Just got offered a teaching job in Bangkok... Help?

[jacksam]

I thought that there was a rule on this forum that prohibited to promote, encourage or even talk about illegal activities.

So far I have seen several replies, including one from a administrator, that advise the OP to take the job if it suits him, knowing that the job he was offered is illegal because there will be no workpermit provided.

Do I miss something?

AGREE 100% ....As I stated earlier....I replied to an OP in a visa forum. A bloke had his wife visa application rejected. This was because she disclosed years ago she worked in a massage joint. I suggested that she should not have mentioned it and to bend the truth. i.e lie.

My post was removed on grounds that thai visa will not allow posts that suggest breaking the law. Esp to immigration.

Here is an OP that openly suggests this very thing and has many posts in support. Whats up with the moderators.

Its starting to sound like immigration officers. Depends who you get on the day

[JesseFrank]

Perhaps you think you are in the Germanvisa or USAvisa website????

Last time I checked the window we are still in Thailand.

I thought that there was a rule on this forum that prohibited to promote, encourage or even talk about illegal activities.

So far I have seen several replies, including one from a administrator, that advise the OP to take the job if it suits him, knowing that the job he was offered is illegal because there will be no workpermit provided.

Do I miss something?

Do you mind to clarify your comment ?

Last time I checked a workpermit was required to work in Thailand, and there has recently a lot noise from the government that they will be very strict on this especially regarding teachers, where the OP clearly post that no work permit will be available to him.

[jacksam]

The OP is a troll. No one is this clueless. I love the way some folks talk about being or becoming " english teachers " . They rarely talk about their previous occupation in homeland.

A bloke in Vietnam comes to mind. He was having a beer on way to work. Mentioned he was a teacher!!. Told me he did his TEEFL ONLINE. I should note that he said he worked " very hard " at it. The qualification took two weeks.

Please anyone working here as a teacher do not call yourself teachers.

I did an honours degree at Melbourne university and years later, due to family reasons, wanted to teah math. Needed to do a furtherone year full time for what we call a diploma of education.

People that do this are TEACHERS. Don't kid yourself with rubbish qualifications. In Australia, teachers would not work with unqualified people. Especially like the OP who openly states first option was to break thai law. Work without working permit. Surprised the moderators let this one through. Along with many posts encouraging OP to do exactly that.

Good for you.

You are then in fact a subject teacher. And I agree that subject teachers SHOULD have degrees or extensive experience in the field that they teach.

We are talking about TEFL teachers, those that teach conversation .. teach conversation.

In Australia, UK and some parts of the USA the same teachers also do NOT require a degree for this language teaching.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Please tell me casualbiker......where specifically in Australia would I find a " english conversation teacher"

In secondary schools we have what's called ESL teachers. Of course these teachers have done a degree and one full time year teacher training. In addition every teacher must have a working with children clearance. Every year teachers are required to renew their teacher registration.

My point is this. I would not call myself a teacher if all I possess is a coupon ticket.

[casualbiker]

The OP is a troll. No one is this clueless. I love the way some folks talk about being or becoming " english teachers " . They rarely talk about their previous occupation in homeland.

A bloke in Vietnam comes to mind. He was having a beer on way to work. Mentioned he was a teacher!!. Told me he did his TEEFL ONLINE. I should note that he said he worked " very hard " at it. The qualification took two weeks.

Please anyone working here as a teacher do not call yourself teachers.

I did an honours degree at Melbourne university and years later, due to family reasons, wanted to teah math. Needed to do a furtherone year full time for what we call a diploma of education.

People that do this are TEACHERS. Don't kid yourself with rubbish qualifications. In Australia, teachers would not work with unqualified people. Especially like the OP who openly states first option was to break thai law. Work without working permit. Surprised the moderators let this one through. Along with many posts encouraging OP to do exactly that.

Good for you.

You are then in fact a subject teacher. And I agree that subject teachers SHOULD have degrees or extensive experience in the field that they teach.

We are talking about TEFL teachers, those that teach conversation .. teach conversation.

In Australia, UK and some parts of the USA the same teachers also do NOT require a degree for this language teaching.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Please tell me casualbiker......where specifically in Australia would I find a " english conversation teacher"

In secondary schools we have what's called ESL teachers. Of course these teachers have done a degree and one full time year teacher training. In addition every teacher must have a working with children clearance. Every year teachers are required to renew their teacher registration.

My point is this. I would not call myself a teacher if all I possess is a coupon ticket.

Did I mention secondary school .. nope. TEFL teaching at language schools in the countries mentioned do NOT require degrees.

You actually have ESL teachers in Australian secondary schools. Really! Why?

I am referring to ESL teachers only. Conversation teachers. Speak and listen teachers. Not subject teachers.

Question:

Would you categorize an English language teacher as some one who actually speaks and reads English to an acceptable level?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Maroon Watcher]

... are you on the look-out for German Gay bloke? (I don't know any)

Does anyone care besides you that you are all tall blonde and fit?

[zeichen]

casual biker. You are right at private language schools in the US, England and Australia as well as many others do not require a degree to teach ESL. However, to teach ESL at primary and secondary schools, you do need a teacher's license. A 120 hour TEFL/CELTA just doesn't cut it.

We are not talking about language schools or Universities which do not require a teacher's license here. But at primary and secondary schools a teacher's license is now required.

The OP is talking about International Schools and a top tier one at that. They do not hire non degreed TEFL conversation puppets. At low tiered where they accept all students regardless of language ability at top schools there are many native speakers who probably know as much as this young hot stud wantabee.

Though I will not dismiss the legalities of working without a work permit and be so cavalier as Bruce but I will echo that others are scaremongering. It really isn't a big deal to get a job without a work permit. Most jobs won't get you one at all if you are hired mid semester. However the issue is that things are cracking down now and it is harder to get visas and re-entry multiple times without proper visas and work permits.

The issue that I have with working without a workpermit or proper visa is that you are not protected by the school. There is no gaurantee that you will be paid, recontracted, health insurance, etc. Getting deported wouldn't be an issue and really doesn't happen. Don't you think that it would be reported in Thai newspapers? In 15 years of being here I have never heard, read or known anyone that has been deported in CM. I am connected with about 8 different schools here and have friends who work at over 15 different schools. Deportation just doesn't happen for working without a work permit. Fines yes, holding tank overnight yes. Persona non grata Never.

[LucidLucifer]

Question:

Would you categorize an English language teacher as some one who actually speaks and reads English to an acceptable level?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No I would not. I would categorise them as exactly as they are - someone who can speak and read English to an acceptable level. Just because you can do that does not make you qualified to teach. Do you not understand that teaching is a skill that in itself needs to be taught and practised, and even then there is no guarantee you will be good? Quite frankly, to think otherwise shows a clear lack of knowledge of what quality teaching and learning is.

[zeichen]

Bruce "

None of my professors in my BS (Economics and International Relations) or MBA had a teaching qualification.

Apparently I am doomed."

I do hope that they didn't just have a high school diploma. Or perhaps you are doomed.

I also assume that by the time you were in University you had already learned the study skills that allowed you to b be a successful student. Professors are not qualified teachers and often just use lecture based methodology to introduce material. If you taught primary or secondary students subjects or even as an EFL teacher, that lecture methodology isn't as effective. I love lectures as they are often the fastest way to get information however because I had good teachers that taught me study skills and different approaches to learn information. I take the information from the lectures and on my own do activities that help me retain that knowledge.

As a primary or secondary teacher your job isn't just inputting knowledge but introducing study skills and learning strategies that they can continue to do for the rest of their life. These are things that you learn from studying education. Though I believe any educated person can self study and learn all of these educational theories and practices, it is safer for schools and the deparment of education to require degrees in education.

[brucetefl]

So?

They are professional teachers who do not have any training in how to teach. But they are very familiar with the subject matter. And they teach because they know the subject matter.

A native English speaker is like someone with a Masters degree in speaking and listening in English (I would not go so far as to say they are PhD). Give a native speaker a TESOL certificate and they are already better prepared to teach than any of my university professors.

And native ESL teachers in Thai schools should be supervised and supported by the Thai "professional" teachers who have degrees in Education. They go in, teach a class with the curriculum provided, and leave. They should not be responsible for anything else.

Bruce "

None of my professors in my BS (Economics and International Relations) or MBA had a teaching qualification.

Apparently I am doomed."

I do hope that they didn't just have a high school diploma. Or perhaps you are doomed.

I also assume that by the time you were in University you had already learned the study skills that allowed you to b be a successful student. Professors are not qualified teachers and often just use lecture based methodology to introduce material. If you taught primary or secondary students subjects or even as an EFL teacher, that lecture methodology isn't as effective. I love lectures as they are often the fastest way to get information however because I had good teachers that taught me study skills and different approaches to learn information. I take the information from the lectures and on my own do activities that help me retain that knowledge.

As a primary or secondary teacher your job isn't just inputting knowledge but introducing study skills and learning strategies that they can continue to do for the rest of their life. These are things that you learn from studying education. Though I believe any educated person can self study and learn all of these educational theories and practices, it is safer for schools and the deparment of education to require degrees in education.

[Bigfarang1948]

Does anyone care besides you that you are all tall blonde and fit?

And you can't make up your own mind about taking this job? Tall, blond and fit is not a player...Blonde said it all

[KhnomKhnom]

No degree, no work permit, and what visa do you intend to stay on whilst you're here?

Visa/border runs are a thing of the past in Thailand - it might have been mentioned once or twice in the news over the past month or so!

30k is about as good as it will get without a degree.

I don't mean to be rude but non-degree holders without WP, visa etc are exactly the people the authorities are looking to get rid of here.

Check these links:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/748220-holiday-in-thailand-could-end-for-expats/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/725773-immigration-boss-confirms-the-out-in-visa-run-is-dead/

Check this one in particular: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/743467-visa-crackdown-is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-unqualified-esl-teachers-in-thailand/

That is about all you can anticipate per month salary. However, if you have no WP, the question of salary is moot.

[Bigfarang1948]

Does anyone care besides you that you are all tall blonde and fit?

And you can't make up your own mind about taking this job? Tall, blond and fit is not a player...Blonde said it all

[Ridler]

A top international school in Bangkok is paying 30,000 Baht? I doubt it is so 'top'. In Pattaya the international schools demand a teaching degree and pay salaries equal to schools in the UK.

If it was any decent school you would be nowhere near it. Sorry, but that is the truth

Another thing, if you are only getting thirty thousand, who else is getting the rest of the money?

[gemguy]

I am as usual amazed by the amount of misinfo posted. To say that very few people are caught is entirely incorrect - at the school where my wife works five teachers were caught and instantly deported and in another school in the same town all the teachers who did not have degrees were told to leave so................as for this salary - for your qualifications it's all you'll get but you could'nt live in bangkok for that unless your girlfriend is supporting you. I know loads of teachers in Bangkok and none of them earn less than 50 and most 75 with privates.

If you really want to teach go get a degree, then you can get a work permit and a good salary. You may have worked illegally for the last two years but I got to tell you , kiddo, those days are over. You will see inspections, raids and all sorts starting very soon and you'll be caught for sure. Don't be a mug -get legal before it's too late and they deport , fine you and refuse you reentry forever -that's my advice anyway. if you don't believe me start really reading this form and if yoyr'e very bright you may notice that in the last two weeks the tide has completely changed.

As I have always said it is up to the Employer to do their part first to arrange the required documentation to obtain the proper Visa and Work Permit and the yearly Extension.

The fact that thousands of people have worked as teachers without the proper immigration status or work permit tells you that the over whelming majority of them, at one time or another, have worked without the proper immigration status or the work permit while the employer did not care as it saved them money and the effort of having to do their part first.

Obviously the employers were never concerned about violating their own laws while accommodating the foreigner.

So the correct terminology is: Knowingly complicit.

However when the authorities do come around ( sometimes ) the Thais do not have a problem rather the foreigner is blamed and held accountable.

Point is.... you can not obtain the Visa and or the Work Permit or the Extension unless the Thai company provides the required documentation.

Because they commonly did not do their part first the majority of the foreigners could not to their part and obtain the proper visa or work permit or extension.

So yes...blame it on the Thais more so than the foreigners.

But as expected the Thais will blame the foreigner in every respect while the Thai owners of the companies make like they did nothing wrong at all.

[duanebigsby]

Bruce "

None of my professors in my BS (Economics and International Relations) or MBA had a teaching qualification.

Apparently I am doomed."

I do hope that they didn't just have a high school diploma. Or perhaps you are doomed.

I also assume that by the time you were in University you had already learned the study skills that allowed you to b be a successful student. Professors are not qualified teachers and often just use lecture based methodology to introduce material. If you taught primary or secondary students subjects or even as an EFL teacher, that lecture methodology isn't as effective. I love lectures as they are often the fastest way to get information however because I had good teachers that taught me study skills and different approaches to learn information. I take the information from the lectures and on my own do activities that help me retain that knowledge.

As a primary or secondary teacher your job isn't just inputting knowledge but introducing study skills and learning strategies that they can continue to do for the rest of their life. These are things that you learn from studying education. Though I believe any educated person can self study and learn all of these educational theories and practices, it is safer for schools and the deparment of education to require degrees in education.

If Thailand requires BEd's, English education will be done only by very few NES and mostly Pilipino, many whose English is heavily accented and subpar, many whose English is fine.

The proficiency in English will plummet.

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The term "International" school is like the term "Bar". It entices some Thai's who have no knowledge of what a real International school and for that matter, costs. When you see "Bar" you assume you will have to pay more than retail. The point remains, some unknowing people are lead around and end up getting ripped off. It's no different than the marketing ploy tried on this very site with the "University" degrees etc.. Bottom line, "real" International schools don't hire unqualified people and girlfriends who drive late model Mercedes are not "different", just older than the boyfriend. Ladies have "kiks" also, rich ladies.

+1

Graduated from an international school, I can be considered an insider. What you have said is totally true. Just for fun, I typed "international schools in Thailand". On that first page alone, I only saw 1 "real" international school. But that isn't even in the top 5. It's what we "insiders" commonly refer to as one of the worst. BUT, atleast we admit it as a real international school. Wow... the search results...they even go as far to have rankings, with fake international schools amongst the top HAHAHAHA

With my google experience, TO THE OP, I understand why you thought you got recruited to "the top international schools".

For those really interested and genuinely want to know the real international schools.

Simply get in touch with any high school students of ISB or RIS, and ask them who their rival schools are. These small close group of real international schools occasionally invite each other for competition, be it basketball, soccer, talent show, quizzes which test intelligence, etc.

I'm sure they wouldn't invite a "fake international school".

Cheers.

[Tony125]

I can honestly say that, from his few posts here, the OP comes across as an "unqualified, spoiled, punk kid" but its also true that most of the rest of you come across as bitter, angry old men.

Right?

And the attacks continue.

Whats wrong with just answering the guys question and letting him make his own life decisions.

Its not like you are this dude's mommy!

Thank Buddha.

Personally, I would like to know the school is only hiring educated teachers who are qualified to teach my kids, not some kid who feels entitled to stay in Thailand because his girlfriend has a family member in the school. It's about having decent teachers, not unqualified, spoiled, punk kids.

If you're referring to me, I'm hardly bitter. I would, however, like to see the Thai school system hire someone qualified. Apparently this matters very little to you. Lemme guess....you teach, you have a TEFL, but no degree?

" If you're referring to me, I'm hardly bitter." Really Scott? Notice any "likes" posted on yor comments? Sure the OP sounded a little full of himself but as you know in Thailand looks do mean a lot. Young well groomed, professional looking guy, vs young long haired back pack looking "hippie' vs Old (60+) short wearing expat looking guy---who would get the job? And he didn't ask about any help with a visa , maybe he's going to marry the G/F so will be able to stay because of marriage..

We took our neice to her 1st day of school (not BKK) and she introduced herself to her teacher in perfect English. Teacher asked "who taught you" she said " my uncle"

Later were told by my sister-in-law that they wanted to know if I wanted a job --reason both her teacher and Pinay aid spoke English badly so i guessed they wanted me to be like a teacher's assistant to help with pronounciation and grammar. Probably same thing OP's G/F wants him to do there just to give him something to do and extra spending money. He already mentioned he did not need cash for ticket home ect.

And your remark to the other poster about "would you want him teaching your kids" I would let him as a TEFL teacher or teachers aid rather than a Thai or other NES who could not pronounce correctly yet was certified as a teacher.

[kurnell]

Some people like it and are good at it, some are not. To each their own.

Why does everyone teach English??

Because it's a job we can do.

It's rewarding and a way to further our interaction with Thai people.

I could sit in the bar all day but I'd go stir crazy.

Teaching would send me crazy

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[duanebigsby]

Some people like it and are good at it, some are not. To each their own.

Why does everyone teach English??

Because it's a job we can do.

It's rewarding and a way to further our interaction with Thai people.

I could sit in the bar all day but I'd go stir crazy.

Teaching would send me crazy

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It would drive a lot of people crazy LOL!

But it can be rewarding and fun and many of us enjoy it.

If it's not for you fine, don't teach.

But please don't take the pi$$ out of us who do.(tongue in cheek)

[metisdead]

A post commenting on moderation has been removed.

A post containing a link to Bangkok Post has been removed:

26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.

[MILT]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Wow, this topic has spiraled out of control really quickly... What HiSo part of Thailand are you guys from? I would love to visit... It sounds like America... Land of the free and where everyone follows the rules.

Are you guys even in Thailand??? I have been here 2+ years and I see rule breaking on EVERY level. Are you trying to tell me international schools wont hire someone without a degree? Wow, I hate to burst your bubble....

As for my GF, not sure what type of girls you guys like dating, I'm sure they are really high quality girls by the sound of it. Maybe I should start looking in the bars and online for a girlfriend like you guys so I can support them and their families with my low teaching salary.... Nah, I'll stick to my girl who's driving a Mercedes and spends the equivalent of your girlfriends (and her families) monthly stipend at Central in 15 minutes.

Also not sure how I got labeled as a backpacker, or looking to make money for a plane ticket home. Get off your high horses.

OMG hes young and doesn't have a degree!!!! Lets label him the worst person in Thailand!!!

Now hold on there cowboy! You got to watch out for the sidewinders and cowhoots on this here forum.

Just one question this varmit has for you is why would you need to ask if 30k is a good salary, when you better half drives a benz

and can spend your salary shopping in 15? and her daddy works there? Don't mean to burst your bubble but Mercedes suck anyways.

I think your girl friend should give you the benz and she should go out and get a Beamer.

Seriously though I think you picked the wrong forum. 2 years in Thailand means your still a rooky rookie!

[casualbiker]

Question:

Would you categorize an English language teacher as some one who actually speaks and reads English to an acceptable level?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No I would not. I would categorise them as exactly as they are - someone who can speak and read English to an acceptable level. Just because you can do that does not make you qualified to teach. Do you not understand that teaching is a skill that in itself needs to be taught and practised, and even then there is no guarantee you will be good? Quite frankly, to think otherwise shows a clear lack of knowledge of what quality teaching and learning is.

My point is that many Thai English teachers cannot speak,read or communicate in English. To think that they can then successfully teach it shows a clear lack of knowledge of ESL teaching and learning in Thailand!

The TEFL teachers in Thailand are the conversation part of that ESL teaching. The Thai teacher the grammar part.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[BadBouy]

What is your qualifications?

That is really ok?

Glad I got out of teaching.

Parents nationwide agree

[JAFO]

Sheeese. Really? Another one of these good looking fit. Tall hansum young guys with rose colored glasses on and full of himself with a Thai GF with comnections 555. These never get old.

Anyway from my understanding you cant work at a "Top University" without credentials.

Someone posted earlier. This type of person is exactly what Thailand is trying to rid themselves of along with sleeze ball overstaying illegal business owners.

Anyway good luck

[sead]

The problem with no WP is that the school can ask you to do some free time teachings. They can lower your salary and threaten that if you dont accept they just call immigration. And you would be hurt this time with the new rules. Even students parents can threaten you. Now i just tell what i know but there must be 100 things more that are negative without WP

[zeichen]

"And native ESL teachers in Thai schools should be supervised and supported by the Thai "professional" teachers who have degrees in Education. They go in, teach a class with the curriculum provided, and leave. They should not be responsible for anything else. "

100 % agree. Should but unfortunately aren't.

[retarius]

Tall, athletic looking, handsome and poor as a church mouse on 30K a month with 5 paid holidays a year....wow 5 days a year....why not 'take your talents' and film star looks to Cambodia where you can earn even less and be even poorer?

You sound like an immature boy who should go home to his mommy.

[brucetefl]

Instead of trying to magically find native speakers who are qualified to be full teachers, not an easy task, why not get the Thai teachers to do their jobs?

"And native ESL teachers in Thai schools should be supervised and supported by the Thai "professional" teachers who have degrees in Education. They go in, teach a class with the curriculum provided, and leave. They should not be responsible for anything else. "

100 % agree. Should but unfortunately aren't.

[duanebigsby]

"And native ESL teachers in Thai schools should be supervised and supported by the Thai "professional" teachers who have degrees in Education. They go in, teach a class with the curriculum provided, and leave. They should not be responsible for anything else. "

100 % agree. Should but unfortunately aren't.

I 100% disagree. Have you seen the dry crap, grammar heavy curriculum the Thai teachers are dishing out?

Quickest way to turn someone off learning a new language ever!

You don't learn to speak a language by dissecting it's grammar. You converse, you role play, you talk to kids, you make it fun.

[ScottMallon]

I can honestly say that, from his few posts here, the OP comes across as an "unqualified, spoiled, punk kid" but its also true that most of the rest of you come across as bitter, angry old men.

Right?

Thank Buddha.

Personally, I would like to know the school is only hiring educated teachers who are qualified to teach my kids, not some kid who feels entitled to stay in Thailand because his girlfriend has a family member in the school. It's about having decent teachers, not unqualified, spoiled, punk kids.

If you're referring to me, I'm hardly bitter. I would, however, like to see the Thai school system hire someone qualified. Apparently this matters very little to you. Lemme guess....you teach, you have a TEFL, but no degree?

" If you're referring to me, I'm hardly bitter." Really Scott? Notice any "likes" posted on yor comments? Sure the OP sounded a little full of himself but as you know in Thailand looks do mean a lot. Young well groomed, professional looking guy, vs young long haired back pack looking "hippie' vs Old (60+) short wearing expat looking guy---who would get the job? And he didn't ask about any help with a visa , maybe he's going to marry the G/F so will be able to stay because of marriage..

We took our neice to her 1st day of school (not BKK) and she introduced herself to her teacher in perfect English. Teacher asked "who taught you" she said " my uncle"

Later were told by my sister-in-law that they wanted to know if I wanted a job --reason both her teacher and Pinay aid spoke English badly so i guessed they wanted me to be like a teacher's assistant to help with pronounciation and grammar. Probably same thing OP's G/F wants him to do there just to give him something to do and extra spending money. He already mentioned he did not need cash for ticket home ect.

And your remark to the other poster about "would you want him teaching your kids" I would let him as a TEFL teacher or teachers aid rather than a Thai or other NES who could not pronounce correctly yet was certified as a teacher.

Well Tony, there are 7 likes and the post is now POPULAR, imagine that.

Bottom line - the guy has no degree, is illegal, is not a teacher, and has no business teaching in a school. Your logic is so skewed it's ridiculous. Just because someone isn't vain enough to declare himself, "young, fit, and handsome," or someone else isn't drooling over their good looks, doesn't mean the other teachers are young hippies or old, short wearing expats.

Regardless of this guy and how unqualified he is, Thai schools need real teachers. This means they need to pay real money but first, it means getting rid of all the fly by night, wanna be teachers and visa mills. In my opinion, that's what this guy probably is. Do you seriously believe he came to Thailand because he wants to teach children and make a difference in their lives? Please...wake up bucko.

You're entitled to your opinion though, no matter how misguided and illogical it is.

Edited August 9, 2014 by ScottMallon