Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

[b4 breakfast mass debater]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-07/25/c_133508869.htm
 
 
Israeli tanks shells target UN-run school, killing 16 civilians

Four Israeli army tanks shells fired at a school run by the UNRWA in Gaza, killing 16 and wounded dozens of civilians who took refuge to the school.

[dexterm]

 

Israel's present atrocity will only bring Jihad and ISIS to their doorstep. This is a disaster for Israel. They needed to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians and all they're doing is creating a new generation of terrorists. Killing children is not the way to go about this. Mossad should have been all over Hamas and the rocket locations. There was no need for any of this.

 

 

 

 

 

So, if you come to me and attack me and AFTER that I will defend my self and even punch you in order to stop you harming me, this is what you call atrocity ?

 

You guys have a serious problem. Beer anyone?

 

 

This is not about stopping the rockets. I have proved that in previous posts.

 

The Stop the Rockets mantra is a weak attempt to muddy the waters. Israel has made an art form out of playing the victim.

[dexterm]

 

 

 

But in the medium to long term, Israel's actions are only going to harm itself.

From your rabid posts, it is obvious that you only have Israel's best interests at heart. There is little doubt that they would be pleased at your sincere concerns for their well being.

 

 

Rabid?

 

Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

 

 

Rabid posts. Are you a post? 

 

 

Because UG has run out of rational argument

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted and I will do a clean up of the thread later.   Please stick to the topic which is related to the fighting and the death toll.  

[dr_lucas]

 

You cannot reason with these totally programmed people who cannot see the truth and reality outside their narrow blinkered

religious indoctrination.

 

 

There are lots of minority nations on this planet who have managed to live in peace and harmony.

 

However Israel was born from a minority religion and the guilt the western nations felt after WW2.

 

Roma gypsies,gay people and a substantial number of physical and mentally deficient people also suffered a terrible death in the holocaust but do not regurgitate it on a daily basis to make the world feel guilty.

 

This current conflict is born from the death of three immigrant so called settler hitchhikers who were murdered trying to get home in the occupied West Bank where according to the UN they had no right to be there.

 

 

 

Dismissing and justifying so easily a kidnapping & murder (yes, with full intent to murder) of 3 innocent Israeli children just proves that you are the narrow minded hypocrite fanatic, not the other way around.

History proved time and time again that, despite your claims, Israelis can be reasoned with and if and when the intents and offers are reasonable and sincere, real peace with them is achievable.

Please do take a moment to watch this, you may learn a few little things you didn't know, or maybe choose not to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8

 

I will also quote Morch recent reply elsewhere, as he is definitely a better English writer than me:

 

There wasn't that much of a Palestinian national sentiment as such prior to latter stages of the conflict, the UN  partition plan

and resolution. One could say that in a sense, the Jewish quest for a homeland also coalesced the Palestinians into what they

are today. Given a different set of historical conditions and events, things could have looked different.

 

While Israel did win wars which ended up in territorial gains, and despite denials, did its fair share in evicting the Palestinian

population during these wars, it did not "squeeze the Palestinians out of existence" - if it did, there wouldn't be that much of

an issue today. It is also nothing like what Hitler did to the Jews - there are no death camps, no genocide.

[johna]

Israel's hypocrisy over news reporting and cease fire.

Al Jazeera journalists targeted by expanding Israeli war machine

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lovj7ng6Ug

 

 

[dr_lucas]

 

 

Israel's present atrocity will only bring Jihad and ISIS to their doorstep. This is a disaster for Israel. They needed to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians and all they're doing is creating a new generation of terrorists. Killing children is not the way to go about this. Mossad should have been all over Hamas and the rocket locations. There was no need for any of this.

 

 

 

 

 

So, if you come to me and attack me and AFTER that I will defend my self and even punch you in order to stop you harming me, this is what you call atrocity ?

 

You guys have a serious problem. Beer anyone?

 

 

This is not about stopping the rockets. I have proved that in previous posts.

 

The Stop the Rockets mantra is a weak attempt to muddy the waters. Israel has made an art form out of playing the victim.

 

 

Israel entered Gaza due to the rockets and currently staying in Gaza to continue searching & destroying them and the newly discovered underground terror tunnels.

I've read all your posts so far and you've proved nothing other than the fact that you hold biased anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian opinion and that your sole purpose is to demonize Israel, ignoring every other contradicting fact that will be displayed to you and supporting any assumption and/or interpretation that support your opinion.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

Posts removed to enabe response.

 

I can accept a news report can be inaccurate, but it does quote IDF, again maybe inaccurate reporting.

 

"The IDF announced on Sunday that it was setting up a field hospital at the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The field hospital was set to begin functioning at 8 p.m. on Sunday."

 

Forgive me, but I still find it a real challenge to believe 100s of doctors are allocated to a facility dedicated to ”serve mainly women and children and will include a delivery room”. If you insist it's true so be it.

 

Are there that many civilians expected to be transported to the Field Hospital for triage & treatment? If so confirms the reported volume of civilian women and child casualties that some are busily denying and saying its’ just Palestinian propaganda.

 

Again I say it's good that Israel is providing medical services for "enemy civilians". I would not expect otherwise; it is standard practice for democratic countries with professional armed forces.

 

 

I wish I took some pictures for you to believe it, but anyway, here is a more detailed report: http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-set-to-open-field-hospital-for-wounded-gazans/

As I said just above, your desire to know the accurate number of doctors, hundreds, thousands or 50, is just nitpicking and you simply seem to miss the main point.

As said by @Liviu: even there are, say, 36% of Israeli doctors, who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. The whole point is about Israel helping the injured.

 

 

One last time. I am not 'nitpicking' I am questioning your previous claims. Already stated three times respect for Israel efforts to treat the wounded and sick civilians that, by the way, should not be viewed as extraordinary. However, your, in effect over the top propaganda does not help. As someone has mentioned regards one of your claims 'blatant lie', I won't go that likely you made a claim based upon lack of facts, that you now seem to acknowledge.

 

 

 

I've already answered your question several times, I won't do it again, unless you want to buy my flight ticket or fly yourself to get an accurate count of all the medical doctors, paramedics, nurses and engineers in that hospital. I never meant to describe this as something extraordinary, but it's also nothing to dismiss or belittle and it was posted to make a factual example of the fact that Israel is humanitarian and not a murdering war-criminal machine or that there is a massacre or genocide that Israel's demonizers here seem so eager to portray.

As for the UG's "blatant lie" comment, I wonder how you bumped into it, while you missed the explanation UG gave that he actually didn't call my claim, but called the claim I responded to a blatant lie.

[simple1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posts removed to enabe response.

 

I can accept a news report can be inaccurate, but it does quote IDF, again maybe inaccurate reporting.

 

"The IDF announced on Sunday that it was setting up a field hospital at the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The field hospital was set to begin functioning at 8 p.m. on Sunday."

 

Forgive me, but I still find it a real challenge to believe 100s of doctors are allocated to a facility dedicated to ”serve mainly women and children and will include a delivery room”. If you insist it's true so be it.

 

Are there that many civilians expected to be transported to the Field Hospital for triage & treatment? If so confirms the reported volume of civilian women and child casualties that some are busily denying and saying its’ just Palestinian propaganda.

 

Again I say it's good that Israel is providing medical services for "enemy civilians". I would not expect otherwise; it is standard practice for democratic countries with professional armed forces.

 

 

I wish I took some pictures for you to believe it, but anyway, here is a more detailed report: http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-set-to-open-field-hospital-for-wounded-gazans/

As I said just above, your desire to know the accurate number of doctors, hundreds, thousands or 50, is just nitpicking and you simply seem to miss the main point.

As said by @Liviu: even there are, say, 36% of Israeli doctors, who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. The whole point is about Israel helping the injured.

 

 

One last time. I am not 'nitpicking' I am questioning your previous claims. Already stated three times respect for Israel efforts to treat the wounded and sick civilians that, by the way, should not be viewed as extraordinary. However, your, in effect over the top propaganda does not help. As someone has mentioned regards one of your claims 'blatant lie', I won't go that likely you made a claim based upon lack of facts, that you now seem to acknowledge.

 

 

 

I've already answered your question several times, I won't do it again, unless you want to buy my flight ticket or fly yourself to get an accurate count of all the medical doctors, paramedics, nurses and engineers in that hospital. I never meant to describe this as something extraordinary, but it's also nothing to dismiss or belittle and it was posted to make a factual example of the fact that Israel is humanitarian and not a murdering war-criminal machine or that there is a massacre or genocide that Israel's demonizers here seem so eager to portray.

As for the UG's "blatant lie" comment, I wonder how you bumped into it, while you missed the explanation UG gave that he actually didn't call my claim, but called the claim I responded to a blatant lie.

 

 

Apologies for misunderstanding UG's comment
 

[Ulysses G.]

As for the UG's "blatant lie" comment, I wonder how you bumped into it, while you missed the explanation UG gave that he actually didn't call my claim, but called the claim I responded to a blatant lie.

Correct. Sorry that my post was not clear the first time. dr_lucas was responding to a blatant lie.

[Morch]

What's going on is indefensible. Netanyahu should be arrested and tried at the Hague for war crimes.

 

The best way of dealing with Hamas would have been to up the the capability and coverage of the anti-rocket iron dome system and flood Gaza with aid and kindness while at the same time rooting out Hamas rocket production and locations on the ground.

 

I believe this began with Netanyahu blaming Hamas for the murder of three Israeli teens, something Hamas denied, but Netanyahu wouldn't believe them. Now hundreds of children are dead. As of tonight 160 children have been killed and 1300 injured.

 

Time to rid ourselves of this utter delusion that countries and borders actually exist. In this regard, only men with guns exist.

 

The Iron Dome capability stands at about 90%, not much to improve on that front. That said, probably would never be a 100% system, and would not eliminate the need of population to run into shelters every time an alarm sounds. As the system does not intercept all missiles (mostly those targeted at populated areas) damages will not be wholly avoided either. One of these days the Hamas (or another organization) is bound to get something better than what they launch now - what then?

 

Flooding Gaza with aid and kindness - no issues with that. You may want to look into Hamas refusing to accept goods that are transferred through Israeli ports, and piling issues over border pass controls just to make a political point (vs. Israel, PA

and Egypt, alternately). Hamas refuses funds transferred from various donors being administered by the PA, thereby making life harder for its own people.

 

Rooting out rocket production and locations on the ground - how can this be done without applying military force? Not like the Hamas will dismantle because the above aid and kindness. If this is supposed to assume some supernatural abilities by Israel's intelligence services - well, they're good, but not that good, no one is.

 

 

I believe that the aid and kindness part is a long term interest and means to get somewhere. The problem is that at the same time, there are short term issues that need to be addressed. There are usually no magic solutions and hardly ever any simple ones. At least not the kind that work.
 

[beechguy]

 

As for the UG's "blatant lie" comment, I wonder how you bumped into it, while you missed the explanation UG gave that he actually didn't call my claim, but called the claim I responded to a blatant lie.

Correct. Sorry that my post was not clear the first time. dr_lucas was responding to a blatant lie.

 

 

Come on UG, get it together.

 

For my self, I regret the loss of innocent life on both sides, but Hamas makes that rather difficult. As to anyone supportive of the Palestinians/Hamas, I doubt if many, or if any of you have actually lived in an Arab or Muslim country. The problem with the Palestinians, is that they started stupid, and went downhill from there. Look at the history of the past 45 years. People like me, may have had some sympathy at one time, but after a continuous string of actions, like the wars in 67 and 73, murdering athletes, plane hijackings and suicide bombers, I don't. If Hamas doesn't care about it's population, why should Israel. I say bomb away, and the more, the better.

[Morch]

Today Hamas have offered a far more realistic cease fire than that suggested by Egypt recently - and which was correctly rejected - it offered nothing to Gazans who have been under siege by first Israel, then Egypt, since 2007. No country would accept this. If Israel had been under such a blockade they would have cracked long before now.

Basically, Hamas say end the blockade and we will stop fighting.

 

Hamas also demanded the release of the 350 odd prisoners who were detained as part of the indiscriminate sweep following the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli students. That is also one which Israel should find easy to negotiate - release all of those who have clearly had no involvement with the kidnapping. Show what evidence is being used to justify holding others for potential charges.

 

Hamas noted their willingness to negotiate, and even offered the possibility a limited humanitarian truce to evacuate the wounded and assist in [aid] relief for those Gazans caught up in the fighting.

 

Before the loonytoons on TV let loose (and they will, they will) let me add that I see this as a possible starting point, not a take-it-or-leave-it offer. If Israel has any integrity (and I know many people have given up on this already, but I am an eternal optimist) then they will use this offer to negotiate a ceasefire that patially lifts the blockade for a limited time, but ensure they are able to inspect shipments into Gaza, so that potentially dual use materials (like cement) is rejected or, preferably, rigidly accounted for. 

 

A ceasefire would mean Israel can stop throwing their own young men into needless early deaths, aside from lessening the international enmity toward Israel caused by continuing to attack targets that obviously will cause most damage to civilians.

 

If there is no counter proposal from Israel, we can only assume that their desire to destroy the tentative links between Hamas and Fatah is far stronger than their sense of responsibility for human life, and the long-term project of the West Bank landgrab is worth more to Netanyahu than the lives of IDF soldiers.

 

 

The Hamas does not accept Israel's right to inspect shipments into the Gaza Strip. Israel's stance was that shipments are to be transferred through a nearby Israeli port, and post inspection would be transferred to the Gaza Strip. There were similar issues plaguing negotiations and talks in the past - mainly to do with definitions of dual-use materials, assuring a viable way to monitor use of materials in the Gaza Strip and having PA officials handling some of the transactions.

 

The same goes for transfer of funds - which most donor countries (other than Iran and Qatar) insist on being transferred via the PA or UN agencies, as they do not recognize the Hamas as an official Palestinian representative.

 

The last bit is nonsense, Israel already agreed to one proposal (which the Hamas brushed aside), and accepted a couple of short term ceasefires during the hostilities (broken by Hamas). Apparently another go at a short ceasefire to be tried tomorrow morning.

 

I would have thought that as an elected government, the Hamas would do all it could to minimize the casualties among the Palestinians, even if it is a temporary respite or at the cost of losing some prestige.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

As for the UG's "blatant lie" comment, I wonder how you bumped into it, while you missed the explanation UG gave that he actually didn't call my claim, but called the claim I responded to a blatant lie.

Correct. Sorry that my post was not clear the first time. dr_lucas was responding to a blatant lie.

 

 

Come on UG, get it together.

 

For my self, I regret the loss of innocent life on both sides, but Hamas makes that rather difficult. As to anyone supportive of the Palestinians/Hamas, I doubt if many, or if any of you have actually lived in an Arab or Muslim country. The problem with the Palestinians, is that they started stupid, and went downhill from there. Look at the history of the past 45 years. People like me, may have had some sympathy at one time, but after a continuous string of actions, like the wars in 67 and 73, murdering athletes, plane hijackings and suicide bombers, I don't. If Hamas doesn't care about it's population, why should Israel. I say bomb away, and the more, the better.

 

 

You can't really regret the loss of innocent life on both sides, while supporting as much bombing as possible. This is just a radical and unnecessary addition to an otherwise fine post IMHO.

Luckily the Israeli people and government are not radical (despite what some of its demonizers try to make people think).

If the Hamas does not care about its' own population while attacking Israel, Hamas should be dealt with surgically while following the code of conduct and respecting international laws - protecting innocent civilians, to the best of the ability in the situation, which is exactly what Israel's IDF is doing.

 

P.S. Talking about radicals, in a sense, the Palestinians are actually quite lucky to have a very small, fragile & moral country as Israel by its side, in comparison with countries like Russia or China who would have probably do just what you suggested ("bomb away, and the more, the better") and the world would have keep silence.

[Morch]

 

 

I see the UN are considering war crimes charges.

 

pictures say more than words and this is what happens when you use modern battlefield weapons on civilianshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702485/Israel-investigated-war-crimes-Gaza-UN-says.html

 

While continuously posting  photogenic photos of one side of the story can be very misleading, please also post some long length videos showing exactly how these unfortunate incidents occur in the first place, to put it more into context.

 

Nothing photogenic about those pictures my friend.

 

Take a look at some of the worlds newsites today and you will see many pictures like that. The IDF and the Israeli government cannot silence the worlds media.

 

Israel should have kept to the 1948 borders. Instead it has now taken 78% of the land in violation of the UN charter and Geneva convention plus many UN resolutions. The rest of Palestinian land is under siege and occupation.

 

 

It is not as if the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors actually agreed to the 1948 borders, though (post-war, that is).  If you meant as per the UN resolution borders - Israel accepted them, and did not start that war. The failure to reach an agreement right then was cannot be said to be solely Israel's responsibility.

 

The Israeli stance right after the 1967 war and its territorial gains was that they were willing to talk, albeit this was done in a cocky manner and the Arab countries were reluctant to head into negotiations from a weak position. As the saying went back then the Israelis were waiting for a call - the phone didn't ring. Things could have been done differently, but that cuts both ways.

[Morch]

 

 

 

I wish Hamas would drop his weapons away so both the Arabs (from Gaza) and the Israelis (I did not say just "Jewish" because in Israel are living also Christians, Muslims, Jewish) will continue to live in peace.

 

I agree - with the proviso that Israel also gives up its blockade and land grab.
 

 

 

Israel does not grab any land in Gaza since 2005. It has the right to block entry to Israel from anyone, like any sovereign country, and just as you have the right to block strangers from entering your own home.

Before you say that, yes, they also allow block the sea access beyond 3km from shore, but that's because the Palestinians were using the sea to smuggle arms from Iran and Hizbullah and in any case Israel let the Palestinians get anything they import from the sea, through its own ports, after promptly being security inspected.

Gaza has another border, with Egypt, their Arab "brothers", which Egypt blocks, as they also have the right to do. I wonder why nobody complains about Egypt.

 

 

Israel are not grabbing land in Gaza. They are grabbing land on the West Bank, as you well know. Stop being dim and address the issues. Don't try and slip them aside by blathering. The war on Gaza is linked to Israel's desire to keep Fatah and Hamas apart. The on-going "liitle war" in the West Bank (Hebron etc) is another part of this. The whole of the anti-Palestinian game that Israel so cynically plays is designed with the purpose of claiming more and more land in the West Bank. And pushing the theft of Palestinian property futher and further into histpry, in the hope that the question of compensation will never be pursued. I suspect Israel WANTS to occupy Palestine to prevent a 2 state solution. The last think the Zionists in Israel want are settled borders.

 

As an Israeli - or Jew with emotional attachment to Israel - stopping the deaths of IDF soldiers should be a higher priority than supporting the machinations of greedy and obsessed old men who have an unhealthy attachment to a supernatural being. As a human being, the deaths of Palestinian civilians should concern you enough to question the policies and practices of your elders that are leading to this situation. That you don't question or indicate any concern for dying children unless they are Israeli reveals a total lack of empathy, the primary sign of a sociopath. Rather than concern for humanity, your concern appears to be only to obfuscate the reality of what is happening in Gaza, and trying to justify the out-of-control Israeli state. Unfortunately, I suspect these undesirable attributes are shared by many (thankfully not all) Israelis.

 

And I have touched on the Raffah issue elsewhere. Do you really have no understanding of what is happening between Hamas and Egypt? Do you really want the Raffah border opened? (I will answer for you.  No - Iyou are happy it is closed). But if you feel that the Egyptians are the real baddies for not opening the Raffah crossing, why don't you start a thread demanding that they do so?  Then you won't have to feel guilty about diverting anyone's attention from the discussion on this thread that concerns the real culprits of the Gaza tragedy - the right wing Zionists.

 

 

So, the PA and Hamas have no real issues and differences, and these are all a plot by Israel?  Must be quite annoying for Palestinians to keep hearing this, as if Palestinians have no political differences, no political will, just marionettes manipulated by Israel. Sort of demeaning, isn't it?

 

When the claim is made that Israel wants to "occupy" or "annexe" the West Bank, does that mean Arab Israelis support the notion? Does it include voters for the opposition? Or maybe its just an easy way to make a general claim which sounds a bit more impressive than saying that some of the right wing parties hold such fantasies?

 

As for the sanctity of life, how does this apply for Hamas's leadership, mostly safe underground, and allowing death and destruction to rain on their people? Shouldn't their first priority be putting a stop to the fighting as quick as possible? Why is it some seem to think it is alright for Hamas to keep haggling over ceasefire terms, even a short one, while civilians are getting killed?

 

How is raising the issue of Egypt's culpability in upholding the blockade on the Gaza Strip a deflection? It is not a question if a poster wants it open or not, it is more about showing that things are more complex then some try to present. If Egypt was to temporarily open the border for non-combatant Palestinians and set a safe zone near the border, to be administered by the UN (and probably easy to fund under these conditions as well) - doubt if anyone would object to that.

[Morch]

 

Israel has the military firepower and lack of conscience required to continue murdering Palestinians, and it won't stop until it's gotten its fill.  No one doubts that it will win this massacre it started on an utterly false premise.

 

But in the medium to long term, Israel's actions are only going to harm itself.   Without support from the US, Israel will be completely alone on the world stage with no one to protect it from the justice it so readily deserves.  And the polling indicates that the younger generation in the US isn't going to support Israel like many of their parents did.  And this is for one reason and one reason only:  Israel's inhumane actions.  Even younger Evangelical Christians in the US are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

 

The writing is on the wall and if Israel is concerned about its viability, it had better read what it says, or in a few generations it may end up alongside Yugoslavia, Bengal and Prussia on the scrap heap of history.

 

Yup.

Israel's present atrocity will only bring Jihad and ISIS to their doorstep. This is a disaster for Israel. They needed to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians and all they're doing is creating a new generation of terrorists. Killing children is not the way to go about this. Mossad should have been all over Hamas and the rocket locations. There was no need for any of this.

 

 

From the way things look now, seems like many parts of Gaza are riddled with underground tunnels, hideaways and other facilities. If you really thing that a covert operation could take out all of this, guess we have a different meaning of covert. Most of these run under residential areas and public buildings, it would be impossible to take out without collateral damage. There is no short term way to disarm a terrorist organization that does not involve violence.

 

At the same time, it is true that the continued fighting acts as a breeding ground for generations filled with hatred and ready to for some aggro.

 

There is no easy answer on how to deal with this situation. It could probably not be either all peaceful or all aggression, but a mix of both, with diplomacy hopefully getting the lion's share of this as things move along. The problem with that is that the levels of hatred, distrust and anger on both sides seem too high to get it going. Even when things seem to go on track, very easy for elements in either side to derail it by carrying out some violent action.

[Morch]

 

Some posts removed due to limits on quoted material.

 

I mean to say the the IDF Airplanes missiles lack the engineering ability to isolate a single house in a congested area. Also engineers can't go anywhere near the area many times, as it will be too risky for the "boots on the ground" forces. The houses are not destroyed due to crimes, but due to the fact they are used to store missiles and used as missile factories.

Going back to 2001-2005 actions by the Israeli government, before it even withdrew from Gaza, is irrelevant to what we are discussing, I agree some of these actions were indeed wrong, but that's completely different than the ways and reasons discussed here.

 

Are you seriously comparing the IDF current defensive actions after Israel being constantly attacked by rockets, after everything I wrote and posted, to the Holocaust and what the Nazi did to 6 million jews?

 

 

You did not need to explain that you meant missiles. Of course I accept that the engineering options are then far more limited. Well, yes there are indeed some parallels that even you must acknowledge. Thank the stars that we will probably never see an exact parallel of those times again, but today the treatment meted out to Palestinians shows similarities to the inhumanity of that dark period of Europe's history. Both situations involve(d):

- the murder of innocent civilians - including women and children - who have done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and share a religion / ethnicity despised by those in power.

- the gratuitous destruction of the property of innocent people by military thugs.

- the theft of valuables (in this case, farms, water and other traditional livelihoods).

- the use of a highly organised propaganda machine to attempt to portray the victims as lesser human beings, and to deceive the rest of the world about what is happening.

- a government organised campaign to encourage or force them to leave - or be punished.

- imprisonment without trial.

 

And of course German Jews did not fire rockets, but in the eyes of the German people in the 1930s Jews were destroying the safety and well-being of the people of Germany.

 

I am pleased that you do acknowledge the policy of punitive demolishing of houses in 2001-5 was not really acceptable. It does show your efforts to be even handed. However, it it has been reported in the Washington Post that this policy has in fact been re-introduced last week. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

 

The final point of disagreement I have over your last post is that the current IDF actions are defensive. It is not only me who is questioning how "defensive" it is to launch an armada of the most advanced weaponry in the world against backyard explosives with no accurate launching capacity and a few AK47s - the UN and non-aligned nations have also been condemning the IDFs current actions.

 

 

 

It seems that according to this learned comparison, there are quite a few wars and military operations that should be classed as Holocausts.

 

I would have thought that the absence of death camps, millions executed, minorities gone would serve as rather more salient indicators when trying to tell the difference between a Holocaust and horrors of war, but whatever floats one's boat.

[MJP]

 

 

Israel has the military firepower and lack of conscience required to continue murdering Palestinians, and it won't stop until it's gotten its fill.  No one doubts that it will win this massacre it started on an utterly false premise.

 

But in the medium to long term, Israel's actions are only going to harm itself.   Without support from the US, Israel will be completely alone on the world stage with no one to protect it from the justice it so readily deserves.  And the polling indicates that the younger generation in the US isn't going to support Israel like many of their parents did.  And this is for one reason and one reason only:  Israel's inhumane actions.  Even younger Evangelical Christians in the US are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

 

The writing is on the wall and if Israel is concerned about its viability, it had better read what it says, or in a few generations it may end up alongside Yugoslavia, Bengal and Prussia on the scrap heap of history.

 

Yup.

Israel's present atrocity will only bring Jihad and ISIS to their doorstep. This is a disaster for Israel. They needed to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians and all they're doing is creating a new generation of terrorists. Killing children is not the way to go about this. Mossad should have been all over Hamas and the rocket locations. There was no need for any of this.

 

 

From the way things look now, seems like many parts of Gaza are riddled with underground tunnels, hideaways and other

facilities. If you really thing that a covert operation could take out all of this, guess we have a different meaning of covert.

Most of these run under residential areas and public buildings, it would be impossible to take out without collateral damage.

There is no short term way to disarm a terrorist organization that does not involve violence.

 

At the same time, it is true that the continued fighting acts as a breeding ground for generations filled with hatred and ready

to for some aggro.

 

There is no easy answer on how to deal with this situation. It could probably not be either all peaceful or all aggression, but

a mix of both, with diplomacy hopefully getting the lion's share of this as things move along. The problem with that is that the

levels of hatred, distrust and anger on both sides seem too high to get it going. Even when things seem to go on track, very

easy for elements in either side to derail it by carrying out some violent action.

 

 

This can only be won by winning the hearts and minds of Gazan's. Netanyahu has played right into the hands of Hamas. Israel now looks like both the provocateur and the aggressor. Antagonism will now go on for a couple more generations. On UK news Israel is being portrayed as evil-doers, for what little it's worth.

 

If Israel had just kept bringing down Hamas homemade rockets, showed the World what was going on and how they were dealing with it and if they opened up to the Gazan's and helped them instead then Hamas would a. look stupid and b. their own would turn on them.

 

Because the other way simply won't work.

[Morch]

 

 

Well, at least if you wrote "165 innocent children have been killed in the past 17 days", you could have sounded just a bit less biased and one-sided.

I'd like to ask you just 2 questions, please just take a moment answer these:

Do you know the IDF warns (to evacuate) all civilians in a specific area before they enter it, by throwing hundreds of thousands of warning leaflets from planes, calling the area residents' home and mobile phones, sending SMSs and using very powerful audio announcement systems?

Do you know Hamas instructs all those people to stay at home, even if they have to sacrifice their lives?

 

 

Given how many times I hear that Hamas forces people to be "shields", can we agree that Gazans are hostages in a sense? 

 

Now imagine a guy terrorizes a neighborhood driving like a madman, hits and kills a couple kids, causes lots of damage. He grabs 3 kids and turns to face the police. Do the police open fire and take them all out? Maybe.. I really don't know.

 

But this is what my mind keeps thinking of when I envision being a human shield. How far off am I?

 

 

Not sure if the example applies.

 

I think that most situation faced by the IDF are less clear cut than that, with Hamas using civilian presence for cover, rather than facing the IDF directly and holding civilians in-front of them. This is caused by locating facilities near and under houses, public buildings and instructing the population to disregard IDF instructions and warnings.

 

Does it solve the moral dilemma? No. Perhaps making it even trickier.

[Morch]

 

 

 

Israel has the military firepower and lack of conscience required to continue murdering Palestinians, and it won't stop until it's gotten its fill.  No one doubts that it will win this massacre it started on an utterly false premise.

 

But in the medium to long term, Israel's actions are only going to harm itself.   Without support from the US, Israel will be completely alone on the world stage with no one to protect it from the justice it so readily deserves.  And the polling indicates that the younger generation in the US isn't going to support Israel like many of their parents did.  And this is for one reason and one reason only:  Israel's inhumane actions.  Even younger Evangelical Christians in the US are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

 

The writing is on the wall and if Israel is concerned about its viability, it had better read what it says, or in a few generations it may end up alongside Yugoslavia, Bengal and Prussia on the scrap heap of history.

 

Yup.

Israel's present atrocity will only bring Jihad and ISIS to their doorstep. This is a disaster for Israel. They needed to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians and all they're doing is creating a new generation of terrorists. Killing children is not the way to go about this. Mossad should have been all over Hamas and the rocket locations. There was no need for any of this.

 

 

From the way things look now, seems like many parts of Gaza are riddled with underground tunnels, hideaways and other

facilities. If you really thing that a covert operation could take out all of this, guess we have a different meaning of covert.

Most of these run under residential areas and public buildings, it would be impossible to take out without collateral damage.

There is no short term way to disarm a terrorist organization that does not involve violence.

 

At the same time, it is true that the continued fighting acts as a breeding ground for generations filled with hatred and ready

to for some aggro.

 

There is no easy answer on how to deal with this situation. It could probably not be either all peaceful or all aggression, but

a mix of both, with diplomacy hopefully getting the lion's share of this as things move along. The problem with that is that the

levels of hatred, distrust and anger on both sides seem too high to get it going. Even when things seem to go on track, very

easy for elements in either side to derail it by carrying out some violent action.

 

 

This can only be won by winning the hearts and minds of Gazan's. Netanyahu has played right into the hands of Hamas. Israel now looks like both the provocateur and the aggressor. Antagonism will now go on for a couple more generations. On UK news Israel is being portrayed as evil-doers, for what little it's worth.

 

If Israel had just kept bringing down Hamas homemade rockets, showed the World what was going on and how they were dealing with it and if they opened up to the Gazan's and helped them instead then Hamas would a. look stupid and b. their own would turn on them.

 

Because the other way simply won't work.

 

 

The Hamas does not care much about looking stupid. And that's not necessarily the images Gazan's get to see. A lot of effort goes into domestic propaganda. Without any incentive, why would the the Gazan's turn on them?

 

By various estimates, Hamas and other organizations got (or had) thousands if not tens of thousands rockets stockpiled. Without an effective means to attack launchers, production and storage facilities, this would mean a heavy barrage of rockets coming down on Israel. Even with 90% successes rate, the damage could be quite heavy. Apart from expecting the Israeli public to just put up with it sounding not very reasonable, it would also mean a probable end to the political career of any prime minister to go this way. Not with results for this strategy being less than assured, not very tangible, and long term oriented.

 

That said - of course the current back and forth of rocket fire meets air raids, with the ground operation extra every couple of years, that does not work as well. Certainly doesn't win any hearts and minds. No easy answers here.

[Morch]

Yesterday, Navi Pillay, the UN rights chief told an emergency session of the council on Wednesday that Israel's military actions in Gaza could amount to war crimes.

 

Shortly thereafter, the 47-member council voted (and adopted) a draft resolution titled "Ensuring respect for international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" to conduct an investigation whether Israel is indeed engaging in war crimes. Note: this was a vote just to conduct an investigation, nothing more nothing less, no military intervention, no aid, nothing: just an attempt to get some information aside from the constant propaganda barrage.

 

29 states voted in favour of the investigation and 17 abstained, including many EU states. 1 voted against. Guess which one.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626

 

Just under half of the The UN Human Right Council resolutions addressing specific countries deal with Israel.

One would think that there are other human rights violations around the world worth looking into. The council

sometimes appoints special rapporteurs to investigate specific violations. These commissions usually have a

fixed term mandate, all except Israel's. And yes, the special rapporteur's mandate applies mostly to violations

by Israel, not the Palestinians.

 

Sounds reasonable, eh?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council#Israel 
 

[danmarnj]

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

[CBR250]

 

What's going on is indefensible. Netanyahu should be arrested and tried at the Hague for war crimes.

 

The best way of dealing with Hamas would have been to up the the capability and coverage of the anti-rocket iron dome system and flood Gaza with aid and kindness while at the same time rooting out Hamas rocket production and locations on the ground.

 

I believe this began with Netanyahu blaming Hamas for the murder of three Israeli teens, something Hamas denied, but Netanyahu wouldn't believe them. Now hundreds of children are dead. As of tonight 160 children have been killed and 1300 injured.

 

Time to rid ourselves of this utter delusion that countries and borders actually exist. In this regard, only men with guns exist.

 

The Iron Dome capability stands at about 90%, not much to improve on that front. That said, probably would never be a 100% system, and would not eliminate the need of population to run into shelters every time an alarm sounds. As the system does not intercept all missiles (mostly those targeted at populated areas) damages will not be wholly avoided either. One of these days the Hamas (or another organization) is bound to get something better than what they launch now - what then?

 

Flooding Gaza with aid and kindness - no issues with that. You may want to look into Hamas refusing to accept goods that are transferred through Israeli ports, and piling issues over border pass controls just to make a political point (vs. Israel, PA

and Egypt, alternately). Hamas refuses funds transferred from various donors being administered by the PA, thereby making life harder for its own people.

 

Rooting out rocket production and locations on the ground - how can this be done without applying military force? Not like the Hamas will dismantle because the above aid and kindness. If this is supposed to assume some supernatural abilities by Israel's intelligence services - well, they're good, but not that good, no one is.

 

 

I believe that the aid and kindness part is a long term interest and means to get somewhere. The problem is that at the same time, there are short term issues that need to be addressed. There are usually no magic solutions and hardly ever any simple ones. At least not the kind that work.
 

 

 

I think your are correct on almost all of your points. However, I do think that the battle for hearts and minds is especially important at present. Kindness and civilian support cannot be left while the short term military issues are addressed. Israel woud benefit from distinguishing between Hamas combatants and local residents & acknowledging and sincerely apologising when it is at fault (eg when it has destroyed not only a target building, but those surrounding it; if the IDF has indeed shelled the UNWRA refuges by mistke, admit it, and apologise for such an horrific acident  - don't lie to avoid blame). Maybe this is a poor example, but there are many other ways in which Israel could adopt a more humane position of integrity, and ensure that Palestinians can better understand, if not accept, Israel's actions. If the sole aim is to dismantle Hamas' rocket capability, surely it is important to avoid any damage to the civilian population, and show sincere remorse when they do - not tell people it's your own fault that your home is destroyed and your children dead. This will serve only to force any nonaligned or questioning Palestinians into the arms of Hamas.

 

I assume that Israel would not want to accept responsibility for civilian damage as it would mean they would have to provide reparations to those affected. From the amount of damage evident on reports, this will not come cheap. But if this approach had been taken years ago, maybe the super expensive Iron Dome would not be necessary today. (Naturally a major tragedy for the military profiteers in Israel and the US, but that's another story).

 

 

Edited July 26, 2014 by CBR250

[CBR250]

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

And you could consider that things ma be not really so simple re Hamas. Hamas have been a little coy about the original charter that called for the destruction of Israel. Even at present in the midst of the destruction of much of Gaza by Israelis we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment. Most Palestinians, and even Hamas in their quieter moments, accept the existence of Israel. Of course, there are some murderous radicals who live on hatred, just as there are amongst Zionists. Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

(see for example: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/confused-hamas-rockets-war-gaza-plus-israeli-occupation-lawful-versus-unlawful-war-israel-illegal-weapons-targeting-hospitals.html) So, Hamas position is maybe not so simple as you suggest.

 

And your attitude to "territory" is precisely why many in the international community are suspicious of Israel. Land theft seems far more important to those Zionists in control of Israel than does a 2 state solution which could bring peace to both peoples. If you examine the changes in boundaries since 1967, Israel is clearly stealing Palestinian land. The constant de-railing of any glimmers of light in the peace process is indicative of this agenda amongst Israel's leaders. They accept extending the conflict and sacrificing lives (preferably Palestinian, but Israelis too where necessary) just so long as they can keep stealing land.

[Ulysses G.]

Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

Oh really?

Article 7 of the Hamas Charter reads:

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews."

That is pretty hard to spin, for anything other that what it is.

"Hamas, a Palestinian Islamist organization, was founded in Gaza in 1987 by Shaikh Ahmed Yassin. The organization is best known for its suicide bombings and other attacks mainly directed at Israeli civilians.
Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean See."
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/statute-treaties/hamas_charter.htm Edited July 26, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

 

Still others suggest that the accusation that Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel is not just selective misquoting, but an outright lie.

Oh really?

Article 7 of the Hamas Charter reads:

"The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews."

That is pretty hard to spin. for anything other that what it is.

 

 

Is that taken from the official IDF or AIPAC translation?

 

 

Edited July 26, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[uptheos]

 

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

 we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment..

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

[Jingthing]

...

You are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. I would not conflate Zionist fascists, Jews and Israelis, as it preents an understanding of the dynamics of the situation.

 

Funny. 

You just seemed to imply that all Zionists are fascists.

That is completely untrue.

I am sick and tired of Israel demonizers acting like Zionism is a dirty word.

I guess it is not surprising because so much of the world considers Jew a dirty word too.

Usually the same people!

 

 

I'm done apologizing for Israel.

It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more.Paint me blue.

So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html

Edited July 26, 2014 by Jingthing

[CBR250]

 

 

many of Israel's problems these days grow from its decision not to conquer territory, but to relinquish territory.  Israeli settlers were removed from Gaza and it was returned to Palestine.  Israeli's left standing its greenhouses for the Palestinians after uprooting its citizens.

 

What did the palestinians do?  Tear down the greenhouses, built tunnels and brought in weapons.  Now partnered with Hamas,  whose objective is to destroy Israel.  

 

 

 

 we do not hear Khaled Meshaal or other Hamas leaders voicing this sentiment..

 

 

What we do hear from Khaled Meshaal is a long list of demands that he knows will never be met.

All made from his luxurious suite in Doha. Does this guy ever get close to 'his' people in reality?

 

 

You seriously expect him to go to Gaza with Isarel's long history of political assassinations???  C'mon, offer something sensible.