Zidane's "header" And Red Card

[GU22]

Zinedine Zidane won the Golden Ball award for the World Cup's best player, despite being dismissed .........

To be fair, voting for this closed at half time, well before the incident.

Whatever Materazzi said, Zidane's reaction is inexcusable. He must have heard worse during his career.

BBC Radio 5 reported this morning that FIFA have said that the 4th official saw the incident when it happened, and alerted the referee. They deny that any TV replays were involved. (If you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn for sale!)

[TVLover]

There have been increasing rumours indicating that, according to some "lip reading experts" who analyzed the videos taken during the incident, Materazzi would have called ZZ's sister a 'wh-re' twice, and then insulted ZZ with an unrevealed word!

ZZ has said today that he would talk to the press and elaborate on the incident in the following days.

[jackr]

He was witnessed by.... wot.... maybe 500 million people around the world and he gets an award... ...Should have been put in Jail....

He should be a movie star.

Always liked the guy as a footballer but he's gone way up in my estimations. This Youtube version highlights the events perfectly.

[Sing_Sling]

He was witnessed by.... wot.... maybe 500 million people around the world and he gets an award... ...Should have been put in Jail....

He should be a movie star.

Always liked the guy as a footballer but he's gone way up in my estimations. This Youtube version highlights the events perfectly.

No surprise there . . .

[marshbags]

Is a headbutt more serious than a stamping in the cream crackers by the way ( W. Rooney )

I know which one i,d prefer..........................................................................

iven the choice.

marshbags

Rooney delivered his 'indiscretion' whilst in-play and on the ball. ZZ's was thought about for a few seconds , and then delivered whilst neither player had the ball(s)

Both are incorrect , but ZZ's was pre-meditated.

As for preferring the headbutt, let me know next time you're available.

[A joke , for the less intelligient of you]

As it was off the ball in Z.Z,s case and the ref had gone it was the usual reaction of giving an opponent a crafty whatever to bring them into line.

Rooneys was done in full view of the ref, that,s the difference.

Yes Z.Z. did have a premeditated thought i,m sure but as an old pro.waited his time to sort it out man to man.

Only when and if the full facts leading up to it come out can we judge his actions and decide in our heart of hearts if we should judge him.

As for the Italian what about the pre planned instructions he will have got to do this with the predicted outcome happening after 100 and odd minutes of it.

Isn,t it typical of there gamesmanship don,t you think which goes over and above the accepted level of niggling.

Yes we all know it,s part of the game and we all know they are professionals, but there is a limit.

Again my guess is that this was building up over a long period and he finally said something that made Z.Z. react.

After all, Z.Z. above all others would have weighed up the consequences long before it was acted out and finally did.

Off the ball away from the ref and again Man to Man.

How many of you can say you,ve not been pushed beyond the limit and reacted physically after repeated goes at you.

Joke taken by the way you,ll be pleased to know, thanks to your judgement and putting the fact in an intelligent and appreciated move last off.

P.S. it,s known as the " Wybourn kiss " where i come from by the way.

marshbags

Edited July 11, 2006 by marshbags

[Simmo]

There have been increasing rumours indicating that, according to some "lip reading experts" who analyzed the videos taken during the incident, Materazzi would have called ZZ's sister a 'wh-re' twice, and then insulted ZZ with an unrevealed word!

ZZ has said today that he would talk to the press and elaborate on the incident in the following days.

Reports in the French Press have Matzeratti calling ZZ a "dirty terrorist".

[tigerbeer]

his reaction to the almost goal saved by buffon displayed something about how frustrated he was throughout the game. an ending career put together whatever mentioned by materazzi had to get him to what he did.

[sbk]

As a non-serious follower of the World Cup I have to say one thing confuses me. If Zidane gets kicked out for headbutting on a video replay, why wasn't Figo kicked out too? Surely they saw that on video replay as well?

What is the difference between the two cases? I don't see any.

[Simmo]

It wasn't a video replay decision, which are not allowed. Apparently the 4th official saw the incident.

[Minburi]

Sam Nam na

He got what he deserved ..Red Card

[GU22]

Fifa deny that his dismissal was a result of a video reply. They say that the 4th official saw it live, and brought it to the ref's attention.

(If you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn for sale!)

The combined opinion of Gary Linneker, Alan Hanson, Alan Shearer and Martin O'Neill on the BBC at the time was that even if the officials had bent the rules and used a reply, they decision was correct.

Edited July 11, 2006 by GU22

[sbk]

So, it has to be a live eyewitness. No one saw Figo headbutt the Swedish player? I mean, that was pretty obviously done too.

I am not saying he didn't deserve the red card, but surely Figo did as well, how could so many officials manage to not see that one?

[mrbojangles]

Fifa deny that his dismissal was a result of a video reply. They say that the 4th official saw it live, and brought it to the ref's attention.

(If you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn for sale!)

Yep. And FIFA say they couldn't do anything to Figo, because you can't punish a player twice for the same offence. Seeing as the ref had given him a yellow (even though he hadn't seen it) FIFA couldn't do anything else. Absolute utter nonsense and again shows lack of consistency.

[sbk]

shows lack of consistency.

OK, this I understand.

[marshbags]

The following is from and article relating to " SOS Racism " a respected international

organisation.

Quote:-

Italian denies 'terrorist' jibe

ITALIAN defender Marco Materazzi has strenuously denied reports that he called Zinedine Zidane a 'dirty terrorist'.

The 32-year-old was responding to suggestions made by the Paris-based anti-racism group SOS Racism that he apparently used the phrase seconds before the France captain head-butted him in the chest in extra time.

Zidane was sent off as a result of his actions before Italy won the World Cup 5-3 on penalties after a 1-1 extra-time draw in Berlin.

SOS Racism claim well-informed sources told them of what Materazzi allegedly said to the now-retired Zidane, but the Internazionale player denies making any such statement to the former Real Madrid man. "It is absolutely not true, I did not call him a terrorist," said Materazzi. "I'm ignorant. I don't even know what the word means.

A lip-reading expert has also claimed that Materazzi called Zidane the 'son of a terrorist whore.'

The Frenchman's mother, Malika, is in hospital.

11 July 2006............................................................................

..............................unquote.

One sentence in particular stands out to me that has been quoted as being said in several articles and that is:-

"It is absolutely not true, I did not call him a terrorist," said Materazzi. "I'm ignorant. I don't even know what the word means.

Does anyone seriously believe what he says, considering the situation around the world regarding the horror and despair terrorists are causing.

This speaks volume in my opinion along with the fact that the man would be headlining every news outlet available protesting his innocence along with what he said.

Silence would appear to speak volumes also on his part.

If it is true, and it was said to me and he has said it to Z.Z along with all the other antagonism, i,d want to do more than headbutt him and i don,t think i could have waited for the ref to get out of sight.

I am also a mature, peaceful law abiding individual and deplore violence of any kind unless it is to defend an action.

These sort of remarks have no place in sport and are beyond the pale and reason in my humble opinion.

marshbags

[Plus]

I think in Figo's case none of the officials saw the headbutt, either live or on video. In Zidane's case the fourth official might have had a chance to look at the TV replay, or someone told him about it, we'll never know. The replay wasn't instant, btw.

FIFA sometimes consider punishing players well after the game but it's not a usual practice to review the whole game on video and dish out extra yellows. Figo got lucky they let him off.

[GU22]

"It is absolutely not true, I did not call him a terrorist," said Materazzi. "I'm ignorant. I don't even know what the word means.

Does anyone seriously believe what he says, considering the situation around the world regarding the horror and despair terrorists are causing.

According to the BBC it is alleged that he made the remark in English. Although he played for a short time for Everton, Matterazzi apparently speaks virtually no English. Therefore his comment "I'm ignorant. I don't even know what the word means." must be seen bearing his lack of English in mind.

However, according to Babel Fish Translation, the Italian for terrorist is terrorista! So, maybe he's being a little bit economical with the truth.

Even if he did say that, there is still no excuse for Zidane's reaction.

Interesting that the organisation that is behind this attempt to shift all the blame for this incident onto Matterazzi is "the Paris-based anti-racism group SOS Racism"

[Kan Win]

Is a headbutt more serious than a stamping in the cream crackers by the way ( W. Rooney ) No.3

Perhaps the ones who defended him can do the same for Z.Z. No.2

will be remembered for his contribution to the beautifull game as was Eric Contana, No. 1 not these sort of incidents, which are secondary.

Both players are / where brilliant the majority of the time and a definite asset to the football everywhere in the world.

marshbags

For members that missed this one –

Eric at his Best Cantona Ninja Kick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Ez9D2rsY0&search=cantonas

Yours truly,

Kan Win

[mrbojangles]

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

Ah, the good old days eh, KanWin

[aaaaaa]

not sure where you come from chonabot. not even bothered. it would do some good if you could keep your racist statements such as "spaghetti muncher" to yourself. its totally distasteful to see such posts on this forum. seriously this whole sports forum would be a better place to read if you kept away from posting. or better yet be banned from posting. the team playing yesterday can alternatively be referred to as "Italians".

Shut up you tart! I was having a laugh...

Lets have a poll to see who the users of this forum would prefer to stay away , me or you?

I doubt you would get a vote except for your own[ who are you anyway?]

Set it up Tiger.....down boy....

Careful mate. If he's a spaghetti muncher himself he might get his tank out. You know, the one with 7 reverse gears and one foreward gear in case the enemy attacks from behind.

now now! that's quite a FRAGRANCE chona spreads here once again !

as usually not simply FLAMES, but openly insults and makes persobnal attacks.

I for one won't miss you for sure.

funny that you keep making such a childish justifications - "who is better?" or "did you make 70-pages thread? no? than you're tart and spagetti muncher" etc. as if 70 pages boring stuff (well, maintained usually and mostly ONLY because other similarly minded people who is keen on been "prolific" by making smart ass twits, one-line or one smilie posts support each other thread coz for the rest it is too boring - sort of "VIPs"-club....) was the real criterium. who the <deleted> cares how many pages you've made or even how many number of posts you have ? I bet only those who also count their posts.

somehow no any Mod or Admin ever bother to say anything to him or others as him... while some other guys got suspended and even banned simply for not more than one of "mighty ones" disliking something in what they said.

I recall in Yahoo Chat rooms there is (or at least used to be) one option which allows to Block some member - all his posts won't be displayed... I bet this could be quite usefull plenty of times ! I might consider blocking chona for one.

sh1t! I opened this thread to read and comment something about Zidane - and got distracted by this FRAGRANT and sweet chona's "having a laugh" !

I hope if no any Mods or Admins restrain him, than perhaps he soon pisses off someone who might take much better laugh at him, or teach him even harder lesson....

personally I'll just ignore him from now on - simply skip all his posts....

Edited July 11, 2006 by aaaaaa

[aaaaaa]

Sam Nam na

He got what he deserved ..Red Card

yes, that's the simplest truth. and he knew that he'll get it, as well as that it'd be deserved. as someone has pointed out already (I think - or did I read it elsewhere?) - he acted more coz he had nothing to lose - he supposed to quit football anyway.

now, the Q is not about was red card deserved or not, but what he was told by that guy which made him to knowingly act in that way.

Thai TV has been duscussing at length this matter, my wife translated to me briefly that Zidanne was called terrorist and whole his family offended ...

I tried to find something about it. surprisingly, Wikipedia gave the most (and fastest) details:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zidane

2006 World Cup Final

Zinedine Zidane headbutting Marco Materazzi during the 2006 World Cup Final (animated image, video, alternate video, front angle video)On July 9, 2006, Zidane played his second World Cup final match and scored in the seventh minute from the penalty spot using a seldom-seen chip shot. He became one of only four footballers to achieve the feat of scoring in two different World Cup final matches (he scored twice in the 1998 FIFA World Cup final), sharing the honour with Pelé, Paul Breitner, and Vavá. This goal made him also one of the top goalscorers in World Cup final matches, with 3 goals, tied for first place with Vavá, Geoffrey Hurst and Pelé. He almost scored a second goal with a header during the first period of extra time but his shot was saved by Gianluigi Buffon.

He was sent off for violent conduct after headbutting Italy's goalscorer, Marco Materazzi, in the chest in the 110th minute. The game ended in a 1-1 draw and Italy won the championship after a penalty kick shootout.

Both Zidane and Materazzi refused to comment on the incident. Zidane's agent Alain Migliaccio said, "[Zidane] told me Materazzi said something very serious to him but he wouldn't tell me what."[13] Reportedly, the deaf forensic lip-reader Jessica Rees was employed to analyze the video sequences with the help of an Italian translator. According to these reports, Materazzi spoke in Italian - a language understood by Zidane due to his time spent with Juventus F.C. - and first told him: "Hold on, wait, that one's not for a nigger like you." As the players walked forward, Materazzi allegedly said: "We all know you are the son of a terrorist whore." Then, just before the headbutt, he was seen saying: "So just ###### off." [14] [15] According to Brazilian TV Rede Globo, a lip-reader claimed that Materazzi twice called Zidane's sister a prostitute.[16] Earlier claims about Materazzi having called his opponent a "dirty terrorist" have been denied by Materazzi, who reportedly said: "It is absolutely not true, I did not call him a terrorist. I'm ignorant. I don't even know what the word means." [17][18]

On July 10, 2006, Zidane was awarded the Golden Ball for the best player in the 2006 World Cup. The winner was selected by a poll of journalists covering the tournament; Zidane polled 2012 points, ahead of Fabio Cannavaro, who polled 1977 points. Most votes were cast during half-time of the final match; voting closed that night at midnight.[19][20]

Trivia

Zidane is one of the football icons of his generation and is known to be modest, quiet and admittedly shy. However, Zidane has occasionally shown a quick temper on the pitch. One such display occurred in a 2000/2001 Champions League match between Juventus Turin and Hamburger SV, in which Zidane headbutted Jochen Kientz; he received a red card for this action. He also received a red card in the 1998 World Cup for stamping on a Saudi player, allegedly in response to a racial slur.[21] In extra time of the 2006 World Cup final, he was sent off for head-butting Italy's Marco Materazzi.

Materazzi page provides a bit more:

Materazzi recounted the incident by telling Gazetta dello Sport: "I held his shirt for a few second only, then he turned to me and talked to me, jeering. He looked at me with a huge arrogance and said: 'If you really want my shirt, I'll give it to you afterwards'. I replied with an insult, that's true." He again denied the accusation that the comment was racist in nature, claiming that he "did not call him a terrorist. I am not a cultured person and I don't even know what an Islamic terrorist is." He also denied insulting Zidane's mother, saying: "I certainly didn't talk about Zidane's mother" because "for me the mother is sacred, you know that." Another recent report had alleged that Materazzi said he'd "rather take the shirt off of" Zidane's wife. According to Materazzi, it was "the type of insults that we've heard before so many times on the pitch, and sometimes we don't even notice it." [6]

Fox News :

Zidane sent off in extra time for headbutt

FOXSports.com's Jamie Trecker reports that French players told French media members that Materazzi used a racial slur which prompted the headbutt.

The strike to the center of Materazzi chest was clearly intentional, and referee Horacio Elizondo of Argentina briefly consulted with his assistants before showing Zidane the 28th red card of the tournament, a World Cup record. The previous record of 22 red cards, set in 1998, was broken before the quarterfinals round began.

His temper has always been another matter.

Playing for Juventus five years ago, Zidane butted Jochen Kientz of Hamburger SV in a Champions League match, also earning himself a red card.

Eight years ago, Zidane was red-carded for stomping on an opponent while playing Saudi Arabia. At this World Cup he collected two yellow cards and was suspended for France's third group match against Togo.

Fox's story has references to several related articles there too:

Materazzi admits insulting Zidane

FIFA to investigate Zidane sending off

photos : Zidane madness

but I think Materrazi and Co has planned something, if not exactly this, quite some time before the final game and the situation itself, because somehow it is Matterazi who is quoted in one article about how to shackle Zidane

Italy's Marco Materazzi believes the best way to stop Zinedine Zidane in the World Cup final is ...

I mean why would Materazzi, not anyone else elaborate on that subject, as said in article - "on Thursday evening"....

[TVLover]

There have been increasing rumours indicating that, according to some "lip reading experts" who analyzed the videos taken during the incident, Materazzi would have called ZZ's sister a 'wh-re' twice, and then insulted ZZ with an unrevealed word!

ZZ has said today that he would talk to the press and elaborate on the incident in the following days.

Reports in the French Press have Matzeratti calling ZZ a "dirty terrorist".

That's correct, I've read that too. And now, some other media claim that Materazzi might have told ZZ: “We all know you are the son of a terrorist whore, so just <deleted>> off!”. So, let's wait for ZZ's press conference in the next few days.

And, in the meantime, don't miss this at any cost: Materrazi's best fouls!. And enjoy the Italian comments while you watch!

(Rooney, if you happen to visit this forum, could you comment at #1?)

[ThaiPauly]

I cant help but make he comparisons between ZZ and Eric Cantona,both from the same backgrounds, both hard men...but sublimley brilliant

Having said that we all know that they play their games on short fuses and are provoked easier that others. In other words they both have problems with their temprements. Other mortals would walk away ..and I KNOW that racist comments go on all the time in football matches, but the players can not afford to react to them, or else they would be left with half a team..and NO CHANCE

Let's not forget that Cantona's Kung <deleted> kick at a Crystal Palace fan was really the begining of the end for him at Man Utd.

These top guys HAVE to rise above provocation..on this occassion Zidane failed to do this

[chonabot]

personally I'll just ignore him from now on - simply skip all his posts....

Matey , I will feel honoured if you ignore/block my posts.

You seem to be on a crusade to rubbish me , how come the Mods aren't that bothered?

If we look at my comment in context, I described, jokingly, a guy from Italy as a Spaghetti Muncher. The same chap who [allegedly] called someones Mother a " Terrorist Whore".

Hmmm......aren't we getting our knickers in a twist about a throwaway comment intended to make light of a more serious allegation? As usual there are PC brigadiers too ready to miss the real point , in their haste to be seen as doing the right thing.

One day , in the distant future , the world will be full of people who are afraid to comment on anything controversial , lest they become incarcerated for being 'honest'.

You're welcome to that world bucko.

Edited July 12, 2006 by chonabot

[aaaaaa]

we all know that they play their games on short fuses and are provoked easier that others.

These top guys HAVE to rise above provocation..on this occassion Zidane failed to do this

I agree with you - that is the reason certain people know exactly how to bait them in such a way that bait simply can't be ignored. I can imagine and perhaps even understand that for some, like ZZ, there are some things / words which cimply can't be ignored or unanswered. that is how such baits work: something is said in such a way that if person ignores that, he would seem like not a mn or something.

yes, ZZ failed as you say. however personally I can't blame him. he most probably knew he's gonna to be "tackled". for example I was told by a friend the day before final match, that Italy team has "covered" ZZ already - that at least 2 guys were sort of attached to him. means - this or similar info (as that interview with Matterazi article mentioned above) has been cirulating already before the game even started.

I also remember that ZZ has started that match appearing quite tense. and when when he converted that penalty, his reasction seemd quite strange: his face looked rather grim, may be even angry. he just raised his hand as if saying: "so, what you gonna do about it? I still scored!" no smile, no any expressions of joy or anything what usually most of players would have after scoring.

my guess it - that was because he already knew something and / or already was upset for whatever tactics Italians used, even though not even 10 mins passed.

another thing is: after whole incident he was just staying there and waiting for his due punishment with sort of resignation. he also looked devasted, like "what have I done?" and yet at the same sort of gave up already. I think for 2 reasons: 1) he had nothing to loose in terms of his personal carier; 2) he had full confidence in his team - that whether he is present or out won't make much difference. many people, including his team mates and coach, as well as fans, said so too. I myself also belive that. perhaps that was even better to end in such a way than keep usual arrangements that whole French team depend on him, while he is bound by that "tackling".

French team still could and should have converted their penalties.

Barthez couldn't save even 1 goal, as Buffon did at least. this hardly has anything to do with ZZ. same as that case when Rooney was blamed by some for England's defeat. (BTW Rooney also was baited / provoked in unfailable way)

it is already known what was said to him more or less. right now I'm more interested about - what he was telling to referee after red card was shown - was he indignant, trying to justify himself, or what?

one other moment I remember - Italian goalkeeper Buffon patting him and telling something, seemed like some calming words or apology. ZZ had face of deep regret and I think almost cried.

and he went straight to changing room, not talking to anyone.

he wasn't present at rewards ceremony. I mean - man definetely had full realization of what he's done. but I think he just couldn't help it. because perhaps some things can't be helped.

yes, sad that it has happened - but I am convinced that he was especially provoked, which I think is dirty trick to do.

yesterday when Thai TV was showing the program regarding this, many people were sending SMS mesages with full supprt for ZZ. and some were saying something like : Italy has won on the field, but in in heart (or people's hearts?). I agree with that - if whole thing has been planned / pre-arranged in advance (not necessarily that Materazzi already knew what, when and how to say, although it is possible - since earlier incident of ZZ'd headbutting another player has happened in Italy while he played for Juventus) - that is nasty, I think !

what sort of football that is, if people know that they can't win if play fairly, and therefore plan some dirty tricks to achive the result by hook or crook:

Hat trick

Marco Materazzi of Italy places an Italian hat onto the world cup trophy.

Edited July 12, 2006 by aaaaaa

[GU22]

aaaaaa, there is merit in what you say, but can I just clarify a couple of points?

he went straight to changing room, not talking to anyone......he wasn't present at rewards ceremony.

Having been sent off, he had no option. He had to go straight to the dressing room, and would not have been allowed back to collect his medal, regardless of the result.

[Sing_Sling]

aaaaaaaaaa - relax, mate. There are far more offensive people on this board than the WC manipulator of scores, aka Chonabot.

If you are Italian I am sure he would clarify his statement, but it's a Brit sense of humour - how many times have I been called a sauerkraut - ask lampard - and it's only offensive if you take it as such.

There is a different type of humour in England that most others would find offensive - they even call themselves bastards as a term of endearment. Well . . . . no comment.

The next time you feel like insulting an Englishman simply ask them which NHS dentists did their teeth!

Or refer to my tagline, no-one has complained to me about that and it simply says that English food sucks and English women are ugly. (a joke, of course )

Edited July 12, 2006 by Sing_Sling

[mrbojangles]

aaaaaaaaaa - relax, mate. There are far more offensive people on this board than the WC manipulator of scores, aka Chonabot.

If you are Italian I am sure he would clarify his statement, but it's a Brit sense of humour - how many times have I been called a sauerkraut - ask lampard - and it's only offensive if you take it as such.

There is a different type of humour in England that most others would find offensive - they even call themselves bastards as a term of endearment. Well . . . . no comment.

The next time you feel like insulting an Englishman simply ask them which NHS dentists did their teeth!

Or refer to my tagline, no-one has complained to me about that and it simply says that English food sucks and English women are ugly. (a joke, of course )

That is not an Englishman sing_sling. I met that guy in Patters this year. I think he was called Helmut SchweinKhopf (sp) and that decay is from sauerkraut left to rot in between his teeth

As for the banter, your'e absolutely right. We can laugh at ourselves just as much as laugh at other nations. Just look at the banter between the Aussies and ourselves.

As for you tag line, quite good for a kraut that

[chonabot]

aaaaaaaaaa - relax, mate. There are far more offensive people on this board than the WC manipulator of scores, aka Chonabot.

If you are Italian I am sure he would clarify his statement, but it's a Brit sense of humour - how many times have I been called a sauerkraut - ask lampard - and it's only offensive if you take it as such.

There is a different type of humour in England that most others would find offensive - they even call themselves bastards as a term of endearment. Well . . . . no comment.

The next time you feel like insulting an Englishman simply ask them which NHS dentists did their teeth!

Or refer to my tagline, no-one has complained to me about that and it simply says that English food sucks and English women are ugly. (a joke, of course )

Blimey what a set of gnashers....

Cheers for the support SS, I think aaaaaaa has already made up his mind about me.

I shall contact the website aaaa hates me for some advice on how to deal with his hatred.

Edited July 12, 2006 by chonabot

[Sing_Sling]

aaaaaaaaaa - relax, mate. There are far more offensive people on this board than the WC manipulator of scores, aka Chonabot.

If you are Italian I am sure he would clarify his statement, but it's a Brit sense of humour - how many times have I been called a sauerkraut - ask lampard - and it's only offensive if you take it as such.

There is a different type of humour in England that most others would find offensive - they even call themselves bastards as a term of endearment. Well . . . . no comment.

The next time you feel like insulting an Englishman simply ask them which NHS dentists did their teeth!

Or refer to my tagline, no-one has complained to me about that and it simply says that English food sucks and English women are ugly. (a joke, of course )

That is not an Englishman sing_sling. I met that guy in Patters this year. I think he was called Helmut SchweinKhopf (sp) and that decay is from sauerkraut left to rot in between his teeth

As for the banter, your'e absolutely right. We can laugh at ourselves just as much as laugh at other nations. Just look at the banter between the Aussies and ourselves.

As for you tag line, quite good for a kraut that

Indeed his name is Helmut Schweinkopf, but his parents moved to Swindon when he was 6 years old . . . and it's not from sauerkraut, more like black pudding . . .