Does Britain have a jihadi problem?

[7by7]

Hence their resorting to insults and ridiculous accusations about me apologising for and excusing crimes and atrocities.

I may have you mistaken for another pro-Islam poster but haven't you called others 'racist', 'prejudiced', 'bigots' etc.?

When people have posted racist remarks, prejudiced insults or bigoted lies; yes.

I have also called people ignorant when they have posted ignorance.

The difference being that I have never posted anything which could remotely be construed as apologising for or excusing crimes or atrocities.

[Steely Dan]

Here is the follow up to the original channel 4 dispatches documentary. Hopefully I can post the link, though with an iPad it's a bear trying.

Note after the first documentary promises were made to stop hate preachers - this should clear up any lingering doubts about. Taqiyya and put the various claims of moderates that some posters link to in context.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Steely Dan

[chiang mai]

@ sustento. Individuals. Show me lots of feet on the streets. especially in South and West Yorkshire

Did the Catholics turn out on the streets when the IRA blew Manchester up?

Yes, but you couldn't see us for all the Christians!

[7by7]

<snip>

many imams and the MCB and other representatives of the British Muslim community do regularly speak out against and condemn the radicalisation of British Muslim youths, Muslim street gangs, the abuse of children etc.

But when they do the Islamaphobes either cry 'too little' or simply say they are lying!

@ Sustento

Your attachments are laughable to say the least.

These Imam's cannot be taken seriously, regardless of what they say.........

Q.E.D.

until they start publicly naming and shaming all the bampots that have been clearly identified in all the videos and pictures that have been published.

Clearly identified? Really?

If so, the police and security services must know who these clearly identified people are!

As posted earlier, the MCB has called on anyone who can identify the killer of James Foley or other British jihadists to contact the police.

[7by7]

Hence their resorting to insults and ridiculous accusations about me apologising for and excusing crimes and atrocities.

I may have you mistaken for another pro-Islam poster but haven't you called others 'racist', 'prejudiced', 'bigots' etc.?

When people have posted racist remarks, prejudiced insults or bigoted lies; yes.

I have also called people ignorant when they have posted ignorance.

The difference being that I have never posted anything which could remotely be construed as apologising for or excusing crimes or atrocities.

It's not 'racist' if they are out to get you:thumbsup:

...gatesofvienna.net......educate yourself to the other side's views.

"I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me!"

It is racist to blame all people of a certain race or ethnic group for the activities of a minority of that group.

I don't need to educate myself to the views of sites like the one you suggest; their views are well known.

[JockPieandBeans]

<snip>

many imams and the MCB and other representatives of the British Muslim community do regularly speak out against and condemn the radicalisation of British Muslim youths, Muslim street gangs, the abuse of children etc.

But when they do the Islamaphobes either cry 'too little' or simply say they are lying!

@ Sustento

Your attachments are laughable to say the least.

These Imam's cannot be taken seriously, regardless of what they say.........

Q.E.D.

until they start publicly naming and shaming all the bampots that have been clearly identified in all the videos and pictures that have been published.

Clearly identified? Really?

If so, the police and security services must know who these clearly identified people are!

As posted earlier, the MCB has called on anyone who can identify the killer of James Foley or other British jihadists to contact the police.

Are you trying to tell me you have not seen them ?

Do you really want me to start posting links ?

Whether the police and / or security services have identified them or not is irrelevant. The muslim community that that they come from in the UK, know who they are. Their silence is deafening.

[7by7]

"Clearly, no responsible Muslim would claim the actions of either (the Rotherham child abusers or Jihadists) were anything other than a betrayal of their faith....."

- alleged quote from Lord Ahmed

Alleged quote?

Are you saying the Daily Mail made the quote up?

As for the rest of you nonsense; it is just that.

[7by7]

until they start publicly naming and shaming all the bampots that have been clearly identified in all the videos and pictures that have been published.

Clearly identified? Really?

If so, the police and security services must know who these clearly identified people are!

As posted earlier, the MCB has called on anyone who can identify the killer of James Foley or other British jihadists to contact the police.

Are you trying to tell me you have not seen them ?

Do you really want me to start posting links ?

Whether the police and / or security services have identified them or not is irrelevant. The muslim community that that they come from in the UK, know who they are. Their silence is deafening.

Seen whom? The killers of James Foley? Young British Muslims fighting for IS?

Only their pictures in the press, and I didn't recognise any of them.

But, whilst I do have Muslim work colleagues and friends, I don't know all of the 2.7 million Muslims living in the UK.

I doubt that they all know or would recognise each other, either!

Do you know all the Brits living in Thailand? Would you recognise a photo of one who you had never met?

The MCB, and others, have called on those who do recognise these people to inform the police. How many people have contacted the police, we don't know as obviously, for sound security reasons, the police aren't going to tell us.

[Ulysses G.]

The difference being that I have never posted anything which could remotely be construed as apologising for or excusing crimes or atrocities.

Only the terrorist groups that commit them.

[anon676545345]

When people have posted racist remarks, prejudiced insults or bigoted lies; yes.

I have also called people ignorant when they have posted ignorance.

The difference being that I have never posted anything which could remotely be construed as apologising for or excusing crimes or atrocities.

It's not 'racist' if they are out to get you:thumbsup:

...gatesofvienna.net......educate yourself to the other side's views.

"I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me!"

It is racist to blame all people of a certain race or ethnic group for the activities of a minority of that group.

I don't need to educate myself to the views of sites like the one you suggest; their views are well known.

It's a great way to get out of meaningful political discussion when a political ideology such as Islam can't be discussed because apparently it violates racial and religious sensitivities. The number of conflicts across the globe involving muslims and the troubles in European countries with large Islamic populations should be visible through even the most rose tinted glasses, something is definitely amiss.

[7by7]

^^^^

Except, of course, it is discussed; not only across the internet but in the mainstream media.

[JockPieandBeans]

Seen whom? The killers of James Foley? Young British Muslims fighting for IS?

Only their pictures in the press, and I didn't recognise any of them.

But, whilst I do have Muslim work colleagues and friends, I don't know all of the 2.7 million Muslims living in the UK.

I doubt that they all know or would recognise each other, either!

Do you know all the Brits living in Thailand? Would you recognise a photo of one who you had never met?

The MCB, and others, have called on those who do recognise these people to inform the police. How many people have contacted the police, we don't know as obviously, for sound security reasons, the police aren't going to tell us.

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse ?

I clearly said, the muslim communities that they slithered out of will clearly recognise them. Or was that too hard for you to understand ? As I said, their silence is deafening.

[7by7]

The difference being that I have never posted anything which could remotely be construed as apologising for or excusing crimes or atrocities.

Only the terrorist groups that commit them.

I am not going round in circles again.

You have made this accusation many times before and many times I have asked you to prove it.

On one occasion you produced one heavily edited quote from a post of mine, but even that didn't prove your accusation!

You really, really must try harder.

Too poor to grade.

[arjunadawn]

But when they do the Islamaphobes either cry 'too little' or simply say they are lying!

I invite you to consider not using "Islamophobes" as a blanket to silence opponents, please. Islamophobe has intentionally been designed as a pejorative to suggest meanness of the labeled, perhaps treachery, and silence anyone it is tossed at. Perhaps it is similar to "antisemite"- which means, however- anti Semitic. "Islamophobe" does not even suggest the pejorative for which it is used; it means Islamic fear. It is an utterly exact word.

I have fear of Islam. Why should a conclusion I reach, irrespective of any action I take in the physical world, impugn me? I read endless news feeds regarding Islam throughout the world today, and I do have fear. I look at the UK's and US's muslim men currently fighting overseas (and the horrible excesses) and potentially bringing this back to the US or Europe; I fear Islam. I see the beheadings, and crucifixions, and various horrific acts against other human beings, and I fear Islam. I see an endless stream of recitation and citation of verse and sura and hadith and Islamic exegesis to justify every manner of jihadi terror; I fear Islam. I watch as the various Islamic countries are seeking anti blasphemy laws through the United Nations, to subsequently be binding on states, silencing free speech, free discourse, however displeasing it may be; I fear Islam. I see countless billions of dollars funneled through the various money trails- from the nozzle in our gas tank, to the sandy deserts kingdoms- and into terrorist pockets; I fear Islam!

I fear Islam because the west is complicit in using Islam as a tool to unseat liberal democracy and conservative institutions and traditions, a shared early aim with the western left; this is frightening. The Religion of Peace actually has an ongoing body count each day (See website appropriately titled Religion of Peace); throughout the world nations are on fire with the religion of Submission. A cursory look at the modus operandi of Islamic expansion in the past reveals nothing is new in the current collective deportment of muslims moving forward, into infidel lands, and setting up muslim communities; indeed, they look to Islamic records for instruction of current behavior, as updated and continually pushed by the Mufti and other scholars (Qadarawi) to insinuate into the west and consume the west from within (this rule/law of migration having first been established via hijra by the prophet by his migration north). Listen to the muslim people speaking to muslim people, citing verse and authority, and declaring they are coming to the west and bringing the sword. Why cant folks understand this needs no further elaboration? Yes, I am terrified of Islam. However, this does not make me a hater or a candidate to be removed from discourse.

How could any human being tell me the things I observe mean something else, or even could have another meaning; its news? I am not even interpreting what the news events mean. I am only stating that they are events, every day, reported all throughout the world, on numerous news-feeds and they speak for themselves. Therefore, its stipulated they cannot be something else- its just news! How then, can any human being consider the endless stream of escalating violence (NEWS) throughout the world and not have fear? How can any human being rationally not be an "Islamophobe?"

You or others may dissemble and huff and puff but I have made little in the way of interpretation above. All I have done is cite facts that I read news today, and that it scares me. This is not worthy of a pejorative label. Therefore, the use of the term "Islamophobe" actually identifies the user with intellectual vacancy. I would like to have this word back. When I announce I am an "Islamophobe" I don't want there to be any ambiguity. I want people to really know that I am deathly (pun intended) of Islam.

[7by7]

Seen whom? The killers of James Foley? Young British Muslims fighting for IS?

Only their pictures in the press, and I didn't recognise any of them.

But, whilst I do have Muslim work colleagues and friends, I don't know all of the 2.7 million Muslims living in the UK.

I doubt that they all know or would recognise each other, either!

Do you know all the Brits living in Thailand? Would you recognise a photo of one who you had never met?

The MCB, and others, have called on those who do recognise these people to inform the police. How many people have contacted the police, we don't know as obviously, for sound security reasons, the police aren't going to tell us.

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse ?

I clearly said, the muslim communities that they slithered out of will clearly recognise them. Or was that too hard for you to understand ? As I said, their silence is deafening.

How do you know that people who do know them and can identify them have not already done so to the police?

You don't; because for sound security, and legal, reasons the police are not going to say.

Publicly naming them now, whether done by the police or a member of their community, would be highly irresponsible as it could prejudice any future trial.

What is it about that which you don't understand?

Of course, as other criminal cases have shown, if the media find out who they are then their names and faces will be splashed all over the place.

[JockPieandBeans]

How do you know that people who do know them and can identify them have not already done so to the police?

You don't; because for sound security, and legal, reasons the police are not going to say.

Publicly naming them now, whether done by the police or a member of their community, would be highly irresponsible as it could prejudice any future trial.

What is it about that which you don't understand?

Of course, as other criminal cases have shown, if the media find out who they are then their names and faces will be splashed all over the place.

I dont know if they have been named to the police. I also do not care. What I did say, is that I would take the muslim community seriously if they publicly named and shamed them. You can try and twist my words anyway you want, it wont work.

Please, do not try and insult my intelligence. Why is it that we can name alleged offenders in 30 year old alleged sexual abuse cases. However, if they happen to be muslim, it would be prejudicial to name them prior to a possible criminal case. Double standards or what. You do understand what double standards are ?

Strange that you did not have anything to say about my dissection of the so called Fatwa. I wonder why that would be ? Have a reread at my dissection, and if you have anything constructive to add, please come back to me, I will be happy to explain it further to you.

[7by7]

But when they do the Islamaphobes either cry 'too little' or simply say they are lying!

I invite you to consider not using "Islamophobes" as a blanket to silence opponents, please. Islamophobe has intentionally been designed as a pejorative to suggest meanness of the labeled, perhaps treachery, and silence anyone it is tossed at. Perhaps it is similar to "antisemite"- which means, however- anti Semitic. "Islamophobe" does not even suggest the pejorative for which it is used; it means Islamic fear. It is an utterly exact word.

I picked up the habit from Jingthing's constant use of the word 'Judeophobe' to describe anti Semitism and the hatred and fear of Jews.

BTW, Oxford Dictionaries:

Islamaphobia: Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

From Wikipedia

Islamophobia is a term for prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Muslims or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim. While the term is widely recognized and used, both the term and the underlying concept have been criticized

As for your interpretation of what you read and see in the media and the irrational fear it instils in you, I can't help you there.

Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is a problem, and a problem which must be dealt with. But tarring all Muslims and all of Islam with that brush will only make matters worse, not better.

[Ulysses G.]

On one occasion you produced one heavily edited quote from a post of mine, but even that didn't prove your accusation!

Sure it did. You just denied the obvious like you always do.

You also kept denying that there were preconditions for the IRA talks with the UK - something that you repeated over and over again - even when someone produced conclusive evidence that you were wrong. People don't bother with your requests to "prove" things, because all you do is pretend that there is no there there. You seem to think that your intellectual dishonesty is not obvious to almost everyone.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

How do you know that people who do know them and can identify them have not already done so to the police?

You don't; because for sound security, and legal, reasons the police are not going to say.

Publicly naming them now, whether done by the police or a member of their community, would be highly irresponsible as it could prejudice any future trial.

What is it about that which you don't understand?

Of course, as other criminal cases have shown, if the media find out who they are then their names and faces will be splashed all over the place.

I dont know if they have been named to the police. I also do not care. What I did say, is that I would take the muslim community seriously if they publicly named and shamed them. You can try and twist my words anyway you want, it wont work.

Please, do not try and insult my intelligence. Why is it that we can name alleged offenders in 30 year old alleged sexual abuse cases. However, if they happen to be muslim, it would be prejudicial to name them prior to a possible criminal case. Double standards or what. You do understand what double standards are ?

You don't care if they've been named to the police? Why? Don't you want them arrested and tried?

You obviously do not understand the law in the UK.

The police did not name the suspect in the case you refer to; the media discovered it and named him. The police still refer to him as "a 73 year old male."

As I said above, "as other criminal cases have shown, if the media find out who they are then their names and faces will be splashed all over the place" and the case you refer to is a perfect example of that.

Strange that you did not have anything to say about my dissection of the so called Fatwa. I wonder why that would be ? Have a reread at my dissection, and if you have anything constructive to add, please come back to me, I will be happy to explain it further to you.

I didn't comment on it as it is total &lt;deleted&gt;.

It merely proves what I said earlier; no matter what the Muslim community or their representatives do or say, you and those of a similar outlook will always rubbish it, say it's not enough or that they are lying.

[anon676545345]

I invite you to consider not using "Islamophobes" as a blanket to silence opponents, please. Islamophobe has intentionally been designed as a pejorative to suggest meanness of the labeled, perhaps treachery, and silence anyone it is tossed at. Perhaps it is similar to "antisemite"- which means, however- anti Semitic. "Islamophobe" does not even suggest the pejorative for which it is used; it means Islamic fear. It is an utterly exact word.

I picked up the habit from Jingthing's constant use of the word 'Judeophobe' to describe anti Semitism and the hatred and fear of Jews.

BTW, Oxford Dictionaries:

Islamaphobia: Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

From Wikipedia

Islamophobia is a term for prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Muslims or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim. While the term is widely recognized and used, both the term and the underlying concept have been criticized

As for your interpretation of what you read and see in the media and the irrational fear it instils in you, I can't help you there.

Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is a problem, and a problem which must be dealt with. But tarring all Muslims and all of Islam with that brush will only make matters worse, not better.

Hmmmmmm of course not everyone representing a political cause is a bad egg I'm sure there were some jolly nice members of the nationalist sotialist party and everything could have been reolved peacfully if it wasn't for those darn Naziophobes.

[7by7]

On one occasion you produced one heavily edited quote from a post of mine, but even that didn't prove your accusation!

Sure it did. You just denied the obvious like you always do.

You also kept denying that there were preconditions for the IRA talks with the UK - something that you repeated over and over again - even when someone produced conclusive evidence that you were wrong. People don't bother with your requests to "prove" things, because all you do is pretend that there is no there there. You seem to think that your intellectual dishonesty is not obvious.

'Someone' did not produce conclusive evidence that I was wrong. Go back and read all the posts in the relevant topics rather than just the ones you agree with.

You may continue with your childishness; all it proves is how devoid of real arguments you, and those who 'like' your posts, actually are.

[Ulysses G.]

'Someone' did not produce conclusive evidence that I was wrong.

Of course they did. dr_lucas posted a link to a newspaper story that proved that there were preconditions for the IRA talks with the UK and you kept trying to deny it anyway. You are still trying to deny it. See what I mean?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[JockPieandBeans]

Arrested and tried ? No, I would much rather that they were executed.

I do understand UK Law. It is indeed an ass.

I think you will find that the Police gave his name to the press.

Just for you, here it is again:

As for their Fatwa :

Quote

3. By murdering prisoners of war, journalists and civilians, including mosque imams who

refused to endorse their campaign, and by enslaving the women and children of their

opponents, ISIS has violated international agreements such as the Geneva Conventions and

conventions on slavery that everyone, including Muslims, have signed up to. God says in the

Qur’an, “Believers, fulfil your covenants!” (5:1)

1. Muslims have signed up to the Geneva Convention ? Really ? Countries sign up to the Geneva Convention, not groups of people.

2. Ergo, you cannot violate it if you are not a signee.

Quote

6. British and other EU citizens are bound by their duties to their home countries according to

Islamic theology and jurisprudence: it is therefore prohibited (haram) to travel to fight with

any side in Syria, including non-state actors, since this is forbidden by laws in EU countries.

7. It is a moral obligation upon British Muslims to help the Syrian and Iraqi people without

betraying their own societies: “If they ask for your help in religion, you must help, except

against a people with whom you have a treaty.” (Qur’an 8:72)

How many of these scumbags believe that they are UK or EU citzens ? They will always consider themselves to be citizens of whatever sh!thole they come from.

Just for further clarification

Quote

Due to recent events in the Middle East and their impact on some people in Britain, we as imams

and scholars based in the UK, would like to issue the following clarifications in the form of a fatwa:

Based in the UK, NOT citizens of the UK

Impact on some people in the UK. A veiled reference to the tide is beginning to turn against them ?

Now, please explain what I have said is &lt;deleted&gt; . Perhaps it does not fit your agenda, that does not make it &lt;deleted&gt; .

Edited August 31, 2014 by JockPieandBeans

[arjunadawn]

I picked up the habit from Jingthing's constant use of the word 'Judeophobe' to describe anti Semitism and the hatred and fear of Jews.

BTW, Oxford Dictionaries:

Islamaphobia: Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

From Wikipedia

Islamophobia is a term for prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Muslims or of ethnic groups perceived to be Muslim. While the term is widely recognized and used, both the term and the underlying concept have been criticized

As for your interpretation of what you read and see in the media and the irrational fear it instils in you, I can't help you there.

Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is a problem, and a problem which must be dealt with. But tarring all Muslims and all of Islam with that brush will only make matters worse, not better.

It still escapes me how passive activity such as fear, whether rational or otherwise, is something that should receive community rebuke. How does one even know if someone has fear if its so private, and passive? Well, the person opens their mouth; they say something, anything, and as long as it is not contrary to proscribed and canned responses, they are okay. There is no doubt this is thought policing, pushing the boundaries of political correctness in action, to preemptive political correctness in potential.

I don't think the use of "judeophobe" would be fair use either. As an example of how utterly absurd that title is in regard to Jew Fear you should ask yourself when was the last time jews said they were coming to the US or UK to eat matzaballs on the white-house lawn, Re Write British laws from Deuteronomy or Numbers, screw our goats,defile our churches, make our women wear veils, and force us to have jerry curls in our hair cuts? Never, because Jews don't say that to the west. Jews dont declare everyday that they are coming to change our way of life, or put us to the sword. So, the use of "Judeophobe" is clearly irrational and not based on anything factual; I agree on that point.

Note: Irrespective a dictionary source for common use meaning, islamophobe means Fear of Islam. I just want my word back. If my distillation of the endless parade of death in the news in the name of Peace is irrational, than I can grasp just how lost the west really is. In any event, thanks for your response.

[sustento]

@ Sustento

Your attachments are laughable to say the least.

These Imam's cannot be taken seriously, regardless of what they say, until they start publicly naming and shaming all the bampots that have been clearly identified in all the videos and pictures that have been published.

Then laugh away. The reason I don't usually take part in threads like this (apart from sprinkling the occasional fact amongst the froth) is that people like you wouldn't be willing to change your mind one iota even if every Muslim in the UK made a pilgrimage to your house, prostrated themselves on your doorstep and apologised to you personally.

[MJP]

Well, as a secular humanist I'm really not looking forward to living in the UK caliphate. Best just cut my head off now.

[JockPieandBeans]

@ Sustento

Your attachments are laughable to say the least.

These Imam's cannot be taken seriously, regardless of what they say, until they start publicly naming and shaming all the bampots that have been clearly identified in all the videos and pictures that have been published.

Then laugh away. The reason I don't usually take part in threads like this (apart from sprinkling the occasional fact amongst the froth) is that people like you wouldn't be willing to change your mind one iota even if every Muslim in the UK made a pilgrimage to your house, prostrated themselves on your doorstep and apologised to you personally.

I'm not laughing.

It is far too serious for that.

[JockPieandBeans]

An interesting read

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4112/islamization-britain#

[MJP]

The greatest threat is from the ignorance within . . . the left-wing . . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11065878/Labour-MPs-Left-ignored-sex-abuse.html

At the same time, Simon Danczuk, the Labour MP for Rochdale, revealed that even now some of his colleagues disapproved of his efforts to uncover child abuse, because some were “obsessing about multiculturalism”.

Edited August 31, 2014 by MJP

[Mister Fixit]

YES!!! Over the past several years in England the militants etc. have hidden behind the protection of the governments "politically correct" agenda. "Do not say anything to offend them", we are multicultural, why is it though that in their country there is no such thing as multicultural? well, it is too late, they have taken over I am sad to say.

p.s. It is a well known fact that by the year 2021 their will be enough muslims in the uk to vote in an islamic government....

Current Muslim population of all ages in the UK is around 5%, so how will their be sufficient numbers of eligable Muslim voters by 2021 to vote in an 'Islamic government'.

It has been estimated Muslims in the UK will grow to approx 10% of the population by 2050.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

Mohammed is now the most common christian name in Britain.

Mohammed? A Christian name? A Muslim name, more like. How can a Muslim have a Christian name? What an (oxy)moron!

I think you mean a 'first name' or 'given name' which is far more appropriate.