"Knee Defender" on flights, what do you think ?

[MediaWatcher]

Emster23, on 28 Aug 2014 - 10:15, said:

I think knee defender is a misnomer. Perhaps "space hog" would be more appropriate: User wants as much space for self, hang it if person ahead has to be uncomfortable. Blatant attempt to get more than what paid for, at your expense. Perhaps preflight instructions should include section on how to recline seats: start with taking most weight pressure off back of seat, informing person behind etc. I have yet to fly on airline where all seats are not checked for being upright before takeoff... or during meals.

I have a problem with the way you think, you call the person behind a "space hog" but it is you who when reclining increases your space by reducing theirs, who really is the "space hog." It is also you who by making yourself more "comfortable" causes the person behind to be less comfortable. Really a very unusual way of thinking.

[JesseFrank]

JesseFrank, on 28 Aug 2014 - 21:13, said:

wwest5829, on 28 Aug 2014 - 18:51, said:

JesseFrank, on 27 Aug 2014 - 21:57, said:

If the person behind me would use such a device I would smash his knee caps.

I pay for a seat that can be reclined, so does the person behind you, so what gives him the right to restrict your comfort.

Nice...how kindly...thanks for adding kindness toward your fellow humans.

Perhaps, rather than setting one customer against another, an angry reaction might be directed toward the airlines who are packing the cattle class travelers into an increasingly uncomfortable flying experience.

So you consider it a kindness to your fellow humans when forcing them to sit upright for 14 hours by using such a device, only because you don't like they recline their seats ?

Strange understanding of kindness you have.

Jesse..."kindness" goes BOTH ways, at the beginning of the flight your seat is upright, when you recline YOU change the environment. Consideration to others if NOT your forte.

Don't know why I still bother to reply to you, but lets see.

At the beginning of the flight the seat is upright, because that is how it is supposed to be during landing and take off.

While the long haul flight proceeds the seat is declined for the comfort of the passenger, because that is why the declining function is made available to him in the first place.

Of course it changes the environment of the passenger sitting behind, who on his turn is able to decline his seat as well, changing his own environment again to a more comfortable.

You will have noticed already that when reclining your own seat, the position of your knees will lower as your legs will stretch, thereby not interfering anymore with the reclined backrest of the seat in front of you.

Of course if you refuse to make it yourself comfortable by reclining your seat, you can't blame the passenger in front for that, but it clearly indicates that consideration to others is not your forte.

If an airplane seat wasn't supposed to be reclined, I would think that the airliner would have ordered cheaper fixed backrest seats in the first place. So, why don't you take it up with the airline companies ?

[MediaWatcher]

JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:

Don't know why I still bother to reply to you, but lets see.

At the beginning of the flight the seat is upright, because that is how it is supposed to be during landing and take off.

While the long haul flight proceeds the seat is declined for the comfort of the passenger, because that is why the declining function is made available to him in the first place.

Of course it changes the environment of the passenger sitting behind, who on his turn is able to decline his seat as well, changing his own environment again to a more comfortable.

You will have noticed already that when reclining your own seat, the position of your knees will lower as your legs will stretch, thereby not interfering anymore with the reclined backrest of the seat in front of you.

Of course if you refuse to make it yourself comfortable by reclining your seat, you can't blame the passenger in front for that, but it clearly indicates that consideration to others is not your forte.

If an airplane seat wasn't supposed to be reclined, I would think that the airliner would have ordered cheaper fixed backrest seats in the first place. So, why don't you take it up with the airline companies ?

I guess what we have shown is that some people consider their comfort more important than others, and expect others to adjust to suit. To me this still seems to be a me me me attitude expecting the world to change simple for them. From what you say, if the person in the front seat reclines then ALL those behind should recline in order to regain space, in order to reduce eye stress watching a movie or reading a book, which you if recline the overhead lights are not positioned to cast onto the book. Yes, someone is selfish, I wonder which one.

[JesseFrank]

JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:

Don't know why I still bother to reply to you, but lets see.

At the beginning of the flight the seat is upright, because that is how it is supposed to be during landing and take off.

While the long haul flight proceeds the seat is declined for the comfort of the passenger, because that is why the declining function is made available to him in the first place.

Of course it changes the environment of the passenger sitting behind, who on his turn is able to decline his seat as well, changing his own environment again to a more comfortable.

You will have noticed already that when reclining your own seat, the position of your knees will lower as your legs will stretch, thereby not interfering anymore with the reclined backrest of the seat in front of you.

Of course if you refuse to make it yourself comfortable by reclining your seat, you can't blame the passenger in front for that, but it clearly indicates that consideration to others is not your forte.

If an airplane seat wasn't supposed to be reclined, I would think that the airliner would have ordered cheaper fixed backrest seats in the first place. So, why don't you take it up with the airline companies ?

I guess what we have shown is that some people consider their comfort more important than others, and expect others to adjust to suit. To me this still seems to be a me me me attitude expecting the world to change simple for them. From what you say, if the person in the front seat reclines then ALL those behind should recline in order to regain space, in order to reduce eye stress watching a movie or reading a book, which you if recline the overhead lights are not positioned to cast onto the book. Yes, someone is selfish, I wonder which one.

What I say is that people are allowed to make use of the comfort that is provided to them. Which part is it that you don't understand ?

And to explain selfish to you.

Take the example that you are sitting on thesecond to last last row in the plane, and decide to read a book for the entire duration of the flight.

So in your understanding, as you explain in above post, the person in front of you should not recline his seat, as that will make your reading and seating uncomfortable.

But because that person isn't allowed to recline his seat, because of the discomfort to you, the passenger in front of him is also not allowed to recline his seat for the same reasons.

So is the one in front of that passenger, and the one in front and the one in front until and including the seat on the first row.

So because YOU on the second to last row want to read a book, the entire plane is not allowed to recline their seat.

You still wonder who is the selfish one ?

Edited August 29, 2014 by JesseFrank

[MediaWatcher]

JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:41, said:

MediaWatcher, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:35, said:

JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:JesseFrank, on 29 Aug 2014 - 10:26, said:

Don't know why I still bother to reply to you, but lets see.

At the beginning of the flight the seat is upright, because that is how it is supposed to be during landing and take off.

While the long haul flight proceeds the seat is declined for the comfort of the passenger, because that is why the declining function is made available to him in the first place.

Of course it changes the environment of the passenger sitting behind, who on his turn is able to decline his seat as well, changing his own environment again to a more comfortable.

You will have noticed already that when reclining your own seat, the position of your knees will lower as your legs will stretch, thereby not interfering anymore with the reclined backrest of the seat in front of you.

Of course if you refuse to make it yourself comfortable by reclining your seat, you can't blame the passenger in front for that, but it clearly indicates that consideration to others is not your forte.

If an airplane seat wasn't supposed to be reclined, I would think that the airliner would have ordered cheaper fixed backrest seats in the first place. So, why don't you take it up with the airline companies ?

I guess what we have shown is that some people consider their comfort more important than others, and expect others to adjust to suit. To me this still seems to be a me me me attitude expecting the world to change simple for them. From what you say, if the person in the front seat reclines then ALL those behind should recline in order to regain space, in order to reduce eye stress watching a movie or reading a book, which you if recline the overhead lights are not positioned to cast onto the book. Yes, someone is selfish, I wonder which one.

What I say is that people are allowed to make use of the comfort that is provided to them. Which part is it that you don't understand ?

The part that makes you believe you have the right to make others uncomfortable... As the comments here show, there are those that want to recline and those that don't, it also shows that there are those who do not care about others comfort, perhaps a Thai compromise, recline only half way....but I suspect there would be "recliners" here who do not believe in compromise. I personally will continue to fake coughing and sneezing.

[Bung]

Wow, some amazing comments here about reclining your seat. Of course you can recline your seat! What are you supposed to do on a 12 hour + flight? Everyone sits bolt upright? Or everyone can get comfortable! The only one misses out is the last seat in the cabin up against the bulkhead and if you are stupid enough to end up in one of those then too bad.

Just show some courtesy when doing it, do it slowly and bring it up for meals. Pretty obvious courtesy there. Even with a seat reclined in front of you the space is ok if you really want to sit upright the whole way but who would do that? It's crazy!

Now babies on aeroplanes is another thing all together. Don't get me started on that! (Should be banned. If you want children stay at home until they are old enough to behave themselves!)

[Rimmer]

A personal attack on another member has been removed also a quoted reply:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[jmccarty]

I have counted, more for than against. Guess we will be seeing some changes!

[JesseFrank]

I have counted, more for than against. Guess we will be seeing some changes!

I think you should recount. Because the same poster posts 10 times he is for, doesn't mean that are 10 votes.

[jmccarty]

I have counted, more for than against. Guess we will be seeing some changes!

I think you should recount. Because the same poster posts 10 times he is for, doesn't mean that are 10 votes.

That was not a serious response. I don't expect we make the rules by whatever count we have here!

But we can always wish.

[inzman]

I had an idiot punching my seat on a London -NY flight. Everyone was sleeping. Warned him several times, as he sat in his seat reclined. Finally did it one too many times, I jumped up and held my fist to him, he turned white with fear, I was pisses, the person next to hi. Switched seats to calm us all down. But the FA didn't seem to care at all. Why is it that some people believe it's ok for them to recline, but they don't want the person in front to recline. Pure selfishness.

[californiabeachboy]

What this thread tells me, regardless of whether the knee defender is polite or not, is how miserable long distance flights have become.

I like the fact that the knee defender is in existence, not because it's use is good or bad, but because maybe it will cause the airlines to pause, momentarily, from reducing the pitch between seats to a distance that is a problem for them (fights/arguments between passengers, having to teach the flight attendants to recognize the knee defender,etc.). We can only hope.

[jmccarty]

What this thread tells me, regardless of whether the knee defender is polite or not, is how miserable long distance flights have become.

I like the fact that the knee defender is in existence, not because it's use is good or bad, but because maybe it will cause the airlines to pause, momentarily, from reducing the pitch between seats to a distance that is a problem for them (fights/arguments between passengers, having to teach the flight attendants to recognize the knee defender,etc.). We can only hope.

Ditto that, too bad airlines need to be profitable to exist. That's what drives them to make flying sardine cans! I don't see an answer aside from re-desiging space onboard and I don't see or have an answer for that.

I have googled and found no better ideas of using the space available.'

Until then, maybe a few sites offer some advice on seating choice, try this one: http://www.airlinequality.com/Experience/SeatChoice.htm

[yermanee]

What this thread tells me, regardless of whether the knee defender is polite or not, is how miserable long distance flights have become.

I like the fact that the knee defender is in existence, not because it's use is good or bad, but because maybe it will cause the airlines to pause, momentarily, from reducing the pitch between seats to a distance that is a problem for them (fights/arguments between passengers, having to teach the flight attendants to recognize the knee defender,etc.). We can only hope.

I don't think it will cause airlines to rethink their strategies.

The fact is as long as the ticket price, regardless of comfort offered, remains the number one priority for passengers, airlines know they can get away with delivering a substandard service, and to be honnest why shouldn't they.

Yermanee

[Jingthing]

On a long flight you may hesitate to put your seat down but when the person in front of you does ... you probably will too. If you're blocked in back, you are truly screwed. Again, at meal times flight attendants ENFORCE raising seats anyway ...

[FritsSikkink]

Sounds a great idea.

I have no time for the ignorant people who within minutes of sitting down recline their seat and crush my knees.

I usually then do not bother with the meal as I cannot open the tray.

I do make sure that I push my knees into their back for the entire journey.

I have no time for inconsiderate people.

If I see someone sitting behind me I never recline my seat.

It is a stupid idea. The seats are made and sold to recline.

To push your knees into their back is inconsiderate.

The other option is to sit in a contorted way that makes you uncomfortable. It isn't inconsiderate to sit normally even if it means the person in front get knees in the back if they choose to be inconsiderate. It's shared space. If you try to claim it for yourself and make someone else uncomfortable, don't expect them to make way for you.

When you push your knees in the back of the person in front of you, then you are not sitting normally. If you recline your seat, you are. What is the use of a reclining seat if you cant recline it.

[David48]

On a long flight you may hesitate to put your seat down but when the person in front of you does ... you probably will too. If you're blocked in back, you are truly screwed. Again, at meal times flight attendants ENFORCE raising seats anyway ...

"Again, at meal times flight attendants ENFORCE raising seats anyway ..."

Humm ... our experiences are different on that one.

Have done the international trip into/out of Thailand more then 40 times ... never see the request to raise the seat to the upright position once when meals are served.

Take off and Landing ... they police it strongly ... but never during meal times.

Maybe it's just the respective policies of the different airlines we fly.

.

[transam]

I had a night flight once and they gave us stickers (do not disturb) if we didn't want to be woken up to eat. Just stick it on your forehead whilst in your fully reclined seat............. ................

[richard_smith237]

Wow, some amazing comments here about reclining your seat. Of course you can recline your seat! What are you supposed to do on a 12 hour + flight? Everyone sits bolt upright? Or everyone can get comfortable! The only one misses out is the last seat in the cabin up against the bulkhead and if you are stupid enough to end up in one of those then too bad.

Just show some courtesy when doing it, do it slowly and bring it up for meals. Pretty obvious courtesy there. Even with a seat reclined in front of you the space is ok if you really want to sit upright the whole way but who would do that? It's crazy!

Now babies on aeroplanes is another thing all together. Don't get me started on that! (Should be banned. If you want children stay at home until they are old enough to behave themselves!)

Not only babies, I think Fat People, Tall People, Loud Snorers, those who can't handle their drink and get rude should also be prevent from flying...

There are a number of daft comments on this thread - mine above just complete the silliness.

We, for the most part, live in a free world - all people should be free to travel, all people should aim to be respectful and polite of those around them, especially when in close proximity to others, especially when in the close confines of air travel.

Those who wish to exercise their right by reclining their seat when in Economy Class should be courteous especially with timing. Those in the seat behind need to be acceptant and tolerant.

I choose to avoid flying in Economy Class in part to avoid the idiots who feel its ok to 'dig their knees' in etc and get into these childish battles.

I also travel with a child (8 months old). On our most recent (12 hr) flight a few days ago we did our utmost to keep our child content, happy and quiet... I believe he posed no disturbance to other passengers and much less so than the idiot who became vocally aggressive when drunk. Others in the same cabin may not have noted the presence of an infant.

My Wife and I pay our fare (and our childs tax), I have the right to take my child on a flight. A right which is equal to anyone else's on a flight, that right must also be accompanied with the responsibility to be respectful, courteous and tolerant.

If my infant child becomes noisy, I'll remove him from the Cabin and calm him in the kitchen area to avoid as much disturbance to others. Its a parents responsibility to keep their child content and quiet, which isn't possible 100% of the time, but persistent effort needs to be made.

Bung: If airlines offer child free flights at higher prices would you be willing to pay the extra?

I believe this would be a solution for those who wish for infant free flights.

That said, on my last flight the disturbances came not from children, but from one drunk passenger who became aggressive and another drunk passenger who persisted in talking to us for over an hour while we were trying to rest.

Thus: should alcohol also be banned ? (off topic)

[Jingthing]

Hmm.

This is interesting.

Personally I would never ask a stranger person in back if it's OK to recline, especially if the person in front of has done so already. I don't think that is realistic and I don't think that really happens very often. Nobody doing so in front has ever asked me either.

I do try to be sensitive to better times to do this ... when lights are turned off on long flights ... and when I go back I do so SLOWLY which I guess I think is the least I can do in consideration.

http://digg.com/2014/who-will-defend-the-knee-defender

So, what should you do? To start, engage the passenger behind you. Make eye contact. Ask them if they're okay with you reclining your seat. Listen to their response. Process it. Choose one: Sore knees, or a sore person sitting behind you.

[bikerlou47]

But the real culprit is the airline - they should leave enough leg room for tall people.

Am I wrong?

You are right the airlines are continuing to increase their profits by many means

Charging extra for exit row seats

Charging for baggage

Charging for drinks and foods

And reorganizing the configuration of seats

This problem will continue until all the seats will have a permanent upright position

Ahh the fun of air travel! Lol

[HidyHo]

"Again, at meal times flight attendants ENFORCE raising seats anyway ..."

Humm ... our experiences are different on that one.

Have done the international trip into/out of Thailand more then 40 times ... never see the request to raise the seat to the upright position once when meals are served.

I fly SIN to BKK return flight at least once a month (for last three years) and travel to USA once or twice a year. I fly Singapore Air most of the time and they do enforce raising the seat at meal time.

[wwest5829]

If the person behind me would use such a device I would smash his knee caps.

I pay for a seat that can be reclined, so does the person behind you, so what gives him the right to restrict your comfort.

Nice...how kindly...thanks for adding kindness toward your fellow humans.

Hmm, if they have their tray down for 14 hours blocking you from any reclining I would say they are not being considerate of you. But, again, I think the answer is to take out concerns on the airline not all of us uncomfortable passengers taking out our frustration on each other.

Again, my point:

Perhaps, rather than setting one customer against another, an angry reaction might be directed toward the airlines who are packing the cattle class travelers into an increasingly uncomfortable flying experience.

So you consider it a kindness to your fellow humans when forcing them to sit upright for 14 hours by using such a device, only because you don't like they recline their seats ?

Strange understanding of kindness you have.

[David48]

"Again, at meal times flight attendants ENFORCE raising seats anyway ..."

Humm ... our experiences are different on that one.

Have done the international trip into/out of Thailand more then 40 times ... never see the request to raise the seat to the upright position once when meals are served.

I fly SIN to BKK return flight at least once a month (for last three years) and travel to USA once or twice a year. I fly Singapore Air most of the time and they do enforce raising the seat at meal time.

I don't fly Singapore ... but given that it's roughly a 2 hour flight SIN-BKK, in reality is it a real comparison to the issue being discussed?

Just educate me ... in the just over 2 hour flight, do Singapore Airlines do a full service meal?

Asking ... not telling.

Thanks

.

[HidyHo]

Just educate me ... in the just over 2 hour flight, do Singapore Airlines do a full service meal?

I've had full service meal on both Singapore and Thai airlines on SIN->BKK route. I've also had meals purchased on Air Asia (on website and on the plane). I have flown both business and economy class on this route (depending on who's paying for the flight).

I remember Sin airline experience the most as I fly this airline frequently and have had experiences where flight attendant will request a person to put seat upright during meal service (even waking up sleeping person). I can't remember Thai and Air Asia and seat/meal experience to post my opinion.

.

[Jingthing]

The airlines I fly ... YES ... the wonderful flight attendants do indeed have no problem WAKING up people during meals.

[David48]

Just educate me ... in the just over 2 hour flight, do Singapore Airlines do a full service meal?

I've had full service meal on both Singapore and Thai airlines on SIN->BKK route. I've also had meals purchased on Air Asia (on website and on the plane). I have flown both business and economy class on this route (depending on who's paying for the flight).

I remember Sin airline experience the most as I fly this airline frequently and have had experiences where flight attendant will request a person to put seat upright during meal service (even waking up sleeping person). I can't remember Thai and Air Asia and seat/meal experience to post my opinion.

Thanks for the reply.

I would have 'liked' it, but have run out for the moment.

I used to fly Singapore and like them a lot as an Airline, but I've moved Cities and are served directly by a choice of LCC now.

[denby45]

On overnight flights I always recline and sleep and have usually not been disturbed except for once a kid behind me kept bashing the touch screen all night (Who's bright idea was that?). Only on one occasion have I had a problem with my seat not reclining and of course I was unaware of this device so I just thought the seat was broken and cursed my bad luck. Probably the smart a$$ behind me had one of these devices and I did not know otherwise I would have taken him/her to task. Now about the raising of the seat again at mealtimes I am definitely not against this and I believe it probably should be enforced by the FA. I never take meals on overnight flights because I would rather sleep. If they do enforce the raising of the seat rule then they should make damn sure they get the meal served promptly. If I have to wait until they have dished out the drinks and stupid peanuts or biscuits and then disappear for an hour then dish out the meal and collect the trays it is already halfway through the flight. Waste of valuable sleeping time.

Den

[David48]

Have your say in the-great-reclining-seat-debate-meal-service

.

[tw25rw]

Had a mother and kid playing snap on the tray table on the back of my seat one. My dirty looks were returned even dirtier by the bitch mother. Luckily it was only a SYD-MEL flight lasting an hour.