Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Dork]

Dork, this is interesting. Could you please cite the documents you presented to the amphur including the ones signed by the IM. Others may be interested in trying this. Also, please excuse my ignorance but what is BORA? I had also somewhat assumed that the right to move outside one's district is automatically granted if you have PR but you might need to show your alien book etc to prove this, in the unlikely event that a farang would be challenged. It does raise the issue of what is the point of an alien book.

I might give this a try out of curiosity. Driving licence is accepted for most purposed but not by banks when you want to withdraw cash.

BORA is the Bureau of Registration Administration, the division of DOPA (Department of Provincial Administration) that, as far as I know, sets the procedures that district offices are "supposed" to follow when issuing Identity cards, Tabien Baan etc. Their call centre number is 1548 and the contact details for the specific office handling these ID cards can be found here;

http://www.bora.dopa.go.th/index.php/th/contact-str

The directive (or perhaps amendment?) from the then Interior Minister Kowit is attached here;

IM.pdf

The DOPA procedural manual (refer to page 194 in Thai numerals which is PDF page 198) is here:

Manual.pdf

Some links to other relevant info that I have posted previously, as follows;

http://www.dopabook.com:8085/ebook/view.jsp?Open_Page=yes&id_PageBook=29896&booktype=2

Refer to page 102-103 which I think is the framework for amendments in 2008.

http://www.dopabook.com:8085/ebook/view.jsp?Open_Page=yes&id_PageBook=28209&booktype=2

The details are in pages 81-89 (in Thai numerals) or PDF page numbers 95-103. I think this dates from 2011.

I hope the above is all correct. The original research was done by my wife because I can't read Thai so perhaps when you've had a chance to look at it you can point out any errors or omissions.

Regarding the wording on the back of the card about the holder not leaving their local area without permission, I referred to that as a red herring because in the case of a Permanent Resident, it isn't supposed to be there. The DOPA template for the card shows a different format than the card that I actually received. That is simply because, though they have had several years to prepare, they haven't got around to printing the blank cards for PR's. The person at BORA that co-ordinated with my local office said that once the correct blank cards are printed I could go and have mine replaced. Perhaps by now they have already printed the new ones - I doubt it though. If a few more PR's start requesting the card that hopefully will put pressure on them to do what they were supposed to do a few years ago.

Cheers,

[skippybangkok]

Thanks Dork.

I can see a benefit already, apply for anything using a red book, and you get a real befuddled look. " where is visa and work permit " is the typical answer. The concept of being able to live here and not work, and not have a visa ( hope we dont have to re-explain this one ) miffs all Thai's except for govt officials

The card would be more familiar, will check it out one day.

(p.s. thx for advice on 5 year renewal, turns out i confused myself and am a few months short of 5 years, not over )

[Dork]

Thanks Dork.

I can see a benefit already, apply for anything using a red book, and you get a real befuddled look. " where is visa and work permit " is the typical answer. The concept of being able to live here and not work, and not have a visa ( hope we dont have to re-explain this one ) miffs all Thai's except for govt officials

The card would be more familiar, will check it out one day.

(p.s. thx for advice on 5 year renewal, turns out i confused myself and am a few months short of 5 years, not over )

I haven't tried doing anything official with the red book but I showed it to a friend who was amazed. He said that his mother had one until she died and he was sure you had to be born in China for it to be issued.

[zanaka]

I am considering of applying for PR this coming December. I would appreciate if anybody could recommend a law firm or two with a good track record (ie. approvals) in assisting the application process and getting all the documents ready.

[zanaka]

I currently have a one year extension due to my work together with WP. Would this visa be cancelled if I apply for PR? If so what would happen to the visa of my dependents (ie. parent)? Would it also be cancelled and granted a 6 months visa together even though they may not be aaplying for PR together. Thanks in advance.....

[Dork]

I currently have a one year extension due to my work together with WP. Would this visa be cancelled if I apply for PR? If so what would happen to the visa of my dependents (ie. parent)? Would it also be cancelled and granted a 6 months visa together even though they may not be aaplying for PR together. Thanks in advance.....

You can choose to remain on WP based extensions if you prefer. Many people do that.

[skyaslimit]

I currently have a one year extension due to my work together with WP. Would this visa be cancelled if I apply for PR? If so what would happen to the visa of my dependents (ie. parent)? Would it also be cancelled and granted a 6 months visa together even though they may not be aaplying for PR together. Thanks in advance.....

You can apply for PR , while keep extending you "non-B" visa on yearly basis, this does not effect your PR process.

[GarryP]

.......

One thing I don't know is what type of ID number, if any, do they put on yellow TR 13 tabien baans for non-PRs. Anyone know this?

In my case, 13 digits starting with a 6.

[Mario2008]

Per above, non PR holder gets a number starting with a 6.

[Helvetica]

As PR holders, are will still entitled to get VAT refund when we take something out of the country, or is this privilege reserved to tourists only?

[lopburi3]

A bit off-topic and it is called for tourists but unless stationed here on a diplomatic passport or crew of vessel regulations seem to allow if you have filled out the application when purchase made.

http://www.rd.go.th/vrt/who.html#link02

[Arkady]

A bit off-topic and it is called for tourists but unless stationed here on a diplomatic passport or crew of vessel regulations seem to allow if you have filled out the application when purchase made.

http://www.rd.go.th/vrt/who.html#link02

Even though it is not specifically mentioned in this link, I have always assumed that customs would refuse to approve refunds for anyone on anything other than a tourist or transit visa. It would be a huge loophole, if this allowed for PRs and other non-tourists but, if it is, please let me know!

[Arkady]

Per above, non PR holder gets a number starting with a 6.

I think I read something about these 13 digit ID numbers being assigned to all foreigners who apply for a tax ID now, even if they don't apply for a tabien baan, whereas the RD used to have its own series of tax ID numbers for foreigners which you ditched when you got PR in favour of your new 13 digit ID number.

[thaiowl]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

Once PR has been granted you need to have your name listed in a blue Tabien Baan (Thor Ror 14) at which stage you will be issued with a national ID number starting with 8.

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

I have used my pink ID card a few times and the reaction is normally one of interest because they have never seen one.

[brianinbangkok]

My yearly trip to Immigration is coming up so I downloaded the TM13 and TM22 to prepare for the visit.

Does anybody know what ID card number they request as the last question (backside) of TM 22.

Do they mean the number in the red book or my ID number like on my driving license ?

Because of course I do not have a Thai ID card....

Its says " "This application is written by ..... holding I.D. Card No. issued at dated expired on.

Other question I have is what is the actual number of the red book the number on the back of the cover or on the first page in the book above the photo ?

[brianinbangkok]

Oops forgot to write I have a PR and need to get a reentry and endorsement.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Mario2008]

The number in the red-book.

Don't know which one it is, but as a PR holder your Thai ID-number will start with an 8 and should also be mentioned in the household book at your name.

In all likelihood is the number on the cover the number of the book and the number at your picture your Thai ID-number. That is how it usually works with these documents.

[brianinbangkok]

Well you get red book before you are put on the tabien ban.

So that could be the 13 digit number they want but its not in the red book as far as I know.

Guess I will have to ask at immigration to be sure.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[ubonjoe]

The Thai ID number would of been done when the entry in the blue house book was done and is shown there.

Edited May 27, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Arkady]

Well you get red book before you are put on the tabien ban.

So that could be the 13 digit number they want but its not in the red book as far as I know.

Guess I will have to ask at immigration to be sure.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

From memory you have to fill out details of your Alien Book including its serial number and separately details of your Residence Book including its serial number. I don't think they ask you for your ID number and I think they only want to see your tabien baan when you need to apply for a new Residence Book (to verify your address), having filled up the old one (for some reason the new one will be white instead of blue and will be called a Duplicate of Certificate of Residence which causes problems with people trying to insist on seeing the original!).

I think the bit at the end is to be filled in by someone who filled out the form for you, assuming you are a Chinese immigrant who can't write Thai or English, as most of the PRs were at one time and some elderly ones still are.

Bear in mind that the Alien Book and Residence Book pre-date ID cards and Immigration and the police stations were the only agencies that registered and regulated foreigners before district offices got involved and ID cards came along. So they hang on to these pointless museum piece documents fiercely. Of course district offices could do the whole thing, as they do for millions of alien labourers.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Arkady

[jamesthailand]

I'm curious: when a PR gets Thai citizenship, do they keep the same ID number (starting with an 8) or do they get a new one?

[Arkady]

I'm curious: when a PR gets Thai citizenship, do they keep the same ID number (starting with an 8) or do they get a new one?

You will keep the 8- prefix, so they know you are a naturalised Thai, in case they couldn't guess.

[Arkady]

Dork, this is interesting. Could you please cite the documents you presented to the amphur including the ones signed by the IM. Others may be interested in trying this. Also, please excuse my ignorance but what is BORA? I had also somewhat assumed that the right to move outside one's district is automatically granted if you have PR but you might need to show your alien book etc to prove this, in the unlikely event that a farang would be challenged. It does raise the issue of what is the point of an alien book.

I might give this a try out of curiosity. Driving licence is accepted for most purposed but not by banks when you want to withdraw cash.

BORA is the Bureau of Registration Administration, the division of DOPA (Department of Provincial Administration) that, as far as I know, sets the procedures that district offices are "supposed" to follow when issuing Identity cards, Tabien Baan etc. Their call centre number is 1548 and the contact details for the specific office handling these ID cards can be found here;

http://www.bora.dopa.go.th/index.php/th/contact-str

The directive (or perhaps amendment?) from the then Interior Minister Kowit is attached here;

IM.pdf

The DOPA procedural manual (refer to page 194 in Thai numerals which is PDF page 198) is here:

Manual.pdf

Some links to other relevant info that I have posted previously, as follows;

http://www.dopabook.com:8085/ebook/view.jsp?Open_Page=yes&id_PageBook=29896&booktype=2

Refer to page 102-103 which I think is the framework for amendments in 2008.

http://www.dopabook.com:8085/ebook/view.jsp?Open_Page=yes&id_PageBook=28209&booktype=2

The details are in pages 81-89 (in Thai numerals) or PDF page numbers 95-103. I think this dates from 2011.

I hope the above is all correct. The original research was done by my wife because I can't read Thai so perhaps when you've had a chance to look at it you can point out any errors or omissions.

Regarding the wording on the back of the card about the holder not leaving their local area without permission, I referred to that as a red herring because in the case of a Permanent Resident, it isn't supposed to be there. The DOPA template for the card shows a different format than the card that I actually received. That is simply because, though they have had several years to prepare, they haven't got around to printing the blank cards for PR's. The person at BORA that co-ordinated with my local office said that once the correct blank cards are printed I could go and have mine replaced. Perhaps by now they have already printed the new ones - I doubt it though. If a few more PR's start requesting the card that hopefully will put pressure on them to do what they were supposed to do a few years ago.

Cheers,

Thanks for the links Dork.

[Arkady]

Just started looking at the links provided by Dork and the first document I looked at was Ministerial Regulations for Civil Registrations for People without Thai Nationality and Schedule of Fees 2008. Clause 7 rather jumped out at me. I translate:

"Clause 7. Those who do not have Thai nationality according to Clause 2 (1) [i.e permanent residents and their children born in Thailand without Thai nationality] or (2) [i.e. those who have special leave to remain from the minister {e.g. hilltribes, refugees} and their children without Thai nationality], whose names and personal details are recorded in a house registration book and who are are at least 5 years old but not more than 70 years old must have an identity card for which application should be made to the district registrar within 15 days of:

1. the date of their fifth birthday.

2. the date on which the registrar adds their name to a house registration book.

3. the date on which their previous identity card expired.

4. the date on which the previous identity card was lost, destroyed or damaged.

5. the date on which their name, surname or date of birth have been changed in their house registration book."

So there you have it folks. It seems that not only is it possible for PRs to get an ID card, it has actually been compulsory since 2008. The fee is 60 baht. I wonder how many district office registrars have also read this regulation.

I have attached a searchable version of it from the Royal Gazette.

Ministerial Regulations Regarding Civil Registration of Aliens and Schedule of Fees 2008 TH.pdf

Edited May 27, 2013 by Arkady

[brianinbangkok]

Thanks Arkade,

I will report back after I have been to Immigration, still so that if you hand in the paperwork before lunch you can pick it up the same day ?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Arkady]

Thanks Arkade,

I will report back after I have been to Immigration, still so that if you hand in the paperwork before lunch you can pick it up the same day ?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

Last year it was ready at 3.00pm same day, if you applied before 12 noon. If you applied after lunch it was ready the next morning after 10.00 am. So you choose between a boring wait in the basement or two trips out to CW. Alternatively you can send a flunky to pick it up. Check in advance if they need anything more than the receipt, if someone else collects. Requirements on this have varied over the years.

[brianinbangkok]

Thanks again Arkady.

So besides TM13, TM22. Certificate of residency, red book, passport, photo's , 5700 bath and myself nothing else is needed ?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Arkady]

Thanks again Arkady.

So besides TM13, TM22. Certificate of residency, red book, passport, photo's , 5700 bath and myself nothing else is needed ?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

Sounds right. I always take everything including tabien baan and work permit, just in case they ask for something more.

[skippybangkok]

Per above, non PR holder gets a number starting with a 6.

I got an 8

Does that make be 30% better or 30% worse ?

[jayboy]

Thanks again Arkady.

So besides TM13, TM22. Certificate of residency, red book, passport, photo's , 5700 bath and myself nothing else is needed ?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

Sounds right. I always take everything including tabien baan and work permit, just in case they ask for something more.

Probably sensible to take everything but I happened to talk to my lawyer's assistant yesterday who has been processing PR renewals for many years.She said in her experience tabien baan and work permit had never been asked for.