Academics recruited to NLA share anti-Thaksin outlook

[AleG]

 

 

Thaksin is just a symbol used in a fight.

 

The real fight is a fight between the old powers and the poor masses.

Basically the old powers don't want to give full democratic rights to the poor masses, because they would loose power.

Thaksin is used as an excuse for not giving democratic rights to the poor masses.

 

Even if there would be no Thaksin, the conflict would still be there, but the old powers would have to choose a different symbol to fight.

 

 

I absolutely agree.

I listened to the general's speech last night.

It was full of soothing words about ensuring an inclusive reconcilliation between the opposing political camps.

Now this.

This coup and the previous coup were all about pulling power away from the masses who supported Thaksin and a more modern Thailand and giving it back to the people who have run Thailand from the start.

Who are they?

It's the old Bangkok families. The "old guard" born into privilege, with obscene wealth obtained from hundreds of years of titled land ownership, warrants granted to them to run the first industrialised businesses, (remember Thailand supported Japan during the second world war).

This aristocracy have their tentacles into every facet of the Thai economy.

Thaksin came from the North, he started his own business outside of the establishment, made billions in satelite communications before he entered politics, didn't owe the old guard any favours.

When he was elected he began freeing up the economy, allowing the poor to borrow for business, allowing children from poor rural families to get a university education.

And worst of all, began to tell the army what to do (as we do in the West). Too much change too fast.

He threatened the status quo and they had to act.

The problem for the general is that he doesn't understand, you cant put the genie back into the bottle.

They might turn back the clock for 20-30 years, but in the end Bangkok isn't Thailand and the people there who suck up to this regime (read educated government employees) don't have the slightest clue what the rest of the Thai population think or want.

They are living in a fantasy bubble with money supplied by the establishment.

The people will wait patiently at first then if there's not real change and real opportunities for the rural poor, there could be a violent revolution here.

At the moment, I'm not optimistic.

 

 

 

 

You can't blame them , ....as they never read or heared about the French Revolution ..(.1789)...! where te common people also was fed up with their rulers ...

 

 

Ah, yes, the French Revolution, allons somchais de la patrie! That was quite the revolution indeed, as in doing a 360 and ending up with a new emperor, after rolling the heads of thousands upon thousands and other unpleasantries. Yep, what a swell prospect.

 

Talking about the French, here's something I often quote regarding the Red Shirt (astroturfing) movement:

 

"If the people are not educated, if their rights are not explained, if every man does not know his own worth, what he is capable of and what is owed to him, new illusions will succeed the old ones, and after faltering for some time amid a thousand uncertainties, it may come to be that our fortune will be to replace tyrants without destroying tyranny."

Prologue of Mariano Moreno to Rousseau's "The Social Contract"

[HerbalEd]

Who from the red side should have been selected for "balance"? The Nittirat (enlightened jurists) group? I hope not. Any academic who could stand by and even support the rape and pillage of the country is not fit to sit in parliament. Perhaps our red friends would like to see the following in the NLA:.

You have a poor or selective memory. Most of those same academics stood by and watched the same thing, and even supported the governments before Taksin came into power. 

 

As I've said before, I am glad to see the very corrupt criminal, Taksin, long gone. But don't fool yourself that the other side ... the so-called yellow shirts ... were any less corrupt than Taksin, and they were at it for many many years before him.

[david555]

 

 

 

Thaksin is just a symbol used in a fight.

 

The real fight is a fight between the old powers and the poor masses.

Basically the old powers don't want to give full democratic rights to the poor masses, because they would loose power.

Thaksin is used as an excuse for not giving democratic rights to the poor masses.

 

Even if there would be no Thaksin, the conflict would still be there, but the old powers would have to choose a different symbol to fight.

 

 

I absolutely agree.

I listened to the general's speech last night.

It was full of soothing words about ensuring an inclusive reconcilliation between the opposing political camps.

Now this.

This coup and the previous coup were all about pulling power away from the masses who supported Thaksin and a more modern Thailand and giving it back to the people who have run Thailand from the start.

Who are they?

It's the old Bangkok families. The "old guard" born into privilege, with obscene wealth obtained from hundreds of years of titled land ownership, warrants granted to them to run the first industrialised businesses, (remember Thailand supported Japan during the second world war).

This aristocracy have their tentacles into every facet of the Thai economy.

Thaksin came from the North, he started his own business outside of the establishment, made billions in satelite communications before he entered politics, didn't owe the old guard any favours.

When he was elected he began freeing up the economy, allowing the poor to borrow for business, allowing children from poor rural families to get a university education.

And worst of all, began to tell the army what to do (as we do in the West). Too much change too fast.

He threatened the status quo and they had to act.

The problem for the general is that he doesn't understand, you cant put the genie back into the bottle.

They might turn back the clock for 20-30 years, but in the end Bangkok isn't Thailand and the people there who suck up to this regime (read educated government employees) don't have the slightest clue what the rest of the Thai population think or want.

They are living in a fantasy bubble with money supplied by the establishment.

The people will wait patiently at first then if there's not real change and real opportunities for the rural poor, there could be a violent revolution here.

At the moment, I'm not optimistic.

 

 

 

 

You can't blame them , ....as they never read or heared about the French Revolution ..(.1789)...! where te common people also was fed up with their rulers ...

 

 

Ah, yes, the French Revolution, allons somchais de la patrie! That was quite the revolution indeed, as in doing a 360 and ending up with a new emperor, after rolling the heads of thousands upon thousands and other unpleasantries. Yep, what a swell prospect.

 

Talking about the French, here's something I often quote regarding the Red Shirt (astroturfing) movement:

 

"If the people are not educated, if their rights are not explained, if every man does not know his own worth, what he is capable of and what is owed to him, new illusions will succeed the old ones, and after faltering for some time amid a thousand uncertainties, it may come to be that our fortune will be to replace tyrants without destroying tyranny."

Prologue of Mariano Moreno to Rousseau's "The Social Contract"

 

yes indeed they had later an emperor .... but not one by" birthright ".....one who came from lower rang...., i I only mean by compairing the French revolution , that from that moment many low  mass peoples start realizing their power .....

[northernjohn]

Sharing the anti-Thaksin outlook is of utmost importance. Paramount. Instead of sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all, due process, freedom of speech, individual and equal opportunity for all, they are most concerned with "selecting" those holding anti-Thaksin views.

 

Being anti Thaksin is supporting sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all (including those who are not his personal friends) due process of law (once again including those who are not Thaksin's personnel friends or on his pay roll) freedom of speech that is honest and last but not least equality for all.

[Thai at Heart]

Robbok,
 
Just want to say I am not red or yellow, I am orange.
Thaksin and Yingluck are not my beloved leaders, neither are Suthep and Prayuth.
Put me somewhere in the middle. I think all sides have made huge mistakes.
And all sides have used/sacrificed the people in a fight for personal power or for protecting or expanding their wealth.

My two examples are Abisith and Korn. Never Sutthep he was a means to an end but you kept bringing up stuff That i had to counter. 
 
Right now i am like most optimistic with the junta.. but not about everything. 
 
I like how the junta cleans house things that were impossible to do are being done now.

Cleaning up beaches and inspecting warehouses makes for good photos. Let's see what they come up with for structuring the parliaments for the future.

[HerbalEd]

 

 

 

It seems to me that the vast majority of Thai people (upwards of 80%) are more than happy with the outcome - what would you call this camp ?

 

Do you honestly believe that vast majority now feels free and unafraid to express any discontent and criticism they have with the present situation? This is not a rhetorical question, so please do answer.

Edited August 2, 2014 by HerbalEd

[northernjohn]

 

 If you were to ask the average Joe/Somchai on the street what he thought about common-or-garden cults such as Jonestown,Manson family,Joe Carroll etc he would answer that he feels a mix of revulsion and ghoulish intrigue. Why then do some posters expect that neutral bystanders would have positive thoughts about the cult of Shinawat? Indeed, if any of the NLA thought it appropriate that a family of billionaire criminals are the only suitable leaders for a sovereign nation for ever, that would be the real surprise.

 

 To put it succinctly there is no place in government for a billionaire criminal cabal no matter how much they spend on global PR. End of.

The people that are selected are not just Thaksin haters - they are part of the Suthep camp.

People choosen for the NLA should be neutral, or if that's not possible, they should choose people from each side.

 

 

 

Like him or hate him makes no difference you can not change the reality that he was the one unifying person to bring about the end to a Johnstown style rush for Democracy in Thailand.

[HerbalEd]

 

Sharing the anti-Thaksin outlook is of utmost importance. Paramount. Instead of sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all, due process, freedom of speech, individual and equal opportunity for all, they are most concerned with "selecting" those holding anti-Thaksin views.

 

Being anti Thaksin is supporting sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all (including those who are not his personal friends) due process of law (once again including those who are not Thaksin's personnel friends or on his pay roll) freedom of speech that is honest and last but not least equality for all.

 

Does that also include equal partricipitation and representation for all? 

[HerbalEd]

There are only two reasons to be pro-Thaksin......

1.  you get Thaksin originated money or

2.  you are a deluded knee jerk believing in simplistic answers for a complex Thailand problem.

 

Thaksin was and now is the most evil force for destruction of the nation.  His influence needs a root-canal extraction.  That hurts, makes you sick for a while, but it heals up and you can be ok again.  Same for Thailand.

Relax knee jerks.

You know, one can be anti-Taksin and yet still support the poor farmers and laborers. It is a very unwise government who shuts them out yet again. The wise government ... even one that's made up of 100% the old elite power ... would now treat those masses with respect and actually work towards improving their life and ability to participate in their country's government ... yes, it's their country too. But, alas, wisdom is in short supply in Thailand.

Edited August 2, 2014 by HerbalEd

[jaidam]

 

There are only two reasons to be pro-Thaksin......

1.  you get Thaksin originated money or

2.  you are a deluded knee jerk believing in simplistic answers for a complex Thailand problem.

 

Thaksin was and now is the most evil force for destruction of the nation.  His influence needs a root-canal extraction.  That hurts, makes you sick for a while, but it heals up and you can be ok again.  Same for Thailand.

Relax knee jerks.

You know, one can be anti-Taksin and yet still support the poor farmers and laborers. It is a very unwise government who shuts them out yet again. The wise government ... even one that's made up of 100% the old elite power ... would now treat those masses with respect and actually work towards improving their life and ability to participate in their country's government ... yes, it's their country too. But, alas, wisdom is in short supply in Thailand.

 

 

 Allow me to explain the flaw in your logic. One of Thaksin's PR missions was to make the poor believe he was fighting for their lot. However if you look at the reality of the relationship between Thaksin and the poor since his ascension to power it tells a very different story. The poor over the last decade have become more poor. Thaksin on the other hand has increased his wealth many times over. Schemes such as his rice scheme actually made the poor suffer while the rich millers/warehouse owners/transport company owners(hello Nutt.) became rich on the backs of the suffering poor. It caused farm land rents to skyrocket, did that benefit the poor? Their industry is shot for the near/mid term future, not much help is it?

 

 Household debt increased during Thaksin's tenure. His easy loans to fritter away on toys such as cell phones again enriched Thaksin and hurt "his" poor fans. Huge soft loans to Burma to buy Thaksin's companies products ipstar again took money(billions) from the govt that could have been used to relieve the burden of the poor again went straight into Thaksin's pocket. Are you seeing some sort of pattern emerging here? I could go on giving examples all day if needed.

 

 Thaksin is as much help to the poor as a crack pipe is.
 

[northernjohn]

 

I hope that Thaksin doesn't come back, but the fact that the new leaders are mostly part of the Suthep camp and that mainly red-shirt leaders are the ones blamed for all the deaths and injuries, clearly shows that the army is not a neutral player (and never was).

 

They are clearly preparing a "democracy???" in which one side (the red shirt side) can never win again.

 

completely disagree

 

 

You are confusing a legitimate democratic law biding group of people with a government that was bought and paid for by a billionaire criminal on the run crackpot using his stolen billions to fund what amounts to a mafia/terrorist organisation which in turn embarked on a clever terror/propaganda brainwashing program to dominate the Thai people - The PDRC were a group of ordinary peaceful people who saw it for what it was and decided to do something about it 

 

If Thaksin couldn't see his plan through to the end he was on a path to destroy this country and it's people both economically and socially all in the name of reconciliation which turned out to be a rouge and a lie on mammoth scale - remember the buzz words  reconciliation and democracy  almost 3 years ago - just look at were it ended up - take the blinkers off and see it for what it was

 

Thailand is in a good place right now lets hope it continues and the reforms finally see this country emerge as true democracy with a mindset and political landscape that will eventually put an end to corruption lies and blind theft from the Thai people - they have come of age and it will no longer be tolerated

 

 

I once said on this very forum that Thailand needs a good man in power to move this country forward and out of it's 3rd world status - it seems that one has emerged called Prayuth

 

The red terrorist machine is done - it's funding has been removed - it's mafia (I am red) organisation is being dismantled - it's arms are being disposed of - those that committed murder on Thaksins direction are being arrested, hopefully those that gave the orders will also be brought to justice including red leaders and senior members of PTP government - do you really want to see some of these people back in any form of government - I think not

 

 

Another thing that the backers of the corruption orientated Thaksin fail to recognize is that before May 22 there were many red shirts who no longer wanted Thaksin to be associated with politics. Yet their highly paid leaders receiving large checks from Thaksin ignored them.

 

These were the poor and undereducated people who just got tired of the highly paid Thaksin red shirt pay roll constantly trying to get them to cause trouble. Now that Thaksin is in essence a dead issue and the highly paid red shirt leaders no longer receiving their pay check peace has descended on Thailand and the only one's opposed to it are the ones who have had their source of income cut off with the cut back in corruption and the lack of money flow from the Thaksin check book.

Edited August 2, 2014 by northernjohn

[HerbalEd]

 

 

There are only two reasons to be pro-Thaksin......

1.  you get Thaksin originated money or

2.  you are a deluded knee jerk believing in simplistic answers for a complex Thailand problem.

 

Thaksin was and now is the most evil force for destruction of the nation.  His influence needs a root-canal extraction.  That hurts, makes you sick for a while, but it heals up and you can be ok again.  Same for Thailand.

Relax knee jerks.

You know, one can be anti-Taksin and yet still support the poor farmers and laborers. It is a very unwise government who shuts them out yet again. The wise government ... even one that's made up of 100% the old elite power ... would now treat those masses with respect and actually work towards improving their life and ability to participate in their country's government ... yes, it's their country too. But, alas, wisdom is in short supply in Thailand.

 

 

 Allow me to explain the flaw in your logic. One of Thaksin's PR missions was to make the poor believe he was fighting for their lot. However if you look at the reality of the relationship between Thaksin and the poor since his ascension to power it tells a very different story. The poor over the last decade have become more poor. Thaksin on the other hand has increased his wealth many times over. Schemes such as his rice scheme actually made the poor suffer while the rich millers/warehouse owners/transport company owners(hello Nutt.) became rich on the backs of the suffering poor. It caused farm land rents to skyrocket, did that benefit the poor? Their industry is shot for the near/mid term future, not much help is it?

 

 Household debt increased during Thaksin's tenure. His easy loans to fritter away on toys such as cell phones again enriched Thaksin and hurt "his" poor fans. Huge soft loans to Burma to buy Thaksin's companies products ipstar again took money(billions) from the govt that could have been used to relieve the burden of the poor again went straight into Thaksin's pocket. Are you seeing some sort of pattern emerging here? I could go on giving examples all day if needed.

 

 Thaksin is as much help to the poor as a crack pipe is.
 

 

I'm well aware of the evils of Taksin. I don't need your detailed history lesson. But he did do some good things for the poor masses ... albeit for his own nefarious purposes, and that was a very new experience for them. But you'd have to be a fool to believe that the power elite before Taksin cared about the poor or did much good for them. I will agree that the present government's start at cleaning up corruption ... and finally paying the rice farmers ... is a good thing for the the farmers and laborers (the underclass). However, not allowing their advocates to participate in the new government appears to be a sign of the old power elite doing business as usual and the poor being put back in their powerless place.

Edited August 2, 2014 by HerbalEd

[northernjohn]

 

 

There are only two reasons to be pro-Thaksin......

1.  you get Thaksin originated money or

2.  you are a deluded knee jerk believing in simplistic answers for a complex Thailand problem.

 

Thaksin was and now is the most evil force for destruction of the nation.  His influence needs a root-canal extraction.  That hurts, makes you sick for a while, but it heals up and you can be ok again.  Same for Thailand.

Relax knee jerks.

You know, one can be anti-Taksin and yet still support the poor farmers and laborers. It is a very unwise government who shuts them out yet again. The wise government ... even one that's made up of 100% the old elite power ... would now treat those masses with respect and actually work towards improving their life and ability to participate in their country's government ... yes, it's their country too. But, alas, wisdom is in short supply in Thailand.

 

 

 Allow me to explain the flaw in your logic. One of Thaksin's PR missions was to make the poor believe he was fighting for their lot. However if you look at the reality of the relationship between Thaksin and the poor since his ascension to power it tells a very different story. The poor over the last decade have become more poor. Thaksin on the other hand has increased his wealth many times over. Schemes such as his rice scheme actually made the poor suffer while the rich millers/warehouse owners/transport company owners(hello Nutt.) became rich on the backs of the suffering poor. It caused farm land rents to skyrocket, did that benefit the poor? Their industry is shot for the near/mid term future, not much help is it?

 

 Household debt increased during Thaksin's tenure. His easy loans to fritter away on toys such as cell phones again enriched Thaksin and hurt "his" poor fans. Huge soft loans to Burma to buy Thaksin's companies products ipstar again took money(billions) from the govt that could have been used to relieve the burden of the poor again went straight into Thaksin's pocket. Are you seeing some sort of pattern emerging here? I could go on giving examples all day if needed.

 

 Thaksin is as much help to the poor as a crack pipe is.
 

 

 

You do realize that you are dealing with people who are not interested in reality. As you say Thaksin gave them cheap credit it was meant to pay off the loan sharks. How ever there was no mechanizing built in to see that the money went there. As you say they wound up with new motor bikes and expensive cell phones besides their loan shark debts. The poor in Thailand are just as poor as the day Thaksin first entered office in 2,000 In the last 14 years he has had direct control of the government  ten of them.

 

It would be very interesting to see how many of the poor rice farmers have had to sell their land and lease it back in the last three years. Also how much land Thaksin's pals have been able to buy up.

[Krataiboy]

Thaksin is just a symbol used in a fight.

 

The real fight is a fight between the old powers and the poor masses.

Basically the old powers don't want to give full democratic rights to the poor masses, because they would loose power.

Thaksin is used as an excuse for not giving democratic rights to the poor masses.

 

Even if there would be no Thaksin, the conflict would still be there, but the old powers would have to choose a different symbol to fight.

 

 

Absolutely. One needs to divorce the man from the office. And to use some simple logic. One bad apple in the barrel doesn't mean the rest are bound to be rotten.

 

Thaksin's abuses of power should not be used to ditch the principle of democratic government, which is how things are shaping up under the present administration - most topically with a proposed National Legislative Assembly dominated by the military.

 

Few thinking folk will mourn Taksin's withdrawal from the Thai political arena, but only a knave or a fool would wish to throw out the baby of Thailand's embryonic democracy along with his dirty bathwater.

[smedly]

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that the vast majority of Thai people (upwards of 80%) are more than happy with the outcome - what would you call this camp ?

 

Do you honestly believe that vast majority now feels free and unafraid to express any discontent and criticism they have with the present situation? This is not a rhetorical question, so please do answer.

 

 

absolutely 100%

 

The only people that might not be so happy are those that were benefitting from corruption and the lack of proper law enforcement, I don't think that would exceed 20% of those living here - if you think it is more then you are just enforcing the argument that this society needs fixing and PTP were adding to and or were part of the problem

 

Over the years in the west I have become aware of those in society that don't like law enforcement - they are usually criminals or those that have broken the law and been caught

[rubl]

 

 If you were to ask the average Joe/Somchai on the street what he thought about common-or-garden cults such as Jonestown,Manson family,Joe Carroll etc he would answer that he feels a mix of revulsion and ghoulish intrigue. Why then do some posters expect that neutral bystanders would have positive thoughts about the cult of Shinawat? Indeed, if any of the NLA thought it appropriate that a family of billionaire criminals are the only suitable leaders for a sovereign nation for ever, that would be the real surprise.

 

 To put it succinctly there is no place in government for a billionaire criminal cabal no matter how much they spend on global PR. End of.

I agree. Can't you red fools see?  Democracy doesn't matter.  Fairness doesn't matter.  All that matters is that the hierarchy is accepted and forever established, and we should all kneel and kiss the Good General's feet, all of us, even Jesus.  Thaksin invented corruption, and a Dusit poll proved it.  He and the other mad political scientists even travelled back in time and invented malaria.  It's a fact -- just check the new history books.

 

Thaksin invented Thai corruption.

Thaksin invented kick backs .

Thaksin invented gambling and drug running and even TVF...just to confuse his opponents.

Thaksin went back in time, as before, and invented human trafficking.

Thaksin invented graft.

Thaksin invented stolen rice, all the way back to before he was born.

Thaksin, dire bugger, invented hiccups.

 

Death to the ear medicine guzzling bag toting red thug loving Dubai caddy shack serving graft inventing Shins.

 

We have a new one, just for him.  Several generations can now be held accountable for their grandfather's debts, so we now have a way to make all Thaksin's non-Thai.  

 

Put that in your pipes and smoke it!  Ah, the aroma of truth...take a good whiff.

 

 

You already smoked the aroma of obfuscation it would seem.

 

Thaksin didn't invent anything, he just used and misused what was already there and in many cases managed to 'improve' on it.

 

Oh and by the way, 'ear medicine' is reserved for a non-Shin 

[HerbalEd]

 

 

 

There are only two reasons to be pro-Thaksin......

1.  you get Thaksin originated money or

2.  you are a deluded knee jerk believing in simplistic answers for a complex Thailand problem.

 

Thaksin was and now is the most evil force for destruction of the nation.  His influence needs a root-canal extraction.  That hurts, makes you sick for a while, but it heals up and you can be ok again.  Same for Thailand.

Relax knee jerks.

You know, one can be anti-Taksin and yet still support the poor farmers and laborers. It is a very unwise government who shuts them out yet again. The wise government ... even one that's made up of 100% the old elite power ... would now treat those masses with respect and actually work towards improving their life and ability to participate in their country's government ... yes, it's their country too. But, alas, wisdom is in short supply in Thailand.

 

 

 Allow me to explain the flaw in your logic. One of Thaksin's PR missions was to make the poor believe he was fighting for their lot. However if you look at the reality of the relationship between Thaksin and the poor since his ascension to power it tells a very different story. The poor over the last decade have become more poor. Thaksin on the other hand has increased his wealth many times over. Schemes such as his rice scheme actually made the poor suffer while the rich millers/warehouse owners/transport company owners(hello Nutt.) became rich on the backs of the suffering poor. It caused farm land rents to skyrocket, did that benefit the poor? Their industry is shot for the near/mid term future, not much help is it?

 

 Household debt increased during Thaksin's tenure. His easy loans to fritter away on toys such as cell phones again enriched Thaksin and hurt "his" poor fans. Huge soft loans to Burma to buy Thaksin's companies products ipstar again took money(billions) from the govt that could have been used to relieve the burden of the poor again went straight into Thaksin's pocket. Are you seeing some sort of pattern emerging here? I could go on giving examples all day if needed.

 

 Thaksin is as much help to the poor as a crack pipe is.
 

 

 

You do realize that you are dealing with people who are not interested in reality. As you say Thaksin gave them cheap credit it was meant to pay off the loan sharks. How ever there was no mechanizing built in to see that the money went there. As you say they wound up with new motor bikes and expensive cell phones besides their loan shark debts. The poor in Thailand are just as poor as the day Thaksin first entered office in 2,000 In the last 14 years he has had direct control of the government  ten of them.

 

It would be very interesting to see how many of the poor rice farmers have had to sell their land and lease it back in the last three years. Also how much land Thaksin's pals have been able to buy up.

 

So are you saying that the poor were better off before Taksin and that those who were in power better looked after their interests? Do you think they'll be better off in the next five years?

 

When do you think there will be a future government that actually makes it a priority to improve the lives of Thailand's underclass. Or do you think they are too stupid to be helped and thus it's useless to try and help them?

Edited August 2, 2014 by HerbalEd

[HerbalEd]

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that the vast majority of Thai people (upwards of 80%) are more than happy with the outcome - what would you call this camp ?

 

Do you honestly believe that vast majority now feels free and unafraid to express any discontent and criticism they have with the present situation? This is not a rhetorical question, so please do answer.

 

 

absolutely 100%

 

The only people that might not be so happy are those that were benefitting from corruption and the lack of proper law enforcement, I don't think that would exceed 20% of those living here - if you think it is more then you are just enforcing the argument that this society needs fixing and PTP were adding to and or were part of the problem

 

Over the years in the west I have become aware of those in society that don't like law enforcement - they are usually criminals or those that have broken the law and been caught

 

So is it a lie that those who have publically expressed discontent with the present government have been arrested or "reeducated"? 

 

As to those in the west who are critical of law enforcement, many are people who have been brutalized or extorted by the police. Thanks to smartphones and YouTube you can view large numbers of these incidents yourself. 

 

BTW, I'm not anti police and most of them are good people with a very difficult and often dangerous job. However, way too many of them are violent thugs and too many of their fellow officers and supervisors protect them. I think just as the Catholic church attracts an inordinate number of pedophiles and sexual deviants, the police force draws an inordinate number of bullies who use their police powers for their sick and violent enjoyment. 

Edited August 2, 2014 by HerbalEd

[Old Man River]

Sharing the anti-Thaksin outlook is of utmost importance. Paramount. Instead of sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all, due process, freedom of speech, individual and equal opportunity for all, they are most concerned with "selecting" those holding anti-Thaksin views.

So, basically, you think that only people that are pro-Thaksin are good people, correct?


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[djjamie]

 

 

Thaksin is just a symbol used in a fight.

 

The real fight is a fight between the old powers and the poor masses.

Basically the old powers don't want to give full democratic rights to the poor masses, because they would loose power.

Thaksin is used as an excuse for not giving democratic rights to the poor masses.

 

Even if there would be no Thaksin, the conflict would still be there, but the old powers would have to choose a different symbol to fight.

 

 

I absolutely agree.

I listened to the general's speech last night.

It was full of soothing words about ensuring an inclusive reconcilliation between the opposing political camps.

Now this.

This coup and the previous coup were all about pulling power away from the masses who supported Thaksin and a more modern Thailand and giving it back to the people who have run Thailand from the start.

Who are they?

It's the old Bangkok families. The "old guard" born into privilege, with obscene wealth obtained from hundreds of years of titled land ownership, warrants granted to them to run the first industrialised businesses, (remember Thailand supported Japan during the second world war).

This aristocracy have their tentacles into every facet of the Thai economy.

Thaksin came from the North, he started his own business outside of the establishment, made billions in satelite communications before he entered politics, didn't owe the old guard any favours.

When he was elected he began freeing up the economy, allowing the poor to borrow for business, allowing children from poor rural families to get a university education.

And worst of all, began to tell the army what to do (as we do in the West). Too much change too fast.

He threatened the status quo and they had to act.

The problem for the general is that he doesn't understand, you cant put the genie back into the bottle.

They might turn back the clock for 20-30 years, but in the end Bangkok isn't Thailand and the people there who suck up to this regime (read educated government employees) don't have the slightest clue what the rest of the Thai population think or want.

They are living in a fantasy bubble with money supplied by the establishment.

The people will wait patiently at first then if there's not real change and real opportunities for the rural poor, there could be a violent revolution here.

At the moment, I'm not optimistic.

 

 

 

Just to show how wrong this post is, one example:

 

Thaksin came from the North, he started his own business outside of the establishment, made billions in satelite communications before he entered politics, didn't owe the old guard any favours.

 

Sunthorn Kongsompong, the general that ousted democratically elected PM Chatchai Chunhawan in the 1991 coup handed Thaksin not just a concession, but a monopoly on satellite communications. He made his billions by using his wife's family patronage network to  gain a monopoly in providing computer services to the police (while he was still a policeman), then by getting a cell phone monopoy from a military junta, and then the satellite monopoly.

Old fashioned cronysm, not by some fabled business genious and very much by seeking and paying back favours. Sunthon had 150 million dollars to his name when he died, not bad for someone on a general's salary.

 

 

So you're saying that thaksin supports coups when he is able to make billions of baht off them, but denounces them when he looses his ability to make billions of baht. 

 

The Right Honorable Ahbisit denounced all 3 coups since 1991. Thaksin denounced 2.

 

then by getting a cell phone monopoy from a military junta,

 

Why did I quote that? Lets get onto that later. It refers to what is highlighted in red below because some have memories like goldfish when it comes to thaksin and the PTP. 

 

When he was elected he began freeing up the economy, allowing the poor to borrow for business,

 

I assume you refer to the one village fund? The fund was supposed to be used as a tool to reduce loan sharks. Nevertheless, instead of reducing them, it ended up exacerbating the effect. The need for borrowers to pay back their loans quickly (within a year) to the government after receiving loans from the fund caused borrowers to look to loan sharks for more loans to pay back previous loans. Although most households did pay back loans, they did so by borrowing from other sources. They even borrowed from the fund to pay back other debts by loan sharks which was not its intended purpose.

 

Household debt had gone up almost 100 percent from 2002 to 2004. It significantly increased from 68,405 Baht in 2000 (before TRT came to power) to 110,133 Baht in the first quarter of 2004.

 

Another problem was that the duration in which debtors had to pay back loans was too short (one year), and thus borrowers were unable to make use of loans. Especially in impoverished areas, people had limited loans of no more than 20,000 Baht. 

 

Income inequality also got worse after the implementation of the program, due mainly to the manner in which the money was distributed: it was not sent directly to the poor. Around 90% of those receiving loans were categorized as non-poor and the poor had the lowest access to funding in all regions, except Bangkok. Among the poor, 6.53% of the extremely poor had access to the loans. 

 

While the Village Fund program was able to increase household expenditures, households failed to utilize loans they received for investment purposes, which would have helped generate more jobs and incomes. Household expenditure increased from 189,258 Baht to 203,635 Baht or 7.6% increase compared to the period before the program began.

 

In addition, the program was designed without developing a plan on how the loans should be used by debtors, and as a result, most household expenditures were spent on non-consumption expenditure. The Chamber of Commerce’s findings showed that 40% of the fund was used to repay debt, 20% for luxuries, and 5% for productive investment. Clearly, the majority of people who took loans from the scheme did not use money to invest in their farms or businesses; instead they used loans to buy commodities that were beyond the means of decent subsistence, such as motorcycles, electronic devices, and cell phones. Thaksin being the sole distributor of mobile phones at the time essentially gave tax payers money to the poor who in turn gave it directly back to him!

 

Households were also not able to increase savings, despite the increase in their income. Savings stayed at the same level of 28.1% of overall expenditure,

 

Thus, it can be concluded that people did not utilize loans towards investment activities that could help them escape poverty. Which is the common theme in not only Thaksin populism, but populism worldwide. The schemes are supposed to look good, win votes, but keep them poor. If it didn't then the carrot in front of the donkey would disappear and people would vote freely based on strong political credentials, honesty, integrity and transparency.

 

Next you will say there is no corruption in the rice scheme!!!

 

So when the NLA has an anti thaksin outlook, I smile because I know that means a pro democracy outlook. 

Edited August 2, 2014 by djjamie

[NeilSA1]

 

 If you were to ask the average Joe/Somchai on the street what he thought about common-or-garden cults such as Jonestown,Manson family,Joe Carroll etc he would answer that he feels a mix of revulsion and ghoulish intrigue. Why then do some posters expect that neutral bystanders would have positive thoughts about the cult of Shinawat? Indeed, if any of the NLA thought it appropriate that a family of billionaire criminals are the only suitable leaders for a sovereign nation for ever, that would be the real surprise.

 

 To put it succinctly there is no place in government for a billionaire criminal cabal no matter how much they spend on global PR. End of.

I agree. Can't you red fools see?  Democracy doesn't matter.  Fairness doesn't matter.  All that matters is that the hierarchy is accepted and forever established, and we should all kneel and kiss the Good General's feet, all of us, even Jesus.  Thaksin invented corruption, and a Dusit poll proved it.  He and the other mad political scientists even travelled back in time and invented malaria.  It's a fact -- just check the new history books.

 

Thaksin invented Thai corruption.

Thaksin invented kick backs .

Thaksin invented gambling and drug running and even TVF...just to confuse his opponents.

Thaksin went back in time, as before, and invented human trafficking.

Thaksin invented graft.

Thaksin invented stolen rice, all the way back to before he was born.

Thaksin, dire bugger, invented hiccups.

 

Death to the ear medicine guzzling bag toting red thug loving Dubai caddy shack serving graft inventing Shins.

 

We have a new one, just for him.  Several generations can now be held accountable for their grandfather's debts, so we now have a way to make all Thaksin's non-Thai.  

 

Put that in your pipes and smoke it!  Ah, the aroma of truth...take a good whiff.

 

No he didn't invent all that, he just perfected them.                                    No thanks. There was an aroma, but it was not truth and no one in their right minds would want a whiff.                 

[Robby nz]

 

 

Thaksin is just a symbol used in a fight.

 

The real fight is a fight between the old powers and the poor masses.

Basically the old powers don't want to give full democratic rights to the poor masses, because they would loose power.

Thaksin is used as an excuse for not giving democratic rights to the poor masses.

 

Even if there would be no Thaksin, the conflict would still be there, but the old powers would have to choose a different symbol to fight.

 

 

rubbish

 

 

Well, remember Samak? He was sent out because he cooked on TV.

It wouldn't matter which leader the red shirt camp chooses, eventually he/she would be linked to Thaksin and the government would be overthrown for this (fake) reason.

The real reason for the coup is not Thanksin and not even corruption - it are the old powers clinging on to their wealth and power.

 

Personally I think it would be a very good thing for Thailand if the whole Thaksin family would redraw from politics.

But even in this case the red shirt movement would choose new leaders.... and there would be another coup.

It's a never ending story....

 

 

Samak as not done because he cooked on TV he was ousted because he lied about it.

 

The so called red shirt movement is completely Thalsin driven and is founded on lies and hate.

 

Red villages were set up where those who lived there did what they were told and voted as they were told.

 

Red schools were started to continue the hate and lies into future generations.

 

You want examples of the lies, The Dem Govt of Abhisit was installed by the military....a lie.

 

The Dems only cared for the rich and never helped the poor...a lie.

 

They did plenty in their short time in office.

 

Education for instance; they raised the age of free education from 12 to 15, made school books and uniforms free (PT Govt made parents pay again) they had a package of education reforms on the table which was dumped by PT.

 

They had a rice support scheme in place which paid direct to the farmer, did not break the bank and did not accumulate a huge stockpile nor distort the market.

 

They had a package of land reform that had been vetted by the Council of State and was ready for a first reading,...Dumped by PT.

 

There is more if you really want to know, not to difficult to find out.

 

They were just as or more corrupt...a lie

 

In spite of them having to take on the corrupt parasite parties to form a Govt, corruption leveled out and started to drop while they were in office then rose sharply again to a new high during PT administration.

 

And the big one : Abhisit and Suthep are murderers...a lie. Which will soon be proven as such when they get their day in court.

 

Then there is the lie, or 'fairy tale' as the editor of another publication called it, which, you carry on, of : "the old powers clinging on to their wealth and power"

 

It was those lies, and others, along with their populist policies which got PTP into power.

 

It is those unsustainable policies and their lies and corruption that got them thrown out.

 

So it would seem that being anti Thaksin means in fact being anti lies and corruption, which cant be a bad thing.

[Fat Haggis]

Which all mean nothing to farangs who are constantly leaping up and down about Thai politics when they have ZERO say or input in the outcomes.

But they do love to wave their banners proclaiming the world is a better place well I've not noticed a single thing that is different for me or my family in the 2 years I've been living here and I doubt Anyone else has seen much impact either.
If anything there's a purge against farangs regarding visa issues and work permits etc that includes all NON Thais good thing or not is yet to be decided but there will be tougher and more stringent control methods against farangs in the coming months and many people will be worrying about their quint little life they have.

I couldn't care a monkeys about Thaksin or Suthep but I want my family to start benefiting the change in the regime and not to be pushed out of the way!!!

[jayjayjayjay]

I hope that Thaksin doesn't come back, but the fact that the new leaders are mostly part of the Suthep camp and that mainly red-shirt leaders are the ones blamed for all the deaths and injuries, clearly shows that the army is not a neutral player (and never was).
 
They are clearly preparing a "democracy???" in which one side (the red shirt side) can never win again.

A democracy in which the reds are effectively excluded, which by definition means minority will rule, will result in Thailand following the disasterous path of one very sad poor country Nepal. Buhhda have mercy.

[SICHONSTEVE]

 

 

I hope that Thaksin doesn't come back, but the fact that the new leaders are mostly part of the Suthep camp and that mainly red-shirt leaders are the ones blamed for all the deaths and injuries, clearly shows that the army is not a neutral player (and never was).
 
They are clearly preparing a "democracy???" in which one side (the red shirt side) can never win again.

 
 Brilliant news!!!
 
 Eliminate Thaksin/Yingluck and their cronies with all the damage that they have caused, from Thai life for the betterment of Thailand and it's people.
 
 I have to say that what General Prayuth has done to date exceeds all of my expectations and statues of him shouldn't be too far off as he has radically changed the whole substance of Thai life in a few short months. I even agree with what he has done with the press and media.

You think this is going to put the genie back in the bottle. Banning Thaksin and insisting that Thailand go back to some rose tinted era isn't going to be enough.


There are some murmurs of reform, pensions for farmers and even a land tax. But really there are still at least 10mn farmers living not much more than hand to mouth.

So let's see how far this reform goes because trying to eradicate Thaksin without replacing him with something or someone else isn't going to work.

 

 

 Yes!! removing every semblance of Thaksinism will promote all Thai's wellbeing and moving forward (not backwards) will get Thailand back on it's feet again, just in time for ASEAN.

 

 Ask yourself just why 10 million farmers are having to eek out a living in order to care for their family, even to survive - general Prayuth has eradicated the Shinawatra's from peoples lives and given them hope. It is PRECISELY the medicine that was needed and will bare much fruit.

 

 He is doing an outstandingly good job in seemingly impossible circumstances and he has my utmost respect and thanks for what he is/doing/has done!! I just hope that he stands for PM as he must be the biggest shoe-in going and deserves his chance to continue improving the lives of Thais and good fortune of Thailand!!.

 

 Viva Prayuth, saviour of the LOS (the smiles will return to their faces) - I hope that Thaksin rots in hell and Yingluck accompanies 'dear brother'!!

[djjamie]

Which all mean nothing to farangs who are constantly leaping up and down about Thai politics when they have ZERO say or input in the outcomes.

But they do love to wave their banners proclaiming the world is a better place well I've not noticed a single thing that is different for me or my family in the 2 years I've been living here and I doubt Anyone else has seen much impact either.
If anything there's a purge against farangs regarding visa issues and work permits etc that includes all NON Thais good thing or not is yet to be decided but there will be tougher and more stringent control methods against farangs in the coming months and many people will be worrying about their quint little life they have.

I couldn't care a monkeys about Thaksin or Suthep but I want my family to start benefiting the change in the regime and not to be pushed out of the way!!!

 

Oh my dear friend, you need to open your eyes and see. The winds of change have taken hold and the return to democracy is the sweet smell in the air at the moment that must be masking your ability to see.

 

Look here to see the changes that westerner tourists see on a daily basis. Look here to see changes I have noticed in Khon Kaen. This is just changes by westerners. Imagine the changes through Thai eyes.

 

I am sure the daily terrorist attacks by the previous government have not gone unnoticed either? No deaths by terrorists surely qualifies as "my family benefitting in the change" Apparently you don't hold the abrupt end to terrorist attacks at the top of your "benefiting the families" agenda.

 

You state you have family in Thailand. Do you prefer them to be living under constant threat of terrorism in Bangkok? Do you defend the PTP so much (yes, yes you are a DEM supporter as you keep stating) that you would put your family (children) in danger by recognizing and defending the PTP's right to govern under the terrorist climate they propagated?

 

Do you love your family? Because if you did you would not support this regime you defend (yes, yes you are a DEM supporter as you keep stating).

Edited August 2, 2014 by djjamie

[Hans Donnerborg]

Sharing the anti-Thaksin outlook is of utmost importance. Paramount. Instead of sharing an outlook for law and order, equal justice for all, due process, freedom of speech, individual and equal opportunity for all, they are most concerned with "selecting" those holding anti-Thaksin views.

 

If the red wanna make a stand, theres a big risk.
!. Thailand will be separated into at least autonome regions.

2. Burma Cambodia and not to forget Muslim south will make use of the situation and make land claims or independency.

3. Tourists will consider alternatives.

 

worst case would be that Thailand in future will be Greater Bangkok area.

Isaan all of east and northeast - minus what Cambodia would claim.

North and some west will be taken by Burma  or be indepandent in a new Kareen Kingdom.

South speaks for it self.

 

thats my worst case senario.

[Thai at Heart]

 

 

I hope that Thaksin doesn't come back, but the fact that the new leaders are mostly part of the Suthep camp and that mainly red-shirt leaders are the ones blamed for all the deaths and injuries, clearly shows that the army is not a neutral player (and never was).
 
They are clearly preparing a "democracy???" in which one side (the red shirt side) can never win again.

 
 Brilliant news!!!
 
 Eliminate Thaksin/Yingluck and their cronies with all the damage that they have caused, from Thai life for the betterment of Thailand and it's people.
 
 I have to say that what General Prayuth has done to date exceeds all of my expectations and statues of him shouldn't be too far off as he has radically changed the whole substance of Thai life in a few short months. I even agree with what he has done with the press and media.

You think this is going to put the genie back in the bottle. Banning Thaksin and insisting that Thailand go back to some rose tinted era isn't going to be enough.


There are some murmurs of reform, pensions for farmers and even a land tax. But really there are still at least 10mn farmers living not much more than hand to mouth.

So let's see how far this reform goes because trying to eradicate Thaksin without replacing him with something or someone else isn't going to work.
 

 
 Yes!! removing every semblance of Thaksinism will promote all Thai's wellbeing and moving forward (not backwards) will get Thailand back on it's feet again, just in time for ASEAN.
 
 Ask yourself just why 10 million farmers are having to eek out a living in order to care for their family, even to survive - general Prayuth has eradicated the Shinawatra's from peoples lives and given them hope. It is PRECISELY the medicine that was needed and will bare much fruit.
 
 He is doing an outstandingly good job in seemingly impossible circumstances and he has my utmost respect and thanks for what he is/doing/has done!! I just hope that he stands for PM as he must be the biggest shoe-in going and deserves his chance to continue improving the lives of Thais and good fortune of Thailand!!.
 
 Viva Prayuth, saviour of the LOS (the smiles will return to their faces) - I hope that Thaksin rots in hell and Yingluck accompanies 'dear brother'!!

They have been feeling out an existence for decades. Love it or loathe it, Thaksin had the love of the poor and the farmers.


You are incredibly naive. I await to see what the junta and presumably the democrats come up with to truly benefit the poor. They have been trying for many decades and not really achieved very much at all.

[khunken]

Which all mean nothing to farangs who are constantly leaping up and down about Thai politics when they have ZERO say or input in the outcomes.

But they do love to wave their banners proclaiming the world is a better place well I've not noticed a single thing that is different for me or my family in the 2 years I've been living here and I doubt Anyone else has seen much impact either.
If anything there's a purge against farangs regarding visa issues and work permits etc that includes all NON Thais good thing or not is yet to be decided but there will be tougher and more stringent control methods against farangs in the coming months and many people will be worrying about their quint little life they have.

I couldn't care a monkeys about Thaksin or Suthep but I want my family to start benefiting the change in the regime and not to be pushed out of the way!!!

 

Actually it does mean something to Farangs. Yes, we have no input, but if the junta can reduce the level of corruption (even just a little) it will help Farangs. Less extortion by the BIB for drivers, businesses, maintain the current level of VAT, not increase (reduce would be great) excise taxes, make the roads safer from drugged, drunk or inexperienced drivers..... and so on.

 

I've lived here for over 18 years and have definitely noticed negative facets in the last 2 years. The cost of food has substantially increased, beer and cigarettes have been upped, BTS fares have gone up, and beggars on the streets around where I live have multiplied. Also the economy took a disastrous double dip last year (technical recession) which didn't help.

 

That's just what affected me. But I have Thai friends and the current safety levels in Bangkok for them has dramatically increased in the last 2 months. BTW they are also affected with the same things as me.

 

The tougher controls on Farangs & other residents & visitors is purely an enforcement of existing laws for those legally here and only increases punishment for the system abusers and illegals.

 

I've no idea who is pushing your family out of the way but the Op is purely about an interim administration which is being criticised because it has deliberately excluded the Thaksin lackeys as though the ones who brought on the recent crisis are the ones to get the country moving forward again.
 

[Fat Haggis]

Jamie my family we're NEVER under threat of these terrorist attacks as they have been limited to isolated areas within Bangkok.
Three has been no change to the daily lives in the past 3 months that was any different to what it was 2 years ago when I first arrived. Howany terrorist attacks occurred in Khon Kaen in the past 12 months? I'm willing to bet you and your family life was no different throughout the entire protest period, In all the areas apart from Bangkok that I travelled to it was business as normal and daily life was NO different mate, 95% of Thailand was never affected by the protests or the violence that went with it.

Tourism I believe is still down