The Expat Divide...

[Just1Voice]

Thank you very much for this reply.

In regards to the OP, I have sometimes wondered where I "fit" in the expat community, and the only answer I can honestly come up with is: I don't fit. And, even more honestly, I don't want to fit. I'm open and friendly, known to actually start conversations at times with other foreigners I meet in restaurants and such, but bottom line is I like my privacy, and don't like anyone to intrude on it. I know half a dozen other expats, but only have interaction with one who has similar interests in bikes, but even that is limited. I'd rather be on a CBR, cruising mountain roads here in the north and north east, stopping at road side restaurants and shops, laughing and talking, or at least trying to talk, to the locals I meet, than a room full of farang and their wives, no matter how well intentioned they are.

I meet men here who are Vets, and who try to get me to join the VWF. Sorry, but that simply reminds me of the Springstein song "Glory Days", with a bunch of old men sitting around talking about how important they were, or their "war time experiences". I spent 18 of my 20 years in the Marines in Recon & Force Recon. End of story. When people find out, and start asking questions about what it was like, I change the subject. That was another life, a different "me", not forgotten, but not rehashed at every opportunity I get. I don't live there anymore.

Now my life is quiet, some would even say boring. I help my wife when I can with a new business she is starting, and I fight every day to get back the strength in my legs that I lost from a pinched sciatic nerve, followed by a stroke last October that temporarily took away my left arm and both legs. I've reached the point to where I'm looking to take a 3-5 days bike trip through the north/north east on a new Forza once rainy season is over. If that goes well, I'll start looking at the new 300cc CBR or Kawasaki for more fun.

We live in a small moo ban of 100 houses about 18k from Chiang Mai city, and that's fine with me.. Two other "farang" here. One is a German who thinks his $hit don't stink, and the other is a pot head American recluse. Both are on different soi from me so I don't have to deal with them. I love my Thai neighbors and get along well with them.

I don't drink, so the bar scene is out for me, as are other forms of "nightlife", other than dinner at a good restaurant from time to time with my wife. Some would say I'm a recluse. They're entitled, if that's what they think. It doesn't bother me. I know who I am, and what I am, as does my wife, and that's all that matters.

No problem.

[samuibeachcomber]

In regards to getting on with other expats,is n't it just the same back home.You gravitate towards people that you find empathy with and they become your friends.Sometimes you find yourself talking with people that you would n't normally associate with back home but you do so because we are all expats living in a foreign land but they do not necessarily become your friends.

The basis for a happy life here is to fit in,enjoy the different culture and accept it for what it is,dont try and change anything,go with the flow and accept the smiles as happy ones,even if they are not,and if you speak good thai and hear the locals slagging us off,dont get too offended,its their problem not yours.

[rayongchelsea]

It's a natural phenomena.

When only the young were here, age was irrelevant, origin was irrelevant ,financial status was irrelevant..everybody was here for basically the same reason to enjoy themselves, the novelty, the exotic- no divide.

Now disparate groups , different ages, different reasons etc..competition..a lot of baggage brought with them...

[1FinickyOne]

Not sure I really get the issue - some people are friendly, some are not, and all probably vary off their norm at time by direction of the wind or which side of the bed they woke on, or if they are in a hurry or not. I think it is the same in my home country and near everywhere else - this does not sound like a Thailand issue to me.

[IMA_FARANG]

There are three main reasons I tend to avoid the run of expats here in Bangkok.

1. Too many Brits who want to talk about the U.K. (I've been there but have no interest in U.K. politics, "football", or "how the bloody Asians" are taking away "their country".).
2. I 've been there before, and am not interested in the bar/bargirl/pub scene anymore. ( I am now rapidly approaching 68 years of age, and am not interested in having women half my age or less using the same old come on lines I first heard over 40 years ago when I was in my twenties)
3. And I dislike the implied racist attitude of many expats who seem to refer to all Thais as "them or they" and expats as "us or we".

I am an American by birth, I do no care about poofers in shorts kicking a volleyball around a football field,

And I am a individual, a me, not a member of a group, and I have my own opinions.

So if you as an expat can avoid talking about:

• Politics or "football" in the U.K.
• The bloody "Asians" and how they are ruining "old Blighty".
• Thai bargirls/hookers/ and your exploits with them.
• And you can't stop referring to Thais as "them" and "Farangs" as "us"

If you can do all that, then maybe we can talk about some topic we are both interested in.

Otherwise we have no common interests we can talk about.

I guess that is the "divide" you are talking about?

[TuskegeeBen]

[seancbk]

Fair question but I might counter with, why not? Just thought I would cast this upon the waters and see if I could get a conversation started. Thinking about going for a mt. bike ride but waiting for some clouds to pass so I have a few minutes to kill.

I was born an expat and have been one my entire life. In most places I've lived the expat community was all very similar in age, social class, financial level and education.

As a result the expat communities I lived amongst were very tight knit, as kids we all played with each other whilst our parents socialised.

Here in Thailand I don't really consider most farang as expats... some old bloke retiring from the UK is hardly what I'd call an expat.

But for arguments sake lets call all western foreigners here expats....

I've never mixed with people because they were expats, I mixed with them because they were my age group, they went to similar public school, their families were of a similar social and economic standing.....

I've no interest in socialising with people who don't fit into those categories.

[buhi]

Do you know me?

[cooked]

Maybe an accompanying question would be to ask why you use pretentious and convoluted language to ask such a simple question? Or is it just a way to show just what a superior bon vivant wordsmithing farang you really are?

GREAT putdown! Keep up the good work. You should have stopped reading if you has problims wiv British like wot we spoke at ome.

[PJcm]

I have a pet peeve about expats, those who have lived here for five years or more and speak a total of 100 words using poor grammar. These tend to be but not exclusively the same people who say; "they come here to my country and can't speak any English"

[buhi]

Do you know me?

Much is about personality.

I work with English speakers, but few , no none are friends in the close sense. My neighbours are , friends that is, but not close. My wife and children are extremely close, but I do not really know them or they me.

The existential problem and its paradox!

[Costas2008]

I avoid expats like the plague no matter where I am. I'm polite when with them, but still just avoid them. I don't go to England to see Greeks, or Thailand to see Mexicans.

If you go to England and you find any English, please, tell me also, I would be very interested to know.

OP, a very well written article, I've read half today and I hope to finish the rest tomorrow.

[JohnDodd]

post #60 says it all. What's a bon-vivant

[SOTIRIOS]

....oftentimes....seeing a friendly...........or more familiar face......

...reminds us of our hopeless predicament.....makes us realize what saps we have been.....how badly we have been duped..

..and that nobody....certainly not another westerner.........will be able to help get us out of this hell......

[Costas2008]

Fair question but I might counter with, why not? Just thought I would cast this upon the waters and see if I could get a conversation started. Thinking about going for a mt. bike ride but waiting for some clouds to pass so I have a few minutes to kill.

I was born an expat and have been one my entire life. In most places I've lived the expat community was all very similar in age, social class, financial level and education.

As a result the expat communities I lived amongst were very tight knit, as kids we all played with each other whilst our parents socialised.

Here in Thailand I don't really consider most farang as expats... some old bloke retiring from the UK is hardly what I'd call an expat.

But for arguments sake lets call all western foreigners here expats....

I've never mixed with people because they were expats, I mixed with them because they were my age group, they went to similar public school, their families were of a similar social and economic standing.....

I've no interest in socialising with people who don't fit into those categories.

And I was soooooo much looking forward to making your acquaintance.

Unfortunately, that can never happen now.

[buhi]

Yes indeed Costas, it is all Greek to me!

[TuskegeeBen]

There are three main reasons I tend to avoid the run of expats here in Bangkok.

1. Too many Brits who want to talk about the U.K. (I've been there but have no interest in U.K. politics, "football", or "how the bloody Asians" are taking away "their country".).
2. I 've been there before, and am not interested in the bar/bargirl/pub scene anymore. ( I am now rapidly approaching 68 years of age, and am not interested in having women half my age or less using the same old come on lines I first heard over 40 years ago when I was in my twenties)
3. And I dislike the implied racist attitude of many expats who seem to refer to all Thais as "them or they" and expats as "us or we".

I am an American by birth, I do no care about poofers in shorts kicking a volleyball around a football field,

And I am a individual, a me, not a member of a group, and I have my own opinions.

So if you as an expat can avoid talking about:

• Politics or "football" in the U.K.
• The bloody "Asians" and how they are ruining "old Blighty".
• Thai bargirls/hookers/ and your exploits with them.
• And you can't stop referring to Thais as "them" and "Farangs" as "us"

If you can do all that, then maybe we can talk about some topic we are both interested in.

Otherwise we have no common interests we can talk about.

I guess that is the "divide" you are talking about?

However, the time is coming (soon), when the Russian expat (solidarity & lifestyle) values, will become a paramount issue of achievement for all western expats, in SE Asia. Americans, in particular, coming from a 238 year-young, and fundamentally adolescent nation, have yet to learn about the power values of "off-shore" solidarity, regardless of our individual differences. The British expats, have their own inherent issues, for sure. However (again), the Brits (as do other expat nationality groups), absolutely will not "bad-mouth" another Brit, to a non-Brit expat, regardless. We Americans have a lot of "growing-up" to do, especially in that regard. That's the divide that "I" am talking about. Charity begins @ home

[buhi]

There are three main reasons I tend to avoid the run of expats here in Bangkok.

1. Too many Brits who want to talk about the U.K. (I've been there but have no interest in U.K. politics, "football", or "how the bloody Asians" are taking away "their country".).
2. I 've been there before, and am not interested in the bar/bargirl/pub scene anymore. ( I am now rapidly approaching 68 years of age, and am not interested in having women half my age or less using the same old come on lines I first heard over 40 years ago when I was in my twenties)
3. And I dislike the implied racist attitude of many expats who seem to refer to all Thais as "them or they" and expats as "us or we".

I am an American by birth, I do no care about poofers in shorts kicking a volleyball around a football field,

And I am a individual, a me, not a member of a group, and I have my own opinions.

So if you as an expat can avoid talking about:

• Politics or "football" in the U.K.
• The bloody "Asians" and how they are ruining "old Blighty".
• Thai bargirls/hookers/ and your exploits with them.
• And you can't stop referring to Thais as "them" and "Farangs" as "us"

If you can do all that, then maybe we can talk about some topic we are both interested in.

Otherwise we have no common interests we can talk about.

I guess that is the "divide" you are talking about?

However, the time is coming (soon), when the Russian expat (solidarity & lifestyle) values, will become a paramount issue of achievement for all western expats, in SE Asia. Americans, in particular, coming from a 238 year-young, and fundamentally adolescent nation, have yet to learn about the power values of "off-shore" solidarity, regardless of our individual differences. The British expats, have their own inherent issues, for sure. However (again), the Brits (as do other expat nationality groups), absolutely will not "bad-mouth" another Brit, to a non-Brit expat, regardless. We Americans have a lot of "growing-up" to do, especially in that regard. That's the divide that "I" am talking about. Charity begins @ home

Nail on the head. Cultural differences, not language. Even in the UK I am a southerner and as such found it very difficult, no useless, to try to integrate in other parts of the UK

[sletraveler]

Nice article. But then I'm a newbie farang wannabe. Thus the question: have you penned anything about mountain biking in Thailand. It's an interest of mine.

[zeichen]

Is this a treatise or just the beginning of a novel?

I got bored about 1/2 into the 3rd paragraph.

I don't quite get the divide perhaps you see it because you act like an ass to people. I meet lots of people here and they all seem to be nice to me. I don't read deep into things and just take things for face value. I also don't put a lot of value into what others do or think. I just live my life and when I can give to others.

[Crazy chef 1]

another wise advise given to me upon my arrival was: don't socialize with ppl who you wouldn't socialize in your home country.due of my work i am surrounded with many guests and i enjoy my time at home with my wife and the dogs- need nobody around me.

[villagefarang]

Nice article. But then I'm a newbie farang wannabe. Thus the question: have you penned anything about mountain biking in Thailand. It's an interest of mine.

Click on my profile and follow the link at the bottom of the page to my blog. I have written a few posts about mt. biking but mainly pictures and my joy of cross-country riding on the local farmer trails. If you want more send me a PM.

There is a cycling forum here on ThaiVisa as well.

[DoDoey]

Great! I'm so glad to hear there's an Expat community here in Thailand! I've been living here two months and I've yet to make eye contact with another farang. All of them see to find something interesting further down the road to which they fix their gaze upon as I walk by. This gaze, this fixation, do these farang always walk around like zombies ignoring the outside world, or is it only when their warning sensor goes off signaling a newbie approaching? "Avoid eye contact, that's it, keep going...almost there....Oh no, he's about to say hello! Emergency maneuver, speed up, look down, look mean. Great, you've done it again, you awesome son of a gun, you!"

[BlackJack]

I make my living off of the ex pat divide

besides I dont agree with what you say as it happens everywhere in every sphere of influence all over the World

its just age that makes you see things different

cognitive development and all that

half full half empty sort of

[JDGRUEN]

There are at least two sides - two ways to view expat interaction -- and one colors the other... That is face to face out in the community or interacting on line here at TVF... And IMO they are quite different... Being nearly totally anonymous on thaivisa.com - which most TVF members seem to prefer can bring forth the worst of personality traits... People will say things on TVF that they would not dare say face to face... So - we deal with alter-egos and who is really who?

The grumpiness and outright meanness that shows up on Thaivisa.com (as I have posted several times) is due to a biological effect - burnt out serotonin receptors from too much and far too consistant alcohol or illicit drug ingestion.. Irritability becomes a constant companion to those who imbibe too much... Then there are those who live in a fantasy land about their standing in life - being an Expat for some means pretending they are of a higher social status than they ever were back in - well I won't name that country - if you please.

Both of these aliments (again IMO) create an aloof or even outright anti-social personality - looking down on others who are mere serfs, less intelligent, underlings or worse...

Although I am an outgoing - extrovert (to use the American terms) I find that have few Expat friends here ... perhaps it will come at some point - but so far I find what they do with their time to be a bit boring ... my mind is agile and my imagination did not cease upon reaching age 60 and it is difficult to become comfortable with what they see as comfort.

By the way I am by far not a 'teetotaler' - I just happen to know ways to keep my brain young - elastic and alive.

[rijb]

As a newbie here I suspect what I am about to say may result in criticism being sent my way. That’s OK, I can take it, but I’ll say what I think anyway. No-one should consider that I am pointing a finger at them personally, I couldn’t do that even if I wanted to because I don’t know you.

I thought that the OP was a considered & well written post which deserves response with rather more thought than a number of folk have deigned to give it. During the short time I have been a member of this forum I have read many threads & there does seem to be a common pattern of ‘shots’ being taken. Whether these are generally from the same folk I don’t know, I am not yet familiar with members names. If there is forum history I am unaware of I don’t need to be told it, to do so would doubtless perpetuate the unhelpful.

My professional background has given me an interest not just in people, but in the interactions between people, hence my interest in the OP & the responses to it. Feel free to tell me if you think I’m wrong, but the responses I see are about discomfort, quickly morphing into distractive humour. Certainly there has been little discussion of the OP’s content, which were I Villagefarang, I think I might be feeling a little disappointed that the effort I had made were treated thus.

Although I am unable to pass meaningful comment on the OP’s content I would nevertheless like to encourage the sharing of such thought.

EDIT. Pleased to see some of the posts made whilst I was typing this

I think you'll find that interactions between people in the real world are more reliable than interactions between people in the virtual world.

In the real world, you're able to see what people do versus what they say.

In the virtual world, you only know what they say (write). You really don't know who or what they really are.

Smooth writing can be more deceiving than smooth talking.

I encourage you to be critical of anything you hear or read (including this post).

For me, the little hairs always stand up when a preacher goes on a membership drive.

[Suradit69]

Fair question but I might counter with, why not? Just thought I would cast this upon the waters and see if I could get a conversation started. Thinking about going for a mt. bike ride but waiting for some clouds to pass so have few minutes to kill.

well, to me I dont fret that other farangs think differently than me in thailand any more than in my home country. i dont try and broach the divide in the home country so why would that be different in thailand?

And why in particular should the divide between expats be of any significance as opposed to the similarities or differences between people generally ... the latter on vivid display here at TV on a daily basis?

When you say expats, does that include Cambodians, Filipinos, the Chinese, et al or do we assume from your essay that the only expats worth considering are the pale complexioned from Europe, North America and Australia?

I dare say the majority of people ensconce themselves in an enclave of like minded individuals who share their lifestyle, aspirations and background.

Shudder. Very lofty way of promoting xenophobia and keeping "others" at a distance. Colonial, isolationist, frightened and somewhat constipated attitude toward the opportunities of travel and living abroad. The last thing I would want to do is surround myself with clones of myself regardless of their fetching aspirations. From what I can see here, many expats limit their aspirations to getting intoxicated and getting themselves some paid companionship that was denied them back in farang utopia because of their backgrounds.

Seems this is all predicated on a ghetto mentality where the incarcerated imprison themselves behind barbed wire and tunnel vision.

[mikecat]

Nicel thoughtful and written post, thought about many of these things myself and you have virtually put my thoughts in print.

[rijb]

Nicel thoughtful and written post, thought about many of these things myself and you have virtually put my thoughts in print.

Thank you! But, what did you think of the Op?

[williet98248]

Been here eleven years from the USA. I consider myself as outgoing and a friendly person. But I don't have many friends. I put this down to my age (72) and having essentially quit drinking and whoring. These are boring pastimes to me after eleven years. Everyone I meet at least gets a nod if not a 'hello'. I will engage in conversation with just about anyone but don't find many conversations lead to a friendship. I have given up offering advice unless asked. Even then I know that most will not listen anyway. That bar they want to invest in will be a winner and the bar girl girlfriend is not like all the rest. OK, fine. Experience is the best teacher. I have plenty of experience! I am semi retired with a wonderful part time job to supplement my modest pension. My need for social interaction is largely met through my job and my lady friend. I get along great with my neighbors both Thai and expats. I have a lovely thai girlfriend who is closer to my age than not. 53. I feel the 'expat divide' as I usually have not the same interests as the people I meet. Sometimes it is the language barrier, the culture barrier or the age difference but mostly it is lack of similar interests. My only regret is not learning the Thai language better. I can get by but I consider it a failing. Otherwise I have never been happier than I am in Thailand even though I have few expat friends and don't necessarily want or need any.