Gaza conflict: Truce ends amid fresh fighting

[Morch]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless. One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future, again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

[dexterm]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Not true mate, not this time

Yes, this time. Israel reacted to rockets launched from Gaza, hours before the ceasefire was supposed to end. They had every reason to go after Muhammad Daff in response.

How is it that those with a clear interest in this issue can skip a day, miss a news feed, go to lunch, return and pick up a paper and declare "Israel is at it again," conveniently overlooking that consistently Hamas is provoking conflict. "Not this time." Yes, this time. Indeed, I'll make it simple so you don't have to follow the news feeds everyday; nearly all the time Hamas will be both the aggressor and victim- it is their strategic plan to both victimize Palestinians and weaken Israel diplomatically. It's working.

You conveniently fail to mention that the whole siege of Gaza is an act of Israeli aggression. Try sailing a boat full of medical supplies into Gaza and see what the Israelis will do to you.

[dexterm]

Arabs do not hate Israel. They hate Jews. Wherever they were, are or will be. When (rather if) they finish the Jews Christians will be next.

I think the Jewish terrorists gangs have beaten the Arabs to it

Israel cannot wait any longer to crush price tag attacks

Where is the visible action by Israeli officials against price tag attacks? Are they heeding Church leaders' fears of a wave of hate crimes during the Pope's visit?

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.591287

Anti-Christian graffiti spray-painted on Be'er Sheva church

Vandalism comes only two days before Pope Francis I begins his visit to the Holy Land.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.592439

Edited August 20, 2014 by dexterm

[joepublic]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless.

One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future,

again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one

of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

Just another example of the lies and spin that come from the Zionists - a ceasefire is whatever you say it is, whenever you want it to be. There really is no point debating with you people.

Edited August 20, 2014 by joepublic

[Scott]

The topic is about the Gaza Conflict. The one on what Israel should do has been closed.

Endless quotes will be deleted.

Stay on topic, please.

[arjunadawn]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Not true mate, not this time

Yes, this time. Israel reacted to rockets launched from Gaza, hours before the ceasefire was supposed to end. They had every reason to go after Muhammad Daff in response.

How is it that those with a clear interest in this issue can skip a day, miss a news feed, go to lunch, return and pick up a paper and declare "Israel is at it again," conveniently overlooking that consistently Hamas is provoking conflict. "Not this time." Yes, this time. Indeed, I'll make it simple so you don't have to follow the news feeds everyday; nearly all the time Hamas will be both the aggressor and victim- it is their strategic plan to both victimize Palestinians and weaken Israel diplomatically. It's working.

You conveniently fail to mention that the whole siege of Gaza is an act of Israeli aggression. Try sailing a boat full of medical supplies into Gaza and see what the Israelis will do to you.

No, I don't fail. There's a long list of real and perceived acts on both sides. There's a few things mixed here, but I get your point. It's also kinda valid. All of Gaza not under siege by Israel. The other border remains accessible, insofar as neighbors allow traffic. The blockade has generally always been seen as an act of war. I agree. Yet there's a reason for the blockade; a clear and present danger reason. Moreover, even after the detection and boarding of false flag ships carrying advanced arms other ships have also been detected trying to circumvent or run the blockade. The big fiasco with the Turkish departed ship was sailing intentionally into a declared blockade. It was no surprise they were boarded. Yet the act did have the intended public relations black eye to Israel. But when boarded the point was not made more valid by attaching Israeli sailors who boarded. They wanted the vessel turned or seized, but hardly the drama that unfolded. Again, victim strategy to attrition Israel via the media. It works.

Should the blockade be lifted? Only if an agreed third party could run the ports. Otherwise they might as well open the gates, drag in the horse, and get drunk.

I don't "conveniently" avoid anything. I'm clearly partial yet I really do try to remain objective. Israel is not remotely without fault, including first cause blame- 1947! I just don't know how to navigate to a solution that does not include Jewish genocide. It is not unrelated to consider the entire region, either. Context matters and with the players on the ground being supported and motivated throughout the bloodthirsty region, this is relevant. It's not just Palestinians that want Jews dead!

[Kalebiran]

Palestinians are raised from day one in hatred agains Israelis.

I have not noticed the opposite in Israel.

laughable comment. actions speak louder than words.Israeli talk is cheap and fake.

[dexterm]

Another failure ahead. No win situation for Israel until they take all Gaza exterminate HAMAS and leave. Half a job isn't a job well done. And tell the 'World opinion' to go and bomb themselves.

Assuming, of course, that it is indeed feasible for Israel to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and destroy the Hamas. Not an assured thing on both counts and unlikely Israelis will give continued support for such a long term endeavor. Even if this was to work out as planned, quite probable that a new outfit will take Hamas's place as soon as the space clears.

There are no magic solutions here - Israel can either accept the reality of ongoing hostilities on the current level, or attempt to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and stay in charge, or, alternatively - find a diplomatic solution (preferably one which makes the Hamas redundant while addressing most of the Palestinian grievances).

I agree with you, Morch.

An Israeli re-occupation would be very costly in lives (both sides) and another loss in the global PR stakes.

I know Israel has security issues, but the most sensible way of resolving that is not to back Hamas into a corner saying they must disarm or else...they won’t. They should try some diplomacy. Tit for tat goodwill..as long as the rockets don’t come as the weeks and months go by, a gradual easing of the blockade with the ultimate goal of ending it, plus a port and an airport if all is well after a year. Throw in some provisos such as PA/UN/NATO/IDF inspecting trucks at the Egyptian crossing, and a hotline to leaders, to sort out any rogue firing, while at the same time no provocative assassinations by Israelis.

It could be a win win..prolonged period of quiet for Israelis, and a better life for Gazans.

And during that quiet time, start negotiating a serious final peace agreement. If Hamas won’t recognize Israel, who cares? Many Zionist fanatics will never recognize a Palestinian state either. Both sides’ extremists would be sidelined in a majority referendum.

Shalom

[dexterm]

.

Should the blockade be lifted? Only if an agreed third party could run the ports. Otherwise they might as well open the gates, drag in the horse, and get drunk.

I agree. I think that would be a fair precaution until trust is built up, or if one day a peace agreement transpires too.

[dexterm]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless. One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future, again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

That is plain crazy.

You must agree not to shoot at us, but we can still shoot at you.

[Morch]

Palestinians are raised from day one in hatred agains Israelis.

I have not noticed the opposite in Israel.

Would depend on which places you visit in Israel, whom you talk to and on what level. As you mentioned earlier that you stayed on a kibbutz, it is not very surprising that you would come to this conclusion.

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless. One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future, again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

That is plain crazy.

You must agree not to shoot at us, but we can still shoot at you.

If Hamas agreed to it, that is their problem, but they violated the ceasefire and gave Israel every reason to target the terrorist leader.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Eliot Rosewater]

The Israelis might have the upper hand at this time but the world and especially the Palestinians will not forget that they deliberately killed children, bombed UN protected schools and steal the land of the Palestinians since decades.

Things are in continuous evaluation and the day will come that they have to pay for the crimes against humanity committed, these scumbags deserve that punishment fully.

Israel has killed NO arabs in this war, hamas is wholly redponsible

[Morch]

How is it that those with a clear interest in this issue can skip a day, miss a news feed, go to lunch, return and pick up a paper and declare "Israel is at it again," conveniently overlooking that consistently Hamas is provoking conflict. "Not this time." Yes, this time. Indeed, I'll make it simple so you don't have to follow the news feeds everyday; nearly all the time Hamas will be both the aggressor and victim- it is their strategic plan to both victimize Palestinians and weaken Israel diplomatically. It's working.

You conveniently fail to mention that the whole siege of Gaza is an act of Israeli aggression. Try sailing a boat full of medical supplies into Gaza and see what the Israelis will do to you.

Try to run a blockade and things usually get hairy. Take the same cargo to the nearest Israeli port, it will be inspected and transferred by land to the Gaza Strip. This happened last month on a few occasions, and was covered in previous topics.

The issue is not so much transfer of goods to the Gaza Strip, as much as applying control over incoming goods.

[Morch]

Arabs do not hate Israel. They hate Jews. Wherever they were, are or will be. When (rather if) they finish the Jews Christians will be next.

I think the Jewish terrorists gangs have beaten the Arabs to it

Israel cannot wait any longer to crush price tag attacks

Where is the visible action by Israeli officials against price tag attacks? Are they heeding Church leaders' fears of a wave of hate crimes during the Pope's visit?

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.591287

Anti-Christian graffiti spray-painted on Be'er Sheva church

Vandalism comes only two days before Pope Francis I begins his visit to the Holy Land.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.592439

Compare the number of Arab Christians in the Gaza Strip to their numbers in Israel. While these things happen, they are nowhere on the scale of religious prosecution evidenced in the Gaza Strip, or elsewhere in the Middle East. No need to overdo things.

[Wat dee]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Not true mate, not this time, according to the Israeli press of this morning the Israelis tried to

assassinate Muhammad Daff, is a marked man, he's the head of the militant arm of the Hamas, who has been

on Israel 's most wanted list for years and mange to miraculously survive 4 assignations attempt in the past, this time also the papers that he might have survived but his wife and daughter got killed,

Woman and child murdered. Who is the savage ?

Of course it's always sad if a woman or child is killed, particularly if they're non-combatants. The husband and dad is/was a combatant. In that role, he has a duty to remove himself from them, at least as long as there's a war going on. He's a military target. He knows it, as I assume everyone who knows him knows it. Some unsolicited free advice to non-combatant Palestinians: Don't hang with combatants! It could be hazardous to your health. Message to combatants: don't hide among non-combatants. You're endangering them.

Just collateral damage...Or don't use F-16 to eliminate single person.

[Ulysses G.]

Just collateral damage...Or don't use F-16 to eliminate single person.

A very good reason why NOT to marry and live with a terrorist.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless.

One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future,

again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one

of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

Just another example of the lies and spin that come from the Zionists - a ceasefire is whatever you say it is, whenever you want it to be. There really is no point debating with you people.

So we've come to "you people" now?

Note that I haven't even commented to the moral validity of the Israeli position, just stated what I think their take on this is. Did not feel that strongly about Hamas recently breaking previous ceasefires?

[Wat dee]

Another failure ahead. No win situation for Israel until they take all Gaza exterminate HAMAS and leave. Half a job isn't a job well done. And tell the 'World opinion' to go and bomb themselves.

Exterminating Hamas is just waste of time and lives.As long as Palestinians have no human rights and live in camps, there will be Hamas or new equal organisation.

[Wat dee]

Just collateral damage...Or don't use F-16 to eliminate single person.

A very good reason why NOT to marry and live with a terrorist.

Every day more and more people think them and Him as freedom fighters.

[Jingthing]

I don't think very many are surprised the Cairo talks failed.

This detail is interesting ... whether Mr. Deif was killed or not being an important factor on the level of escalation of this current wave of violence:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/direction-of-israel-hamas-war-hinges-on-fate-of-muhammad-deif/

The prospects for resumed negotiations in Egypt (with or without American involvement) now appear to depend, ironically, on the fate of Deif. If this symbol of Hamas has been killed, Hamas would feel the political need to escalate the fighting with a harsh response — to demonstrate to the Palestinian public that it was not surrendering. Thus, the likelihood of a truce or an arrangement in the coming days would be zero.

But if Deif has survived, the issue of revenge becomes personal, rather than political, and Cairo might again host another effort at indirect negotiations on a long-term deal.

[Seastallion]

I think what many detest about Israel, aside from the historical inequity in the Jewish land grabs, is that Israel IS the aggressor. Responding to a bunch of rockets that fall in barren fields with the disingenuous cry of "We have a right to defend ourselves" and employing a barrage of modern weapons to kill hundreds is aggression.

If a little waif off the street picks up a pebble and throws it harmlessly at my feet, and I respond by yelling "I have a right to defend myself" and attack the waif with a knife and a club, giving him a sound beating...who is the aggressor? Add to that scenario that the waif happens to have something I want, and if he runs away I'll obtain, and my motives become clear.

Ok, "what many detest about Israel," and you then make a valid point about the land, but you digress into the very thing under consideration as a declared fact, "Israel IS (I guess no ISIS pun intended) the aggressor."

It's convenient for an observer to arbitrarily decide "a bunch of rockets" doesn't deserve response; today, yesterday, last month, last year, every year, on the ground, in the air, overseas, on the coast. Because that the attackers aren't brilliant does not an excuse make. It's been a varying standard in war that you don't go into a gunfight with a knife. So, assuming this is known- and the whole world knows Israel will respond- why then does Hamas continuing using a knife? Doesn't reason and personal mental justice compel one to ask the question? "If Israel keeps rooting us out, forcing us to flee for our lives and hide amongst our citizens, in hospitals, in camps, why do we attack with a knife (a bunch of rockets)?" The answer is unambiguous. Hamas sacrifices Palestinians because their strategic warfare rests on the attrition of public perception. Every Sovereign since time immemorial had steadfastly guarded it's terrain. Your point is not invalid, it just doesn't seem complete, or it's lacking context. To me.

It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone. Your point is not that obvious to me. false analogy (a bit overdone)=Hamas is not a little waif off the streets. Rockets are not little pebbles. I can't comment on secondary scenarios to the waif; that one wiped me out. I hope your smiling because my intention is not unkind. I just think differently. Your position, if exercised, still produces war, conflict, or non resolution.

If Israel only return fired rockets in empty fields in response invariably Hamas would what... Get more precise. Then, extrapolating a scenario from your point, Israel would respond in kind? If Hamas rocket hit a bus and Israeli planners were considering target packets they should the correspondingly look for a target that wipes out.... Hrmmm there were 18 bus victims so... 18 Hamas fighters. You ask of Israel a standard not asked of anyone, anywhere, ever, as a tool of state.

Sorry my friend, you are using sophistry. Unintentionally, I'm sure. You concede the land issue is valid, you then go on to talk about the reality of going to a gunfight armed with a knife. So true and apt, but it avoids the issue of justice, and another reality; that of fighting to your last breath, tooth and nail, for your home. And if you hit below the belt, really, who uses Queensberry rules when the literal life of your entire community is at stake (not to mention your opponent doesn't fight by the rules either)?

You say it's a false analogy, that pebbles are not rockets. Helicopter gunships, white phosphorous, and tanks are not a knife and a club, either. Actually, to make the analogy more accurate, I should tie one of the waif's hands behind his back, and starve him of sustenance so he has low energy. I do not think I overdid it at all. You did not mention my cry, as I brutally bully the waif, of "I have a right to defend myself!". It was important to the analogy. Also important to the analogy was the fact that I want something that the waif has, and with him gone or incapacitated, I am free to take it.

I don't dispose of your point regarding proportionate responses. I think, though, you were a little disingenuous to suggest that I think Israel should kill 18, for the 18 Hammas killed. But there's proportionate and then there's vastly disproportionate, ie pebble harmlessly falling in my direction vs a severe beating with a knife and club. Surely if I had slapped the waif, or even boxed his ears I would not earn (as much) censure?

As you say, "It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone.".

[Jingthing]

Just collateral damage...Or don't use F-16 to eliminate single person.

A very good reason why NOT to marry and live with a terrorist.

Every day more and more people think them and Him as freedom fighters.

They're deluded then. Hamas isn't about freedom. It's about getting the Jews out of all of Israel (genocide).

Time for a humor break, methinks:

Edited August 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[Wat dee]

Just collateral damage...Or don't use F-16 to eliminate single person.

A very good reason why NOT to marry and live with a terrorist.

Every day more and more people think them and Him as freedom fighters.

They're deluded then. Hamas isn't about freedom. It's about getting the Jews out of all of Israel (genocide).

Time for a humor break, methinks:

More humor...One day a Jewish grandmother had taken her grandson to the beach for a play when suddenly a huge wave washed over the infant and pulled him out to sea. The distraught grandmother fell down on her knees, and sobbed, "Please God, don't let my grandson die, please, he is my only grandson! He is the future of my family, please return him to me safely!" Instantly another huge wave rolls the infant back onto the beach and the grandmother looks up to the sky and said, "He had a hat!"

[Eliot Rosewater]

Another failure ahead. No win situation for Israel until they take all Gaza exterminate HAMAS and leave. Half a job isn't a job well done. And tell the 'World opinion' to go and bomb themselves.

Exterminating Hamas is just waste of time and lives.As long as Palestinians have no human rights and live in camps, there will be Hamas or new equal organisation.

When the arabs accept that Israelis have rights, such as the right to live without the threat of suicide bombers and rockets killing women and children; then and only then can the arabs complain about their human rights

[dr_lucas]

Yes, this time. Israel reacted to rockets launched from Gaza, hours before the ceasefire was supposed to end. They had every reason to go after Muhammad Daff in response.

How is it that those with a clear interest in this issue can skip a day, miss a news feed, go to lunch, return and pick up a paper and declare "Israel is at it again," conveniently overlooking that consistently Hamas is provoking conflict. "Not this time." Yes, this time. Indeed, I'll make it simple so you don't have to follow the news feeds everyday; nearly all the time Hamas will be both the aggressor and victim- it is their strategic plan to both victimize Palestinians and weaken Israel diplomatically. It's working.

You conveniently fail to mention that the whole siege of Gaza is an act of Israeli aggression. Try sailing a boat full of medical supplies into Gaza and see what the Israelis will do to you.

Israel blocking its own sovereign borders (just as you have the right to block your own doors from hostile/any strangers) is an act of aggression? Ok...

What they will do the medical supplies boat? Block it, escort it to the very nearby Ashdod port, unload it, security check it and deliver the medical supplier to Gaza through one of the border crossing. As they always do.

Shocking, isn't it?

[Morch]

Another failure ahead. No win situation for Israel until they take all Gaza exterminate HAMAS and leave. Half a job isn't a job well done. And tell the 'World opinion' to go and bomb themselves.

Assuming, of course, that it is indeed feasible for Israel to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and destroy the Hamas. Not an assured thing on both counts and unlikely Israelis will give continued support for such a long term endeavor. Even if this was to work out as planned, quite probable that a new outfit will take Hamas's place as soon as the space clears.

There are no magic solutions here - Israel can either accept the reality of ongoing hostilities on the current level, or attempt to re-conquer the Gaza Strip and stay in charge, or, alternatively - find a diplomatic solution (preferably one which makes the Hamas redundant while addressing most of the Palestinian grievances).

I agree with you, Morch.

An Israeli re-occupation would be very costly in lives (both sides) and another loss in the global PR stakes.

I know Israel has security issues, but the most sensible way of resolving that is not to back Hamas into a corner saying they must disarm or else...they won’t. They should try some diplomacy. Tit for tat goodwill..as long as the rockets don’t come as the weeks and months go by, a gradual easing of the blockade with the ultimate goal of ending it, plus a port and an airport if all is well after a year. Throw in some provisos such as PA/UN/NATO/IDF inspecting trucks at the Egyptian crossing, and a hotline to leaders, to sort out any rogue firing, while at the same time no provocative assassinations by Israelis.

It could be a win win..prolonged period of quiet for Israelis, and a better life for Gazans.

And during that quiet time, start negotiating a serious final peace agreement. If Hamas won’t recognize Israel, who cares? Many Zionist fanatics will never recognize a Palestinian state either. Both sides’ extremists would be sidelined in a majority referendum.

Shalom

The thing is you (and others) try to make it seem as if this is all up to Israel, which is not the case. Hamas is not all that open to the idea of inspections, and not getting the port/airport right away (mind, the Egyptians are

far from keen on both, for their own security issues). Both sides try to drive a hard bargain and "win" something they can present to their people. Goodwill does not come into this, goodwill does not even live in this neighborhood.

I have less confidence that if things come to a referendum there will indeed be a clear majority for peace on both sides. A related issue being leadership on both sides being either unwilling or unable to deliver when it comes to peace.

[Morch]

Hamas breaks yet another truce. Savages.

Israel continues to assassinate Hamas leaders during the cease fire. Savages

Unless mistaken, Israel stated quite clearly that Hamas leaders will still be targeted, regardless. One of the Palestinian demands on the negotiations was for Israel to refrain from such assassinations in the future, again, do not think it was one of the points on which an understanding was reached. Targeting of leadership is one of the things which actually effect Hamas's stance, to a degree.

That is plain crazy.

You must agree not to shoot at us, but we can still shoot at you.

As far as I understand, this related only to Hamas leadership, not a general thing. Mind, Hamas did previously break the ceasefire during negotiations, so not really better standards.

[tartempion]

Palestinians are raised from day one in hatred agains Israelis.

I have not noticed the opposite in Israel.

Would depend on which places you visit in Israel, whom you talk to and on what level. As you mentioned earlier that you stayed on a kibbutz, it is not very surprising that you would come to this conclusion.

I travelled extensively around Israel, slept in hotels, guest houses, kibbutz and stayed at people's houses making the error of switching on the lights on Sabbat. I was told not to worry but saw the fanatics attacking people carrying a camera. I made friends with a university professor of Hebrew who spoke perfect French and English and a journalist for the Jerusalem Post. We still keep in touch sporadically.

I travelled into the Golan and saw the flattened houses and visited the border with Syria and saw a flattened Syrian town. War is sadness.

I travelled thought the Negev desert and the West Bank.

I only have negative souvenirs meeting Palestinians.

I have mixed souvenirs meeting Israelis, most positive though.

There you have it.

I saw the hatred in the Palestinian eyes, every time.

[Scott]

A post with different fonts and bold type has been reported and removed.

Generally, use the default font.