One for you mechanical engineers and/or suspension experts

[JAS21]

My wife bought her Mazda Lantis 1.8 new In I995. It's now done 245,000Kms. It had a 2nd hand engine (from Japan) fitted a few years ago and recently had a complete top end overhaul. Also in the past the struts were replaced with 2nd hand units from Japan again. . Apparently you can't get strut inserts for this vehicle.

The front and rear suspension units have just been changed along with some of the suspension rubbers, reasonable quality stuff but not from Mazda as Madza prices are outrageous. The springs weren't changed. The work was done by a guy who in the past has always done good work. He did take the car to get the tracking done. Driving it, feels like the castor angle is okay.

The ride is hard, fine on the tollway until you hit a bump, you can't dip the front of the vehicle at all. I can't remember if of you could before though. My wife talked to an independent suspension shop he basically said you can't expect to get anywhere near 'new car feel' unless you change all the suspension and all the rubbers and fit quality tyres.

It has been suggested to replace the springs ... like for like. I didn't think springs wore out, they might shorten a bit but the 'rate' would stay the same? The ride height looks okay to me... see pic

I know that at nearly 20 years old it should maybe be recycled but she wants to keep the car. Unfortunately it doesn't have quality tyres as step-daughter uses it now and fitted some not that brilliant ones. Michelin Primacy have been suggested. Recommended tyre pressure is 31psi .. I might drop it down to say 29psi and see if any better for the short term.

Comments from those who know about suspension please.

[WarpSpeed]

This is going to be contentious. Springs do lose rate eventually but not likely the cause, the guy who said new car ride is correct. Lantis is FWD so no castor adjustments to be made. It is a good little car, no reason to junk it. hard to diagnose what your issue is as you never really described what it is that is your concern?

Is it handling? Merely hard ride? Pulling to one side? Clunking? etc.. Why was inserts changed and not just an entire shock/strut replaced instead? In fact on second thought how was insert changed on a sealed OEM strut? They must have replaced the entire strut but with what second hand OEM garbage? There had to be some better after market replacement available then using an OEM second hand strut. A host of questions surround this.

[seedy]

From Wiki -

The Mazda Lantis is a series of two cars sold in Japan from 1993 to 1996. In the rest of the world it was also known as 323F, Astina, Allegro Hatchback or Artis Hatchback.

Any of these models sold in Thailand ? If so, parts should interchange.

Very hard to diagnose on an internet forum. Someone with knowledge will have to drive the car and/or static test to make a recommendation.

Sounds - as a glance - that the lack of suspension movement when hitting a bump on the tollway may be caused by too much compression damping, or the strut is binding in its travel some way. Maybe isolators worn out and no compliance.

[JAS21]

This is going to be contentious. Springs do lose rate eventually but not likely the cause, the guy who said new car ride is correct. Lantis is FWD so no castor adjustments to be made. It is a good little car, no reason to junk it. hard to diagnose what your issue is as you never really described what it is that is your concern?

Is it handling? Merely hard ride? Pulling to one side? Clunking? etc.. Why was inserts changed and not just an entire shock/strut replaced instead? In fact on second thought how was insert changed on a sealed OEM strut? They must have replaced the entire strut but with what second hand OEM garbage? There had to be some better after market replacement available then using an OEM second hand strut. A host of questions surround this.

Warpee ... thanks for a quick reply ... maybe I wasn't quite clear ....

The full strut has just been replaced with new OEM but using the old springs, new rubber at the top of the strut etc. The ride is just too firm, much firmer than when I first knew the car some twelve years ago. It handles well! When you hit a bump, no clunks or clonks just a thud! On a smooth road it's a really lovely ride.

As I said I can't dip the front but I can the rear.

I'll have to jack it up and see what is written on the shock absorber. The guy did know that we wanted something decent fitting...He did a good job on the top end overhaul, engine sounds nice ... actually I'll get my wife to get the info off him if she can. Thanks

[transam]

Just a thought, there could be a rubber bump stop that your compressed spring is hitting, or lack of one, have a look, see if it fitted correctly. Or, perhaps the shock is naff. Push the front wing up and down and feel for resistance and NO bounce.

[WarpSpeed]

Looking at your jpeg it may not be the right application of shock, the spring may be compressed already while the shock is at maximum height so therefore little distance for compression and no rebound height. That would not necessarily change your ride height much if at all, just the amount of compression it requires to compress the spring and the amount of rebound allowed when rebounding after compressing. If I had to guess here on the forum and I have no other way to do so I'd say they are the wrong application (too short) for whatever reason based on what you've said.

[WarpSpeed]

Just a thought, there could be a rubber bump stop that your compressed spring is hitting, or lack of one, have a look, see if it fitted correctly. Or, perhaps the shock is naff. Push the front wing up and down and feel for resistance and NO bounce.

Wing? It's a car not an airplane... OP push down on the front fender.. But seems you've done that already...

[WarpSpeed]

From Wiki -

The Mazda Lantis is a series of two cars sold in Japan from 1993 to 1996. In the rest of the world it was also known as 323F, Astina, Allegro Hatchback or Artis Hatchback.

Any of these models sold in Thailand ? If so, parts should interchange.

Very hard to diagnose on an internet forum. Someone with knowledge will have to drive the car and/or static test to make a recommendation.

Sounds - as a glance - that the lack of suspension movement when hitting a bump on the tollway may be caused by too much compression damping, or the strut is binding in its travel some way. Maybe isolators worn out and no compliance.

Definitely 323f's and Astina's available, I was going to buy one and convert it to a rotary since it was FWD and make it into a race car being it was all still Mazda and perfect application for a rotary, never got around to it as I wanted to build a 3 rotor 20b instead but there would have to have been too many chassis mods required to make it fit properly. Was hoping to have a light car with big power and FWD with smooth power application and lower torque to prevent wheel spin while having a motor that rotated in the direction as the cars movement so as to reduce even more power loss through transfer.

[Zeegator]

Just a thought, there could be a rubber bump stop that your compressed spring is hitting, or lack of one, have a look, see if it fitted correctly. Or, perhaps the shock is naff. Push the front wing up and down and feel for resistance and NO bounce.

Wing? It's a car not an airplane... OP push down on the front fender.. But seems you've done that already...

Fender? Don't think these had bumpers that you could push down on without them detaching from the body. Best to push down on the wing.

Seriously, the perceived hard ride could be the normal ride, if the poster first experienced this car 10 years ago it would have been 10 years old at that time. Perhaps the dampers were shot then, giving a very soft (undamped) ride compared to what it should have been?

[transam]

Just a thought, there could be a rubber bump stop that your compressed spring is hitting, or lack of one, have a look, see if it fitted correctly. Or, perhaps the shock is naff. Push the front wing up and down and feel for resistance and NO bounce.

Wing? It's a car not an airplane... OP push down on the front fender.. But seems you've done that already...

Where I come from they are called a wing, a hood is a bonnet, a trunk is a boot, a muffler is a silencer, a hedder is a manifold, a shock is a damper, gas is petrol, sorry if you didn't know that stuff...

OOOOP's near forgot, a fender is something we put in front of a fire......

[JAS21]

Okay guys ...here are some pics

Make

Pt Number Front BC1E-34-700

Suspension Fr

Spring Front

Tyre

Part No Rear BC1E-28-700

To me the Front Spring looks new.

As before I can't dip the front ... just can't get any movement .. afraid of denting the front wing!! Rear dips okay and no bounce at all ... just a sit should be.

I've had a small go at google but it doesn't bring anything up on the part No but going to the RICCO site these shocks are for the 323 Astina whatever that is.

If anyone can find anything out please advise

All the tyres are the same make/type. Yep, I know the wheel hole looks a bit big ... could have run loose at some time ... however both rears and the spare look to have about the same size holes.

[Kwasaki]

No expert only a part DIY'er now.

Front wheel drive cars are very stiff in the front with little up or down movement, the shocks you have had fitted maybe uprated and seem different to you from the others that were obviously worn out.

Many different type of shocks are available in all makes.

Get someone to drive the car and see what they think.

[arthurwait]

Was the engine swapped like for like of was a later all alloy one (if there was one) used to replace an iron block ?

[arthurwait]

Allegro.

Anyway just re read has this just happened since the new struts where fitted ? Maybe they just need to wear in a bit if so.

Maybe your springs have 'sagged', but looking at the ride height at the front it looks to be the opposite.

Is this the first time the struts have been changed in 12 years ?

[JAS21]

Was the engine swapped like for like of was a later all alloy one (if there was one) used to replace an iron block ?

That's a good point ... but no it is a cast iron block with alloy head and that's the same as original. The parts that have been fitted are for an Astina according to RICCO web site. Finding if those Astina and Lantis parts are interchangeable is a problem. I think L:antis bits are in limited supply.

The springs look new! see photo... he showed me the parts that came off and I can't remember if springs were there or not (he changed the power steering rack as well and a few other little jobs .. he says same springs re-fitted. I'll get my wife to phone RICCO tomorrow and find the price and compatability... she was charged 15000Baht for the four units. 7500 for the front and 7500 for the rear. I assume that he got around a 30% discount on those prices.

In the past this guy has been very honest and good ... He did a clever job fitting the LPG system a few years ago ... it's just disappointing that the ride is so firm now. Maybe I'll let 2-3 psi out of the tyres and see!

Anyone know where in the hard/soft ride Goodyear Duraplus fit ... they still have plenty of tread left.

[arthurwait]

Ahhh LPG tanks weight in the back that wasn't there 12 years ago ?

Less weight on the front now, for the new dampers to handle ?

Edit: Does the front ride height look higher now than before the strut replacement ?

[transam]

Ahhh LPG tanks weight in the back that wasn't there 12 years ago ?

Less weight on the front now, for the new dampers to handle ?

Edit: Does the front ride height look higher now than before the strut replacement ?

Why less weight at the front...?

[arthurwait]

Ahhh LPG tanks weight in the back that wasn't there 12 years ago ?

Less weight on the front now, for the new dampers to handle ?

Edit: Does the front ride height look higher now than before the strut replacement ?

Why less weight at the front...?

Sorry should say less of the weight distribution.

[arthurwait]

I'm confusing myself now.

[JAS21]

Allegro.

Anyway just re read has this just happened since the new struts where fitted ? Maybe they just need to wear in a bit if so.

Maybe your springs have 'sagged', but looking at the ride height at the front it looks to be the opposite.

Is this the first time the struts have been changed in 12 years ?

No, it's a 1995 car. Mazda fitted some 2nd hand ones all round in about 2007 and the rears were done the same again by another garage about 2-3 year ago. In the past she has always been told to fit 2nd hand Japanese parts in preference to new after market parts.

My wife has to translate everything for me and some of the technical bits on the engine/gearbox/suspension can, at times be a problem. I really sympathise with those who's wife's command of English is not that good.

[JAS21]

I'm confusing myself now.

No, after it was gassed, we went to Phuket and back in it ... the ride wasn't firm like now.

Sorry Mr Seedy ... I didn't fully read your comment which said that Lantis and Astina were basically the same ... he car was a Japanese import,

[arthurwait]

If you calculate moments about the rear wheels the tank will be more weight therefore force behind the rear wheel, moments are equal, distance to front wheels/struts stays the same therefore force/weight on the front wheels will be less.

After 2 weeks of no sleep due to hand, foot and mouth my brain isn't working, but I think that's right.

[arthurwait]

I'd give it a few weeks to see if they just need to wear in.

Edit: Just read the post about secondhand dampers, they will always be worn in/out a bit. To be honest IMO it's strange anyone would advise fitting them. As said give it a few weeks at least.

[transam]

I'd give it a few weeks to see if they just need to wear in.

Edit: Just read the post about secondhand dampers, they will always be worn in/out a bit. To be honest IMO it's strange anyone would advise fitting them. As said give it a few weeks at least.

Your shocks could be an after-market setup for a "firm" ride. But I still cannot understand your "thud" thingy if that is the case.

[JAS21]

I'd give it a few weeks to see if they just need to wear in.

Edit: Just read the post about secondhand dampers, they will always be worn in/out a bit. To be honest IMO it's strange anyone would advise fitting them. As said give it a few weeks at least.

I think using 2nd hand Japanese parts is to do with the Japanese Used Vehicle Exporting Policy.

[charlie42]

You should be able to lean on the front or either side of
the car , with all your weight and be able to get it to bounce up and
down, even new cars can do this.

If you cant, who ever done this job has made a mess of it.


I swapped out the front shocks on a FWD 3 or 4 times.


The only thing i can think is that he has swapped your front springs

with a much harder spring, this is the only way that you wont get moment.




Take it to another mechanic for a second opinion or better one of the major tire and

shock shops around with a lift, then you can see whats what.

Good luck

Charlie

[arthurwait]

I'd give it a few weeks to see if they just need to wear in.

Edit: Just read the post about secondhand dampers, they will always be worn in/out a bit. To be honest IMO it's strange anyone would advise fitting them. As said give it a few weeks at least.

Your shocks could be an after-market setup for a "firm" ride. But I still cannot understand your "thud" thingy if that is the case.

The thud is the driver hitting the brake pedal hard trying to make it dive.

[JAS21]

You should be able to lean on the front or either side of

the car , with all your weight and be able to get it to bounce up and

down, even new cars can do this.

If you cant, who ever done this job has made a mess of it.

I swapped out the front shocks on a FWD 3 or 4 times.

The only thing i can think is that he has swapped your front springs

with a much harder spring, this is the only way that you wont get moment.

Take it to another mechanic for a second opinion or better one of the major tire and

shock shops around with a lift, then you can see whats what.

Good luck

Charlie

Thanks Charlie

I have been convinced all along that the springs are wrong, You should be able to dip the front as you say. As the car has been with her daughter for a number of years it might have been like this for a long time ... only drove it recently to get the Head overhauled. I did ask my wife to take it to a Gooru place BUT instead she phoned them up and got a long speal. Now she says he did say change the springs!!! I need a second opinion from a suspension place ............

Going out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wilcopops]

Are you saying there is NO MOVEMENT in the front suspension? i.e. you can't push the nose down at all? you'd find it almost impossible to negotiate a Thai speed bump in that case....is that so?

My first thought was that changing shocks and springs ca be a bit like buying new shoes.....the whole arrangement ca feel very different.

Changes in suspension etc can progress very slowly and the driver is ofte unaware of how sloppy everything has got until they are fixed or replaced.

[kartman]

From Wiki -

The Mazda Lantis is a series of two cars sold in Japan from 1993 to 1996. In the rest of the world it was also known as 323F, Astina, Allegro Hatchback or Artis Hatchback.

Any of these models sold in Thailand ? If so, parts should interchange.

Very hard to diagnose on an internet forum. Someone with knowledge will have to drive the car and/or static test to make a recommendation.

Sounds - as a glance - that the lack of suspension movement when hitting a bump on the tollway may be caused by too much compression damping, or the strut is binding in its travel some way. Maybe isolators worn out and no compliance.

Thai Lantis is a Xedos with front & rear mods .