What Israel must do now

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[LPCustom69]

Is anyone going to do anything about ISIS, or IS? Seems they've killed a lot more than 2,000 people?

[joepublic]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

You will always get nutjobs that hate Jews for being Jews - I ignore them, we all should.They do nothing to address the injustice and suffering of the Palestinians

However, you do tend use the existence of these anti-jewish racists to silence rational criticism, and thats something that people have a problem with

[Jingthing]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

You will always get nutjobs that hate Jews for being Jews - I ignore them, we all should.They do nothing to address the injustice and suffering of the Palestinians

However, you do tend use the existence of these anti-jewish racists to silence rational criticism, and thats something that people have a problem with

Suggesting Israel is the same as Nazi Germany isn't rational criticism by any stretch of the imagination. It's the favorite meme of so called "anti-Zionists" who clearly have an additional agenda.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

All criticism or arguments against jews or Israel is hate and antisemitism.

The Straw Man fallacy again. No one has ever said that ALL criticism against Jews or Israel is antisemitism, but it is very obvious that MUCH of it is and a lot of the worst offenders try to pretend otherwise.

Rising anti-Semitism and mass protests against the Israeli assault on Gaza have prompted almost two-thirds of British Jews to question their future in the UK, according to a Jewish Chronicle poll.

The JC asked 150 people: “Since the protests against the war in Gaza began, have you or your friends had a discussion about whether there is a future for Jews in the UK?” Just over 63 percent answered “Yes.”

The Community Security Trust says July was the second worst month of anti-Semitism since British records began, with 240 incidents logged. Bomb threats, vandalized synagogues, racist banners and assaults are just some of the anti-Semitic hate crimes plaguing the UK since the Israel-Gaza crisis began.

http://rt.com/uk/180600-gaza-police-jews-tension/

[puipuitom]

What YOU would do, when a grandpa in the street goes to sit on his balcony, take his granddaughter on his knees and start shooting with a 100 years old rifle on the bedrooms of your children. ? The first time, you maybe will throw rocks to him to stop. Pity when a rock hits the little girl, but the third time, you will use your modern sniper gun, and will shoot him down. Even with that to risk to hit the little girl also.

Remind: after 1967 the borders between the Palestinian territories and Israel were as open as now between the EU countries: a line on the map only. I visited in 1971 with Palestinians an Israeli wedding in Kfar Haroeh near Hadera and close to Jenin an Arab wedding together with Israelis from the kibbutz on the other side of the line.

But terrorists used the opportunity to place bombs in Israel, killing civilians.

Not strange the Israelis closed the borders, and even imposed a naval blockade to prevent new weapons to enter Gaza. The hundreds of thousands of jobs of Palestinians working in Israel of for Israeli factories in their own area are now or cancelled of taken by Thais, Vietnamese and Philippinos.

The Israelis learnt in Southern Lebanon what the guarantees of the western powers was worth after the protection war and retreat: NOTHING ! The UN forces, inclusive from my own Netherlands would take care no arms would enter that area., Result: a few years later thousands of rockets were fired towards Northern Israel till the Israeli army finished it. Now the Hezbollah is busy in Syria, but will return back with all Syrian weaponry they can lay hands on.

There can be peace in 5 minutes: stop with assaults on Israelis.

[Scott]

The topic is 'What Israel Must do Now'. Please stay on topic. Posts have been removed.

[Pakboong]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

In regard to another post I asked myself "Hrmm, why are the Jews hated for so long?" I quickly assembled my thoughts and your post clarified them. As Jung and other brilliant minds have noted the collective nature of human civilization does create deeply seated archetypes that persistent long after rationality has been applied to consider. Whether it's the dark, snakes, etc., people have a tendency to have irrational responses that are based on archaic predilections, or perceptions.

Jews were first bastardized by Rome (the parent of much western thought) thousands of years ago. This was later reinforced by Islamic deeply seated resentment over Ischmaels ouster and dis inheritance. This was enshrined in disdain and mandate in the Islamic teachings. Coinciding with this era Christians (of Typically roman/Byzantium lineage) debated the fault for the suffering of their Christ. It would have been wholly improper even during the era of Constantine to suggest Pontius Pilate killed the Christ. Thus the Jews committed the deicide. Ironically, and either way, had the Christ not died, in this very fashion, Christianity and thus salvation would never have occurred for all the Jew haters subsequently born.

In this manner distasteful archetypes emerges and the scapegoats needed in every generation and religious inculcation cemented Jew disdain into often outrageous but frequently subtle biases across the Western world. The Islamic world needs little archetypical precursors; hatred and vile are spewed at the Jews multiple times a daily throughout the pulpits of the Islamic world.

It's against this backdrop that many of you arrive here today, secure in your one sided comprehensive knowledge of the Jewish/Arab equation. At least have the self clarity to grasp which thoughts are your own and which are inherited.

A bunch of it is simply perception and much of it is certainly irrational. I get annoyed when a pro-Israel poster expects to have his say without criticism and the other side is censored. If the anti-Israeli decides to comment anyway, he or she is met with sarcasm and other condescending

comments. It is a two way street and nobody demands the upper hand and actually gets away with it. There is no counter claim against anti-semitism or holocaust denial, it is a one way street. These notions have evolved to the detriment of Jews IMO.

[retarius]

How about the Israelis stop stealing Palestinian lands and give back all that has been stolen to date. I would like to see a world-wide boycott of Israel, similar to what was done to South Africa. The world should not tolerate a nation whose policy is to kill and maim children, women and innocents. Collective punishment is a war crime.

[Jingthing]

A bunch of it is simply perception and much of it is certainly irrational. I get annoyed when a pro-Israel poster expects to have his say without criticism and the other side is censored. If the anti-Israeli decides to comment anyway, he or she is met with sarcasm and other condescending

comments. It is a two way street and nobody demands the upper hand and actually gets away with it. There is no counter claim against anti-semitism or holocaust denial, it is a one way street. These notions have evolved to the detriment of Jews IMO.

I don't think this the right forum to post holocaust denial material. We have seen that posted here posted in past. I would think there are scads of Neo-Nazi and radical Islamist forums where such garbage would fit right in.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[lvr181]

a very one sided story,

Gaza is controlled by Israel like a big concentration camp,

it controls what goes in and out, they killing people at will,

the world should accept Gaza as a state and stop Israel killing it's people,

it is a shame to think that Israel do now the same to the Palestine people what the

Nazis have done to them, and this without punishment,

something has to be done

*Expletive deleted* It is the avowed intention of Hamas to eliminate Israel. Israel will defend itself. If Israel wanted to eliminate Gaza it could do very easily. Israel only want to get Hamas out of Gaza, that is all. Hamas hide behind women and children and then tell the world "look at what evil Israel is doing". Wake up and face the truth of what is happening. I am not Jew but I can understand what they are unfortunately doing, to protect themselves.

A NOT one sided story.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Scott
Profanity

[retarius]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

Funnily enough, I have no problem with people being Jewish, or any other faith. I DO have a problem with a country that sponsors murdering and maiming of children, women and other innocents. Collective punishment is a war crime. The Nazis did the same to the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto....kill a Nazi soldier and they will kil 10 of yours....whoever does it, it is a war crime. Thousands died for the kidnap of 3 kids...a total lack of proportion and bullying by Israel....I don;t care whether bullies are balck, white, Jewish or Islamist...I simply don't like bullies. This is not anti-semitic, it is anti-inhumanity.

[7by7]

The Community Security Trust says July was the second worst month of anti-Semitism since British records began, with 240 incidents logged. Bomb threats, vandalized synagogues, racist banners and assaults are just some of the anti-Semitic hate crimes plaguing the UK since the Israel-Gaza crisis began.

http://rt.com/uk/180600-gaza-police-jews-tension/

More from the linked to article

He (Sir Peter Fahy) said the level of anti-Semitism had risen in a comparative way to the surge in incidents directed at Muslims following the murder of British solider Lee Rigby last year.

Both upsurges irrational and unforgiveable; but both caused by the deliberate actions of racist hatemongers stirring up the ignorant who cannot differentiate between Jews in general and the Israeli government or Muslims in general and Islamic terrorists.

As a side note, I don't recall any of those currently condemning the current upsurge of anti Semitism in the UK doing the same about the upsurge in Islamaphobia and attacks on mosques etc. after the horrific murder of Lee Rigby!

[JohnnyJazz]

What Israel must do I don't know, but calling people who oppose its policy antisemitics is not working anymore, first and foremost because it's never been true.

Dutch nonagenarian returns Righteous Among the Nations medal after six relatives killed in Gaza

In the accompanying letter, addressed to Ambassador Haim Davon, Zanoli began by describing the price his family paid for resisting the Nazis and their successful effort to save a Jewish child.

“Against this background it is particularly shocking and tragic that today, four generations on, our family is faced with the murder of our kin in Gaza. Murder carried out by the State of Israel,” he wrote.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.610682

Edited August 16, 2014 by JohnnyJazz

[Jingthing]

Exactly. Those pushing the Nazi equivalency big lie are pushing something entirely irrational and extremely inflammatory. There is plenty to criticize about Israeli policies that are REAL. Somehow that is beyond the master "debaters" here to do without bringing the "Jews are Nazis" theme into the picture.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[pumpuy]

Jews are Jews and Nazis are Nazis .

But Jews are not above all critizism !

Not everybody who dares to critic Israel is automatically an "Antisemit " !

The facts prove , I think , that Israelis are definitely not better than the rest of the world , so there should be the basic right of " Freedom of Speech " and Critizism as long as it is based on facts !

[Pakboong]

A bunch of it is simply perception and much of it is certainly irrational. I get annoyed when a pro-Israel poster expects to have his say without criticism and the other side is censored. If the anti-Israeli decides to comment anyway, he or she is met with sarcasm and other condescending

comments. It is a two way street and nobody demands the upper hand and actually gets away with it. There is no counter claim against anti-semitism or holocaust denial, it is a one way street. These notions have evolved to the detriment of Jews IMO.

I don't think this the right forum to post holocaust denial material. We have seen that posted here posted in past. I would think there are scads of Neo-Nazi and radical Islamist forums where such garbage would fit right in.

It may not be but that was a major part of my point. The censorship thing. If it is off topic, there are mods to take care of such as that.

[doctorproc156]

Such pathetic responses from the pro-Israelis on this forum. Somehow condemning the act of bombing UN refugee centers and schools is now considered antisemitism. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

[7by7]

<snip>

Palestinian Arabs are 20% of the population of Israel, with all the same legal rights, their own political parties and government posts. Israel does not consider them "less than human" in any way.

But it does seem to consider them as 'less than Israeli.' Otherwise, why does the Israeli government have discriminatory nationality laws?

Lawsuit challenges Israel’s discriminatory citizenship definition

Some 30 laws in Israel specifically privilege Jews, including in the areas of immigration rights, naturalization, access to land and employment.

Arab leaders have also long complained that indications of “Arab” nationality on ID cards make it easy for police and government officials to target Arab citizens for harsher treatment.

In the context of this topic; I would suggest that one, admittedly small, step Israel can take is to eliminate this discrimination.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[Jingthing]

Such pathetic responses from the pro-Israelis on this forum. Somehow condemning the act of bombing UN refugee centers and schools is now considered antisemitism. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

No it isn't. Nobody has ever said here that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (against Jews).

Saying modern Israel is the same as Nazi Germany is.

Cheerleading for Hamas in their clear goal to kick out (and kill those who won't run) all the Jews in Israel is.

Talking about the Israel bombings without mentioning the Hamas rocket attacks (from civilian areas) and tunnels is simply not telling the whole story. I also agree that part of the story also includes Palestinian grievances against Israel regarding the conditions in Gaza. But as presented above, it is made to sound like cold blooded murder, and that is clearly the intention of such an unbalanced description, and that is clearly not the TRUTH.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

This thread has predictably become a platform for the usual predictable antisemitic (against Jews) comments to emerge. The recent events in Gaza which yes do bring up legitimate questions about Israeli government policy have made many people feel it has now become social acceptable to express their virulent bigotry against the tiny global minority of the Jewish people. People -- do not wonder why most Jews are happy that the Jewish state of Israel exists and is strong. This irrational ancient hatred of the Jews ... it never goes away ... it lies dormant and then it always emerges. The haters of Jews now come from three major camps:

Islamist based (not only "radicals" either)

European "Christian" based (google "blood libel")

Nazis, Neo and Otherwise (y'all know about that, natch)

No of course not all criticism of Israeli government policy is based on antisemitism (against Jews) . But MUCH of it is. Just read this thread and ANY thread about Israel ... you don't have to look hard.

When Netanyahu moves the goalposts and starts demanding recognition of the Jewish State of Israel as a precondition and new obstacle for peace talks, instead of simply the secular State of Israel which all Arab countries have already agreed to recognize in 2002 and 2007. Then proceeds to murder 469 innocent children in the Jewish state’s name, is it any wonder it draws the anti Semites out of the woodwork, who see all Jews as affiliates of the Jewish state?

The Arab peace offer is still on the table..all Israel has to do is pick it up and negotiate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

“If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.” (Moshe Dayan)

Edited August 16, 2014 by dexterm

[7by7]

Then how about a comment on this blatant discrimination by the Israeli government?

Of course it was denied by the Israeli courts. South African courts once upheld the apartheid and pass laws there; didn't make such laws morally right, though.

In fairness, as the article linked to shows, this same discrimination is applied to some immigrant Jews as well.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[dexterm]

Israeli apologists always go for the big lie, Johna. Hardly worth dignifying UG with a response.

I have posted plenty of evidence to prove my point. All you have posted is the usual baseless insults with nothing to back them up. You have no credible response.

So what’s your point? A quarter of the Gazan refugee population have just been made homeless refugees a second time by the terrorist state of Israel, with 469 innocent children murdered, but the grieving parents still have shopping malls for a spot of retail therapy to ease their pain?

Edited August 16, 2014 by dexterm

[7by7]

Disclosing one's ethnic background for statistical purposes is one thing; being discriminated against and treated as a second class citizen because of it is entirely different.

But you carry on making all the excuses for this you want.

However, as I said originally, if Israel ended this discrimination against it's own Arab citizens then that could be a small step on the road to peace.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 7by7

[simple1]

Gaza is controlled by Israel like a big concentration camp,it controls what goes in and out

A "concentration camp" with modern shopping malls, luxury hotels, water parks and one of the biggest obesity problems in the world.

There was no blockade until Hamas started attacking Israel after they were elected by the citizens of Gaza.They caused their own problems. There will be no peace until the Palestinians choose moderates to represent them.

Hamas could have chosen peace. Instead, it made Gaza suffer.

Unfortunately, we know the path Hamas chose. Even as Israel was completing the process of withdrawing all its settlers and soldiers from Gaza, Hamas carried out a bus-station bombing in Israel. Then, from late 2005 to early 2006, Hamas conducted multiple attacks on the very crossing points that allowed people and goods to move into and out of Gaza.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hamas-could-have-chosen-peace-instead-it-made-gaza-suffer/2014/08/08/eefd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

modern shopping malls, luxury hotels, water parks, and one of the biggest obesity problems in the world?

I thing you've got Disney Land in Florida confused with Gaza.

Israeli apologists always go for the big lie, Johna. Hardly worth dignifying UG with a response.

Zionists are masters of playing the victim game.

Shopping malls, Gazan version

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Biggest-Palestinian-shopping-mall-being-built-in-Gaza

Water Park only opened for a few months, funded by Hamas

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/photos/the-rise-and-fall-of-gaza-crazy-park/2013/07/22/

High level of Obesity

Thus, these results might be explained by eating a greater of inadequate food especially who lived in the refugee camp, where food assistance programs provides food such as stocks of rice, flour, sugar, and cooking oil that is rich in sugar, carbohydrate, sodium, and fat which encourages weight gain

http://www.biomedcentral.com/2052-9538/1/7

The al-Mashtal is Gaza's first and only five-star hotel, the reality.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/five-stars-and-a-blockade-20110825-1jbsb.html

[dexterm]

<snip>

Palestinian Arabs are 20% of the population of Israel, with all the same legal rights, their own political parties and government posts. Israel does not consider them "less than human" in any way.

But it does seem to consider them as 'less than Israeli.' Otherwise, why does the Israeli government have discriminatory nationality laws?

Lawsuit challenges Israel’s discriminatory citizenship definition

Some 30 laws in Israel specifically privilege Jews, including in the areas of immigration rights, naturalization, access to land and employment.

Arab leaders have also long complained that indications of “Arab” nationality on ID cards make it easy for police and government officials to target Arab citizens for harsher treatment.

In the context of this topic; I would suggest that one, admittedly small, step Israel can take is to eliminate this discrimination.

There are many many examples of Israeli Jewish preferential treatment over Israeli Arabs

..discriminatory marriage laws

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/citizenship-law-makes-israel-an-apartheid-state-1.248635

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.590228

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3688662,00.html

..discriminatory employment laws

Israelis favour discrimination against Arabs – poll

...discriminatory education and housing

http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/553-washington-report-archives-2011-2015/may-2014/12483-netanyahu-s-aipac-speech-5-lies.html

In Israel, Arabs get less - Opinion Israel News | Haaretz

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.579540

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-aids-its-needy-jewish-students-more-than-arab-counterparts-1.281830

And it will be the same in the West Bank too if Israel annexes it, where the Jewish colonist actually support discrimination..

A majority of Israeli Jews favour introducing discriminatory policies against the country's Arab population and would support an "apartheid" system in the West Bank if it were ever annexed, an opinion poll has shown.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9628155/Israelis-favour-discrimination-against-Arabs-poll.html

[Ulysses G.]

Of course it was denied by the Israeli courts.

Nonsense. Even Arabs praise Israel's courts and they often decide cases against the wishes of the state. Sufian Abu Zayda, a leading Fatah official and former Palestinian Authority minister, praised the court verdict against former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert for corruption and Israeli courts in general:

"This verdict provides further evidence that the judicial system in Israel is fully independent in the wake of the separation between the legislative, executive and judicial authorities, as well as total freedom of the media,"

"How many Arab leaders would be left if they went on trial of similar cases of bribery and corruption?" — Zuhear al-Karim, Arabic CNN.

"If Olmert were in Kuwait, his case would have been shelved and he would have received a senior position in government." — Yasalam, Al-Aan.

"Law is above all and this is real democracy. Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East." — Saad Sayad, Arabic CNN.

[Scott]

A large number of off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. There is no need to rehash old arguments from other threads. There is no need for a lot of historical information, it's been covered.

Please stay on topic.

[7by7]

From the article

.....Some 30 laws in Israel specifically privilege Jews, including in the areas of immigration rights, naturalization, access to land and employment.....

.....The head of the campaign for Israeli nationality, Uzi Ornan, a retired linguistics professor, said: “It is absurd that Israel, which recognizes dozens of different nationalities, refuses to recognize the one nationality it is supposed to represent.”.....

.....“Imagine the uproar in Jewish communities in the United States, Britain or France, if the authorities there tried to classify their citizens as ‘Jewish’ or ‘Christian,’” said Ornan......

Anyone care to comment on those specific points; or will they be dismissed by some as 'frivolous?'

How can Israel make any claim to being a democracy when it discriminates against a large proportion of it's nationals in such ways?

Especially as non Israelis have such a large influence over Israeli government decisions!

International Zionist organizations representing the diaspora, such as the Jewish National Fund and the Jewish Agency, are given in Israeli law a special, quasi-governmental role, especially in relation to immigration and control over large areas of Israeli territory for the settlement of Jews only.

A democracy in which where you are allowed live is determined by your religion!

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Israel has to to leave the occupied territories! As long as they continue to steal the land of others there will be never ever peace. The more Palestinians they deliberately kill the stronger Hamas is becoming in the Palestinian community and the more hate is being sawn. If Israel does not stop their human rights abuses this conflict is going to go on for many more generations.