Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[jayboy]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

I am surprised you repeat the canard that it is "the same nonsense" which prompts officials to say the pink ID card is meant only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries.This is no more than the truth and really holders of PR agitating about this are almost certainly wasting their time, though I appreciate for some this is not a particularly valuable commodity.

For all I know a few foreigners with PR may be issued with ID cards (I recall without checking that some members have achieved this).But the obstacle to widespread use is not software bugs but the inconvenient fact that the issue to all PRs is not what was intended.

If PRs were issued with cards along the lines suggested by Arkady that would obviously be excellent.Fingers crossed but as so often in Thailand it's worth understanding the intention of a measure not just the sometimes confusing surface content.

[thedemon]

Hi

Would like to know if any PR holders have applied for a new passport outside of TH? Any problems returning to TH, as I’ve noticed the Immigrant Visa says “utilized before (date) if passport remains valid”.

Obviously the old passport would be cancelled, thus no longer valid. FYI - My country does give back the old passport.

Thanks

That will be no problem as long as you have the cancelled passport containing the endorsement/re-entry with you. In fact Immigration don't transfer the stamp anyway, as they do with non-immigrant visas. You just continue using both passports for the duration of the endorsement.

So at the immigration counter you hand over 3 documents. I've been doing that for most of this year.

[onthemoon]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

I am surprised you repeat the canard that it is "the same nonsense" which prompts officials to say the pink ID card is meant only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries.This is no more than the truth and really holders of PR agitating about this are almost certainly wasting their time, though I appreciate for some this is not a particularly valuable commodity.

For all I know a few foreigners with PR may be issued with ID cards (I recall without checking that some members have achieved this).But the obstacle to widespread use is not software bugs but the inconvenient fact that the issue to all PRs is not what was intended.

If PRs were issued with cards along the lines suggested by Arkady that would obviously be excellent.Fingers crossed but as so often in Thailand it's worth understanding the intention of a measure not just the sometimes confusing surface content.

In your first paragraph you say that I said that the pink ID is only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries. I said the exact opposite, namely that PR holders of any nationality can apply for the pink ID.

In your second paragraph you are plainly wrong. Please read the thread about the pink ID I linked in the post you copied, and please don't forget to download and read the manual for the officers that explains the process how to issue the pink ID for PR holders of any nationality. And the reason is the software bug, I have seen it by myself, and it has been confirmed by CW.

Please post only if you know something, not if you want to repeat rumours you may have heard somewhere.

[jayboy]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

I am surprised you repeat the canard that it is "the same nonsense" which prompts officials to say the pink ID card is meant only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries.This is no more than the truth and really holders of PR agitating about this are almost certainly wasting their time, though I appreciate for some this is not a particularly valuable commodity.

For all I know a few foreigners with PR may be issued with ID cards (I recall without checking that some members have achieved this).But the obstacle to widespread use is not software bugs but the inconvenient fact that the issue to all PRs is not what was intended.

If PRs were issued with cards along the lines suggested by Arkady that would obviously be excellent.Fingers crossed but as so often in Thailand it's worth understanding the intention of a measure not just the sometimes confusing surface content.

In your first paragraph you say that I said that the pink ID is only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries. I said the exact opposite, namely that PR holders of any nationality can apply for the pink ID.

In your second paragraph you are plainly wrong. Please read the thread about the pink ID I linked in the post you copied, and please don't forget to download and read the manual for the officers that explains the process how to issue the pink ID for PR holders of any nationality. And the reason is the software bug, I have seen it by myself, and it has been confirmed by CW.

Please post only if you know something, not if you want to repeat rumours you may have heard somewhere.

I spoke to my lawyer some time ago about this.I am not going to name him or his firm ( because I want to spare him endless messages from old geezers with too much time on their hands) but he deals with immigration matters for many of the leading multinationals here, and has done for many years.

He confirms my statement that these cards are not intended for PRs.

I dare say those with plenty of time on their hands will buzz endlessly on about this chimera.What is needed is a clear decision to offer all PRs an ID card.If this can be achieved under the existing mechanism so be it but it's more likely to be a new initiative - if it ever happens.

[onthemoon]

My friend went to Khet Prakhanong to enquire for me what documents are needed for the pink ID card. He was told the same nonsense that it is only for Myanmar, Cambodia and Lao citizens.

So I went there by myself, armed with a print out of the relevant pages of the government manual issued to the Khets how the procedure is for PR holders of any nationality. . I got the docs from this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/590057-thai-non-thai-id-card-for-permanent-residents Khet Prakhanong is now very familiar with the procedures. They have conferred with CW many times. However, the program is buggy, which is the only reason they cannot issue it.

I encourage every PR holder to visit that thread and apply for a pink ID with their Khet / Amphur, so that CW puts some pressure on the software vendor to fix the program.

That having been clarified, I don't care much about the colour of the card, but yes, another colour could make sense. Not that I am usually thought to be Cambodian, thought.

The labour law is a different can of worms. The PR (and the card) should initially allow for work which is allowed for foreigners, albeit without the requirement to apply for a work permit.

I am surprised you repeat the canard that it is "the same nonsense" which prompts officials to say the pink ID card is meant only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries.This is no more than the truth and really holders of PR agitating about this are almost certainly wasting their time, though I appreciate for some this is not a particularly valuable commodity.

For all I know a few foreigners with PR may be issued with ID cards (I recall without checking that some members have achieved this).But the obstacle to widespread use is not software bugs but the inconvenient fact that the issue to all PRs is not what was intended.

If PRs were issued with cards along the lines suggested by Arkady that would obviously be excellent.Fingers crossed but as so often in Thailand it's worth understanding the intention of a measure not just the sometimes confusing surface content.

In your first paragraph you say that I said that the pink ID is only for migrant workers from neighbouring countries. I said the exact opposite, namely that PR holders of any nationality can apply for the pink ID.

In your second paragraph you are plainly wrong. Please read the thread about the pink ID I linked in the post you copied, and please don't forget to download and read the manual for the officers that explains the process how to issue the pink ID for PR holders of any nationality. And the reason is the software bug, I have seen it by myself, and it has been confirmed by CW.

Please post only if you know something, not if you want to repeat rumours you may have heard somewhere.

I spoke to my lawyer some time ago about this.I am not going to name him or his firm ( because I want to spare him endless messages from old geezers with too much time on their hands) but he deals with immigration matters for many of the leading multinationals here, and has done for many years.

He confirms my statement that these cards are not intended for PRs.

I dare say those with plenty of time on their hands will buzz endlessly on about this chimera.What is needed is a clear decision to offer all PRs an ID card.If this can be achieved under the existing mechanism so be it but it's more likely to be a new initiative - if it ever happens.

I take offence at the term "old geezer". And I see that you did not even take the effort reading the relevant thread in which your lawyer is proven wrong by copy of an official government document. He probably got his info by calling to some government official who wasn't aware of it either.

If you are not interested in the pink ID, you can stop posting about it. If you are, please post in the relevant thread.

Edited October 13, 2014 by onthemoon

[sas_cars]

I think this thread is not about Pink ID. Can we get back to the original topic of the thread? Is there any news of anyone getting approved of a PR recently as it seems that the new IM has started clearing the backlog.

[eldepinamar]

A friend with good connections who applied in 2011 just got a call to say his PR application had been approved by the new minister, Anuphong, and would be passed back to CW soon. I think this may not be an isolated occurrence because there has just been an announcement from Anuphong about citizenship approvals. The announcement said that 369 foreign wives wives of Thai nationals and another 272 applicants for naturalisation had been approved for citizenship and their names would be forwarded to the cabinet secretariat for announcement in the Royal Gazette soon.

Another interesting point is that in the Thai wording it was mentioned that many applicants have waited 5-7 years, with the clear implication that this is too long, although he acknowledges the need for carefully vetting on grounds of national security. This point, of course, is equally applicable to applicants for PR. The fact that Anuphong is showing determination to reduce waiting time and eliminate opportunities for extortion is a good sign.

Arkady, I've read a report with the names of 369 foreign wives of Thai citizens and information that they don't need to pay anything (just check the name), but cannot find any reference with regards to 272 approved applications and long waiting time. Can you please specify where have you got it from? thanks

[Arkady]

A friend with good connections who applied in 2011 just got a call to say his PR application had been approved by the new minister, Anuphong, and would be passed back to CW soon. I think this may not be an isolated occurrence because there has just been an announcement from Anuphong about citizenship approvals. The announcement said that 369 foreign wives wives of Thai nationals and another 272 applicants for naturalisation had been approved for citizenship and their names would be forwarded to the cabinet secretariat for announcement in the Royal Gazette soon.

Another interesting point is that in the Thai wording it was mentioned that many applicants have waited 5-7 years, with the clear implication that this is too long, although he acknowledges the need for carefully vetting on grounds of national security. This point, of course, is equally applicable to applicants for PR. The fact that Anuphong is showing determination to reduce waiting time and eliminate opportunities for extortion is a good sign.

Arkady, I've read a report with the names of 369 foreign wives of Thai citizens and information that they don't need to pay anything (just check the name), but cannot find any reference with regards to 272 approved applications and long waiting time. Can you please specify where have you got it from? thanks

See here

Thai nationality approved for 369 wives 10 Oct 2014.docx

and here

DOPA 369 wives Oct 2014.pdf

Also thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/page-41

[scorecard]

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A friend with good connections who applied in 2011 just got a call to say his PR application had been approved by the new minister, Anuphong, and would be passed back to CW soon. I think this may not be an isolated occurrence because there has just been an announcement from Anuphong about citizenship approvals. The announcement said that 369 foreign wives wives of Thai nationals and another 272 applicants for naturalisation had been approved for citizenship and their names would be forwarded to the cabinet secretariat for announcement in the Royal Gazette soon. Since it is the same department at the Dept of Provincial Administration (DoPA) that handles PR applications, it is very likely that the same approach is being taken with PR applications.

In addition to the media announcements there is also a short announcement on DoPA's website that contains some interesting wordinghttp://www.dopa.go.th/index.php/information/knowlege/2817-2014-10-10-12-09-13 . It says that the list of names of the wives is to be published on DoPA's website to prevent state officials or other persons from taking advantage of them. Presumably Anuphong is concerned that government officials or lawyers, knowing in advance who is on the list, could contact the applicants and tell them a new quota has opened up and that they can get applicants on to it for a couple of hundred thousand baht, as we heard was done by sharp lawyers acting on behalf of PR applicants just before the large batches were approved in 2011. Another interesting point is that in the Thai wording it was mentioned that many applicants have waited 5-7 years, with the clear implication that this is too long, although he acknowledges the need for carefully vetting on grounds of national security. This point, of course, is equally applicable to applicants for PR. The fact that Anuphong is showing determination to reduce waiting time and eliminate opportunities for extortion is a good sign.

I don't want to raise any false hopes but I think there is a good chance that Anuphong will free up the PR logjam. The fact that he seems to see long waiting times as a symptom of deliberate lack of transparency and corruption is in sharp contrast the approach of Purachai, the social order campaigner who served as Thaksin's first IM until T got jealous of his popularity. Purachai took the opposite view and accused the police and ministry staff of taking bribes from applicants for PR and citizenship because, as he said, it was plain for all to see that all the applicants were utterly worthless and could have only got past the screening process by paying bribes. Unwittingly perhaps his demand for additional scrutiny was what lengthened the waiting time for PR (used to be only 12 months) considerably and opened up the opportunity for extortion. Since the minister had total discretion over both processes, things can go either way when there is a new. For now this one looks optimistic.

I got PR many years ago but haven't seriously followed much recent discussion and I was unaware, until just now, about the discussions about 'pink' cards etc.

What is CW? please.

[samran]

CW= Chaeng Wattana

[Bubbha]

I’m a PR applicant from December 2013. My application has moved from Immigration to Interior. I am on the 6 month extension of stay permit cycle while waiting for final review/processing at Interior.

I am a US citizen and need to apply for a new passport in December/January. What is the procedure at Immigration for new passports and the 6 month extension of stay & re-entry permit?

• Will Immigration transfer the 6 month extension stay & re-entry permit to the new passport?
• Or, will Immigration require that I use both old and new passport until it’s time for the follow-on 6 month extension of stay & re-entry permit?

Thanks for any advice you might have.

[Mario2008]

Once you have the new passport you visit immigration and have the details transferred from the old to the new passport. You will need copies of both old and new passport and a letter from your embassy asking for transfer of stamps to new passport.

[camerata]

Could someone remind me what documents I need to get a new non-quota immigrant visa (re-entry) and endorsement? My notes are somewhere on my old phone. IIRC they didn't require any copies at all last time, just passport, PR and Alien's Book.

[onthemoon]

Could someone remind me what documents I need to get a new non-quota immigrant visa (re-entry) and endorsement? My notes are somewhere on my old phone. IIRC they didn't require any copies at all last time, just passport, PR and Alien's Book.

I think I also brought the tabien ban and some passport pictures last time, but am not sure any more whether they were needed.

Oh yes, and money for the re-entry permit.

[camerata]

Thanks. Yeah, I went there today. Basically, two photos, money, passport, alien's book and PR book. No photocopies.

[Arkady]

No notice in the Royal Gazette or on Immigration's website about opening for PR applications yet this year. Last year the RG announcement appeared on 27 November but it appeared as late as 20 December in 2011. So it is still possible that applications will open this year but you've got to be in Bangkok over the holidays with documents prepared to take advantage, if it happens. I believe that the only year in recent times that the window didn't open at all was 2010. I hope that 2014 won't be another bad year. That would seem to go against government policy to ease problems with visas and WPs for foreign investors and it is too cruel to make people wait another year.

Going back in time to the 80s you can find announcements in the RG that were dated in March. That was when Thai offialdom was much kinder and more generous to foreigners. Up until the late 90s they processed all PR applications within 12 months maximum. There is simply no justification for the current practice of restricting applications to a few days in December (or taking 5 or more years to process them). The staff at CW are there every working day of the year and can easily handle applications at any time.

[scorecard]

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Forgot to mention: You (Arkady) say that the pink ID card should include a work permit. I see that a bit differently, I say that holders of a pink ID card should not be required to apply for a work permit.

But that's the next step.

Agree and I see another possible step - granting citizenship much more easily to long-term holders of PR.

I've heard from several arm chair lawyers that this is already in place but I can't find any relevant regulations.

Can anybody with some accurate knowledge on this point please share.

[Time Traveller]

There is simply no justification for the current practice of restricting applications to a few days in December (or taking 5 or more years to process them). The staff at CW are there every working day of the year and can easily handle applications at any time.

The justification is that is the time of the year when many farang workers will be taking annual vacation time and won't be in country to apply!

It happened to me 3 years, then the year I didn't travel was the year they didn't accept any applications. Oh well, nothing lost.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Time Traveller

[Arkady]

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Forgot to mention: You (Arkady) say that the pink ID card should include a work permit. I see that a bit differently, I say that holders of a pink ID card should not be required to apply for a work permit.

But that's the next step.

Agree and I see another possible step - granting citizenship much more easily to long-term holders of PR.

I've heard from several arm chair lawyers that this is already in place but I can't find any relevant regulations.

Can anybody with some accurate knowledge on this point please share.

You get more points for having PR for 10 years but that makes no difference if you are comfortably over 50 points without taking that into account, as most PRs are bound to be and you start losing points for age over 50. Other than that they treat all qualified applicants the same. Actually they are more likely to ask why you didn't apply earlier than give you any special privileges for being slow. At least that was my personal experience.

[skyaslimit]

Are there any updates regarding new applications for 2014 yet?

[ubonjoe]

There will be no applications accepted this year. A person was told this by the PR section at CW.

There have been no announcement of the quotas or the application dates which confirms that info.

[Bubbha]

I understand that the goal is clear the back-log of pending applications before opening again for a new round of applications in December 2015.

[thedemon]

The backlog of pending applications needs to be cleared by the Interior Ministry whereas new applications are handled by the PR department at CW Immigration so that isn't much of an excuse. Those ladies at the PR section are always jovial and friendly but then again they probably have the most leisurely jobs at immigration.

I have to say that I feel really disappointed on behalf of all those that have put quite a lot of time preparing their applications this year. Plus having documents notarized at their embassies, most of which will be useless next year.

That they open for applications only 2 weeks a year for reasons unknown is already unhelpful but going 2 years without receiving an application is a bit ridiculous. In my opinion anyway.

[Bubbha]

My understanding is that all of the pending applications at Interior have been sent back to Immigration for updating the status of the applicants (e.g. still in Thailand, anticipating decision about final approval, etc.). I understand the plan is then for Immigration to send back to Interior for review and decisions about final approval during 2015 -- and then re-open for new applications in December 2015

[ubonjoe]

I understand that the goal is clear the back-log of pending applications before opening again for a new round of applications in December 2015.

I think it is negligence

If the intention was to clear the backlog first they would of announced there would not be applications accepted this year months ago.

[Time Traveller]

I understand that the goal is clear the back-log of pending applications before opening again for a new round of applications in December 2015.

I think it is negligence

If the intention was to clear the backlog first they would of announced there would not be applications accepted this year months ago.

Not negligence. It's normal for Thailand expecially the public service.

[zanaka]

I just hope things get better (faster) to get processed from next year.. Waiting three to four years for the result is an absolute disgrace...

[ubonjoe]

I understand that the goal is clear the back-log of pending applications before opening again for a new round of applications in December 2015.

I think it is negligence

If the intention was to clear the backlog first they would of announced there would not be applications accepted this year months ago.

Not negligence. It's normal for Thailand expecially the public service.

You can blame it on the civil servants in the this case. The quotas and application dates have to be approved by cabinet and published in the Royal Gazette. Somebody was negligent in not doing it.

[Arkady]

I understand that the goal is clear the back-log of pending applications before opening again for a new round of applications in December 2015.

I think it is negligence

If the intention was to clear the backlog first they would of announced there would not be applications accepted this year months ago.

Not negligence. It's normal for Thailand expecially the public service.

You can blame it on the civil servants in the this case. The quotas and application dates have to be approved by cabinet and published in the Royal Gazette. Somebody was negligent in not doing it.

There have been discussions between ministers and the chambers of commerce about what is needed on the visa and WP front to make Thailand more hospitable to foreign investors. Deputy PM Pridyathorn seems to be very on side and Interior Minister Anuphong has displayed his intent to make things more efficient and transparent for foreigners seeking permanent status in Thailand by approving over 400 people for citizenship. It is inconsistent with the government's policies and the signals given to foreign investors that they didn't open for PR applications in 2014. Clearing the backlog is obviously just a poor excuse. The minister cleared a fair bit of the backlog of citizenship applications with a few strokes of his pen after, no doubt booting some officials up the backside. He could easily have done the same for PR and opened for 2014 applications as well. As others have pointed out, most of the work is done by police at Immigration who have little to do most of the time. Interior Ministry officials just arrange the applications in piles and often don't even bother to open the files for years after the application dates.

I think this is just incompetence of some official who failed to put the item on the agenda for a cabinet meeting in time. It is a mere formality, as the wording has never changed since the current Immigration Act of 1979 and probably long before that but it is a legal requirement. Perhaps someone actually wanted to make the minister look bad and embarrass the government in its talks with foreign chambers but might be assuming too much efficiency. The best way to rectify this and show goodwill toward foreign investors would be to open applications for 2015 as soon as possible. There is nothing in the law that says they can only open for the last two weeks of the year and, going back to the 70s and 80s the announcement in the Royal Gazette quite often came as early as March. It was only later on that it drifted to the end of the year. I only know of two years where they didn't open for applications since 1979: 2010 and 2014. That is not a good sign.

[Time Traveller]

There have been discussions between ministers and the chambers of commerce about what is needed on the visa and WP front to make Thailand more hospitable to foreign investors.

I think I've heard Thai officials saying that same thing for about 12 of the last 18 years - and that's only because 6 of those years I wasn't in Thailand. Did anything concrete with visas/work permits actually change in the last 18 years? Nothing I can remember.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Time Traveller