Does Britain have a jihadi problem?

[canman]

I foresee a backlash, within 5 years of moderate Muslims in UK against radicalized Muslims. Guess who will win.

The day that moderate Muslims stand against their brother Muslims or march against the bad ones in the UK is the day hell freezes over.

Although I wish otherwise I fear that you are correct.

[canman]

I found Sam Harris's argument in his book The End of Faith somewhat persuasive that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism.

What's the difference between a society that demands actual religious adherence, and one that bans religion entirely? Both are authoritarian. 'Seems to me the closest a society can come to real freedom is to be one that simply makes religion a personal choice, and does not allow one's practice (or choice not to practice) to infringe (truly infringe; not some make believe "emotional injury") upon someone else's free choice. Atheists have persuaded the weak-minded that any suggestion of religious practice anywhere in the public commons is a personal afront and works some sort of mental anguish on them which must be rooted out & crushed at all costs. And so, atheism itself acquires many of the characteristics of a "religion", or at least a certain "zealotry", and unfortunately one that everybody must bow down to.

I made no mention what so ever about banning any religious belief nor implied, or intended to imply, any hint of authoritarianism. I only noted one book whose argument on how to respond to Islam I personally found persuaive. I did not elaborate the argument, you should read the book for that purpose, nor did I say that there were no alternative arguments out there. I have no problem with public displays of piety and in previous threads I have been one to defend some of the missionaries up in Chiang Mai because I have been befriended by a few of the older families and find them to be good people. I understand that there are some atheists out there who indeed project a holier-than-thou persona. I am not one of those people and I actually prefer to refer to myself as a non-theist.

YOU said y-o-u found it "somewhat persuasive [a bit limp-wristed, I'll grant you] that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism". My point is that atheism, the way its adherents are progressively forcing it on the west, depends on coercion, as does Islam. It's a tyranny, too. And since atheists don't have the eggs to take on Islam, their disparagement of and endless legal challenges to open practice of Christianity and Judaism but hands-off posture when it comes to Islam helps embolden and empower Muslims who then see themselves on the rise. This lack of even-handedness is not something atheists should be proud of...

The only effective response to radical islam and the pig dog islamists which propogate this vile hate is to treat it as a virulent disease with high mortality. You must use similar strategies and tactics to stop the disease spreading. You must be quick, ruthless, uncompromising and without emotion in first containing the pathogen and it's hosts to prevent the spread and the inevitable geometric growth of the disease. Once that is established it is possible to evaluate options for ridding the world of the disease.

[hawker9000]

What's the difference between a society that demands actual religious adherence, and one that bans religion entirely? Both are authoritarian. 'Seems to me the closest a society can come to real freedom is to be one that simply makes religion a personal choice, and does not allow one's practice (or choice not to practice) to infringe (truly infringe; not some make believe "emotional injury") upon someone else's free choice. Atheists have persuaded the weak-minded that any suggestion of religious practice anywhere in the public commons is a personal afront and works some sort of mental anguish on them which must be rooted out & crushed at all costs. And so, atheism itself acquires many of the characteristics of a "religion", or at least a certain "zealotry", and unfortunately one that everybody must bow down to.

I made no mention what so ever about banning any religious belief nor implied, or intended to imply, any hint of authoritarianism. I only noted one book whose argument on how to respond to Islam I personally found persuaive. I did not elaborate the argument, you should read the book for that purpose, nor did I say that there were no alternative arguments out there. I have no problem with public displays of piety and in previous threads I have been one to defend some of the missionaries up in Chiang Mai because I have been befriended by a few of the older families and find them to be good people. I understand that there are some atheists out there who indeed project a holier-than-thou persona. I am not one of those people and I actually prefer to refer to myself as a non-theist.

YOU said y-o-u found it "somewhat persuasive [a bit limp-wristed, I'll grant you] that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism". My point is that atheism, the way its adherents are progressively forcing it on the west, depends on coercion, as does Islam. It's a tyranny, too. And since atheists don't have the eggs to take on Islam, their disparagement of and endless legal challenges to open practice of Christianity and Judaism but hands-off posture when it comes to Islam helps embolden and empower Muslims who then see themselves on the rise. This lack of even-handedness is not something atheists should be proud of...

The only effective response to radical islam and the pig dog islamists which propogate this vile hate is to treat it as a virulent disease with high mortality. You must use similar strategies and tactics to stop the disease spreading. You must be quick, ruthless, uncompromising and without emotion in first containing the pathogen and it's hosts to prevent the spread and the inevitable geometric growth of the disease. Once that is established it is possible to evaluate options for ridding the world of the disease.

I've long thought we should stop thinking of Islam as a "peaceful" religion, and start thinking of it instead as a blood cult. Many will whisper "but that's not me!" in protest, to be heard, as intended, by almost nobody. You can't treat ebola with two aspirin and a vitamin C. Let it progress, and it'll kill you. Let it spread, and it'll kill millions. ('Sorry, 'limit reached and had to delete the original quote that would help readers make more sense of this discussion...)

[Johpa]

YOU said y-o-u found it "somewhat persuasive [a bit limp-wristed, I'll grant you] that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism". My point is that atheism, the way its adherents are progressively forcing it on the west, depends on coercion, as does Islam. It's a tyranny, too. And since atheists don't have the eggs to take on Islam, their disparagement of and endless legal challenges to open practice of Christianity and Judaism but hands-off posture when it comes to Islam helps embolden and empower Muslims who then see themselves on the rise. This lack of even-handedness is not something atheists should be proud of...

I don't know which atheists you encounter,but there are some of us who eschew the tyranny of political correctness. May I suggest listening to any one of Britain's most famous Internet atheist's videos on YouTube, those of Pat Condell, as just one example of one who is only too happy to take on Islam. And perhaps you might enjoy the rather recent monologue posted by the American atheist Sam Harris, to whom you seem to have taken exception. I think that Harris's last line has frightening relevancy to what is happening in the UK today.

[Mosha]

I foresee a backlash, within 5 years of moderate Muslims in UK against radicalized Muslims. Guess who will win.

Just a different take (we are going to the same place). I do not think there will be a significant backlash from moderate muslims at all. I think we will see an increasing pool of radicals reaching a fever pitch and while the intuition might be this will cause moderates to finally announce themselves collectively and reject jihad, the moderates will instead retreat further into silent uncertainty, their silence further creating more moral authority of the jihadists (as if they needed more).

It is not for the average man, who just wants to raise his family in peace, and his wife who wants to be a mother, and both who seek to worship the god of their ancestors, to rise to the public podium and enter the battle of ideas on the side of moderation. There is no reason in the practice of their lives that we should insist this is their responsibility- except one vital thing! History has thrust upon those like this the duty of the vanguard in protecting civilization, to ensure tomorrow for their progeny, and give their lives and the words of their god legitimacy. History places such muslims in the battle whether they wish to be present or not. Their silence is a choice.

"Moderate" muslims are the canary in the coal mines of our times. Their silence informs us of only one thing!

Remember the Luton video, when the reporter was talking to a "moderate" imam.

"We don't know them, they don't come to this mosque."

That's about as stinging as it'll get from the majority of them.

[Ulysses G.]

YOU said y-o-u found it "somewhat persuasive [a bit limp-wristed, I'll grant you] that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism". My point is that atheism, the way its adherents are progressively forcing it on the west, depends on coercion, as does Islam. It's a tyranny, too. And since atheists don't have the eggs to take on Islam, their disparagement of and endless legal challenges to open practice of Christianity and Judaism but hands-off posture when it comes to Islam helps embolden and empower Muslims who then see themselves on the rise. This lack of even-handedness is not something atheists should be proud of...

I don't know which atheists you encounter,but there are some of us who eschew the tyranny of political correctness. May I suggest listening to any one of Britain's most famous Internet atheist's videos on YouTube, those of Pat Condell, as just one example of one who is only too happy to take on Islam. And perhaps you might enjoy the rather recent monologue posted by the American atheist Sam Harris, to whom you seem to have taken exception. I think that Harris's last line has frightening relevancy to what is happening in the UK today.

That is a great video. He is as little too critical of religion, in general, for my tastes, but he makes his points well and certainly has it right on Israel. I just forwarded it to all my friends on both sides of the political spectrum. You are right about Pat Condell too. Another atheist, but I love his work.

[submaniac]

British 'jihadist' mum threatens to behead Christians: reports

London (AFP) - A middle-aged British mother-of-two and former rock band member has joined jihadists in Syria and wants to behead Christians with a "blunt knife", British media reported.

The reports identified the woman as Sally Jones, 45, from Kent in southeast England, and said she now goes by the name Sakinah Hussain, or Umm Hussain al-Britani.

Security experts estimate that hundreds of Britons have gone to the Middle East to join the Islamic State (IS) militant group, the most brutal to emerge out of Syria's bloody civil war and the most successful

http://news.yahoo.com/british-jihadist-mum-threatens-behead-christians-reports-113331874.html

Apparently Sally Jones, the mother of two, was living in a council house in Kent and had been on public assistance the entirety of her life.

If only she had devoted the effort she put into Jihad into writing a book about a boy wizard...

[H1w4yR1da]

Jesus!

What a minger! The IS are welcome to her.

You notice it's never the hot chicks that go and join the Jihad, just fuglies looking for a boyfriend.

[MJP]

Jesus!

What a minger! The IS are welcome to her.

You notice it's never the hot chicks that go and join the Jihad, just fuglies looking for a boyfriend.

I dunno. Scrubs up well in the top right hand pic.

I now understand the Niqab.

[Scott]

A general discussion of religion is off-topic and further such posts will be deleted.

Please stay on topic.

[loogkreung]

Interesting video on Hitchens views on Islam in Britain.

[loogkreung]

Interesting video on Hitchens views on Islam in Britain.

Thought I'd embedded a video, but it's gone

[arjunadawn]

YOU said y-o-u found it "somewhat persuasive [a bit limp-wristed, I'll grant you] that the only intellectually coherant response to Islam is atheism". My point is that atheism, the way its adherents are progressively forcing it on the west, depends on coercion, as does Islam. It's a tyranny, too. And since atheists don't have the eggs to take on Islam, their disparagement of and endless legal challenges to open practice of Christianity and Judaism but hands-off posture when it comes to Islam helps embolden and empower Muslims who then see themselves on the rise. This lack of even-handedness is not something atheists should be proud of...

This above post best clarifies my muddy observations regarding the insane alliance between the left and radical islam. I really applaud you. I always affirmed radical islam itself is not a direct threat to the west but the fact that islam is ascendent at a time when all the western edifices of enlightenment are under attack from within will be an enabling factor to synergize an islamic expansion that previously would have had no where to expand into. Thank you for this post.

[Commander Tamson]

The cry from the UK mosques remains that Islam is a peace loving tolerant religion and that the fanatics and extremists are a very small minority. If that was true where are the likes of ISIS getting funded from and what are the 'true' Muslims doing about these fanatics in their midst who are apparently besmirching the name of the prophet. The truth is that the hate for the west is being taught in UK mosques by known clerics and, secretly maybe, the vast majority of Muslims would like to see the whole world as one vast Islamic State.

As another poster said - jihad by migration is already well advanced, not only in Britain but throughout the western (civilised) world.

[Commander Tamson]

Jesus!

What a minger! The IS are welcome to her.

You notice it's never the hot chicks that go and join the Jihad, just fuglies looking for a boyfriend.

Minger - classic!

[MJP]

The cry from the UK mosques remains that Islam is a peace loving tolerant religion and that the fanatics and extremists are a very small minority. If that was true where are the likes of ISIS getting funded from and what are the 'true' Muslims doing about these fanatics in their midst who are apparently besmirching the name of the prophet. The truth is that the hate for the west is being taught in UK mosques by known clerics and, secretly maybe, the vast majority of Muslims would like to see the whole world as one vast Islamic State.

As another poster said - jihad by migration is already well advanced, not only in Britain but throughout the western (civilised) world.

The irony is, the very people who defend Islam in the name of multiculturalism can't see that the biggest threat to a multicultural society is the very ideology they're defending!

I like multiculturalism. I like having people from all manner of countries living in the UK. It makes it an interesting place. We all have a laugh, get on well and there's no problems. From the Chinese girl down at the store, a very recent immigrant, to my Romanian and Bulgarian workmates, my Polish friends, Indian colleagues . . . it's all good.

I used to think the anti-Muslim chit chat was just a load of race hate nonsense spouted by BNP skinheads and I did sympathise with Muslims over the Iraq and Afghan conflicts and utterly loathed Bush/Bliar.

But now? No, in my opinion Islamic ideology is a serious problem and has no place in the civilised world. I see nothing good about it.

[Jingthing]

There is the irony for liberals.

[loogkreung]

Take the adjective of Islamic fundamentalism and you will see why the moderate Muslims don't speak out about the atrocities. Propagating Islam by the sword is fundamental to their beliefs. The OP asks a fatuous question, of course Britain has a Jihadist problem! This is a war on civilisation and, depressingly, is going to last a very long time.

[boomerangutang]

I foresee a backlash, within 5 years of moderate Muslims in UK against radicalized Muslims. Guess who will win.

The day that moderate Muslims stand against their brother Muslims or march against the bad ones in the UK is the day hell freezes over.

Although I wish otherwise I fear that you are correct.

I agree also. Moderate Muslims wouldn't last a half minute in a shouting match with extremists, particularly if the radicals went to waving guns or fists in the others' faces.

[hawker9000]

I foresee a backlash, within 5 years of moderate Muslims in UK against radicalized Muslims. Guess who will win.

The day that moderate Muslims stand against their brother Muslims or march against the bad ones in the UK is the day hell freezes over.

Although I wish otherwise I fear that you are correct.

I agree also. Moderate Muslims wouldn't last a half minute in a shouting match with extremists, particularly if the radicals went to waving guns or fists in the others' faces.

Is refusing to dig in one's heels and take a stand against tyranny and atrocity and "they're making us do it!" then a defense? Didn't mankind learn this lesson already during the dark 1930s & 40s?

[Scott]

Off-topic posts about religion in general have been deleted along with replies.

[Cambodger]

The latest rumours coming out of right wing groups (they've been saying it for months by the way) is that they're stockpiling weapons in the mosques and have been for some time, brought in on boats from Europe.

The police apparently have to, if they dare give 24 hours notice before entering mosques in the Uk.

Of course Its all just speculation but its not too hard to imagine Bombay style attacks in Uk cities, an awful lot of damage could easily be done with a few dozen assault rifles in the wrong hands.

[jacky54]

The latest rumours coming out of right wing groups (they've been saying it for months by the way) is that they're stockpiling weapons in the mosques and have been for some time, brought in on boats from Europe.

These right wing groups, so called, were some of the first to highlight the sexual abuse of children by Muslim gangs years ago. Unfortunately they were laughed at and accused of all the usual names. Perhaps they are right again about this and when you look at even the news on Aljazeera it would not be a surprise. Today it was murder by ISIS, Al Shabab, Boko harem, Al Quaeda and Muslims targeting kids in Southern Thailand. Aljazeera of course is very much pro Islam.

[MJP]

The latest rumours coming out of right wing groups (they've been saying it for months by the way) is that they're stockpiling weapons in the mosques and have been for some time, brought in on boats from Europe.

These right wing groups, so called, were some of the first to highlight the sexual abuse of children by Muslim gangs years ago. Unfortunately they were laughed at and accused of all the usual names. Perhaps they are right again about this and when you look at even the news on Aljazeera it would not be a surprise. Today it was murder by ISIS, Al Shabab, Boko harem, Al Quaeda and Muslims targeting kids in Southern Thailand. Aljazeera of course is very much pro Islam.

Media etc owe the English Defence League an apology too. I remember Tommy Robinson on Newsnight I think it was going on about this a couple of years back.

[7by7]

In November 2010, Emdadur Choudhury burned a Poppy during the 2mins silence. He was given a £50 fine and walked free from court. In October 2011 2 men were sentenced to 12 months in prison for spray painting a Poppy on a mosque.

The above is a great example of how far gone the British way of life is.

English law differentiates between a public order offence and vandalism to property; vandalism being more serious it attracts a higher sentence.

I am disgusted that anyone would burn a poppy; a symbol of the men who died or were crippled fighting for our freedom in both world wars and since; including several hundred thousand Muslims; all volunteers.

I am also disgusted by vandals; including those who painted a poppy on a mosque and those who painted Islamic extremeist slogans on a war memorial and those who paint their infantile 'tags' anywhere they feel like it.

BTW,

Steven James Vasey and Anthony Donald Smith, the two men sentenced to 12 months prison, did more than just spray poppies and political messages on the mosque. They also defaced a nearby store and guest house, both of which were owned by Asian businessmen. And an upstairs window on the store was smashed with a brick. Ironically, the store was reportedly selling Remembrance Day poppies at the time of the attack. Other evidence showed that the men had planned the attack beforehand.

Source

Another is a politician called Paul Weston was arrested for publicly quoting Winston Churchill's opinion of Islam. If that doesn't set alarm bells ringing nothing will.

The main reason for Weston's arrest was that he was making a speech on the steps of Winchester Guildhall without permission.

He was asked by police to move on, refused and was arrested.

He was detained after failing to comply with a request by police to move on under the powers of a dispersal order.

Source

Although he was then also arrested on suspicion of religious or racial harassment.

Weston, who left UKIP as they weren't right wing enough for him, is the founder of a far right, anti immigration party, Liberty GB. So good luck bringing your wife to the UK if his lot ever get into power!

Edited September 4, 2014 by 7by7

[jacky54]

Tommy seems like a reasonable sort

Edited September 4, 2014 by jacky54

[7by7]

How do ordinary British Muslims feel about British jihadists?

Well, here's the view of an effected family.

'You've betrayed us': Parents of private school jihadist in emotional appeal for her to stop inciting massacre and return home from Syria

Her parents, Muzaffar and Khalida, said they were horrified that their 'sweet, peaceful, intelligent' child had joined jihadists in Syria and had hoped she would become a doctor in Britain.

In a statement issued today, they said she had 'betrayed' the family but begged for her to return home.

They said: 'We still love you, Aqsa, but we now have to put your family, your brother and sisters first as you have betrayed us, our community and the people of Scotland when you took this step.

'You have torn the heart out of our family and changed our lives forever. Please come home.'

[MJP]

How do ordinary British Muslims feel about British jihadists?

Well, here's the view of an effected family.

'You've betrayed us': Parents of private school jihadist in emotional appeal for her to stop inciting massacre and return home from Syria

Her parents, Muzaffar and Khalida, said they were horrified that their 'sweet, peaceful, intelligent' child had joined jihadists in Syria and had hoped she would become a doctor in Britain.

In a statement issued today, they said she had 'betrayed' the family but begged for her to return home.

They said: 'We still love you, Aqsa, but we now have to put your family, your brother and sisters first as you have betrayed us, our community and the people of Scotland when you took this step.

'You have torn the heart out of our family and changed our lives forever. Please come home.'

It's a start. They need to get together and organise a proper movement against extremism. Big marches, campaigns, hell get everyone involved from all religions and political persuasions even the BNP. If everyone stands together in the face of extremism and the campaign is led by Muslims themselves, there's you community cohesion.

[transam]

How do ordinary British Muslims feel about British jihadists?

Well, here's the view of an effected family.

'You've betrayed us': Parents of private school jihadist in emotional appeal for her to stop inciting massacre and return home from Syria

Her parents, Muzaffar and Khalida, said they were horrified that their 'sweet, peaceful, intelligent' child had joined jihadists in Syria and had hoped she would become a doctor in Britain.

In a statement issued today, they said she had 'betrayed' the family but begged for her to return home.

They said: 'We still love you, Aqsa, but we now have to put your family, your brother and sisters first as you have betrayed us, our community and the people of Scotland when you took this step.

'You have torn the heart out of our family and changed our lives forever. Please come home.'

The problem is that some Muslim folk in the UK.......... ACTUALLY want to kill people, abroad they get away with it, in the UK they will get caught...

[jacky54]

I am disgusted that anyone would burn a poppy; a symbol of the men who died or were crippled fighting for our freedom in both world wars and since; including several hundred thousand Muslims; all volunteers.

I am also disgusted by vandals; including those who painted a poppy on a mosque and those who painted Islamic extremeist slogans on a war memorial and those who paint their infantile 'tags' anywhere they feel like it.

As we are getting into disgusted of Tunbridge Wells territory I am disgusted by Muslim patrols, sharia courts in the UK, child marriages, honor killings, hate preachers, segregation, public burka wearing, jihadists, and most of all paedophiles from a certain community.

Edited September 4, 2014 by jacky54