Koh Tao murders: Night crime simulation at Sairee beach to look for clues

[a99az]

Running out of ideas, no.

Just running out of scape goats du to the number of migrant workers who have already gone back to there home countries.

[markwhite]

Ok, so I wasn’t going to sign up here as there is enough speculation as to what happened on that evening but I can’t help thinking that my information may help someone.

Have you given this information to the police?

I was going to edit that to say local police, but decided to leave it as it is. You possibly see my point.

[hobobo]

"and that you are unqualified to investigate a crime of this nature."

Why even bother, just blame the one that fits the "evidence"

[Runamile]

I hope I'm not being racist, but the more evidence we hear, the more this speaks "gang" to me, meaning Thai gang.

How many Thai gangs can there be on such a small island?

How many non-Thai gangs? Oh yeh, we can all guess that one, so ......

What is required is the willingness to believe this could be Thais, followed by a willingness not to be bribed, if it's proven or has been proven that these are members of one of the island's "Big" families. My guess is people are being sheltered. However, others, including other "Bigs" might become less than happy, willing to reveal, if it's felt that the island's tourism is finished. I'm not sure that's true, but it's certainly the message that should be put out. Totally finished, finished to the degree that will affect the "Bigs", as well as the "smalls". The only worry is that scapegoats will be found by either the Police or "Community", to clear the thing up. Truthfully, how cleared it will ever be in the terms that Thai tourism will be effected (which is all that Thailand really cares about) is a moot point. On overall tourism, there will probably be little effect. On "hedonistic" island tourism, there may be a little more. For Koh Tao, whilst, truthfully, it won't be finished, things won't be too good, at least for a time.

[louse1953]

I really wonder about the hoe and where it was placed after the crime. Of all the available options:

- leave it at the crime scene

- throw it into the ocean (not sure how the tides are there)

- wash off the blood and place it back where found

- carry it around for 30-something meters and place it very visibly against a fence, increasing the risk of being seen by a witness

the last one (what appears to have happened) seems to be to most risky and least rational. I feel there has to be some meaning to this.

Perhaps the police have already identified the owner or user of the hoe, and are finally smart enough not to pollute their investigation with their stream-of-consciousness press releases. At least there would be a vector from where the hoe was taken to the crime scene to the place where it was found.

If you are on yaba,i rekon the thought process would be scrambled

[billsmart]

Can't they tell from the DNA at least the race of the men depositing the semen? I know that can't narrow it down completely but I'm sure they could tell whether it came from an Asian or European. I don't know if they could distinguish between Thai and Myanmar...

No, it cannot.

Culicine, Perhaps then you should advise a correction in the many articles with erroneous information that are easily accessible on the internet, such as:

"Some genetic markers vary more than others, so fewer are required to find distinct clusters.^[7]Ancestry-informative markers exhibits substantially different frequencies between populations from different geographical regions. Using AIMs, scientists can determine a person's ancestral continent of origin based solely on their DNA. AIMs can also be used to determine someone's admixture proportions.^[8]" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

[greenchair]

The dna on the cigarettes is matched to the dna on the victims body.

Dingleberry.

[englishoak]

Likelihood now is its a Gang rather than tourists, either migrant or local or from another local island etc , maybe fishermen. If its mafia then its very unlikely if from outside KT they would be on island without the knowledge and or permission of the local mafia, its too small an island to not see whos arriving or leaving. IMO its multiple killers at least 2 maybe more, likely they will boast out of bravado or use it as a badge of fear.

Someone knows who did this, probably quite a few. Its the gangs they need to to be pulling in for further information at the very least.

[Beetlejuice]

Too many armchair detectives here making wild accusations and a confusion of theories.

I have read in the Western media reports that the police have stated they do have more evidence but are holding back details for the meantime as it may jeopardise the investigation.

I believe the police have their legit reasons and methods during this investigation and now all it requires is to have patience and see how their investigation unfolds.

I am confident that the monsters will be caught and sent straight to hells fire. Now it`s a case of when, not if. Just wait and see, I am right.

[randomusername]

Ok, so I wasn’t going to sign up here as there is enough speculation as to what happened on that evening but I can’t help thinking that my information may help someone.

Have you given this information to the police?

I was going to edit that to say local police, but decided to leave it as it is. You possibly see my point.

I haven't yet… do you think it would be a good idea to pass this information on? It was a couple of years back now, hence my hesitation.

[HeijoshinCool]

Surely they are taking DNA samples fom every male on the Island ? !!!

Unless they sent it out to other labs, that would take months to process.

[RoyLee]

We are now able to know the ancestry of a person from their DNA ie. their ethnicity and generally what part of their world their DNA originated from. Why are they not using this technology ?

[jacky54]

I believe the police have their legit reasons and methods during this investigation and now all it requires is to have patience and see how their investigation unfolds.

I am confident that the monsters will be caught and sent straight to hells fire. Now it`s a case of when, not if. Just wait and see, I am right.

Well your confidence in the Police is admirable and their methods, which included waiting several days to even start to search for a murder weapon, they are incompetent at best. Thanks goodness we have DNA testing or without doubt a Burmese would be in jail for the murder now.

[Krataiboy]

The more one reads of the way the forces of law and order in Thailand are conducting their enquiries into this appalling crime, the more it becomes obvious that they are out of their depth and floundering. The case is following the usual depressing pattern of the police jumping to premature conclusions and pointing the finger at suspects who turn out, after the most rudimentary examination, to be innocent of any involvement.

One can only feel for the parents of the victims and how their suffering is being compounded by the obvious ineptitude of the investigation team. Their only hope of getting justice, one suspects from previous investigations of this kind, would be to get Interpol and/or the UK police involved. Otherwise, this is going to be another of those hideous unsolved crimes for which Thailand is becoming - justifiably, I'm afraid - notorious.

[markwhite]

I haven't yet… do you think it would be a good idea to pass this information on? It was a couple of years back now, hence my hesitation.

You started out my stating that you hope your information helped someone. But it has to be your choice on what you do with this.

I have little idea what is happening in the UK on this, but hear that it's the headline or second item on the news. So the UK police must have people involved with the initial passing of information between the Thai authorities and the family, and possibly to continue the flow of information now. Though it could also be done through diplomatic channels, too. If the police are still involved, this seems as good a contact point as any, though you may not be from the UK in which case I don't know:

http://www.police.uk/contact/101/

There have been two people who have given similar accounts as you have about AC bar on TV already, but yours is possibly the most personal. And at least one other person has commented on the fact that the AC bar gets a bit dodgy after hours. If everyone who felt the same or had similar experiences made the information available to their local authorities, it might make a difference. There have been plenty of high-profile cases recently in the UK where unpleasant acts have gone on for many many years because people didn't come forward about things that happened in the past for a variety of reasons.

Alternatively, you could approach the media. The UK newspapers seem to be covering this in detail from what I see on the web, and there are online journalists who must be approachable.

The above is easily dismissed given who currently owns the investigation, and it may not make any difference at all if you do raise it. But it might.

[ClutchClark]

too much time has now passed , any potential evidence will have been contaminated or destroyed by now, this really has not shown the BiB at their best too much incompetence with the standard lazy attitude

Nonsense. A re-enactment can help to identify possible scenarios.

This can be a very useful practice to reconstruct the crime scene and is practiced by professional law enforcement agencies the world over.

A re-enactment involves an arrested person(s) showing what they did to clear up ambiguities in their statements.

Note - Arrested Person(s)

Its called crime scene reconstruction. It typically does not include having the assailant involved except in Thailand where the practice is common.

[ClutchClark]

I believe the police have their legit reasons and methods during this investigation and now all it requires is to have patience and see how their investigation unfolds.

I am confident that the monsters will be caught and sent straight to hells fire. Now it`s a case of when, not if. Just wait and see, I am right.

Well your confidence in the Police is admirable and their methods, which included waiting several days to even start to search for a murder weapon, they are incompetent at best. Thanks goodness we have DNA testing or without doubt a Burmese would be in jail for the murder now.

The murder weapon, a garden hoe, was discovered almost immediately so there goes your premise for incompetence.

[jacky54]

I believe the police have their legit reasons and methods during this investigation and now all it requires is to have patience and see how their investigation unfolds.

I am confident that the monsters will be caught and sent straight to hells fire. Now it`s a case of when, not if. Just wait and see, I am right.

Well your confidence in the Police is admirable and their methods, which included waiting several days to even start to search for a murder weapon, they are incompetent at best. Thanks goodness we have DNA testing or without doubt a Burmese would be in jail for the murder now.

The murder weapon, a garden hoe, was discovered almost immediately so there goes your premise for incompetence.

If you read the news you would have known they started looking in the sea today for the 'other' weapon

[robsamui]

Stepping back and looking at the whole business, I can't help feeling just a bit sorry for the Thai nation. For the last 200 years they have seen their isolation from the rest of the world as something valuable and desirable. And at the same time have continued to condition their working population to utterly believe that Thailand is the best nation in the world, has the best morals and ethics and science and technology etc etc etc. Although, be that as it may,Thai graduates genuinely believe they are educated and knowledgeable, yet they'll put Band Aid on their face when they have toothache and think that 'fresh' juice means that the can was opened today.

And due to the astonishing levels of general public ignorance, many Thai people perceive the police as doing a good job, particularly when it comes to the magical science side of things with fingerprinting and DNA-matching and other such technological wonders.

Up until the last decade, the under trained and woefully incompetent (by First World standards) police force could get away with acting confident, issuing blase statements, blustering through investigations, detaining and accusing underprivileged scapegoats and even stating that obvious murders were suicides. It's not only the police force - many levels of administration have been able to work in similar ways.

Tragically for this unsuspecting nation, those very same foreigners of whom they have such a low opinion, have sneakily introduced superior technology via cell phones, the internet and social media networking (which the local people have seized upon with joy) but which unfortunately now are exposing the blundering incompetency and lack of knowledge, skill, and awareness of senior officials - in this case the police force. And the sudden realisation that their model nation, the 'best in the world', is now being shown up internationally for what it is, must be devastating to senior officials here.

Everything about this investigation appears to have been a classical comedy of errors, right from the first discovery of the unfortunate victims, the lack of organised response which allowed at the first ferry at 6:00 am to leave unhindered, plus the assumption that anyone leaving would go by ferry and thus ignoring all the private boats - to the trampled and destroyed crime scene with the subsequent rash of bloody photos appearing on Thai Facebook pages, and the long period of time between the death and the autopsies (so much so that the coroner could't even determine the time of death).

To this we have to add the lunatic statements issued publicly by police spokesmen ( such as "no Thai person could possibly have done something like this" and so on).leading to completely ignoring potential Thai nationals as potential suspects and concentrating only on non-native suspects - for no reason at all. These statements were made with the same kind of awareness of a school teacher with only his class to hear him - in this case the dozen or so people directly in front of the spokesman at the time. Each and every time another statement is made, the officials still seem to have no awareness at all that their audience is actually tens of millions of people across the world (as in the basic Thai thinking that if you can't see it it isn't there), all these millions listening avidly to the contradictions and illogical reasoning and shuddering at the over-confident public posturing. And then, finally, now the grabbing at straws dressed up as 'new evidence' (unspecified).

And then to cap it all, as the climax of the show, one of the Nation's figureheads allowing himself to broadcast the thought that only ugly women can safely flaunt themselves in bikinis, the pretty ones (by implication) are asking for trouble - later apology not withstanding.

Each year, more and more, the Thai nation is being dragged flapping and posturing, trying not to lose face, into that very world outside that it has so long tried to keep at a distance. They won't let foreigners own land or property. They won't let foreigners stay unprovisionally in the country. (And only a few years ago one National newspaper and its followers had an active campaign to white-out every signpost indicating where the immigration offices were.) But whether they like it, or want it, or not, things aren't like they used to be. Thailand simply can't keep flapping its arms, closing its eyes and believing it can fly - and more to the point, telling all its people they can fly, too.

Because, today, 10 million of those dreadful, untrustworthy foreigners are watching everything it does. And we are not impressed at all.

And may the bereft families of the two really unfortunate and undeserving victims take some small solace that they have that same 10 million people thinking about them with the utmost sympathy.

R

[LanceGringo]

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The police also were sceptical about the blood stained hoe used in battering the two tourists to death.

A police officer said normally a criminal would throw away any weapon used in the murder to destroy evidence. But in this case, they were astonished when the hoe was not thrown away, just lied near the log and covered with a sack.

The murderer struck the victims with the hoe and then put it back to hide at the place, which was very unusual, an officer said.

This indicated that the murderer was a cold blooded person, he said.

Keep making public statements like this guys. It just shows your total lack of experience, and that you are unqualified to investigate a crime of this nature.

I don't see how putting the hoe back where they found it, instead of throwing it away, proves they are cold blooded killers, although I don't doubt they are. Putting the hoe back may have been done to throw the police off into thinking that the person who owns this hoe, like the guy who cleans the beach, is the prime suspect. Like he needed it the next day to so his work so he put it back.

As I said all along I wouldn't count Christopher Ware totally out of the picture right yet. If you are reading this Chris then I am sorry but having bloody clothes in your bag, and leaving in a hurray looks very suspicious. Even if the blood is yours. Especially when Miller had bruised fists and the blood could be from a nose bleed he cause you during the fight. Hope you have a solid alibi.

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I am not sure I would walk my very attractive girlfriend down an isolated beach, after drinking, at two in the morning, and past 3 strangers. I for sure know she would not want me to. But then if I knew at least one person, as in Miller knowing Ware, and he was my roommate, then I don't think it would bother me then. Maybe even give me more of a comfort feeling.

Hum???

Who said or where does it say that the victims walked past three strangers?

[Toscano]

I hate to say it but a friend told me of a sight showing photos of the victims. In my mind the hoe was certainly the murder weapon , are they not already

doing DNA tests on the bloodied handle and blade ? What police are investigating , local or experts from Bangkok , if Thailand has such a thing ?

[fish fingers]

haven't been following this for a few days. What do we know so far?

Do we know if the couple were having sex and then attacked? That cd explain the girls injuries and the way she was found - or were they both attacked and then she was raped? which could point to the same injuries etc

[LanceGringo]

I hate to say it but a friend told me of a sight showing photos of the victims. In my mind the hoe was certainly the murder weapon , are they not already

doing DNA tests on the bloodied handle and blade ? What police are investigating , local or experts from Bangkok , if Thailand has such a thing ?

The hoe was the murder weapon eh? - well, thanks for clearing that up for us Mr Stating-The-Obvious

Anymore insightful comments?

[fish fingers]

The english guy who was detained trying to leave - he had bloody clothes, a big scar/scratch on has arm near his hand .. but it wasn't him, right?

[Lukecan]

Some girl was murdered in 2006, 2nd or 3rd day they determined the race of the killer from DNA. And yet people are still debating if the killer is western or asian, don't tell me technology 8 years ago was more advanced than todays one.

[ClutchClark]

I'm tired. Do I remember in another thread that the cigarette had lipstick on it?

Does the DNA on the cigarette match the semen? Doesn't it say so?

Ladyboy?

I am a bit surprised so much can be made from a cigarette found "30-50 meters" from the bodies.

Especially when it has been stated that the two victims were at a large social gathering earlier that same night in the same proximity.

What an amazing coincidence to find & test that particular cigarette and get a positive match.

I am surprised if they couldn't pull partial fingerprints from it.

I really wish people would stop making comments on an island they have never been to - the kids were at AC bar which is a good walk from the Ocean View apartments they are staying in and involves a walk down a long and very dark road

I visited the island last November. I spend about 3 months a year on Samui. I couldn't tell you much anything about the seedy bar scene of either island though so I will accept your expertise on the matter.

It was reported there was a large beach party near to where the victims were found. It was reported the victims had attended this social gathering as well; however, the point being made was a cigarette found 30-50 meters away from the bodies was collected as evidence and apparently had matching DNA.

It is surprising with the amount of fags on the beach and the amount of discarded bottles in a 50-meter search radius that they found that cigarette.

Its quite interesting how everyone here on TV slams the police for incompetence yet has complete faith in the police crime lab that is testing for DNA.

[cup-O-coffee]

A conspiracy theory post has been removed.

Do you mean an article quoting something that the police said about their ongoing investigation?

[ClutchClark]

One wonders with respect that any professional approach from a crime scene that now has been tainted , any evidence or the likelihood of evidence destroyed by every man and his dog, all has but disappeared , but here's just a suggestion, how about a DNA on all employees and guests at that resort and if any guest have left , you have all their immigration info go find them, a simple saliva swab will suffice, if nothing else you have eliminated that lot.

I wouldn't give them my DNA.

But then privacy rights are pretty important to us Americans.

apparently much more important than solving brutal murders.

As a matter of fact...yes.

[IAMSOBAD]

I have an idea.

Test the DNA of all local police and connect the dots.

[LanceGringo]

I'm tired. Do I remember in another thread that the cigarette had lipstick on it?

Does the DNA on the cigarette match the semen? Doesn't it say so?

Ladyboy?

I am a bit surprised so much can be made from a cigarette found "30-50 meters" from the bodies.

Especially when it has been stated that the two victims were at a large social gathering earlier that same night in the same proximity.

What an amazing coincidence to find & test that particular cigarette and get a positive match.

I am surprised if they couldn't pull partial fingerprints from it.

I really wish people would stop making comments on an island they have never been to - the kids were at AC bar which is a good walk from the Ocean View apartments they are staying in and involves a walk down a long and very dark road

I visited the island last November. I spend about 3 months a year on Samui. I couldn't tell you much anything about the seedy bar scene of either island though so I will accept your expertise on the matter.

It was reported there was a large beach party near to where the victims were found. It was reported the victims had attended this social gathering as well; however, the point being made was a cigarette found 30-50 meters away from the bodies was collected as evidence and apparently had matching DNA.

It is surprising with the amount of fags on the beach and the amount of discarded bottles in a 50-meter search radius that they found that cigarette.

Its quite interesting how everyone here on TV slams the police for incompetence yet has complete faith in the police crime lab that is testing for DNA.

How many cigarette butts would you expect to be on the beach of a small island then, in your estimation? hundreds? thousands? millions?

My opinion of the cigarette butt findings is this; the killers were allegedly waiting for the victims before they left the bar and made there way back to the beach, in this time, it would not seem unusual if the killers whilst waiting, had a cigarette, sharing it etc.

I would have not thought that there would be 'numerous' cigarette butts in this location, if they had been hiding out before moving nearer to where the attack took place.