Is there an Expats lobby group to help Expats in Thailand

[Arkady]

I think the membership of Thai visa includes the people and the experience to get something official put together. Hidden amidst the rabble.

I think this is a topic worthy of serious discussion.

If it takes three or four years so be it.

The Americans have had a treaty with Thailand since 1965 concerning equal rights for Thais in America and Americans in Thailand. The place to ask is your government not Thai Visa.

Actually the 1965 American-Thai Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations was not a wonderful achievement for Americans. The main difference between it and its predecessor was that the previous treaty allowed Americans to own land in Thailand, provided that the US state they were from allowed Thais to buy land. The US government bought the argument that allowing foreign interests to accumulate land under the old treaties that all Western countries and some others, e.g. Japan and Indonesia, had with Thailand at the time would make it easier for the Communist Party of Thailand to recruit landless peasants to its cause, despite the strict size restrictions imposed on individual foreigners by the treaties. By that time the treaties that had been renegotiated several times since the mid 1800s and were no longer particularly unfair, since most rights, including land rights, were only given on a reciprocal basis. The US therefore meekly surrendered its citizens' rights to own land in Thailand and got nothing in return, except for the right to pump billions into the coffers of a corrupt military government and to finance massive drug dealing operations in the prosecution of a hopeless war. The other foreign powers were of no strategic or financial importance to Thailand at the time and in the wake of the US cave in, the other foreign treaties were all scrapped by the early 70s. You can still see in the Land Code the rights foreigners had under the treaties. It was actually unfair to the foreigners because they were restricted in the amount of Thai land they could own, whereas Thais could generally buy land without limit in their countries.

If anything, foreign governments should be pressed to restore the concept of reciprocity in land ownership rights (and business ownership rights). Thailand is no longer a poor third world country and Thai corporations and wealthy Thai individuals are now snapping up property and businesses all over the world. However, some countries have already re-introduced the doctrine of reciprocity which means that Thais are not allowed to own land in Turkey, Taiwan and Korea to name a few. Will larger Western countries follow suit? Probably not but, if something is worth lobbying for in land ownership rights (not including leasing rights here), this is it. Thai corporations need to get the sense that their land and business ownership rights overseas might be at further risk, if they don't lobby their own government to re-introduce reciprocity.

Americans can own 100% of a business in Thailand. Americans got a gas dump, combat airfields and communications center during the Vietnam war. Did the war in Vietnam help Thailand avoid the fate of Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Vietnam? My unbiased opinion is; I don't know.

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight, being able to own 100% of a business is an advantage but that was also permitted by the pre-1965 treaty and anyway there were no restrictions on owning businesses or on foreign workers at the time. So it is true to say that America got nothing out of the new treaty but agreed to it to ingratiate itself to the military government. Without agreeing to the new treaty they could have still have spent the money and lives on the war and the CIA could have still financed the heroin trade back to the states. The anti-communist argument about foreign ownership of land was pure nonsense because, unlike Pibul who protected farmers' rights to their land and the factors of agricultural production, his successor military dictators did nothing to prevent money lenders and other Thai-Chinese (and corrupt military officers) from grabbing large tracts of agricultural land without restriction on size. The Thai generals would have taken the money anyway and the US could have taken a stand in favour of reciprocity.

In more recent times the US has unsuccessfully tried to secure access for US corporations to logistics and the financial sector in Thailand which are specifically excluded from the sector, although Thai firms are allowed to invest in these sectors in the US.

[jacky54]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

Edited August 24, 2014 by jacky54

[Soutpeel]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

[jacky54]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Then you would not be retired would you, and what could you work as, a teacher in your 60's, come off it.

[samran]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Not sure what people are expecting. Not many countries offer retiree visas. And very few if any offer a path to PR and citizenship for them either. Wondering why they expect Thailand to do so? Just cause they have deposited $27k in a bank account?

[Soutpeel]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Then you would not be retired would you, and what could you work as, a teacher in your 60's, come off it.

As sustento, said, if you cant make plan, you cant be serious about it then...if someones goal is citizenship or PR then they would do what needs to be done, lets face it very few countries even offer retirement visa,s anymore and of those who do even less offer PR or citizenship to someone who is retired.

I am not sure what you expect, or think you should be entitled to from Thailand.

Some of the posts on here remind of people I have been involved with employing over the year, take the job, understand and agree to the T&C of contract and salary, and the first thing they do on the job is start complaining about either their T&C or salary, which are exactly as stated in the contract.

foreigners coming to Thailand, on hopes at least, understand what they are getting into when coming to Thailand as regards, visa, PR, citizenship, "rights" but they do it none the less and then start complaining about a "lack of rights", why wont they give me PR, I want citizenship.....you knew all this before your arrived, but know you have got off the bannana boat you demand changes...

Edited August 24, 2014 by Soutpeel

[canuckamuck]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Not so easy to just get a job here. Unless you qualify to teach.

[Neeranam]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Not so easy to just get a job here. Unless you qualify to teach.

It's simple to get a teaching job if you have white skin and can speak Englsh. Even if you are over 60, with no degree, there's a school out there wanting you and can get you the necessary WP. But how many retirees are that series about getting citizenship.

[dagobert]

If you want the same rights as a Thai citizen then the answer is to become a Thai citizen. Others on Thaivisa have done it. If you think it's 'too difficult' then you aren't really serious enough about it.

Impossible if you are retired already, have to get residency first and for that need to have paid three years tax.

not impossible at all, all you do is come off the retirement visa and get a job for 3 years and pay the tax and apply...

Not so easy to just get a job here. Unless you qualify to teach.

It's simple to get a teaching job if you have white skin and can speak Englsh. Even if you are over 60, with no degree, there's a school out there wanting you and can get you the necessary WP. But how many retirees are that series about getting citizenship.

Better said how many schools are serious about giveing the acsess to a work permit ?

[kjhbigv]

I tend to agree with the OP. I am married and have a Thai kid. Been here 6 years and still have to deal with immigration/visa's etc.

The other way round, if my wife moved to the UK after a while she would effectively become a British citizen with exactly the same rights as me in the UK.

This will never happen for any of us! (Excluding the very tiny amount of individuals who gain Thai citizenship.)

[wamberal]

Here's a tip, for what it's worth. Stop referring to yourselves as "expatriates". By definition, an expatriate is somebody who has a home country, which he or she is now living away from.

Perhaps something like "long-term residents" would make more sense, and might actually mean something to the Thai authorities.

[Soutpeel]

Here's a tip, for what it's worth. Stop referring to yourselves as "expatriates". By definition, an expatriate is somebody who has a home country, which he or she is now living away from.

Perhaps something like "long-term residents" would make more sense, and might actually mean something to the Thai authorities.

lets not start this one again, ... you will have some of TV's members chocking on their cornflakes and getting all hot and flustered...

they want to be referred to as "expatriates" because they believe it gives them a "higher" status and more rights than a scummy "tourist" in Thailand...

and dont get them started on how expatriate Russian's, Indian's, Arabs etc should all be thrown out the country or be prevented from living in Thailand long term

[samran]

Here's a tip, for what it's worth. Stop referring to yourselves as "expatriates". By definition, an expatriate is somebody who has a home country, which he or she is now living away from.

Perhaps something like "long-term residents" would make more sense, and might actually mean something to the Thai authorities.

lets not start this one again, ... you will have some of TV's members chocking on their cornflakes and getting all hot and flustered...

they want to be referred to as "expatriates" because they believe it gives them a "higher" status and more rights than a scummy "tourist" in Thailand...

and dont get them started on how expatriate Russian's, Indian's, Arabs etc should all be thrown out the country or be prevented from living in Thailand long term

....and don't dare call the 'immigrants'. That's a dirty word for most.

Edited August 25, 2014 by samran

[jpeg]

The issue of 'rights' here, should have been taken up or at the very least addressed by our various embassies, most notably the British one, being they are the least helpful, (okay, couldn't give a deleted about those of us who have paid/are paying their salaries). You shouln't forget that. The nomencular 'public servant' means something in our home countries, there is no such equivalent here.

Edited August 25, 2014 by jpeg

[sustento]

I tend to agree with the OP. I am married and have a Thai kid. Been here 6 years and still have to deal with immigration/visa's etc.

The other way round, if my wife moved to the UK after a while she would effectively become a British citizen with exactly the same rights as me in the UK.

This will never happen for any of us! (Excluding the very tiny amount of individuals who gain Thai citizenship.)

It certainly won't if you don't make the effort. To gain Thai citizenship takes 3 years - to gain UK citizenship takes 5.

[thailiketoo]

The issue of 'rights' here, should have been taken up or at the very least addressed by our various embassies, most notably the British one, being they are the least helpful, (okay, couldn't give a deleted about those of us who have paid/are paying their salaries). You shouln't forget that. The nomencular 'public servant' means something in our home countries, there is no such equivalent here.

It was in the Anglo-Thai Peace Treaty signed in Singapore on 1 January 1946 ended the state of war that had existed between Thailand and the United Kingdom since the former's declaration of war of 25 January 1942 during World War II. Although the Thais had also declared war on the United States on the same day, the latter refused to recognise the legality of the declaration in light of the Japanese invasion of Thailand on 8 December 1941.

The main effect of the peace treaty was to undo the Thai annexation of the Shan States and four of the Unfederated Malay States. The British achieved less than they had hoped, largely because the United States opposed any punitive action against Thailand. They were unable, for instance, to reduce the size of Thai armed forces. The treaty did require the free delivery of up to 1.5 million tons rice, which was in surplus in Thailand, to British Malaya, where there was a shortage. It also forbade the Thais from building a canal across the Kra peninsula, which clause undercut the authority of Pridi Banomyong's government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Thai_Peace_Treaty

[thailiketoo]

Americans can own 100% of a business in Thailand. Americans got a gas dump, combat airfields and communications center during the Vietnam war. Did the war in Vietnam help Thailand avoid the fate of Laos, Cambodia, Burma and Vietnam? My unbiased opinion is; I don't know.

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight, being able to own 100% of a business is an advantage but that was also permitted by the pre-1965 treaty and anyway there were no restrictions on owning businesses or on foreign workers at the time. So it is true to say that America got nothing out of the new treaty but agreed to it to ingratiate itself to the military government. Without agreeing to the new treaty they could have still have spent the money and lives on the war and the CIA could have still financed the heroin trade back to the states. The anti-communist argument about foreign ownership of land was pure nonsense because, unlike Pibul who protected farmers' rights to their land and the factors of agricultural production, his successor military dictators did nothing to prevent money lenders and other Thai-Chinese (and corrupt military officers) from grabbing large tracts of agricultural land without restriction on size. The Thai generals would have taken the money anyway and the US could have taken a stand in favour of reciprocity.

In more recent times the US has unsuccessfully tried to secure access for US corporations to logistics and the financial sector in Thailand which are specifically excluded from the sector, although Thai firms are allowed to invest in these sectors in the US.

I don't think you really want to get into a re-hash of the Vietnam war as a number of us were in it and know from first hand experience what did and did not happen. But I do have a question. What treaty are you referring to that the Treaty of Amity (1966) replaced?

[Morakot]

lobby group

I thought corruption is illegal.

[dagobert]

It is but only if they get caught!!!

[bendejo]

OP: the nearest I have seen regarding effort to make life in LOS more accommodating for expats had to do with that fellow involved with the English-language television station in Pattaya. He's a middle-aged fellow, I think he is a Dane. He heads an organization that holds regular forums that include local authorities and farang business owners, joint social functions, etc. It seems he works hard trying to dispel the negative image that foreigners in Thailand have. In 2004 they organized fund raising and loaded up a few trucks with supplies and drove them to the tsunami-stricken areas; I thought "this guy is smart, he knows if he just handed the $$ over to a charity..." and won my respect.

It's been a few years since I've been to Pattaya so I couldn't say if he or his organizations are still around.

As for your rights in Thailand, fuggetabout.

[Time Traveller]

I think you need to be asking who/where your wife can be lobbying to change the laws regarding your citizenship.

The laws are fair IMHO. Why do they need to be changed?

married

working for 3 years earning 40k +

yellow house book

5000 baht fee

get enough points based on a few reasonable things(age/education/thai proficiency/length of stay in Thailand)

that's just to get your application accepted.....you left out the 8 years of waiting after that, and then probably more waiting....in reality, if you are lucky, you would need to be working in the same job for 10 years before you are officially a citizen.

the process is very archaic.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Time Traveller

[Kudel]

OP: the nearest I have seen regarding effort to make life in LOS more accommodating for expats had to do with that fellow involved with the English-language television station in Pattaya. He's a middle-aged fellow, I think he is a Dane. He heads an organization that holds regular forums that include local authorities and farang business owners, joint social functions, etc. It seems he works hard trying to dispel the negative image that foreigners in Thailand have. In 2004 they organized fund raising and loaded up a few trucks with supplies and drove them to the tsunami-stricken areas; I thought "this guy is smart, he knows if he just handed the $$ over to a charity..." and won my respect.

It's been a few years since I've been to Pattaya so I couldn't say if he or his organizations are still around.

As for your rights in Thailand, fuggetabout.

You are joking right ?Look on google about these people you might be very surprised about the past of some of these people and their expat clubs and charity's

[tim armstrong]

Yes, Thai visa is the only mediator between us and the Thai government.

Really?

Well maybe not the only one, but one of a few. The countries with free trade agreements are more likely to be helpful. But really, if you are Thai you can buy anything here, if you are farang, you can buy most things. End of story, money talks.

[tim armstrong]

Yes, Thai visa is the only mediator between us and the Thai government.

Really?

Well maybe not the only one, but one of a few. The countries with free trade agreements are more likely to be helpful. But really, if you are Thai you can buy anything here, if you are farang, you can buy most things. End of story, money talks.