying the plane, just like they were not responsible directly for MH370, the level of incompetence and arrogance of the owners/management is unbelievable for NOT rerouting their flights. It is time to shut these cowboy airlines down.

Not just Malaysian Airlines but Thai, Virgin, KL and many other carriers have up to last Thursday with the downing of MH17 been overflying this same war zone, in spite of 3 other Ukrainian aircraft having been downed by the Russians just this past week. The FAA told all US carriers months ago to avoid this airspace, but apparently many other carriers ignored such warnings.

Heard today on the news from US intelligence and military sources that the Russians had to be the ones who launched this missile, from within Ukrainian airspace, since it takes min. 2 years of training to use this particular Russian ground to air launcher, along with requiring some technical maintenance staff who know how to align the radar and other electronic equipment once the launcher reaches a launch destination. This is required since during the movement of the launcher, all of the sensitive electronics gets bounced around a lot.

Ukrainian separatists could not possibly launch this missile without a Russian trained military person having been there pushing the button. Intelligence sources said they had apparently used the launcher radar only and not the transponder, which would have determined it was a commercial and not military transporter flight.

Big mistake made by Russians on the ground but Putin will not admit this terrible mistake and wants to blame everyone else instead of taking the responsibility, which would not sit well with his Russian support base he has built up with 80% of the population. This will hopefully be a game changer and wake up call to the EU so they will finally sign up to the level of sanctions needed against the Russian banking and O&G sectors of their economy to make them realize this aggression must stop against their neighboring countries. This would be the ONLY bright spot potentially coming out of this tragedy. Putin let lose the lions of war and now he needs to put them back into their cages.

But Putin is no fool. So why is it that he has not used the "Vincennes Gambit" as previously deployed by the USA? Just say: "Yes, we did it, but we thought that we were under attack from a hostile military aircraft, which makes it all perfectly okay." Then award medals to the persons responsible for pressing the button. Problem solved.

He can't because the missile was launched from within Ukraine. If Russia admits to accidental involvement they admit that Russian equipment was taken into Ukraine deliberately to support the separatists, and from what I believe, also that active Russian soldiers were behind the controls at the time.

Putin is a master chess player -- he is not above sacrificing pieces to gain a strategic advantage

[Geri Glines]

Russian justice impossible!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pakboong]

Russia's position on this conflict would be completely compromised if it could be determined that Russia had provided the rebels with this particular surface to air capability. The Kiev government has openly admitted that none of their ADA weapons systems had fallen into the hands of the rebels.

"The Spanish air controller intimates that the order to down the aircraft came from the Ministry of the Interior (Ministry of Internal Affairs) and not from the Military.

He also said that the MH17 flight was escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before it was downed.

It is worth noting that the presence of the Ukraine fighter jets reported by the Spanish air traffic controller was confirmed by eyewitness reports in the Donetsk region.

What is of significance is that the announcement of the downing of the aircraft (by a missile) by Kiev was almost immediate.

According to the Spanish air controller, the air control tower was informed of the downing of the aircraft at 12.00 hours, approximately ten minutes after it disappeared from the radar screen (11.50 hours). How could they have known unless they had concrete details on how it was shot down?"

http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17/5391909

[jpinx]

You think an inexpert eye-witness can discern a fighter jet's markings at 33,000ft from the ground?

It does raise the possibility of a missile launched against a fighter which took anti-missile evasive manouvres so the missile locked onto the next nearest jet signature.

[Thunder26]

Latest news.

The US stated that their secret services intercepted the movement of rocket launchers from separatist Ukraine back to Russia after this incident.

Russian separatists confirmed the finding of 2 black boxes and they are willing to give them to international bodies to be investigated as they don't trust Kiev.

About 200 bodies were found at the crash scene and those bodies were placed in a train refrigerator not far from Donetsk. The rest of the bodies are still scattered around the area and have to be collected.

[hawker9000]

Ukraine has much more to gain from this than anyone and seems as though everyone is playing into their plans like clockwork.

Not conspiracy theory.... Just logic, the same logic being used by all those nations against Russia.

Lol. Oh yes. Let's ignore the facts, and go with this twisted logic that since the world condemns Russia for doing what they're doing, and supplying Ukrainian separatists, who are actually Russian annexationists, with weapons, the Ukraine must've done this "for the publicity". You're right - it's not conspiracy theory; it's just dumb.

[arisaje]

There are so many unknowns here, that everyone needs to calm down and take stock of the situation. <<<< Off topic deflection comments removed >>>> Malaysian Airlines was using an air corridor that was being used by many other airlines routing east-west. Ironically, the Russian President's own jet flew through the same air way shortly before or after the Malaysian airliner. The East Ukrainians do not have the fire power to down a jet at FL 33, so it suggests they were not the culprits.Was the real target the Russian President's aircraft? The Dutch "Der Telegraaf" suggests it might have been. The Kiev regime has Buk air to ground missiles, they do have the capacity to shoot down an airliner. There is a huge amount of stuff going on here. It really looks as if the west is determined to start World War 3. Manufactured flash points include Ukraine, Gaza, Iraq and Syria. The real question from all this mayhem is "pro bono"? Who benefits? Personally, I am not looking forward to events in the coming week.

What a load of nonsense....you must watch too many movies.

I very much doubt the Russian Presidential flight flew over Ukraine at all, let alone through a conflict zone.

Manufactured flash points?........Syria and Iraq have been at war internally for 4 years and 10 years respectively, Ukraines conflict is solely the result of Russian interference and Gaza is an ongoing issue every other month. So which of these is a 'manufactured flash point' oh the one the Russians created.

[arisaje]

Ukraine has much more to gain from this than anyone and seems as though everyone is playing into their plans like clockwork.

Not conspiracy theory.... Just logic, the same logic being used by all those nations against Russia.

Lol. Oh yes. Let's ignore the facts, and go with this twisted logic that since the world condemns Russia for doing what they're doing, and supplying Ukrainian separatists, who are actually Russian annexationists, with weapons, the Ukraine must've done this "for the publicity". You're right - it's not conspiracy theory; it's just dumb.

@lostsoul49

So what exactly does Ukraine gain from shooting down a civilian airliner with mainly all Europeans on board? How does that benefit them exactly, they are doing a pretty good job at displacing the Pro-Russian rebels at the moment...as they have re-taken 85% of land previously held by the rebels...

[outsider]

To all armchair aviation experts and cyber bull-crappers who have nothing better to do, try getting your facts right first, before you start a bitch-fest/bash-fest on almost everything that comes into your attention. MH17 was flying in an established corridor, way above minimum altitude and I think various reports have confirmed that many flights were also in the area at the time of the incident, and that this was an established corridor used by many airlines and a popular one bridging Europe and Asia. Following the incident, airlines like Lufthansa, Thai and other major international carriers issued a statement to say they will re-route all their flights that would otherwise have flown over the same area. So unless you have facts to prove that MH17 was off-course or deliberately endangering the lives of its passengers, I suggest you stick to playing with your soft toys in your own little corner.

[laolover88]

Informed opinion here:

To all those wondering how the Americans claim to know what happened, try reading these Wiki references. Surface radar observations are not required.

MASINT

Space-Based Infrared System

Space Tracking and Surveillance System

Trumpet (satellite)

These systems would tell the US exactly where the missile was launched, track the missile in flight, observe the explosion, analyse the spectral traces of the missile efflux and the warhead detonation, and record the SAM radar emissions. The missile's speed and trajectory and the characteristics of the efflux, warhead and radar can all be used to identify the missile system.

With all this information to hand, you can understand why Obama was in a position to point the finger only hours after the news broke. The accident site will yield more information; explosive residues, missile parts, etc, and those will be the sticks with which the international community beats Russia in due course. The US will almost certainly keep its MASINT secret because:

1) Those who already know what happened (e.g. Putin) will merely have their knowledge of US MASINT capabilities enhanced;
2) Those who disbelieve everything the US says will just say the US is lying;
3) Those who believe the US don't actually need to see the evidence in order to trust what Obama said.

So I think there is little chance we'll ever see any of this highly-classified intelligence. But perhaps the conspiracy theorists might consider that the US case against the separatists is based on evidence more substantial than a few tweets, a Facebook post and a (allegedly) doctored telephone conversation.

Only problem, of course, is that "evidence more substantial" is subject to the possibility of all kinds of chicanery!

[spidermike007]

Why was MH17 flying over near/over a war zone?

The management/owners of Malay Airlines are responsible for putting the passengers/crew in danger. Whilst they are not guilty of actually destroying the plane, just like they were not responsible directly for MH370, the level of incompetence and arrogance of the owners/management is unbelievable for NOT rerouting their flights. It is time to shut these cowboy airlines down.

Though I agree that it was irresponsible to fly MH17 over a war zone they weren't the only plane to fly over there. There we 55 other flights also from various airlines. Further, why do you call Malaysian Air a "cowboy airline"? Until recently, they have long been a respected airline in the world of travellers.

They have always been considered an outstanding airline. Listed in the top ten for many years on skytrax. Yes, if it were my airline, I would have gone around the Eastern Ukraine. But, how many thousands of flights have flown over that area in the past several months without incident? Being a "Sage of hindsight" is easy to do. Having vision and foresight is far more difficult. I do not think assigning blame is fair, especially in light of their recent pair of horrific misfortunes.

Spidermike007

[gabruce]

Also interesting is the report that they were not following their usual flight path, and instead were rerouted over the restricted air-space. So one question is why were they rerouted? (or is the report true?).

Diverted 300 miles to avoid flying into a thunderstorm.

Thanks for the info and clarification. Much appreciated.

I guess next time they will divert planes away from the Ukraine.

[dominique355]

Informed opinion here:

To all those wondering how the Americans claim to know what happened, try reading these Wiki references. Surface radar observations are not required.

MASINT

Space-Based Infrared System

Space Tracking and Surveillance System

Trumpet (satellite)

These systems would tell the US exactly where the missile was launched, track the missile in flight, observe the explosion, analyse the spectral traces of the missile efflux and the warhead detonation, and record the SAM radar emissions. The missile's speed and trajectory and the characteristics of the efflux, warhead and radar can all be used to identify the missile system.

With all this information to hand, you can understand why Obama was in a position to point the finger only hours after the news broke. The accident site will yield more information; explosive residues, missile parts, etc, and those will be the sticks with which the international community beats Russia in due course. The US will almost certainly keep its MASINT secret because:

1) Those who already know what happened (e.g. Putin) will merely have their knowledge of US MASINT capabilities enhanced;

2) Those who disbelieve everything the US says will just say the US is lying;

3) Those who believe the US don't actually need to see the evidence in order to trust what Obama said.

So I think there is little chance we'll ever see any of this highly-classified intelligence. But perhaps the conspiracy theorists might consider that the US case against the separatists is based on evidence more substantial than a few tweets, a Facebook post and a (allegedly) doctored telephone conversation.

Only problem, of course, is that "evidence more substantial" is subject to the possibility of all kinds of chicanery!

Just a word of caution when looking for evidence in Wikipedia: The Russians are manipulating Wikipedia articles in their favour. The Twitter account RuGovEdits was able to trace a recent change in Wikipedia about the MH17 to the Russian Government Radio and TV station WGTRK.

Also, like we have experienced under the Yingluck / Suthep controversy, the social media have been invaded by paid contributors.

[BuaBS]

You still think Malaysian is not 100 % responsible ?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/malaysian-airlines-hot-water-again-time-flying-above-war-torn-syria

And this time an A380 , so was 300 deaths not enough , now do it again with more than 500 passengers !

Past months , what 4 or 5 or more planes and heli's shot down ? But hey it's OK to fly over the Ukraine....

If it is so safe , why are there no flights over the Uk now ?

[3NUMBAS]

10:40am, Sat 30 Aug 2014Body of second football fan killed on flight MH17 identified Russia demands MH17 black box data release Last updated Sat 30 Aug 2014

• World
• Malaysia

Russia has launched a media attack on Western countries, demanding to know why international investigators have yet to publish the black box data from a Malaysian airliner that was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July, a deputy defence minister said in an interview published on Saturday.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-08-30/russia-demands-mh17-black-box-data-release/

**************************************************************************

does seem strange its not been revealed in detail yet

[doctorproc156]

You still think Malaysian is not 100 % responsible ?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/malaysian-airlines-hot-water-again-time-flying-above-war-torn-syria

And this time an A380 , so was 300 deaths not enough , now do it again with more than 500 passengers !

Past months , what 4 or 5 or more planes and heli's shot down ? But hey it's OK to fly over the Ukraine....

If it is so safe , why are there no flights over the Uk now ?

This was the fault of Ukraine (for failing to provide the service of providing a safe passage for airlines who have paid to use their airspace), the ICAO (for declaring this area safe to fly over), Malaysian Airlines and the all the other airlines who flew over the exact same area and endangered their passengers.

The airlines who flew over the area MH17 was shot down for the week before the shootdown:

[Seastallion]

You still think Malaysian is not 100 % responsible ?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/malaysian-airlines-hot-water-again-time-flying-above-war-torn-syria

And this time an A380 , so was 300 deaths not enough , now do it again with more than 500 passengers !

Past months , what 4 or 5 or more planes and heli's shot down ? But hey it's OK to fly over the Ukraine....

If it is so safe , why are there no flights over the Uk now ?

This was the fault of Ukraine (for failing to provide the service of providing a safe passage for airlines who have paid to use their airspace), the ICAO (for declaring this area safe to fly over), Malaysian Airlines and the all the other airlines who flew over the exact same area and endangered their passengers.

The airlines who flew over the area MH17 was shot down for the week before the shootdown:

That's over 5 flights per hour constantly. Not Heathrow or LAX, but a relatively busy corridor.

[tartempion]

No, it was the fault of the idiots who shot down the plane. (and don't have the guts to admit their hideous crime)

Just driving my 3.5 young girl to school and seeing the idiots who overtake me driving 100kmh+ on a two lane road whilst trucks, buses and cars are coming the other way, happening 2x/day every day