Universal doubts cloud 'perfect' Koh Tao murder investigation

[thailandchilli]

Now in the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/world/asia/thailand-tactics-of-police-questioned-in-investigation-of-tourists-murders.html

Associated Press (AP) syndicated copy. Thomas Fuller is the Bangkok Bureau Chief for The New York Times.

Thanks for stating the obvious, regardless of that the point I made was that the NYT have decided to cover it, regardless of where they got the story from....................

[JLCrab]

Now in the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/world/asia/thailand-tactics-of-police-questioned-in-investigation-of-tourists-murders.html

Associated Press (AP) syndicated copy. Thomas Fuller is the Bangkok Bureau Chief for The New York Times.

Thanks for stating the obvious, regardless of that the point I made was that the NYT have decided to cover it, regardless of where they got the story from....................

Well it is in fact a big difference whether the NYTimes posts syndicated copy or originates its own story from its full-time Bangkok Bureau.

[Johnsen]

The heat on this kid Mon Sot is really starting to fire up. His last admission of guilt will be leaving the country just like the red bull kid did. Run Mon Sot Run. Prove to the world you are as guilty as sin by your own actions... Just don't run to a wrong corner of the world where somebody wants to take out their own version of rough justice. Anybody wanting make some good coin should grab a camera and stake out the international airport. That's where he will be seen next. That photo will b priceless. If I knew him I'd be on a stale out watching his every move.

[balo]

the fact still remains , their DNA matched what was found on the victims.

Correction: That is not a fact at all, the RTP, a UN deemed organised criminal gang notorious for lying, murdering, thieving, raping, bashing, torturing, drug dealing, assassinating, and many more crimes; oh and let's not forget framing innocent people have stated that the arrested suspects' DNA matched. No independent analysis has been effected.

To believe otherwise shows a very low IQ quotient.

Balo really can't see the wood from the trees due to over tinting of his saffron lenses. I guess he hopes he'll get BIB brownie points for his staunch defence of their practices.

Let me get back to you when or if someone else from outside RTP repeat the DNA tests , then you can judge me , too early for that mate. In the mean time go ahead with your thai bashing.

[geraldbradford]

Let me get back to you when or if someone else from outside RTP repeat the DNA tests , then you can judge me , too early for that mate. In the mean time go ahead with your thai bashing.

You lose the debate when you make silly allegations; criticism of a UN deemed criminal organisation, the RTP, is not Thai bashing. In fact you will find a good many posters here are married to Thais and their spouses agree with the deserved criticism.

I think you are connected in some way to the RTP as no foreigner has any logical reason defending the Thai Police dept.

[spidermike007]

CSI LA reckons the real suspect and the Scottish guy regularly worked as a team to drug and gang rape Western girls but in this case David got in the way:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=768931639834163&set=p.768931639834163&type=1

Another report stated McAnna simply introduced (mainly blonde) female tourists wanting drugs to the 'candy man'. Both reports are only hearsay at best.

A sad situation, adventurous young people looking for a good time.

How does it work. "Go to Ko Tao you can get anything you want, nobody ever gets in any trouble"

Time for the adventurous to find a new place to let their hair down.

Apparently, Sean McAnna, as is rumored on facebook,

was a frequent date rape drug rapist along with some of his friends,

I am too old to know this type of activity, but apparently, it is more frequent and unreported than I ever imagined

it seems that David, may have objected and paid with his life

Yes, it does appear that David was just trying to be helpful, and was doing the right thing. Only, he did not realize he was confronting a homicidal maniac, man child, from a stupid rich family, without any morals, ethics, nor a decent bone in any family members body. He was so far out of his element, and obviously knew little about the ways of this distant planet called Thailand.

Best thing we can all do is what I have done. Impose a lifetime boycott on that sorry, pathetic, crime and drug infested island of Tao. Deny those roach families the cash needed to maintain their fiefdom. Pigs like that should not be supported on any level. Keep up spreading the word. Do not give up. Do it for David and Hannah. Soil the name of Tao forever!

[geraldbradford]

...Best thing we can all do is what I have done. Impose a lifetime boycott on that sorry, pathetic, crime and drug infested island of Tao.....

Extend the boycott to all of Thailand as the Bkk elites are part of this cover up.

My family has for quite some time boycotted Thai goods due to their abuses of workers (as Andy Hall has documented) and other issues. My wife is a Thai citizen and fully supports this. Short term pain may lead to long term gain.

Cheers.

[SteveFong]

look, you can rant all you want about boycotting Tao, and Thailand, but you ain't stoppin no one

the karma of that place, will do it in,

I am not there, but, it can't be business as usual,

there is a lot of people, worried about being next, because when these two kids are released, the killers, rapists and accomplices

are all gonna get antsy,

and someone

is gonna make a mistake

[boomerangutang]

Perhaps the UK Government should just do their own analysis on any samples recovered and fully publish them online for future verification by anyone who cares to do so.

For example the parents / siblings of the accused will show familial matches with the evidence assuming they are guilty.

This won't go away, proof of innocence would be just as damning as proof of guilt.

I suspect the Burmese and British governments will be setting this up right now if they care at all about this case.

There's nothing the Thai's could do to prevent this or meddle with it in any way.

I'd like to agree with your post, but for the last sentence, I can't. Thai officialdom is preventing and will continue to prevent Burmese and British personnel from digging deeper. The stakes are rising hourly, so Thai officials are left with scant choice but to lock arms and continue to refuse independent DNA testing. Imagine the loss of face if the DNA was shown to not be those two lightweight Burmese guys. It would go all the way to the top of the heap - to the self-appointed PM who has been cheerleading the investigation at every juncture. He's even awarded promotions and commendations to top brass investigators.

[Oziex1]

look, you can rant all you want about boycotting Tao, and Thailand, but you ain't stoppin no one

the karma of that place, will do it in,

I am not there, but, it can't be business as usual,

there is a lot of people, worried about being next, because when these two kids are released, the killers, rapists and accomplices

are all gonna get antsy,

and someone

is gonna make a mistake

Should the income of the bigwigs become diminished, infighting and the blame game may start the rot from the inside. I predict all sorts of nonsensical moves as in the ridiculous idea of paying protection money.

Not to forget the claim of near capacity filling of the islands accommodation.

Thailand will always be a tourist destination but what will the real figures be this high season?

I mentioned infighting above, TV posters are indulging in a little too much of this also. Calm down and group hug please, united we stand.

[SteveFong]

The place is probably full,

sans a few rapists

[mrtoad]

Let me get back to you when or if someone else from outside RTP repeat the DNA tests , then you can judge me , too early for that mate. In the mean time go ahead with your thai bashing.

.

Balo, this is not a Thai bash; this is about corrupt practices of The BIB, if you can not differentiate that, you're even more dumb than I thought you were.

[spidermike007]

...Best thing we can all do is what I have done. Impose a lifetime boycott on that sorry, pathetic, crime and drug infested island of Tao.....

Extend the boycott to all of Thailand as the Bkk elites are part of this cover up.

My family has for quite some time boycotted Thai goods due to their abuses of workers (as Andy Hall has documented) and other issues. My wife is a Thai citizen and fully supports this. Short term pain may lead to long term gain.

Cheers.

I am not sure you can refer to the headman, and his son as Thai elites. It would be a bit like calling a Manchester street thug a duke, or nobleman. Or a Compton crip gang member an Earl. No, they are just a super lucky, super rich group of immoral thugs, who were in the right place, at the right time, and are without an ethical bone in their bodies. They do as they wish, since they know they are untouchable, and above the law. They know not even the Army or the generals have the guts to bring them down, as that would constitute rocking the boat, upsetting the apple cart, or denying the status quo, which they have been avoiding since they were infants. So, not sure how they can be referred to as elite. The only thing that is elite about these Tao families is that amount of cash they have. Many of the elite in Bangkok at least have class, sophistication, a good education, have traveled overseas, and know something about the world. These insects? What do they know of the world? What do they know of anything except what cash buys? Did the headman send his son to an overseas school, to try to instill a sense of the world in this creep? Did he send him to a military academy to try to instill some discipline in him? Did he do anything to get this freak under control? The resounding answer is NO. They are only familiar with their own hives. And they know in their Tao hives, they are the alpha males. David, of course did not realize this.

[boomerangutang]

I don't believe in calls for boycotting Ko Tao. The islanders there who try to make a living, shouldn't be punished. If there are baddies, it's likely it's some men associated with AC bar and its owner. On CSI LA there's banter about date-rape drugs which mention Sean's and the headman's son's names. It could be just a lot of hot air, but cops continue to blank out any disclosure re; the scenario at the bar that night. It's just one of the many things that cops appear to be derelict about, either because they're inept or they're hiding evidence which doesn't sinc with their frame-up of the Burmese guys.

[DennisF]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

[ScotBkk]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

Link pls

[deecee10]

they're trying to tell everyone that these two Myanmar Midgets first overpowered a young, apparently fit European twice their size, killed him, then raped the girl and killed her, oh, after sharing a condom? Plus, they say they used the handle of the hoe on David, but the pictures of David clearly show that a KNIFE, or some type of SHARP BLADED weapon, was used by his attackers. They can not read, write or speak Thai, but they "confessed" to police after an "intensive interrogation" at a supposed "safe house". And by the video of their "reenactment" of the crime, they had to be "directed" by the Thai police as to what they did.

sorry, way too many "inconsistencies" for me.

The only things that are not inconsistent are the inconsistencies. The whole episode has been consistently shambolic.

[KhunKiao]

here's the petition link in english (theres a button at the right side at the very bottom of the page, where the languagen can be changed, but easy to miss as it shows only the selected languange, so it is in thai script)

http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller?lang=en-GB

[DennisF]

I don't believe in calls for boycotting Ko Tao. The islanders there who try to make a living, shouldn't be punished. If there are baddies, it's likely it's some men associated with AC bar and its owner. On CSI LA there's banter about date-rape drugs which mention Sean's and the headman's son's names. It could be just a lot of hot air, but cops continue to blank out any disclosure re; the scenario at the bar that night. It's just one of the many things that cops appear to be derelict about, either because they're inept or they're hiding evidence which doesn't sinc with their frame-up of the Burmese guys.

In a usual situation I would tend to agree with you but, this is somewhat unusual.

Small island with just a few apparent mafia style thugs running it ( according to TV posters) and everyone else scared to breathe without fear of retribution.

Many people on that island probably have valuable information they are keeping to themselves out of fear or self interest, or both.

We reap what we sow and whilst any call for a boycott of the island would fail it is my hope that the residents are hit so hard financially

that it overcomes their fear and they start to open up.

[Greg Nixon]

I wrote to the police chief Stating if in fact these are the killers then an outside independent DNA test would shut up every one. Even went as far as to suggest have the FBI send the samples to there lab in Arlington VA. to test. The US isn't no way connected to case. So no one could say there results were tainted or slanted towards BIB tests. which I guess were sent to Singapore. Bangkok or Chang Mai. Most likely it was 7-11. Now fact The video I reviewed several times Noticed that neither of the suspects appear to be even looking like one in video. Then I suggested they check cell records simple thing to do because person of interest was on cell phone as he walked by camera. Was that even mentioned by the police? "NO" IMO that is the biggest frame up ever done. In the end It will be the citizens in Thailand who earn there living off tourists who will suffer While some Liars and murders go free. If you cover up this crime you are just as guilty as those who committed it and should be given same sentence. That would send a message to those who might try this in the future.

Now that the police have the accused behind bars what is stopping them from sending two samples of their DNA for comparison ? When i was threatened and assaulted at my garden gate I was still found guilty of fighting even though there were no independent witnesses. If it were not for my neighbour who was a lawyer I would have been thrown in jail and deported because the PIMP who accused me paid the Thai police 50,000 THB as a bribe. Do you think that the police will consider your letter for 1 minute, if what you say is true ?

The police tried every trick to get me to give conflicting evidence. When I asked them if someone came up to them on the street and threatened them and then assaulted them, what would they do, they laughed in my face. As a matter of fact the police resorted to threatening me.

[DennisF]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

Link pls

http://news.sanook.com/1679985/

Lifted from CSI LA page

[SteveFong]

...Best thing we can all do is what I have done. Impose a lifetime boycott on that sorry, pathetic, crime and drug infested island of Tao.....

Extend the boycott to all of Thailand as the Bkk elites are part of this cover up.

My family has for quite some time boycotted Thai goods due to their abuses of workers (as Andy Hall has documented) and other issues. My wife is a Thai citizen and fully supports this. Short term pain may lead to long term gain.

Cheers.

I am not sure you can refer to the headman, and his son as Thai elites. It would be a bit like calling a Manchester street thug a duke, or nobleman. Or a Compton crip gang member an Earl. No, they are just a super lucky, super rich group of immoral thugs, who were in the right place, at the right time, and are without an ethical bone in their bodies. They do as they wish, since they know they are untouchable, and above the law. They know not even the Army or the generals have the guts to bring them down, as that would constitute rocking the boat, upsetting the apple cart, or denying the status quo, which they have been avoiding since they were infants. So, not sure how they can be referred to as elite. The only thing that is elite about these Tao families is that amount of cash they have. Many of the elite in Bangkok at least have class, sophistication, a good education, have traveled overseas, and know something about the world. These insects? What do they know of the world? What do they know of anything except what cash buys? Did the headman send his son to an overseas school, to try to instill a sense of the world in this creep? Did he send him to a military academy to try to instill some discipline in him? Did he do anything to get this freak under control? The resounding answer is NO. They are only familiar with their own hives. And they know in their Tao hives, they are the alpha males. David, of course did not realize this.

The army can easily put this to rest,

arrest the headman, arrest his family, and test them,

and if they fail,

hang them, take their money, and install one of their own

that is what I would expect

[Greg Nixon]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

From my limited experience there is no prosecuting lawyers and the police are the effective prosecutors because of it. You are thinking in western terms where the police are objective arresting agents and the evidence is turned over to a prosecuting lawyer who decides whether or not to prosecute. Even though there were 6 accused in the court I attended, I saw no prosecuting lawyer only police. I was the only one who had a defence lawyer.

This is Thailand and they have their own system here.

[Greg Nixon]

Why do you think the people both fear and dislike the police ?

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

From my limited experience there is no prosecuting lawyers and the police are the effective prosecutors because of it. You are thinking in western terms where the police are objective arresting agents and the evidence is turned over to a prosecuting lawyer who decides whether or not to prosecute. Even though there were 6 accused in the court I attended, I saw no prosecuting lawyer only police. I was the only one who had a defence lawyer.

This is Thailand and they have their own system here.

[spidermike007]

...Best thing we can all do is what I have done. Impose a lifetime boycott on that sorry, pathetic, crime and drug infested island of Tao.....

Extend the boycott to all of Thailand as the Bkk elites are part of this cover up.

My family has for quite some time boycotted Thai goods due to their abuses of workers (as Andy Hall has documented) and other issues. My wife is a Thai citizen and fully supports this. Short term pain may lead to long term gain.

Cheers.

I am not sure you can refer to the headman, and his son as Thai elites. It would be a bit like calling a Manchester street thug a duke, or nobleman. Or a Compton crip gang member an Earl. No, they are just a super lucky, super rich group of immoral thugs, who were in the right place, at the right time, and are without an ethical bone in their bodies. They do as they wish, since they know they are untouchable, and above the law. They know not even the Army or the generals have the guts to bring them down, as that would constitute rocking the boat, upsetting the apple cart, or denying the status quo, which they have been avoiding since they were infants. So, not sure how they can be referred to as elite. The only thing that is elite about these Tao families is that amount of cash they have. Many of the elite in Bangkok at least have class, sophistication, a good education, have traveled overseas, and know something about the world. These insects? What do they know of the world? What do they know of anything except what cash buys? Did the headman send his son to an overseas school, to try to instill a sense of the world in this creep? Did he send him to a military academy to try to instill some discipline in him? Did he do anything to get this freak under control? The resounding answer is NO. They are only familiar with their own hives. And they know in their Tao hives, they are the alpha males. David, of course did not realize this.

The army can easily put this to rest,

arrest the headman, arrest his family, and test them,

and if they fail,

hang them, take their money, and install one of their own

that is what I would expect

You can expect it all you want. But, it is not happening. Yes, they have the power. But, Will they apply it to the rich and powerful? So far, not.

[DennisF]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

From my limited experience there is no prosecuting lawyers and the police are the effective prosecutors because of it. You are thinking in western terms where the police are objective arresting agents and the evidence is turned over to a prosecuting lawyer who decides whether or not to prosecute. Even though there were 6 accused in the court I attended, I saw no prosecuting lawyer only police. I was the only one who had a defence lawyer.

This is Thailand and they have their own system here.

You are correct, I had my western blinkers on, thought I'd been here long enough to lose them!

Just shows you how we assume things.

I will think much deeper next time.

[Oziex1]

Now the burmese have their lawyers perhaps we could start a fund to match the $1 million baht that the head man said he would pay if anyone could prove anyone from his family was involved....

Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family if they give DNA samples to the UK authorities..All the sons and cousins...not put the samples in a taxi fto Singapore and end up in bkk...Let the uk compare them with the samples they have

If they have nothing to hide they'd jump at it and all this inuendo would vanish...

Then their sweet little Island can return to business as normal, even regain their already lost face and income,

What's worse for a Thai, loss of face or money? Well you have all of the above now..

Would be the perfect call for his disgusting offer of a million to prove his family did it...

The familes DNA holds the key..

When will you be starting your project, with full details of how much to raise, how you expect to raise it and lay out exactly how you are going to present it to the head mans family?

How much are you offering? we will open a bank account in Thailand or England, with a guarantee of a refund if default,

I will raise 1 million baht to say the Family is guilty, as opposed to the 1 million the family offered to say nobody could prove them guilty......figure it out...will the Family raise their offer to 10 million that nobody will find them guilty, if so they win, Koh Tao loses face nd money......how much money would you put on the table to see this family clear their name, not just we've got a million that says you will never find us guilty...Shame on you, shame on all wearing the evil blood of this horrible crime......sick dogs..

I'm not naive and yes money is power, the Ko Tao knobs know this to.

Lets allow people power to prevail here, Mark Kent and Andy Hall are onto it as are several NGO's from around the globe. Myanmar has legal representatives involved and a whole on line world are discussing this. Lets show these thugs that money does not rule all the time.

Will they be able to comprehend the quest for justice for the Myanma 2 through people power.

[ScotBkk]

I just read the Pornthip evaluation of the FDA evidence collection.

She has totally rubbished the procedures that were adopted, not too diplomatically either.

So that raises questions over the accuracy of the results from a very well respected ME, not that many on here didn't have a few anyway!

So any DNA evidence would be thrown out in an objective court of law, probably.

Whats left of this case against the 2 Burmese then?

Link pls

http://news.sanook.com/1679985/

Lifted from CSI LA page

Thanks Dennis,

I don’t want to sound like a broken record. Nonetheless, just goes to prove what the majority of tv members including myself (and you) have said all along – A f%%*in stitch-up of the highest magnitude and degree. I think we’ve all gave it our best shot now and time these guys where set free to leave Thailand. Then peacefully allowed to go back to their own country after being compensated for this disgusting outrageous ploy to intern them in a Thai Prison hell-hole for the rest of their

lives.

God have mercy on their souls

[ScotBkk]

Regarding, the JTJ Group of misfits a few words if you please.

Socially incorrect in behavior, standing on guard in their usual virtual TV pedestal, entering the arena masquerading as some strong force you should ‘not reckon’ with, both guns blazing full of furor, with exaggerated zeal embroiled by discontent, thus pouring scorn on others for their personal vendetta against anyone/everyone for not having the much adored and respected place entry within the – Thai Apologist club. They’ve currently shown no understanding or concern for the horrendous murders of Hannah & David nor shown one shred of compassion for the 2 young Burmese scapegoats currently interred - in some shit-hole Thai Prison.

Thus, regardless of others being too illiterate (according to them) to become part of this vicious circle cannot take onboard’ other people have much more money and common sense, nevertheless should be thrown out the country for committing such a monstrosity against their newly found self-appointed Thaihood Faith. That, as far as they’re concerned’ is an effrontery and should not be adequate to allow anyone to stay in Thailand unless willing to become a grumpy cynical Bastard like themselves.

Time all this longstanding garbage was cleared and thrown out. Out with the OLD and in with the NEW….

I’ve become accustomed to their constant verbal abuse and no longer take it to heart. Particularly, whether I’m ridiculed with their constant vile verbosity posted as some disdainful reply or subjugated at every given moment for daring to offend these contemptuous perverse parasites. However, one should remember. If it was not for their obnoxious input, TV would not be what it is in the forum stakes since, these sullen cranky creeps keep the topics alive and kicking. Although, unfortunately, can’t say the same for their limited time here on earth.

I suppose they don’t have much else to do after moaning at their wives all day or after kicking the dog up the**ehole then getting prepared to join their sewer rat pack for the current day’s events. Thus, to see who they can patronize, including beating them to pulp with help from the other cronies with the usual line of unadulterated abuse. It’s incredible, they are so damn hostile and never ever relent.

Just an observation ……

[Fred Flinstone]

Regarding, the JTJ Group of misfits a few words if you please.

Socially incorrect in behavior, standing on guard in their usual virtual TV pedestal, entering the arena masquerading as some strong force you should ‘not reckon’ with, both guns blazing full of furor, with exaggerated zeal embroiled by discontent, thus pouring scorn on others for their personal vendetta against anyone/everyone for not having the much adored and respected place entry within the – Thai Apologist club. They’ve currently shown no understanding or concern for the horrendous murders of Hannah & David nor shown one shred of compassion for the 2 young Burmese scapegoats currently interred - in some shit-hole Thai Prison.

Thus, regardless of others being too illiterate (according to them) to become part of this vicious circle cannot take onboard’ other people have much more money and common sense, nevertheless should be thrown out the country for committing such a monstrosity against their newly found self-appointed Thaihood Faith. That, as far as they’re concerned’ is an effrontery and should not be adequate to allow anyone to stay in Thailand unless willing to become a grumpy cynical Bastard like themselves.

Time all this longstanding garbage was cleared and thrown out. Out with the OLD and in with the NEW….

I’ve become accustomed to their constant verbal abuse and no longer take it to heart. Particularly, whether I’m ridiculed with their constant vile verbosity posted as some disdainful reply or subjugated at every given moment for daring to offend these contemptuous perverse parasites. However, one should remember. If it was not for their obnoxious input, TV would not be what it is in the forum stakes since, these sullen cranky creeps keep the topics alive and kicking. Although, unfortunately, can’t say the same for their limited time here on earth.

. Thus, to see who they can patronize, including beating them to pulp with help from the other cronies with the usual line of unadulterated abuse. It’s incredible, they are so damn hostile and never ever relent.

Just an observation ……

Well said

Quote

""

I suppose they don’t have much else to do after moaning at their wives all day or after kicking the dog up the**ehole then getting prepared to join their sewer rat pack for the current day’s events""

UNQUOTE\