More than 50 Israeli reservists refuse to fight

[Jingthing]

How can you have a country established on the basis of some alleged sightings of god or what not years ago, most of the crap can be discounted straight away the flood the ark the rest goes on, Perhaps there should be a Star Trek country or a Palestinian country wow there's a thought a Palestinian state Wow sounds like a runner.

Your concept of how Israel came to be is really warped.

But beyond that, nations borders come about in a variety of strange ways, quite often not particularly rational.

Look at Iraq for example.

Back to Israel, the Jews are a tiny minority in the world. The Jews have this one state and the Jews intend to keep it. What's the problem? Why so much resistance to this tiny population having this tiny one state?
It's not like Islam which does massive conversions and has over 50 states.

Jews are always going to a be a tiny global minority, if they continue to exist at all.

One state. It's really not overdoing it. 

[Jay Sata]

How can you have a country established on the basis of some alleged sightings of god or what not years ago, most of the crap can be discounted straight away the flood the ark the rest goes on, Perhaps there should be a Star Trek country or a Palestinian country wow there's a thought a Palestinian state Wow sounds like a runner.

Religion is the root of all evil and the source of most of the conflict on this planet.

 

I am an atheist so do not believe in any god. When I look at what Israel inflicts on Gaza I am glad I do not subscribe to any sort of belief based on some dubious text from centuries ago.

[hawker9000]

 

How can you have a country established on the basis of some alleged sightings of god or what not years ago, most of the crap can be discounted straight away the flood the ark the rest goes on, Perhaps there should be a Star Trek country or a Palestinian country wow there's a thought a Palestinian state Wow sounds like a runner.

Religion is the root of all evil and the source of most of the conflict on this planet.

 

I am an atheist so do not believe in any god. When I look at what Israel inflicts on Gaza I am glad I do not subscribe to any sort of belief based on some dubious text from centuries ago.

 

 

<sigh>  Here we go again...   I just knew the discussion would devolve into this.  It always does.  'Sort of like smokers and the automobile emissions thing.

[Jay Sata]

How can you have a country established on the basis of some alleged sightings of god or what not years ago, most of the crap can be discounted straight away the flood the ark the rest goes on, Perhaps there should be a Star Trek country or a Palestinian country wow there's a thought a Palestinian state Wow sounds like a runner.

Spot on with your comment.

 

All the religions in the world are based on some weird dubious books written centuries ago.

 

However they are the basis for warfare using high tech weapons and very low intellect..

[simple1]

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

[Scott]

Quite a number of posts have been deleted.   This topic is about 50 Israeli reservists who have refused to serve.   Continued discussion will be narrowly limited to that subject.   I think Simple 1's question needs an answer.

 

Edit:   And another post has been deleted, again the topic is about reservists refusing to serve in the military?   What happens to them?

 

Edit 2:   And another post deleted.

 

Edit 3:   And another post deleted.

[joecoolfrog]

In 2002 The Israeli High Court of Justice ruled that it was legal to refuse to serve in the IDS on the grounds of Pacifism . However selective refusal , ie to not wish to serve in certain areas or do certain tasks was ruled illegal.
In 2004 5 activists were jailed for a year because they did not wish to serve in occupied territory. Although the court accepted that each individual was a pacifist , because they acted together they were ruled to be selectively refusing and were convicted accordingly.

[Credo]

If a person is a reservist, then I would guess that they are not a pacifist.   

[dexterm]

Quite a number of posts have been deleted.   This topic is about 50 Israeli reservists who have refused to serve.   Continued discussion will be narrowly limited to that subject.   I think Simple 1's question needs an answer.

 

Edit:   And another post has been deleted, again the topic is about reservists refusing to serve in the military?   What happens to them?

 

Edit 2:   And another post deleted.

 

Edit 3:   And another post deleted.

 

With great respect, there seems to be a demand for a broader new topic discussing background issues to the conflict, which would avoid deletions on narrow topics.

 

With the provisos that there were no personal  flaming or racial/religious vilification plus standard tvf  conditions, it would increase traffic to the site and satisfy posters’ needs to air their views.

 

Win, win. Mods and posters.

[joecoolfrog]

The thing is one does not opt to be a reservist , it is an automatic extension of National Service until the age of 45. It is quite possible that one might become a pacifist as a consequence of earlier experience.

[dexterm]

Israel is a democracy.

Political dissent is allowed.

 

 

It's not quite so easy for Palestinian to say NO to Hamas:

 

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2014/07/24/cnn-tonight-two-men-with-different-views-on-hamas.cnn&video_referrer=

 

Starting a bit after minute 3.

 

If Israel is a democracy why aren't Israeli Arabs allowed to serve in the army and marry who they like?

 

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.590228

[Scott]

 

Quite a number of posts have been deleted.   This topic is about 50 Israeli reservists who have refused to serve.   Continued discussion will be narrowly limited to that subject.   I think Simple 1's question needs an answer.

 

Edit:   And another post has been deleted, again the topic is about reservists refusing to serve in the military?   What happens to them?

 

Edit 2:   And another post deleted.

 

Edit 3:   And another post deleted.

 

With great respect, there seems to be a demand for a broader new topic discussing background issues to the conflict, which would avoid deletions on narrow topics.

 

With the provisos that there were no personal  flaming or racial/religious vilification plus standard tvf  conditions, it would increase traffic to the site and satisfy posters’ needs to air their views.

 

Win, win. Mods and posters.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but this is probably not the best time to broaden the scope of such discussions.  If you wish to have a broader discussion.  

 

Your suggestion will be passed on to those higher up in the food chain than me.  

[dexterm]

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

I think many are jailed, but IMO they deserve medals. And one day when hostilities end, a peace agreement signed and a truth and reconciliation tribunal established, they will receive due recognition.

[dexterm]

 

 

Quite a number of posts have been deleted.   This topic is about 50 Israeli reservists who have refused to serve.   Continued discussion will be narrowly limited to that subject.   I think Simple 1's question needs an answer.

 

Edit:   And another post has been deleted, again the topic is about reservists refusing to serve in the military?   What happens to them?

 

Edit 2:   And another post deleted.

 

Edit 3:   And another post deleted.

 

With great respect, there seems to be a demand for a broader new topic discussing background issues to the conflict, which would avoid deletions on narrow topics.

 

With the provisos that there were no personal  flaming or racial/religious vilification plus standard tvf  conditions, it would increase traffic to the site and satisfy posters’ needs to air their views.

 

Win, win. Mods and posters.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but this is probably not the best time to broaden the scope of such discussions.  If you wish to have a broader discussion.  

 

Your suggestion will be passed on to those higher up in the food chain than me.  

 

 

Thank you for considering the idea.

[Ulysses G.]

Concerning the reservists, their problem does not seem to be this operation in particular, but a bunch of other complaints. They are against conscription, they are against the army in general and they feel they don't have "equal rights". Most are women, who would not have fought in combat anyway. 

I'm not sure if this qualifies as "pacifism", or not, but my guess would be no. 

 

Israeli Arabs ARE allowed to serve in the army. However, they are not required to, which sounds like a pretty good deal to me. 

 

finally In my time in Israel I never once met ordinary jew tell me ' it was all the arabs fault ' .

 

Ahh.. there it is, the Straw Man. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that "it was all the arabs fault " except for you. Both sides have made plenty of mistakes over the years. What I have said, is that the Arabs resorted to violence long before the Jews responded in kind. Someone started the warfare and that was not the Jews. Were the Jews responsible for all those early attacks on them, by simply being there?

 

Edited July 25, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[CBR250]

 

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

I think many are jailed, but IMO they deserve medals. And one day when hostilities end, a peace agreement signed and a truth and reconciliation tribunal established, they will receive due recognition.

 

 

Yes. You are right. Imprisonment is the immediate fate of those who choose not to murder women and children in the name of the IDF. And as the children of a particularly vengeful supernatural being, the Israeli people also find ways to ostracize and harass people of conscience - over and above any formal punishments.

 

It is this admirable minority of Israelis that provide a glimmer of hope that this cycle of war can one day end.

[Ulysses G.]

Yes. You are right. Imprisonment is the immediate fate of those who choose not to murder women and children in the name of the IDF.

Actually, according to this article, even being arrested for refusing to fight is not very common.

According to Livneh, the IDF generally elects not to deal with insubordinate soldiers in order to strengthen its claim that the phenomenon is negligible. The group "Courage to Refuse" was also surprised by Livneh's arrest, saying that such measures are rare.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3658996,00.html

[Credo]

This is slightly off-topic, but how does Hamas recruit fighters?   Do they have a method of conscription?   What happens if you refuse to join them?

[CBR250]

Why don't you find out? Join up.

[joecoolfrog]

I am not surprised that a certain member cherry picks and edits quotes , indeed makes additions as it suits him , seems par for the course for him.
What does surprise me is that forum rules allow it !

[Tywais]

I am not surprised that a certain member cherry picks and edits quotes , indeed makes additions as it suits him , seems par for the course for him.
What does surprise me is that forum rules allow it !

 

It is not allowed to modify a quote that will change the meaning.  If you see such you can hit the report button.  These specific topics are very difficult for mods to keep up with so member help by reporting will help us.  Thanks.

 

From Forum Netiquette  which is a subset to the rules - 2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned.

[uptheos]

This is slightly off-topic, but how does Hamas recruit fighters?   Do they have a method of conscription?   What happens if you refuse to join them?

 

They make you an offer you can't refuse!

[ggold]

 

 

as for the original post, great news perhaps slowly but surely an anti.war and anti miltary group will gain strength and will eventually hold.enuf power to change things in Isreal.

 

 

 

another insightful comment NOT.  

 

what you fail to understand is that while there are some who refuse to serve in Gaza or the west Bank. These same people would pick  up arms if Israel was seriously threatened by the Arabs. 

 

In Israel everyone is a soldier.

 

 

so what are you saying? maybe these 50 are propaganda tools used by mosad to enhance the image that isrealy people actually have a choice? or are you just failing to acknowledge  that any piece of anti war stance comng from isreal is  a plus, either way perhaps your view says as much about you as it says about the situation .

 

 

well actually it was Hamas who had a word with them, They agreed not to fight!.   surely you can do better than suggest it was mossad!!!!!!!!
 

[ggold]

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

As they are reservists, they probably won't have any problems. They may be reassigned to other duties. Very doubtful they would end up in Prison. 
 

[Maggusoil]

Israeli Jews in the world's only Jewish nation state would be assimilating into what exactly? I really don't get that comment. Unless you're talking about hummus. 

 

There was a sign at a pro-Israel rally in London:

More Hummus!
Less Hamas!

 

 

 

It seems the vegetarian answer to this political issue is very popular now.

Considering the title news of the thread, these young people, expected to train to fight, have downed their weapons, figuratively speaking and are thereby hoping for a political/ human solution, rather than a violent, military one.

 

Whatever happened before is just that. This is the result. It speaks the words we cannot agree to.

[Ulysses G.]

Actually most of them are women who don't fight anyway and they are reservists who have already been trained to do whatever it is that they were trained to do, but don't let the facts bother you. More than one person on this thread is simply making stories up to suit their agenda. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[uptheos]

Actually most of them are women who don't fight anyway and they are reservists who have already been trained to do whatever it is that they were trained to do, but don't let the facts bother you. More than one person on this thread is simply making stories up to suit their agenda. 

 

Indeed they are 

 

 

 

[uptheos]

 

Actually most of them are women who don't fight anyway and they are reservists who have already been trained to do whatever it is that they were trained to do, but don't let the facts bother you. More than one person on this thread is simply making stories up to suit their agenda. 

 

Indeed they are 

 

 

 

 

They also know how to relax 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

 

[PJcm]

This is B/S these women will never be prosecuted and if they do they will be given a slap on the wrist, pussy pass