chiang mai Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 As for the OP I'm not sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london True or not? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755463-does-britain-have-a-jihadi-problem/page-7#entry8319045 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) Is it immigrants? No. Is it Asians? No. Does the British media manage to confuse the issue of Islamic extremism using sloppy language? Yes. The question is, is it Islamic extremism or Islam? Is Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an the problem and the problem as a whole? This is the real question that needs to be answered and it can only be answered by Muslims. The Muslim Council of Britain needs to be clear on this and It's time for the Imams to make their case either way. Edited August 30, 2014 by MJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_lucas Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 From my experience of reading and posting here, I have always found 7B7's posts to be balanced, informative and accurate. Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain needs to be clear on this and It's time for the Imams to make their case clear either way. Like this? Muslim Council of Britain urges anyone who knows 'Jihadi John's' identity to come forward as it calls for action to tackle young men being radicalised Or this? Not in our Name: British Muslims Condemn the Barbarity of ISIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 From my experience of reading and posting here, I have always found 7B7's posts to be balanced, informative and accurate. Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 As neither of your links are to posts I have made, they don't actually prove anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain needs to be clear on this and It's time for the Imams to make their case clear either way. Like this? Muslim Council of Britain urges anyone who knows 'Jihadi John's' identity to come forward as it calls for action to tackle young men being radicalised Or this? Not in our Name: British Muslims Condemn the Barbarity of ISIS Good. Improves confidence it's not Islam as a whole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_lucas Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) From my experience of reading and posting here, I have always found 7B7's posts to be balanced, informative and accurate. Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 As neither of your links are to posts I have made, they don't actually prove anything! Right, they were made by Morch and myself replying your posts and anyone who will take more than the 1 second you took to look at them and your referred posts in them will see that they prove exactly what I wrote. Nice deflection attempt. Edited August 30, 2014 by dr_lucas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The so called Muslim council of Britain is just a joke, it's a PR group not elected by anyone and all males as far as I know. They say one thing in public but have other views in private and have about as much credibility as a monk in a brothel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 From my experience of reading and posting here, I have always found 7B7's posts to be balanced, informative and accurate. Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 As neither of your links are to posts I have made, they don't actually prove anything! They certainly prove habitual dishonesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosha Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 As for the OP I'm not sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london True or not? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755463-does-britain-have-a-jihadi-problem/page-7#entry8319045 My paternal grandmothers family were mill owners in Batley Carr. (Fossett's I think) She was disowned for falling for a working class lad. Those mill owners did not accept the industry was doomed. I wish I could go back and show them what they left us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Ok, let's say a girl and boy, both Muslim and both 17 are caught kissing behind the house. They're taken to a Sharia tribunal and the girl is sentenced to 5 lashes by a stout cane and the boy 20. British jurists don't agree with such a law, but so what? The Muslim elders are going to take the kids and slash them bloody for being promiscuous before marriage (and/or because they're from different sects, and/or because the girl was already promised to a 70 year old man, or whatever). What is the British magistrate going to say, after the fact? "I say old bean, yes, you chaps with the funny hats, please don't beat your kids to a bloody pulp. I hope I don't hear of this happening again. I may have to make a mention to the proper authorities." What is it about "MAT will operate within the legal framework of England and Wales thereby ensuring that any determination reached by MAT can be enforced through existing means of enforcement open to normal litigants." that you don't understand? In a scenario such as you describe, those responsible for the beating would be arrested and prosecuted in the criminal courts; rightly so. The answer is clear. During stage one of Jihad the principle of Sharia operating at all, even within the legal framework of the Country in question sets a precedent. As stage two nears the boundaries are pushed to test for how malleable the host society is. How about vigilantes ridding the steets of intoxicated people or prostitutes anywhere near a mosque. How about objecting to the bacon fumes from the local transport cafe that's been there for forty years. How about ridding school canteens of anything haram. Five prayer breaks at work would be nice, but let's object to Christmas or Easter festivities as Muslims feel excluded. How about violent riots when French legislation rolls back one aspect of Sharia by banning face coverings in public. How about rioting when cartoons are drawn of Mohammad, but burning the Union Jack or vandalizing churches elicits no comment. By the time we get to stage three just look at Iraq to see the full horror of Sharia. It's a game of incremental change over time. Incidentally Jewish laws apply to Jews alone and don't have precedence over the law of the land, they also only apply to Jews and not the entire population. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I actually have no real interest in Hamas vs Israel, sad I know but true, if 7B7 has a view on that subject I would imagine it to be his view and I don't know or care if anyone thinks he's right or wrong, it's a debate and a personal opinion. And come to think of it, I don't actually know any thing about 7B7's views on any other subject, I would expect him to have views and strong opinions on a range of issues, most people do, What I do know is that whenever I have read 7B7's remarks he has always been balanced and he is more than capable of robust debate and defense, that aspect seems to have upset some folks, granted I haven't read every word he has written! So when a reasonable person is attacked for their views in a debate, be they agreed with or otherwise, it's only sensible for attackers to provide the attackee with specifics, I believe that is what is being asked for here, nay, is required here, not links, not one liners, where's the beef? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) The face of Islammism in the UK,have the Muslim council routinely spoken out against this man?, what are your views 7x7 and simple1? let me guess, he's not a real Muslim and the majority of Muslims disagree with him. Well a lot of them do and he wants to ban gays, the Queen, booze, gambling, pornography, and pop music,sounds like a lot of fun! Edited August 30, 2014 by jacky54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 As for the OP I'm not sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london True or not? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755463-does-britain-have-a-jihadi-problem/page-7#entry8319045 My paternal grandmothers family were mill owners in Batley Carr. (Fossett's I think) She was disowned for falling for a working class lad. Those mill owners did not accept the industry was doomed. I wish I could go back and show them what they left us. My family was Velmar in Batley, HQ in Nairn, we should get together and make carpets some day! Seriously, small world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Constantly I am accused by the hate filled clique of making excuses for the murders and other atrocities by terrorist groups, of protecting random killings, of excusing the rape and sexual abuse of children, of being an apologist for the people who commit these crimes I challenge any of those making these accusations to produce a single post where I have done so. You can't; because there are none. The old red herring defense - a fake argument to draw attention away from the real one. I don't see anyone accusing you of anything other than making excuses and justifications for terrorist groups and all anyone has to do is look at the Hamas threads to see that it is true. You defect from Hamas's crimes constantly and usually come up with some spin about how their crimes are someone else's - usually Israel's - fault. This is your modus operandi for any misdeeds committed by radical Islam. UG, lovely man that you are: 7B7 has an entirely valid viewpoint, provide examples, please. My view is that his views have always been reaosable thus I don't undertand what the fish fight is about, evidence perhaps Where is the validity of calling other posters haters just because they disagree with him, not to mention accusations of racism and bigotry. It's pointless asking for a quote war, we can all read so please stick to the subject of the thread. i do suspect some are trying to get it closed by attempting to turn things personal. Jacky, put up (link) or shut up, end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain needs to be clear on this and It's time for the Imams to make their case either way.People in general and deists in particular can justify anything. They're adept with words and can say the right thing at the right time to appease/hoodwink others. Words don't prove much. ACTIONS COUNT. Muslims can say 10,000 times they're a 'religion of peace' - but then look what their brethren are doing in the name of Allah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The face of Islammism in the UK,have the Muslim council routinely spoken out against this man?, what are your views 7x7 and simple1? let me guess, he's not a real Muslim and the majority of Muslims disagree with him. Well a lot of them do and he wants to ban gays, the Queen, booze, gambling, pornography, and pop music,sounds like a lot of fun! Well that's Boyzone <deleted> then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain needs to be clear on this and It's time for the Imams to make their case either way.People in general and deists in particular can justify anything. They're adept with words and can say the right thing at the right time to appease/hoodwink others. Words don't prove much. ACTIONS COUNT. Muslims can say 10,000 times they're a 'religion of peace' - but then look what their brethren are doing in the name of Allah. Bit like Mars Attacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I surmise that Cameron and other British authorities have a strategic outlook that looks something like this: "Granted, many Muslims are coming to reside in Britain in large numbers. There are problems, but as time goes by, the population will age and hopefully mellow. Their offspring and the non-stop influx of Muslims will (again hopefully) assimilate to western values, and most will become decent tax-paying citizens." It's somewhat similar to the scenario which has been happening in the SW USA: Mexicans and other Latins keep coming in the US in droves. Most assimilate and become productive citizens over time. There's a lot more to it, of course. One big difference between the US's and Britain's scenarios is, the Latinos aren't out to try to ideologically take over the US and impose Sharia Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosha Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 As for the OP I'm not sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london True or not? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755463-does-britain-have-a-jihadi-problem/page-7#entry8319045 My paternal grandmothers family were mill owners in Batley Carr. (Fossett's I think) She was disowned for falling for a working class lad. Those mill owners did not accept the industry was doomed. I wish I could go back and show them what they left us. My family was Velmar in Batley, HQ in Nairn, we should get together and make carpets some day! Seriously, small world Dad worked there, he was a sign writer. This is spooky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 From my experience of reading and posting here, I have always found 7B7's posts to be balanced, informative and accurate. Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 As neither of your links are to posts I have made, they don't actually prove anything! Right, they were made by Morch and myself replying your posts and anyone who will take more than the 1 second you took to look at them and your referred posts in them will see that they prove exactly what I wrote. Nice deflection attempt. If you are going to use what I have posted to justify the attacks made upon me; you would do better to post links to what I, myself, have written. Not to post by people commenting on cherry picked quotes from my posts. Even if one does follow back to my actual posts; nothing I have said in any of them justifies the accusations thrown at me in this topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) Jacky, put up (link) or shut up, end of. Just read his old posts, and I will not shut up, end of. Just to remind you the thread is does the UK have a Jihadist problem, not bickering about who said what. Edited August 30, 2014 by jacky54 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 My family was Velmar in Batley, HQ in Nairn, we should get together and make carpets some day! Seriously, small world Dad worked there, he was a sign writer. This is spooky. Did he have a slight limp. swarthy complexion, white grey hair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary.They are an organisation representing many other Muslim organisations in the UK.Just as the Board of Deputies of British Jews are an organisation representing many other Jewish organisations in the UK.Neither organisation, of course, is in any way connected to the British government; though as representative organisations I am sure their views are sought on matters which concern them.Something which may surprise many here is the joint statement recently issued by the MCB and the BDBJ.British Jews and Muslims Call for Peace, Wisdom and Hope over Conflict in Israel and Palestine (I've linked to the statement on the BDBJ site so that no one can claim it's Muslim lies!) It is sad, but predictable, that some people here instead of applauding the Muslim community and it's representatives for their attempts to stop the radicalisation of British Muslim youths, simply denigrate them and call them liars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Jacky, put up (link) or shut up, end of. Just read his old posts, and I will not shut up, end of. Just to remind you the thread is does the UK have a Jihadist problem, not bickering about who said what. Backing down as gracefully as you can? Try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosha Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 My family was Velmar in Batley, HQ in Nairn, we should get together and make carpets some day! Seriously, small world Dad worked there, he was a sign writer. This is spooky. Did he have a slight limp. swarthy complexion, white grey hair? No left in 71 ill health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jacky54 Posted August 30, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary. Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences." There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_lucas Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary. Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences." There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. And there is a third form to deal with non-believers, called ISIS, that's when they don't need to lie to anyone anymore....555555 (j/k) Edited August 30, 2014 by dr_lucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_lucas Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 (edited) Although I never read 7by7 posts on other threads, I can tell you for a fact that his posts on the Israel (or call it Hamas) threads are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, to put it mildly: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753528-israel-pm-vows-further-gaza-campaign/?p=8305227 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752179-what-israel-must-do-now/?view=findpost&p=8259275 As neither of your links are to posts I have made, they don't actually prove anything! Right, they were made by Morch and myself replying your posts and anyone who will take more than the 1 second you took to look at them and your referred posts in them will see that they prove exactly what I wrote. Nice deflection attempt. If you are going to use what I have posted to justify the attacks made upon me; you would do better to post links to what I, myself, have written. Not to post by people commenting on cherry picked quotes from my posts. Even if one does follow back to my actual posts; nothing I have said in any of them justifies the accusations thrown at me in this topic. Those "cherry picked" quotes of yours me and Morch replied to, prove that your are severely imbalanced and inaccurate, at least on those threads. I was replying directly to the false & general claim saying you are "balanced, informative and accurate". While you may or not be on other topics (and I said that I don't know about them), this can definitely not be said about you in the context of the Israel/Hamas and IRA/Hamas posts. Edited August 30, 2014 by dr_lucas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR250 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 The Muslim Council of Britain have regularly condemned extremists; including Anjem Choudary. Oh dear you will be telling us next Islam is a religion pf peace, have you never heard of taqiya? Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in a minority to promote their cause and to smooth things over. Why have you brought Jews into this thread, it has nothing to do with them. From the religion of 'peace'.com site Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences." There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances,taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. Actually, the western culture teaches the use of lying to "smooth over differences" and practices a variety of approved forms of lying as well. Ever heard of "the little white lie"? And what is the acceptable answer when your wife asks "Does my bum look too big in this"? Or, more seriously, what does the physician say when confronted by the question:"So, is it terminal doc? How long have I got?" Clearly your post infers that you are indeed a knowledgeable student of Islam - and as I am not, perhaps you would be so kind as to refer me to the section of the Quran where it says lying is approved under those circumstances that: "typically .. advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them". This seems very odd to me, however in deference to your scholarship, I will of course scrutinise the source you provide with care. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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