Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

[Seastallion]

25 people from 4 families (including 19 children) gathered to break the Ramadan fast, and they were murdered by Israel.

 

19 children.

 

Justice for these war crimes will come for Israel one day. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/questions-about-tactics-and-targets-as-civilian-toll-climbs-in-israeli-strikes.html

 

 

One Hamas militant. 19 children and 4 other adults.

It's unforgivable. 

I don't know how the cowards that give the orders can sleep at night.

I don't know how the soldier that pulled the trigger can live with himself.

[johna]

Israel's peace plan.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9KDhsFFfGU

[boomerangutang]

You admit then that israel fired the first shot bombing Egyptian airports.

That was a master stroke of military strategy. Find out Egyptians jets are fueling up to going to attack you, and then do a daring pre-emptive strike to their launching area. Call it 'fired first' if you want, but it's not denigrating to the IDF. It's complimentary.

Another daring raid was the rescue of Israeli passengers/hostages at the Entebbe airport. Excellent plan and execution. You gotta hand it to the Israelis even if you don't like 'em, they've got creative ideas and employ swift action re; military tactics. They also produce some of the world's finest quality small and medium weapons. The Middle East has several thousand years' history of military vying for territory. The conflicts we're witnessing nowadays are an extension of that.

[dexterm]

If they did  all that without massive security measures in place, Israel would be putting millions of their citizens lives at risk. Demonizers of Israel oddly seem to suggest that Jews should basically just commit suicide. Been there. Done that. They wouldn't expect that of any other people. Strange indeed. The tyranny of ridiculously high expectations on this one group -- Jews. Yes a first step for Palestinians to move towards peace is that all Palestinian governments need to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Zionist state and to prove they have given up on unconditional right of return to the land of Israel and also given up on ending Israel. Reason for optimism? No. Not at all. 

 

Speaking of Jews with opinions we are supposed to ignore just because they are Jews, check out the thoughts of iconic New York Jew intelligentsia Woody Allen:

 

 

Jews from New York are a very different brand from the Israelis. What’s your take on the situation in Gaza right now?

More terribleness. Ever since I can remember, when I was 21 years old, they were telling me, “Peace is around the corner between the Arabs and Israelis. The next generation. Right now, there’s a lot of bitterness, but with time, new generations will grow up and be more peaceful with each other.” This would go on and on and on, and in the end, nothing’s changed. This situation remains tragic and terrible, and the leaders in Israel and the leaders in the Arab world have not been able to come to an agreement. It’s a terrible, tragic thing. Innocent lives are lost left and right, and it’s a horrible situation that eventually has to right itself—but I say that without knowing that it will. I hope that it will, but it seems, at this point, that nobody on either side is ready, willing, and able to.

But I feel that the Arabs were not very nice in the beginning, and that was a big problem. The Jews had just come out of a terrible war where they were exterminated by the millions and persecuted all over Europe, and they were given this tiny, tiny piece of land in the desert. If the Arabs had just said, “Look, we know what you guys have been through, take this little piece of land and we’ll all be friends and help you,” and the Jews came in peace, but they didn’t. They werenot nice about it, and it led to problems, and over the years, both sides have made mistakes. There’ve been public relations mistakes, actual mistakes, and it’s been a terrible, terrible cycle of mismanagement and bad faith.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/18/woody-allen-on-magic-in-the-moonlight-the-crisis-in-gaza-new-york-city-and-those-allegations.html

 

 

>>Yes a first step for Palestinians to move towards peace is that all Palestinian governments need to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Zionist state and to prove they have given up on unconditional right of return to the land of Israel and also given up on ending Israel. Reason for optimism? No. Not at all

 

..actually Netanyahu asks that Israel be recognized as the "Jewish State of Israel" (not Zionist) He has started using this as a new precondition for peace talks since 2007 when all the Arab countries had already agreed to recognize the permanent secure borders of simply "the State of Israel."

 

What's in it for the Palestinians? Peace and prosperity of course, but anything about land swaps, compensation, East Jerusalem as its capital? When you negotiate both sides have to give and take.

[Jingthing]

Israel's peace plan.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9KDhsFFfGU

Support for the right of Israel to exist is not the same thing as unconditional support for everything the current leader of Israel has ever said or done. I'm a American. I hated Bush. I still wanted America to exist.

[Pralaad]

Why not just answer the question? You said there might be thousands of Israeli dead right now without "Protective" Edge. How?

 
Is that a tricky question? or you really can not see how?
 
Killed by rockets

[Pralaad]

 

25 people from 4 families (including 19 children) gathered to break the Ramadan fast, and they were murdered by Israel.
 
19 children.
 
Justice for these war crimes will come for Israel one day. 
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/questions-about-tactics-and-targets-as-civilian-toll-climbs-in-israeli-strikes.html

One Hamas militant. 19 children and 4 other adults.
It's unforgivable. 
I don't know how the cowards that give the orders can sleep at night.
I don't know how the soldier that pulled the trigger can live with himself.

 

If i had to guess, i would say better than the cowards hiding behind 19 children, though i doubts cowards hiding behind 19 children have any remorse..

 

[kblaze]

 

Why not just answer the question? You said there might be thousands of Israeli dead right now without "Protective" Edge. How?

 
Is that a tricky question? or you really can not see how?
 
Killed by rockets

 

 

That's strange because the terrorists have already launched well over a thousand rockets and only one civilian was killed by them. He was near a border crossing. Seems a bit far-fetched to say thousands would be killed by rockets eh?

Edited July 22, 2014 by kblaze

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel.

It is simple. The Arabs started the conflict in the first place, they started a bunch of wars and lost them and they have acted like savages ever since. Israel are far from perfect, but they are far more on the side of good than their enemies and have far more reason to have done the things they have done. All the Palestinians want to destroy them and all they want is to be left in peace.
I struggle to understand the attitude of those that make lame excuses and justifications for Islamic terrorists that purposely target innocent men, women and children for murder.

 

If Israel wants to be left in peace, stop settlement building and withdraw all it's citizens from all settlements in Palestine. Retreat to the 1967 borders and recognise Palestine as a sovereign state.

 

You mean go back to 1948, before numerous Arab armies declared war on them repeatedly? Just be nice. That worked out real well.

[Ulysses G.]

 

Clicked on your link, saw that it was an opinion piece by someone with the last name "Cohen" and laughed. Do you want me to start posting opinion pieces from the thousands of Muhammads writing about the conflict? Or shall we do what intelligent adults do and seek UNBIASED sources.

 

It appears this poster has asserted that it is logical to ignore the opinion of any and all Jews on Middle East matters. In my view, that represents a position of irrational bigotry. But not to worry, this policy won't be applied consistently. We will surely continue to see quotes from Jewish critics of Israel posted by those seeking to demonize Israel. In my observations, those seeking to demonize Israel often have a tendency to regard Jews who share their opinions with a bizarre special value. 

 

I would humbly suggest to give Mr. Cohen a read. Even though he's got a Jewish name. It couldn't hurt.

 

 

 

It is amusing how the Israel-haters use any opportunity to brandish the views of Jews that agree with their point of view, but scoff at any that don't and claim that they are "not UNBIASED". Jews have a diversity of opinions and a lot of them are journalists. If you accept Jewish opinions on one side of the issue, you have to admit that both sides are legitimate. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[HeijoshinCool]

 

We see a lot of pictures of rocket and bomb attacks or the results of the attacks in Gaza but I haven't seen any pictures of the attacks or the results of the attacks in Israel from Gaza.

That's because a small hole in an empty field is not newsworthy.

 

.

 

It was back in the fall of 2001. 

[kblaze]

 

 

Clicked on your link, saw that it was an opinion piece by someone with the last name "Cohen" and laughed. Do you want me to start posting opinion pieces from the thousands of Muhammads writing about the conflict? Or shall we do what intelligent adults do and seek UNBIASED sources.

 

It appears this poster has asserted that it is logical to ignore the opinion of any and all Jews on Middle East matters. In my view, that represents a position of irrational bigotry. But not to worry, this policy won't be applied consistently. We will surely continue to see quotes from Jewish critics of Israel posted by those seeking to demonize Israel. In my observations, those seeking to demonize Israel often have a tendency to regard Jews who share their opinions with a bizarre special value. 

 

I would humbly suggest to give Mr. Cohen a read. Even though he's got a Jewish name. It couldn't hurt.

 

 

 

It is amusing how the Israel-haters use any opportunity to brandish the views of Jews that agree with their point of view, but scoff at any that don't and claim that they are "not objective". Jews have a diversity of opinions and a lot of them are journalists. If you accept Jewish opinions on one side of the issues, you have to admit that both are legitimate. 

 

 

I'll repeat what I already said in my response to JT (which you so conveniently left out of your post)

 

When debating a war between two sides, one does not use OPINION pieces written by those with direct connections to either of the two sides.  

 

Reports by journalists with direct connections to either side are better to use in a debate given their end-goal; to report on an event. Reports by journalists with NO direct connections to the warring parties are the BEST to use.

 

Truly debate 101.

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

 

Clicked on your link, saw that it was an opinion piece by someone with the last name "Cohen" and laughed. Do you want me to start posting opinion pieces from the thousands of Muhammads writing about the conflict? Or shall we do what intelligent adults do and seek UNBIASED sources.

It appears this poster has asserted that it is logical to ignore the opinion of any and all Jews on Middle East matters. In my view, that represents a position of irrational bigotry. But not to worry, this policy won't be applied consistently. We will surely continue to see quotes from Jewish critics of Israel posted by those seeking to demonize Israel. In my observations, those seeking to demonize Israel often have a tendency to regard Jews who share their opinions with a bizarre special value. 
 
I would humbly suggest to give Mr. Cohen a read. Even though he's got a Jewish name. It couldn't hurt.

 

 
 
It is amusing how the Israel-haters use any opportunity to brandish the views of Jews that agree with their point of view, but scoff at any that don't and claim that they are "not objective". Jews have a diversity of opinions and a lot of them are journalists. If you accept Jewish opinions on one side of the issues, you have to admit that both are legitimate.

 

 
I'll repeat what I already said in my response to JT (which you so conveniently left out of your post)
 
When debating a war between two sides, one does not use OPINION pieces written by those with direct connections to either of the two sides.

 

Aren't you one of those that keep claiming that you don't hate Jews - that your problem is with Israel? Well Jews that are not Israeli have no "direct connection" with either side, so quit try to claim a bias that often does not exist,  just because it suits your agenda.
Of course, I would guess, that you would more than pleased to use any Jew or any Israeli that agreed with your views as a source - and I mean ANY - but I'm too lazy to go back and search all your posts to prove it.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[kblaze]

 

Aren't you one of those that keep claiming that you don't hate Jews - that your problem is with Israel? Well Jews that are not Israeli have no "direct connection" with either side, so quit try to claim a bias that often does not exist,  just because it suits your agenda.
Of course, I would guess, that you would more than pleased to use any Jew or any Israeli that agreed with your views as a source - and I mean ANY - but I'm too lazy to go back and search all your posts to prove it.

 

 

yes, it is much easier to just say things 

 

anyways...debate 101; use the most independent, unbiased source possible. hardly mind-bending.

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but I have been reading your posts. You are not someone that I would take debating lessons from.

[Scott]

Posts have been deleted.  

[Pralaad]

 

 

Why not just answer the question? You said there might be thousands of Israeli dead right now without "Protective" Edge. How?

 
Is that a tricky question? or you really can not see how?
 
Killed by rockets

 

 

That's strange because the terrorists have already launched well over a thousand rockets and only one civilian was killed by them. He was near a border crossing. Seems a bit far-fetched to say thousands would be killed by rockets eh?

 

 

Which part do you find strange? The fact that IAF has destroyed half if not more rocket launchers?

 

I could go as far as say millions, when Hamas was targeting nuclear reactor for 2 straight days.

 

How many would you estimate die if nuclear reactor was hit?

[Johpa]

25 Israeli soldiers now dead who might be alive today had not Netanyahu started this reckless round of violence.

 

Just a popularity stunt to win the next election. The man's a war criminal.

 

I agree that the current ground invasion is reckless and ill-advised given the global failure of ground forces to be effective in achieving both tactical and strategic goals when involved in urban asymetric warfare. This is especially exasperating given the Israeli failures in Lebanon dating back 30 years, not to mention Israel's ally faulures in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade when faced with a similar aysmetric conundrum.  But to reduce Netanyahu's decisions to merely an election stunt is a rather shallow concept and to acuse Netanyahu of being a war criminal is simply ignorant.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Johpa

[Asiantravel]

 

25 Israeli soldiers now dead who might be alive today had not Netanyahu started this reckless round of violence.

 

Just a popularity stunt to win the next election. The man's a war criminal.

 

I agree that the current ground invasion is reckless and ill-advised given the global failure of ground forces to be effective in achieving both tactical and strategic goals when involved in urban asymetric warfare. This is especially exasperating given the Israeli failures in Lebanon dating back 30 years, not to mention Israel's ally faulures in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade when faced with a similar aysmetric conundrum.  But to reduce Netanyahu's decisions to merely an election stunt is a rather shallow concept and to acuse Netanyahu of being a war criminal is simply ignorant.

 

 

 

Netanyahu a War Criminal says Nobel Peace Laureate

 

In a speech delivered in Belfast on 24 October 2012, Mairead Maguire declared that Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Premier, is a war criminal.

 

 

 

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/102818

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Ulysses G.]

If I call Mairead Maguire a war criminal, does that make her one? Just another opinion by a Hamas supporter.. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Pralaad]

If I call Mairead Maguire a war criminal, does that make her one? Just another opinion by a Hamas supporter.. 

Who is Mairead Maguire?? 

[joepublic]

Aren't you one of those that keep claiming that you don't hate Jews - that your problem is with Israel? Well Jews that are not Israeli have no "direct connection" with either side, so quit try to claim a bias that often does not exist,  just because it suits your agenda.
Of course, I would guess, that you would more than pleased to use any Jew or any Israeli that agreed with your views as a source - and I mean ANY - but I'm too lazy to go back and search all your posts to prove it.

 

And how exactly is your reply relevant to the core point of the use of opinion pieces in debate? Time and again, we see you avoid the issue by combining a sequence of words that says nothing meaningful about the issue under debate. Now, once again, would you like to answer the point about the use of opinion prices,  or will you resort to calling me an anti Semite?

[mercman24]

just an obvservation, tragic case of nearly 300 killed by munitions supplied by Russia to the Ukkraine,, the british press has gone to town on it, but no mention, NOT EVEN A PEEP, of over 500 killed by munitions supplied by the Americans to Israel, talk about double standards

[Ulysses G.]

Time and again, we see you avoid the issue by combining a sequence of words that says nothing meaningful about the issue under debate.

Oh really? Maybe you better go back and look at your own pointless posts before trying to pin that on anyone else and, by the way, I've already answered the question, so you can look for that too. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I suppose that it is worth mentioning that some of the children in Gaza are indeed active terrorists. Not to suggest that it isn't horribly tragic that so many children in Gaza have been killed but as some context to the force that Israel is dealing with. 

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-gaza-terrorist-treated-in-israeli-hospital/#ixzz38D3IulpO

 

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

 

 

[mercman24]

didnt know you could be a terrorist in your own land, ??

[Johpa]

just an obvservation, tragic case of nearly 300 killed by munitions supplied by Russia to the Ukkraine,, the british press has gone to town on it, but no mention, NOT EVEN A PEEP, of over 500 killed by munitions supplied by the Americans to Israel, talk about double standards

 

There are double standards everywhere.  After nearly 50 years there is scarely a peep from anywhere regarding the Chinese occupation of Tibet. There was no peep from the western pro-Palestinian groups when Hamas summarily executed 600 pro-PA political opponents in Gaza.  There is today no peep when Hamas urges civilians to be human shields.  There is little peep from the pro-Israeli side when Israel levels a criminal Palestinian suspect's family house but does not level the house of a criminal Israeli suspect.  So everywhere I look I see double standards.

[dr_lucas]

The discussion here seem to over-complicate the situation.

If I was living in Israel and a group of terrorist was continuously firing missiles to my city endangering my house, property, life and the lives of my people, I'd first do everything I can to protect myself (like using "iron dome" anti-rocket defense system, with the 90% accuracy/success rate. Which, by the way, explains the minimal damages in Israel during this round of violence) and hunt that terror group down and annihilate it, doesn't matter if it's Muslim, Christian, Jewish or any other religion.

If that group of terrorists was firing those missiles from hospitals, houses, schools and any other civilian building, while using innocent civilians as human-shields to protect themselves and their rocket launchers from my weapons, I'd do everything I can to warn the innocent civilians to leave/evacuate the area first (as Israel does with 100,000 leaflets it throws from planes to areas before the army gets there, calls hundreds of thousands of homes and mobiles and send SMSs, and of course the using the final "knock on the roof" warning routine), and surgically eliminate the terrorist and their weapons.

If there are still civilians who refuse to leave, or stay on purpose because they want to sacrifice their lives for the terrorists they are supporting, then by all means - they will die with them, no question asked. Hamas tells Gaza residents to ignore IDF warnings: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4541484,00.html

I will also do everything humanitarian I can possibly do to help innocent people who get caught in the cross fire, as Israel does (among many other things, Israel has established a large field clinic with hundreds of Israeli doctors to help Gaza citizens in need of any medical assistance. This, my friends, you won't see in the super-biased BBC (with the rest of the biased British media), Al-Jazira and other similar media channels): https://scontent-b-sin.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/p526x296/10557159_10152264857022076_8524950915565861878_n.jpg

Israel is around 2 weeks into this war on terrorism, but only a few hundreds Palestinian casualties. If there was a massacre, as some anti-Israel and pro-Palestinians keep saying, the Israeli army with all its mighty power could and would have killed hundreds of people per second, not per 2 weeks.

Obviously Israel is doing it's very best to surgically eliminate the weapons, , terrorist & terror tunnels (a city of many tunnels which the Palestinians dug from their territory into Israel to execute terror attacks and into Egypt to smuggle weapons they receive from Iran & Syria among other friends).

Of course there are always going to be innocent people who get caught in the cross-fire in wars, but I know for a fact that nobody in Israel or the Israeli-army is deliberately targeting civilians and Israel does do everything it can to warn & protect innocent lives.

 

Fact is Israel is using rockets (iron dome) to protect Israeli human life. Hamas is using (innocent) human life to protect its' rockets.

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Morch]

 

Any chance you could produce land ownership papers? because for land to be stolen it needs to be owned

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

 

A Palestinian Christian family that preaches non-violence from a farm in the West Bank is battling to hold on to land it has owned for 98 years. Now surrounded by Israeli settlements, the family is a living example of the idea of peaceful resistance.

 

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." 

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

 

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

 

Can you also please tell me the currency of Palestine,

...one day it will be shekels. When israel absorbs the people it is occupying

 

 

So, a link (used on earlier topics) details the well known story of a Christian family in the West Bank.

 

And a Ben Gurion quote (discussed in length on previous topics as well), from the hoard of quotes left by him - and many of them quite contradictory, as they reflect his changing positions and internal conflicts.

 

And a Dayan quote, which while true enough - does not necessarily say much about land ownership (not all Arab villagers were land owners, and not all Arab names denote villages. That's without factoring lands sold to Jews).

 

And the usual drivel about Israel "absorbing" (or annexing) the Gaza Strip and the West Bank - that there is no one of any consequence in Israeli politics that wishes to annexe millions of Palestinians as Israeli citizens should probably be a clue.

[Morch]

 

Abbas could be working on this now. Offer passive resistance to Israeli occupation.

 

1.      It won’t give Israel an excuse to deport them from their homes

2.      Both sides get used to peaceful co-existence, and its benefits

3.      It may make Israel come to its senses about a realistic viable 2 state solution with permanent recognized secure borders, rather than if they delay much longer having to absorb the Palestinians into a one state solution.

 

 

Abbas could.

Is he actually doing anything of the sort?