Retirement Visa - Combination of pension + money in bank account

[Kabula]

I have retained a Visa Lawyer and intend to return to CW next week tues/wed to appeal the denial of my extension. The lawyer is totally convinced there has been no change to the rules, and it is just a matter of explaining this to the "overworked" officials I will report back next week hopefully with some hard facts.

Good for you! I discussed this in my previous post.

I practiced US law for 25 years and know nothing about Thai law nor Thai procedures. However, in my opinion, Thai Immigration would have no defense in a legal action if they failed to follow the written, rule of law. They could win in an appeal as it probably is decided in house. However if everyone appeals and lawyers got involved I guarantee you within a very short period of time there will be a written law if in fact there was a policy change.

I would argue in the appeal that the written rule of law supersedes any verbal rule. A verbal rule could start out as a rumor, a mistake, incompetence and more!

As a result of their actions, applicants could incur substantial financial damages. The higher the damages the greater for your success.

In fact the applicant could possibly sue the individual agents and allege gross negligence. In the US many employers do not defend legal actions against employees for gross negligence. In this situation the employees have to sustain defense costs and all damages, including punitive damages.

A word of caution. Many alleged Thai lawyers who advertise are not licensed lawyers, but paralegals who are not allowed to make arguments in the court. They may have attended some legal courses, but my experience here in 9 years is many just don't have the education, nor the experience to be competent. I've asked several if they were licensed lawyers and all responded, "yes." When I asked them for their bar card or wall license they asked me to leave! That answered my question and that is what many folks are dealing with.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Kabula

[ovenman]

Another member from Chiang Mai PM'd me today, as he's planning to go there later this week for a retirement extension relying on the combo method of finance -- and not having his bank funds seasoned. He indicated he was planning to post an update here after his Immigration visit.

So, that should be instructive as to whether this potential policy change has reached outside of Bangkok as yet.

That would be me. Visited Chiang Mai immigrations for my first retirement extension today. Everything was straightforward and by the book. I used the combo method for income with no mention made whatsoever regarding seasoning of funds, either for today or for making my next extension in a year.

[smedly]

Another member from Chiang Mai PM'd me today, as he's planning to go there later this week for a retirement extension relying on the combo method of finance -- and not having his bank funds seasoned. He indicated he was planning to post an update here after his Immigration visit.

So, that should be instructive as to whether this potential policy change has reached outside of Bangkok as yet.

That would be me. Visited Chiang Mai immigrations for my first retirement extension today. Everything was straightforward and by the book. I used the combo method for income with no mention made whatsoever regarding seasoning of funds, either for today or for making my next extension in a year.

and how long were the funds in the Thai bank

[ovenman]

Another member from Chiang Mai PM'd me today, as he's planning to go there later this week for a retirement extension relying on the combo method of finance -- and not having his bank funds seasoned. He indicated he was planning to post an update here after his Immigration visit.

So, that should be instructive as to whether this potential policy change has reached outside of Bangkok as yet.

That would be me. Visited Chiang Mai immigrations for my first retirement extension today. Everything was straightforward and by the book. I used the combo method for income with no mention made whatsoever regarding seasoning of funds, either for today or for making my next extension in a year.

and how long were the funds in the Thai bank

About six weeks. The officer who processed me never looked at my bank statement, just the letter from the bank.

[curtklay]

It has always been a requirement that it be printed 2 sided. From immigration form download page.

"Note: In case of any 2-pages form, please print out in one paper(front and back page)."

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=download

I would think it would difficult for them to have a sample form printed 2 sided.

Thanks Joe. Duly noted.

However, over 5 years I have always printed the TM-7 on 2 pages, and it has always been accepted with no discussion.

What would be difficult for them to print a 2 sided sample? They already have the form printed on 2 sides that they gave me to re-do. All they need to do is fill in the blanks.

Edited August 22, 2014 by curtklay

[Maestro]

Joe, fyi, when I open the PDF file for the Aug 29 version police order that you linked above, the words are being cut off at the far right margin.

...

That is strange. Could you please post a screenshot and say what browser you are using?

On my screen, nothing gets cut off.

[ubonjoe]

Down in the clauses where it is in cells it cuts off the right side. That is using windows PDF viewer and also when I use Chrome's viewer.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

yes... starting from page 4, where the regulations are layed out in boxed cells format.

I'm using Firefox, but I'm opening/viewing the document in Acrobat Reader 11.

The same problem with the right hand margin of both the middle and right side cell margins occurs from pages 4 through 15.

Edited August 22, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Maestro]

Thanks. I'll check it out on my desktop computer and see what can be done.

[Maestro]

Immigration Bureau order 327-2557 (2014) - extension criteria & conditions en.pdf

Made a new conversion from Word to PDF and the above should now display correctly. Please double-check.

PS. I have also changed the link to 327/2557 in the pinned topic Important Visa Information.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Maestro
added postscript

[ubonjoe]

It is good now thanks.

I had not noticed it because I have been using the doc version.

[Maestro]

Thank you, Ubonjoe. And TallGuyJohninBKK, thank you again for having brought this problem to our attention.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The updated pdf document reads fine in my Acrobat Reader now, without any of the margin problems.

However, I notice the problem with the document using the word "fluids" where it should say "funds" continues uncorrected.

[watutsi]

Update : I intended to update this a couple of days ago but i have been stuck in CW for the last 3 days. To recap , after successfully extending my retirement visa over 12 years . the last 8 using the combo method of pension + bank balance , my extension was refused last week based on the fact that the money in my bank had not been there for 3months.My balance was 885000 baht just for interests sake

I hired a lawyer and they were confident it would not be difficult to turn this around as they could find no reason , after examining my papers, why i had been refused. After three Kafkaesque days in immigration my extension is still refused and i must leave the country.

Despite quoting the law at them [police order 777/2551 section 2.22[5]] till we were blue in the face , we kept being told that a rule had been changed LAST YEAR on AUG 16.The fact that 3 different Captains all quoted aug 16 at different times seemed a bit odd to me , who remembers the date a year later ?.As i said before 3 days of this and they would not budge.They all seemed to be reading from the same script, even the sympathetic ones who seemed to want to help but couldn't.

It is beyond me how this is even possible, and no one on this forum knows anything about this, and only 'Tallguyjohninbkk' who had a conversation at CW the day previous to my trip to CW has mentioned anything about it.

No doubt there are people successfully extending their visas without seasoned money in different immigration offices around the country, this after all is the fustercluck lottery of Thai Immigration, but for those that have to extend in the next few months at CW i would seriously start making inquiries.

Has anyone heard anything about this "changed rule". Based on the current police order it seems to be "breaking the law" but we aliens just seem to have to suck it up until we have something along the lines of an Ombudsman to represent our immigration rights.

I'm going now to get very drunk, and when my hangover has receded i'm off on holiday and will return as a tourist.

[ovenman]

Thanks for posting an update; sorry to hear about the (non) resolution to your situation.

[watutsi]

Slight clarification , the balance i mentioned was the combination of pension and bank , not just bank.

[ovenman]

Despite quoting the law at them [police order 777/2551 section 2.22[5]] till we were blue in the face , we kept being told that a rule had been changed LAST YEAR on AUG 16.The fact that 3 different Captains all quoted aug 16 at different times seemed a bit odd to me , who remembers the date a year later ?.As i said before 3 days of this and they would not budge.They all seemed to be reading from the same script, even the sympathetic ones who seemed to want to help but couldn't.

Was immigrations able to supply you with a copy of this not-so-new rule?

[watutsi]

The simple answer to that is no,the whole atmosphere is not conducive to really getting anywhere , we were appealing something therefore we did not seem to fit in anywhere, you have to try and fit into the space of other people getting their visas, plus the staff do not want to deal with something that is "controversial" It was a bit like being back in Suan Plu with about 5 different groups dealing with the one desk. I'm hoping that by posting this that someone on this forum with"connections" can hopefully find out more about this new rule stating that combo money must be seasoned for 3 months

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Sorry to hear of your outcome, Watutsi...

Re your post above... a couple of points:

1. There is another thread and some other posts besides yours and mine where other members here have been told seasoning is now required for their combo method deposits.

2. I wasn't told seasoning was required by just ONE Immigration supervisor at CW...but rather, by TWO different supervisors. The first was in person on the day I did my requirement extension (using monthly income) earlier this month. The second was via phone when I called CW Immigration a few days later to try to sort out the uncertainty about all of this.

And yet, Ovenman wasn't hassled when he went to extend with the same situation in Chiang Mai this week....

All I can say at this point is... anyone planning to do a combo method retirement extension at Chaengwattana right now either a) ought to make sure their bank deposit funds are seasoned 3 months, or b] be prepared with a backup plan if you go in with un-seasoned funds, in case you're turned down the same as Watutsi.

Edited August 28, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ovenman]

And yet, Ovenman wasn't hassled when he went to extend with the same situation in Chiang Mai this week....

All I can say at this point is... anyone planning to do a combo method retirement extension at Chaengwattana right now either a) ought to make sure their bank deposit funds are seasoned 3 months, or b] be prepared with a backup plan if you go in with un-seasoned funds, in case you're turned down the same as Watutsi.

I second that assessment and would like to add that despite my positive report from last week, I would also be wary about seasoning with the combo method in Chiang Mai. There have been some reports of applicants being told that seasoning is a requirement in CM (although not my own experience).

[david555]

A good advice would be that if you got a 1 year miltiple o visa , not to wait for the last entry period to go for the retirement extension , but use the before last entry , so you have an easy back up plan to go

And take at least 1 month the money on bank , as others you can not proove the 3 month seasoning in your backup plan (depending wich timeframe you went for the eventually refused application)

[watutsi]

Sorry to hear of your outcome, Watutsi...

Re your post above... a couple of points:

1. There is another thread and some other posts besides yours and mine where other members here have been told seasoning is now required for their combo method deposits.

2. I wasn't told seasoning was required by just ONE Immigration supervisor at CW...but rather, by TWO different supervisors. The first was in person on the day I did my requirement extension (using monthly income) earlier this month. The second was via phone when I called CW Immigration a few days later to try to sort out the uncertainty about all of this.

And yet, Ovenman wasn't hassled when he went to extend with the same situation in Chiang Mai this week....

All I can say at this point is... anyone planning to do a combo method retirement extension at Chaengwattana right now either a) ought to make sure their bank deposit funds are seasoned 3 months, or b] be prepared with a backup plan if you go in with un-seasoned funds, in case you're turned down the same as Watutsi.

Thank you for your thoughts Tallguy also to Ovenman

I was aware of a slight chatter after reading this thread which if i remember correctly only goes back to a couple of warnings in CM not so long ago. But immigration at CW is saying to me this rule is a year old and yet no one has reported anything until this week, and as of now i seem to be the only person who has reported being shafted.It does not feel that the whole story is out there.

[ovenman]

The simple answer to that is no,the whole atmosphere is not conducive to really getting anywhere , we were appealing something therefore we did not seem to fit in anywhere, you have to try and fit into the space of other people getting their visas, plus the staff do not want to deal with something that is "controversial" It was a bit like being back in Suan Plu with about 5 different groups dealing with the one desk. I'm hoping that by posting this that someone on this forum with"connections" can hopefully find out more about this new rule stating that combo money must be seasoned for 3 months

Understood.

Can't help but wonder whether there truly is any formal new rule. One would think that if you and your lawyer were "quoting the law at them [police order 777/2551 section 2.22[5]] till we were blue in the face" that they would have at some point whipped out a copy of the new rule to trump you. Or perhaps that's just being too logical.

[watutsi]

Also before i went to immigration my lawyer gave me a long lecture about not losing my temper, or raising my voice or demanding stuff. By being deferential submissive and respecting the "Thai way" we might get what we want, by doing things the farang way we will never get what we want.So i tried the "Thai way" but that didn't get us anywhere either.

[paz]

Update : I intended to update this a couple of days ago but i have been stuck in CW for the last 3 days. To recap , after successfully extending my retirement visa over 12 years . the last 8 using the combo method of pension + bank balance , my extension was refused last week based on the fact that the money in my bank had not been there for 3months.My balance was 885000 baht just for interests sake

I hired a lawyer and they were confident it would not be difficult to turn this around as they could find no reason , after examining my papers, why i had been refused. After three Kafkaesque days in immigration my extension is still refused and i must leave the country.

Despite quoting the law at them [police order 777/2551 section 2.22[5]] till we were blue in the face , we kept being told that a rule had been changed LAST YEAR on AUG 16.The fact that 3 different Captains all quoted aug 16 at different times seemed a bit odd to me , who remembers the date a year later ?.As i said before 3 days of this and they would not budge.They all seemed to be reading from the same script, even the sympathetic ones who seemed to want to help but couldn't.

It is beyond me how this is even possible, and no one on this forum knows anything about this, and only 'Tallguyjohninbkk' who had a conversation at CW the day previous to my trip to CW has mentioned anything about it.

No doubt there are people successfully extending their visas without seasoned money in different immigration offices around the country, this after all is the fustercluck lottery of Thai Immigration, but for those that have to extend in the next few months at CW i would seriously start making inquiries.

Has anyone heard anything about this "changed rule". Based on the current police order it seems to be "breaking the law" but we aliens just seem to have to suck it up until we have something along the lines of an Ombudsman to represent our immigration rights.

I'm going now to get very drunk, and when my hangover has receded i'm off on holiday and will return as a tourist.

There could be very well be a new rule. It may be in form of an internal circular. If you really don't want to leave country try applying at Jomtien, all you need is to state that you live there now.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Also before i went to immigration my lawyer gave me a long lecture about not losing my temper, or raising my voice or demanding stuff. By being deferential submissive and respecting the "Thai way" we might get what we want, by doing things the farang way we will never get what we want.So i tried the "Thai way" but that didn't get us anywhere either.

I hope you're asking your "attorney" for a refund of whatever you had to pay them... since it sounds like he/she did squat to either advance your case/appeal or get to the bottom of just what's going on with Immigration on this issue. [Only half kidding about that... but really...doesn't sound like he/she did much on your behalf].

As for the broader issue... I'm just guessing here... but I'd guess that combo method retirement extensions are probably the smallest category of those done in terms of numbers of people... From the posts here on TV, I'd get the impression that most farangs use the bank deposits method, and a smaller number use the monthly income method... And I'd guess that an even smaller number use the combo method... But that's just my impression.

But it might also help explain why there wasn't as much chatter on this topic as has occurred on other issues...

[MrWorldwide]

Apologies to the OP but I'm a little confused - do we need to show 800K in the bank at each and every 90-day report ? I know I have to show my letter and bank book again at my first 90-day report in September (the seasoning requirement), but given that my Extension of Stay stamp is for 12 months from 30 September 2014 till 30 September 2015 I assumed that subsequent 90-day reports would be purely to lodge the form/photocopies (including a printout showing my address on Google maps apparently) and get another stamp - no more bank book until September next year when I apply for another 12-months extension of stay in the Kingdom. Can someone please clarity this for me - thanks in advance.

http://www.thaivisa.com/extensions90-day-reporting.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/557382-90-day-report-procedures/

[paz]

Apologies to the OP but I'm a little confused - do we need to show 800K in the bank at each and every 90-day report ?

No. You can also not show up at all and report by mail.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is no financial element to 90-day reporting for people on retirement extensions of stay.

Nothing about the 90-day reporting process requires showing any proof of funds or bank letters or bank books.

The financial element is only part of obtaining or renewing the extension of stay.

[MrWorldwide]

Thanks for the feedback guys - fortunately I dont need the combo method but it sounds like a PITA. Immigration seem to like to be able to just put ticks in the relevant boxes and get people through the queue - at least that's been my experience at Jomtien.