Gaza conflict: Truce ends amid fresh fighting

[Ulysses G.]

But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

That is one thing that we can agree on. However, the proportion of ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid Arabs is far higher than among Israelis or the Palestinians would have been wiped out decades ago. There is no moral equivalency and people like you like to pretend otherwise.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

Almost every one of your posts comes across as ignorant, hateful and angry. You are no more unbiased or "compassionate" than the people that you are criticizing. People in glass houses...

Dear Ulysses,

Just say it once: Israel was wrong to bomb schools and kill children. I should rethink my position.

Just say it once, you will see how much it will help you. Trust me.

[Ulysses G.]

Just say it once: Hamas was wrong to shoot thousands of rockets into Israel and hide behind their own civilians. Israel has the right to defend themselves and no country on earth would put up with those missiles.

[Seastallion]

No you're not pardoned for spin and ignorance.

Johpa is one of the more intelligent, knowledgeable and honest members on these threads and he is not particularly on one side or the other. I sometimes disagree with his conclusions, but it is obvious that he is sincere. Making such silly accusations against him just show how out of touch you are with reality.

Not silly, but accurate.

If I recall, my words were, "Why people detest Israel...". He spun that to, "You detest the existence of Israel". Spin.

Ignorance; He ignored the full analogy, and he didn't see it as an analogy but as a simile.

You are certainly out of touch with reality if you couldn't see this.

BTW...how much time did you waste desperately looking for my purported "I destest the existence of Israel" words?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Seastallion

[Seastallion]

Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

Almost every one of your posts comes across as ignorant, hateful and angry. You are no more unbiased or "compassionate" than the people that you are criticizing. People in glass houses...

...should pull down the blinds,

before removing their trousers?

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Just say it once: Hamas was wrong to shoot thousands of rockets into Israel and hide behind their own civilians. Israel has the right to defend themselves and no country on earth would put up with those missiles.

Hamas was of course wrong to shoot rockets into Isreal and use hiding behind civilians as a strategy. Israel (as Palestinia) has to right to defend themselves and no country on earth would just sit iddle with home made bombs being shot at them.

No problem at all for me to say that. So what about you?

[Seastallion]

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe. There are geography classes available on-line, for people who have not picked that up by now.

What are the grandparents of most Israeli Jews? European. 2 generations is a comfortable margin to talk about heritage.

[Ulysses G.]

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe. There are geography classes available on-line, for people who have not picked that up by now.

What are the grandparents of most Israeli Jews?

What does that matter? My grandparents are from Ireland and Germany. I am not "European."

[Seastallion]

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe. There are geography classes available on-line, for people who have not picked that up by now.

What are the grandparents of most Israeli Jews?

What does that matter? My grandparents are from Ireland and Germany. I am not "European."

In the context of what is being discussed, you are certainly hair splitting and obfuscating.

[Ulysses G.]

Not really. No matter how much you want to pretend otherwise, they are not "European" and neither am I.

[dexterm]

JT,

In the war on terror the Terrorist State of Israel is winning

2016 Palestinians dead, mainly civilians including 541 innocent children (think about that. Put the face of a beloved daughter or grandchild onto one of those blooded shredded corpses...children who have done no harm to anyone, do not have a clue what the fighting is about, and have hardly had a chance to live their lives. If I were the parents I would go insane with grief)

Your so called impossible standard is quite easy. If the target is not clear and if firing will result in harm to civilians, then don’t do it. It’s as simple as that. Otherwise it’s a war crime according to the international laws of war.

Both Hamas and the IDF have committed war crimes. The difference is that when Israelis fire their accurate and far more powerful weapons, they know they are going to kill civilians.

Edited August 21, 2014 by metisdead
Large font reset to standard font size, please stop using oversize font when posting.

[Ulysses G.]

They difference is that Hamas target and INTEND to kill civilians. That is their MO.

[Morch]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

There are not "many" Palestinians working in partnership with Jewish/Israeli pro-peace groups. There are some. Even better described as a minority. Not the rule by any means. Pro-peace Israeli/Jews are also occasionally attacked/harassed, by the way.

I do not think that all Muslim bear such burning hate and malice toward Jews/Israelis, even if these feeling are quite common. The level of taking scriptures seriously, though, is much higher with Muslims as compared with Jews - at least as far as my experience goes. While sentiments of hatred and aggression toward Arabs and Muslims are not rare among Israelis (and to a lesser degree, among Jews in general), this is not normally extended by most toward gentiles. The hardcore hardliner group is smaller.

[dexterm]

They difference is that Hamas target and INTEND to kill civilians. That is their MO.

Not very good at it though are they, compared with the accurate IDF killing machine.

[Morch]

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe. There are geography classes available on-line, for people who have not picked that up by now.

What are the grandparents of most Israeli Jews? European. 2 generations is a comfortable margin to talk about heritage.

You may want to bother and look a few posts up the topic and see that this is not a correct statement.

Also, it does not have much to do with the topic as such.

[Johpa]

In the context of what is being discussed, you are certainly hair splitting and obfuscating.

I daresay the pot is calling the kettle black.

[Scott]

A post with a lot of historical references has been deleted. However interesting these posts are, they are a little too far off-topic at this point in time.

[arjunadawn]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

Why can't my point just be codswallop? Why does it also have to be prejudiced? These are my observations. I don't share the same point. Are you unable to separate the guy who brings your mail from the bills he brings? You clearly note you have many interactions gifting you a different view; great. Your point is not made clearer by then suggesting comparable examples in the Jewish community; actually, this detracts from your point. Most people know it's on both sides but your deploying that point here makes you seem to convulse and froth at the mouth. Your point is valid. It gains no further credibility by observing other haters.

You quote divine mandate for the Jews except you ignore the context. The Jews had (IMO) some equally primitive commandments (scripture) to injure or slay others but they exist as time sensitive mandates related to then current affairs. They don't think it applies to the modern day because... It doesn't! In the Koran there is eternal imperative, mandate. These are hardly equal. Moreover, the Hadith is the path for righteous living as the prophet- the goal- and it's hardly a lovefest. It's sought to be emulated daily. Your comparison is vacant.

You show me a Muslim that doesn't hate Jews and I'll show you a Muslim that would be considered apostate by the majority. Still, you've your point. I have mine. But I don't impugn your point as prejudice. I personally have no use for any of their gods and primitive nonsense. Lastly, Muslims don't require death (in all places historically where there's been a tipping point to sharia). You can "submit" pay the tax, or die. So, you see,

Your correct- others choose to live or die.

[arjunadawn]

There are not "many" Palestinians working in partnership with Jewish/Israeli pro-peace groups. There are some. Even better described as a minority. Not the rule by any means. Pro-peace Israeli/Jews are also occasionally attacked/harassed, by the way.

I do not think that all Muslim bear such burning hate and malice toward Jews/Israelis, even if these feeling are quite common. The level of taking scriptures seriously, though, is much higher with Muslims as compared with Jews - at least as far as my experience goes. While sentiments of hatred and aggression toward Arabs and Muslims are not rare among Israelis (and to a lesser degree, among Jews in general), this is not normally extended by most toward gentiles. The hardcore hardliner group is smaller.

This is a fair summation of two opposing points. Thanks. Of course I have known Palestinians that are not Muslim. I am of course aware that there are Muslims that oppose this or that about how things are done in their name, etc. ...as a collective voice? They are drowned out or silenced. To CBR250- yes, I know there is hate both ways. While never in Israel I spent considerable time in areas of New York which are just as Jewish. I know your point.

[Eliot Rosewater]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

"Israel's overt militarism"

Everyone shouted "apartheid, racists, oppressors etc" when the wall went up

How many suicide bombers have there been since then? Virtually nill. It works and is the best thing they could have done while many of you would rather see arabs sending 16 year old girls into nightclubs and markets to kill as many innocents as possible

An eye for an eye? This is the muslim credo; how they think. After generations of Israelis have done everything to make peace; including creating a palistinian state; wholly rejected by the arabs unconditionally; the Israelis have had enough

It is now time to fight them at their own game, THEIR rules, not ours

They, nor anyone has the right to call this unfair

Do you really think the arabs would show ANY restraint if roles were reversed?

Don't kid yourself, they would kill every Israeli without doubt

[Seastallion]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

There are not "many" Palestinians working in partnership with Jewish/Israeli pro-peace groups. There are some. Even better

described as a minority. Not the rule by any means. Pro-peace Israeli/Jews are also occasionally attacked/harassed, by the

way.

I do not think that all Muslim bear such burning hate and malice toward Jews/Israelis, even if these feeling are quite common.

The level of taking scriptures seriously, though, is much higher with Muslims as compared with Jews - at least as far as my

experience goes. While sentiments of hatred and aggression toward Arabs and Muslims are not rare among Israelis (and to

a lesser degree, among Jews in general), this is not normally extended by most toward gentiles. The hardcore hardliner

group is smaller.

Yes, by Ultra Orthodox Jews, many of them teenagers and young men who have been brought up on Zionist dogma of the promised land Just as fanatical and radical as the most extreme Muslim.

These are the men that make women sit at the back of the public bus.

[Seastallion]

In the context of what is being discussed, you are certainly hair splitting and obfuscating.

I daresay the pot is calling the kettle black.

You have been called an even handed and intelligent member...I wouldn't dispute that....but this and your previous post are making me start to doubt.

Please show me an example of hair splitting...and keep in mind context of whatever I said, and context of the thread. If you do, I will gladly concede your point and learn from it.

By the way...I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said "I detest the existence of Israel", or to apologise.

[Steely Dan]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

Why can't my point just be codswallop? Why does it also have to be prejudiced? These are my observations. I don't share the same point. Are you unable to separate the guy who brings your mail from the bills he brings? You clearly note you have many interactions gifting you a different view; great. Your point is not made clearer by then suggesting comparable examples in the Jewish community; actually, this detracts from your point. Most people know it's on both sides but your deploying that point here makes you seem to convulse and froth at the mouth. Your point is valid. It gains no further credibility by observing other haters.

You quote divine mandate for the Jews except you ignore the context. The Jews had (IMO) some equally primitive commandments (scripture) to injure or slay others but they exist as time sensitive mandates related to then current affairs. They don't think it applies to the modern day because... It doesn't! In the Koran there is eternal imperative, mandate. These are hardly equal. Moreover, the Hadith is the path for righteous living as the prophet- the goal- and it's hardly a lovefest. It's sought to be emulated daily. Your comparison is vacant.

You show me a Muslim that doesn't hate Jews and I'll show you a Muslim that would be considered apostate by the majority. Still, you've your point. I have mine. But I don't impugn your point as prejudice. I personally have no use for any of their gods and primitive nonsense. Lastly, Muslims don't require death (in all places historically where there's been a tipping point to sharia). You can "submit" pay the tax, or die. So, you see,

Your correct- others choose to live or die.

When considering the merits of anecdotal evidence I would observe that one side supports their argument with name calling, whilst the other is supported by many opinion polls (which show overwhelmingly how many Muslims hate Jews) and also by the Koran itself, which has pages of quotes expressing hatred for Jews. These provide very strong corroboration.

[CBR250]

After generations of Israelis have done everything to make peace; including creating a palistinian state; wholly rejected by the arabs unconditionally; the Israelis have had enough

They, nor anyone has the right to call this unfair

Do you really think the arabs would show ANY restraint if roles were reversed?

Don't kid yourself, they would kill every Israeli without doubt

"including creating a palistinian state;"

Where is this Palestinian state that Israel has "created"?

Many political analysts agree that Israel has not made any significant concessions toward peace since the 1990s. The last potential opportunity was in May this year with the formation of the Palestinian Unity Government. Their placatory tone was totally - and angrily - rejected by the Israeli government.

"the Israelis have had enough"

Israelis have not had enough - they want more. Land. That is central to what this is all about. Israel does not want a peace that establishes a 2 state solution. This would end the land theft that goes on daily, and is destined to continue until Israel cannot steal any more. It is so strange that the vision of some rabid Zionist colonists has set the agenda of the Israeli government for over a decade, and led to countless deaths. You would hope that a country able to produce 12 Nobel prize winners would manage its fundamentalist loonies more successfully. Most Israelis would probably trade the future colonies and settle for what is owned today to prevent the deaths of ever more IDF soldiers.

"Do you really think the arabs would show ANY restraint if roles were reversed?

Don't kid yourself, they would kill every Israeli without doubt"

In fact, there are Arabs who show remarkable restraint. Mustafa Barghouti, the general secretary of the Palestinian National Initiative, has long supported a 2 state solution through negotiation - and has always rejected the use of violence to achieve this.

A very Ghandi like figure. He has had many provocations, but has constantly maintained a line of a just peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. When he was arrested and had his kneecap smashed by the rifle butt an over-enthusiastic IDF soldier during questioning, he did not use this to justify revenge or an aggressive stance. He recently condemned the rocket attacks from Hamas on international television, just as he condemns the use of military force by Israel in Gaza.

Sure, he is in a minority in Palestine. And he will stay that way as long as Israel wants to marginalise people like him so it has a constant excuse for war and land theft. There are of course people similarly inclined toward peace in Israel - and they also are treated as pariahs by mainstream Israel.

To eventually resolve this conflict you first have to understand it. And to understand it you have to seek impartial information, and consider it fairly. Encouraging responses based in anger, frustration or vengeance rather than rational analysis will only prolong the troubles.

[Morch]

Muslims do hate Jews. I personally have not only encountered it but as a private explorer of religions I have asked muslims many questions from Indo, to Paki, to Yemen, UAE, Oman, Amman, Iraq, Damascus, Afghanistan, Thailand, Egypt, etc. These are not stickers on my luggage. I actually lived, and worked amongst these muslims of varied ethnic backgrounds. To a man they hate Jews. Indeed, the few women I know from Lebanon also hate Jews. From the minarets and madrases around the world Jew Hatred is inculcated every day.

A load of prejudiced codswallop - exactly the type of irrational paranoia that helps feed the endless cycles of conflict.

I too have met many Muslims. Yet many do not hate or even dislike Jews, but assert the right of Israel to exist.

I also know many Palestinians (who have the best reason to hate after their experiences at the hands of Israelis) who are excruciatingly aware of the differences between Jewish/Israeli peoples, so do not apply blanket statements to them as a people. Of course there are right wing fascists amongst Jews - there are a large number in the Knesset - and a few on Thai Visa too. But there are also Jewish/Israeli humanists who oppose the warmongering actions of the current crop of Israeli "leaders". And there are many Palestinians working in partnership with the latter. You don't do that with people you hate.

I daresay that even some of those on these threads defending Israel's overt militarism would also acknowledge that there is a huge variation amongst Muslims - as there is amongst Jews. Not all Jews believe that Jehova's instructions to "go forth and kill every man and woman and child and living thing...." is meant to include modern day Palestinians and those other blasphemers, the Gentiles. The same as not all Muslims believe that their version of God requires the deaths of non-believers. But yes, there are indeed ignorant, racist, prejudiced and paranoid idiots on both sides. They are the ones who invest most in fanning the fires of hate.

There are not "many" Palestinians working in partnership with Jewish/Israeli pro-peace groups. There are some. Even better

described as a minority. Not the rule by any means. Pro-peace Israeli/Jews are also occasionally attacked/harassed, by the

way.

I do not think that all Muslim bear such burning hate and malice toward Jews/Israelis, even if these feeling are quite common.

The level of taking scriptures seriously, though, is much higher with Muslims as compared with Jews - at least as far as my

experience goes. While sentiments of hatred and aggression toward Arabs and Muslims are not rare among Israelis (and to

a lesser degree, among Jews in general), this is not normally extended by most toward gentiles. The hardcore hardliner

group is smaller.

Yes, by Ultra Orthodox Jews, many of them teenagers and young men who have been brought up on Zionist dogma of the promised land Just as fanatical and radical as the most extreme Muslim.

These are the men that make women sit at the back of the public bus.

Actually, I specifically meant that even Israeli/Jewish pro-peace activists are occasionally attacked/harassed by Palestinians. This also holds true for foreign pro-peace activists. Mind, I'm not claiming this is a norm - just that it does happen and that it is not something relevant organizations are keen on bringing up.

That there are attacks and harassment by Israeli right wing elements, often religious is true as well. However, the claim that these are both "Ultra Orthodox Jews" and "brought up on Zionist dogma" is a bit odd - most of those regarded as Orthodox Jews are not Zionist (and many would be considered anti-Zionist). There are some fine distinctions between different Jewish religious groups, which I think you miss. May not seem to make much difference for most outsiders, but on both sides (and pretty much everywhere on the Middle East) these distinctions do carry some meaning.

[Ulysses G.]

To eventually resolve this conflict you first have to understand it. And to understand it you have to seek impartial information, and consider it fairly. Encouraging responses based in anger, frustration or vengeance rather than rational analysis will only prolong the troubles.

I agree, but your posts on this matter have had little impartial information, nor been fair to the Israelis - another case of do what I say, not what I do.

[Ulysses G.]

Seastallion asked Johpa to show him an example of him hair splitting while ignoring the the very thread that Johpa was referring to. Seastallion claimed that "Israeli Jews are Europeans" and they are not. When confronted with that FACT, he proceeded with the hair splitting and obfuscating.

Israeli Jews are Europeans.

Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, which is not in Europe.

What are the grandparents of most Israeli Jews?

What does that matter? My grandparents are from Ireland and Germany. I am not "European."

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Israel gets especially bad "special" treatment from it's relentless critics.

When Russia takes over Crimea and China takes over Tibet (both not really defensible), NOBODY questions Russia or China's right to even EXIST in the first place within SOME borders.

But Israeli demonization today still irrationally obsessed with attacking the very legitimacy of the very EXISTENCE of the one majority Jewish nation in the world. Wonder why? I don't.

This fixation with the BIG LIE that Jewish Israelis "are European" is a classic case in point of the demonizer's attacks on the right of Israel to even exist. The implication often openly stated is really no different than Hamas -- Jews go "home" (away from Israel) or prepare to die. Just as offensive from left wing Europeans as from Hamas.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

After generations of Israelis have done everything to make peace; including creating a palistinian state; wholly rejected by the arabs unconditionally; the Israelis have had enough

They, nor anyone has the right to call this unfair

Do you really think the arabs would show ANY restraint if roles were reversed?

Don't kid yourself, they would kill every Israeli without doubt

"including creating a palistinian state;"

Where is this Palestinian state that Israel has "created"?

Many political analysts agree that Israel has not made any significant concessions toward peace since the 1990s. The last potential opportunity was in May this year with the formation of the Palestinian Unity Government. Their placatory tone was totally - and angrily - rejected by the Israeli government.

"the Israelis have had enough"

Israelis have not had enough - they want more. Land. That is central to what this is all about. Israel does not want a peace that establishes a 2 state solution. This would end the land theft that goes on daily, and is destined to continue until Israel cannot steal any more. It is so strange that the vision of some rabid Zionist colonists has set the agenda of the Israeli government for over a decade, and led to countless deaths. You would hope that a country able to produce 12 Nobel prize winners would manage its fundamentalist loonies more successfully. Most Israelis would probably trade the future colonies and settle for what is owned today to prevent the deaths of ever more IDF soldiers.

"Do you really think the arabs would show ANY restraint if roles were reversed?

Don't kid yourself, they would kill every Israeli without doubt"

In fact, there are Arabs who show remarkable restraint. Mustafa Barghouti, the general secretary of the Palestinian National Initiative, has long supported a 2 state solution through negotiation - and has always rejected the use of violence to achieve this.

A very Ghandi like figure. He has had many provocations, but has constantly maintained a line of a just peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. When he was arrested and had his kneecap smashed by the rifle butt an over-enthusiastic IDF soldier during questioning, he did not use this to justify revenge or an aggressive stance. He recently condemned the rocket attacks from Hamas on international television, just as he condemns the use of military force by Israel in Gaza.

Sure, he is in a minority in Palestine. And he will stay that way as long as Israel wants to marginalise people like him so it has a constant excuse for war and land theft. There are of course people similarly inclined toward peace in Israel - and they also are treated as pariahs by mainstream Israel.

To eventually resolve this conflict you first have to understand it. And to understand it you have to seek impartial information, and consider it fairly. Encouraging responses based in anger, frustration or vengeance rather than rational analysis will only prolong the troubles.

The proposed Palestinian Unity Government was not a missed chance for peace. It was to be a temporary government until further issues between the sides could be ironed out, and I do not believe it had a mandate to push forward major agreements with Israel. Despite appearances, Hamas did not outright denounce the main tenant of its ideology - armed struggle against Israel, nor officially announce it would accept Israel's existence. The placatory tone (if indeed there was one, not quite how things were conducted) came almost solely from Abbas, not the Hamas.

If Israel wants the land so badly, why doesn't Israel just take it? Why muck about with giving the Palestinians control over some of the land? Why pull out of the Gaza Strip? And so on and so forth. Things are hardly as simple as one liners make them appear. As for Israeli public support for clearing out the illegal settlements in exchange for peace - I would say that your assessment is both over-optimistic and unqualified - there might be a majority support for such a move, under certain circumstances and with solid assurances, in exchange for something tangible. I'm afraid, though, that current events make both trust in the other side and willingness to make concessions less likely.

Barghouti is minority because he is a minority, not because he is marginalized by Israel. Every failed Palestinian leader is somehow set back by Israel. Every successful one is rumored to be working for Israel. Welcome to the Palestinian rumor mongering club. Contrary to your claim - the pro-peace camp in the Israeli parliament holds about a third of the seats (and that's without factoring center parties). In comparison, Barghouti's party holds 2 out of 132 seats. Again, there are no simple propositions that capture the situation clearly.

[Steely Dan]

Here's one for those who dishonestly try to paint Israelis as outsiders to the region, even if it were true would it not make the origin of Palestinian leaders of more than academic interest?

Well here are some more facts to chew on;- it's a case of spot the Palestinian leader who is actually from Palestine, how fitting fakes leading fakes supported by lies.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/13/which-muslim-leaders-were-born-in-palestine/