Universal doubts cloud 'perfect' Koh Tao murder investigation

[ScotBkk]

= BiB

That's you in their little black book!

Yes, JTJ and his special covert agents ... To ssers.inc

[Mosha]

1412770579056.jpg

That will put our Ambassador on the spot. After all the BIB are to be congratulated. 555

[lausie]

I wasn't aware that the papers that you mention have printed that the boys have recanted their confessions-yes, those papers have more clout.

There is a lot of press coverage now:-

The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11145536/Thai-police-deny-cover-up-of-Britons-murders.html & http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11147921/Amnesty-urges-investigation-into-torture-of-Thai-island-murder-suspects.html

The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/suspects-britons-murder-thailand-police-brutality

ITV News: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-10-07/burmese-murder-suspects-in-british-tourist-killings-say-they-were-beaten/

Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2784707/Burmese-migrants-RECANT-murder-confession-British-tourists-Human-rights-groups-urge-Thailand-investigate-claims-duo-tortured.html

The Mirror: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-burmese-suspect-4398149

New York Daily News: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/thai-police-deny-suspects-confessed-beach-murders-torture-article-1.1966290

Khaosod English: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412595379

Sydney Morning Herald: http://www.smh.com.au/national/myanmar-man-charged-in-murder-of-british-tourists-says-he-was-tortured-by-police-20141008-10rrxa.html

The Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/murder-suspects-allege-thai-police-brutality-1.1955225

News.com.au: http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/thailand-beach-murders-burmese-suspect-claims-he-was-beaten-tortured-by-police/story-fnizu68q-1227083365604

New Zealand Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11339226

Good work sir, thank you for the links..keep the pressure on. I think there is a petition going around too. Can you provide that link as well?

Link to the petition: http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller?recruiter=51139167&utm_campaign=twitter_link_action_box&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=share_petition

[Wilsonandson]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

The UK government needs to be pressured into independently investigating two of its citizens' murders and the obvious injustice and cover up by the Thai officials. International pressure, particularly from the UK, is the only chance of the truth ever coming to light and the responsible parties being held accountable. It seems as though the UK isn't interested in dong so for fear of diplomatic repercussions, so maybe if enough of their citizens demand that they do then they'll have no choice. If they don't then they're as guilty as the corrupt Thai government and police officials as far as I'm concerned.

I just signed the petition. Not sure what good it'll do, but it didn't hurt to sign it.

It was at 45,891 when I just looked at it.

How do you sign it?

[Artisi]

216 posts and it is noticeable that a number of extremely active members seem to be absent, wonder why?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Artisi

[spidermike007]

1412770579056.jpg

That will put our Ambassador on the spot. After all the BIB are to be congratulated. 555

Is it the ambassadors responsibility to protect the status quo? Is he employed by the Thai govt? Why such timidity? Why such unwillingness to question these clowns?

[KamalaRider]

they're trying to tell everyone that these two Myanmar Midgets first overpowered a young, apparently fit European twice their size, killed him, then raped the girl and killed her, oh, after sharing a condom? Plus, they say they used the handle of the hoe on David, but the pictures of David clearly show that a KNIFE, or some type of SHARP BLADED weapon, was used by his attackers. They can not read, write or speak Thai, but they "confessed" to police after an "intensive interrogation" at a supposed "safe house". And by the video of their "reenactment" of the crime, they had to be "directed" by the Thai police as to what they did.

sorry, way too many "inconsistencies" for me.

I think you've got a few of the "facts" wrong,

Mr. Miller was supposedly having sex with Mr.Witheridge and had his back exposed to the assailant(s).

AND they didn't share a condom, apparently it was Mr.Millers or someone elses.

The cuts are VERY consistent to the damage a hoe would create, NOT A KNIFE, Knives are only 2-3 mm thick, unlike your head and the cuts extends not sideways..

The rest I don't have any opinion about and I'm just as sceptical about the whole lot as anyone else, but please, if you want to become a regular Sherlock, investigate and analyze the facts before you make a KTP move.

Edited October 8, 2014 by KamalaRider

[jaywalker]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

Would love to, but what goes where? it is all in Thai. i tried and filled in what I thought was correct, but it was rejected.

I just looked at it & the top portion was in English, the bottom half is in Thai. It's pretty simple. Just fill in the form on the right & click the big honking "Submit Button" below it.

32 people have signed it in the last 10 minutes or so. Here's is what the Petition says:

"To:

The Government of the United Kingdom, UK Ambassador to Thailand Mark Kent

Independently investigate the horrific murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller.

On September 15th, 2 innocent British citizens - David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23 were found raped and murdered in the most horrific manner possible whilst on holiday in Thailand on the island of Koh Tao. The Thai police’s flawed handling of this crime has been a grave cause of concern from both the local and international community from the very start of the investigation. The Thai authorities insensitive obsession with tourist figures and the police’s notoriously corrupt reputation around the world, has been in the forefront of these concerns.

From a completely destroyed crime scene, racial slurs and finger pointing against foreigners, victim blaming from the General turned Prime Minister, police posting pictures of the dead victims bodies on their FB accounts (with no regard for the victims friends and families), countless releases of unnecessary and highly conflicting pieces of information/evidence to the media, reports of investigators beating and offering bribes to false witnesses (and then still being allowed to work on the case), reports of torturing of suspects, suspicious and insensitive re-enactments of the crime, and the well known fact that citizens of Myanmar are the usual choice of scapegoats in Thailand.

The International and local community are now not able to trust that the two Myanmar nationals, Win and Saw,(surnames not yet revealed) have not had their confessions forced out of them or that evidence against them has not been tampered with. As such we cannot also trust that they are responsible. This being said, we demand a full independent investigation to be conducted by the government of the United Kingdom into these deaths. This is in the hope that the families of these victims may know justice has been served, and that the deaths of two more possible innocents might be avoided.

Sincerely,

[Your name]

Edited October 8, 2014 by jaywalker

[Wilsonandson]

216 posts and it is noticeable that a number of extremely active members seem to be absent, wonder why?

Because they have a life.

[stephen terry]

they're trying to tell everyone that these two Myanmar Midgets first overpowered a young, apparently fit European twice their size, killed him, then raped the girl and killed her, oh, after sharing a condom? Plus, they say they used the handle of the hoe on David, but the pictures of David clearly show that a KNIFE, or some type of SHARP BLADED weapon, was used by his attackers. They can not read, write or speak Thai, but they "confessed" to police after an "intensive interrogation" at a supposed "safe house". And by the video of their "reenactment" of the crime, they had to be "directed" by the Thai police as to what they did.

sorry, way too many "inconsistencies" for me.

I think you've got a few of the "facts" wrong,

Mr. Miller was supposedly having sex with Mr.Witheridge and had his back exposed to the assailant(s).

AND they didn't share a condom, apparently it was Mr.Millers or someone elses.

The cuts are VERY consistent to the damage a hoe would create, NOT A KNIFE, Knives are only 2-3 mm thick, unlike your head and the cuts extends not sideways..

The rest I don't have any opinion about and I'm just as sceptical about the whole lot as anyone else, but please, if you want to become a regular Sherlock, investigate and analyze the facts before you make a KTP move.

And if you troll through the posts, you'll find the answers - so please don't jump to any conclusions until you've read the facts.

[Mosha]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

The UK government needs to be pressured into independently investigating two of its citizens' murders and the obvious injustice and cover up by the Thai officials. International pressure, particularly from the UK, is the only chance of the truth ever coming to light and the responsible parties being held accountable. It seems as though the UK isn't interested in dong so for fear of diplomatic repercussions, so maybe if enough of their citizens demand that they do then they'll have no choice. If they don't then they're as guilty as the corrupt Thai government and police officials as far as I'm concerned.

I just signed the petition. Not sure what good it'll do, but it didn't hurt to sign it.

It was at 45,891 when I just looked at it.

How do you sign it?

Click on the link fill in the details and click on sign

[Carrerakiss]

How come we only get articles like this from 'Coconuts BKK'--surely, if the Burmese have recanted their confessions then major news syndicates would be running the story?

And this one today--where are the big Media players?

They are running the story. Telegraph, Mirror, Independent, New York Daily News, Mail, Guardian etc etc etc.

Not sure what your point is- that the Coconuts Bkk article is inaccurate? Or that you'd rather read an article on it from a different source..?

I wasn't aware that the papers that you mention have printed that the boys have recanted their confessions-yes, those papers have more clout.

There is a lot of press coverage now:-

The Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11145536/Thai-police-deny-cover-up-of-Britons-murders.html & http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11147921/Amnesty-urges-investigation-into-torture-of-Thai-island-murder-suspects.html

The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/suspects-britons-murder-thailand-police-brutality

ITV News: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-10-07/burmese-murder-suspects-in-british-tourist-killings-say-they-were-beaten/

Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2784707/Burmese-migrants-RECANT-murder-confession-British-tourists-Human-rights-groups-urge-Thailand-investigate-claims-duo-tortured.html

The Mirror: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-burmese-suspect-4398149

New York Daily News: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/thai-police-deny-suspects-confessed-beach-murders-torture-article-1.1966290

Khaosod English: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412595379

Sydney Morning Herald: http://www.smh.com.au/national/myanmar-man-charged-in-murder-of-british-tourists-says-he-was-tortured-by-police-20141008-10rrxa.html

The Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/murder-suspects-allege-thai-police-brutality-1.1955225

News.com.au: http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/thailand-beach-murders-burmese-suspect-claims-he-was-beaten-tortured-by-police/story-fnizu68q-1227083365604

New Zealand Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11339226

To the poster who indicated Cocnuts was hardly universal, this seems pretty universal now.

[Wilsonandson]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

Would love to, but what goes where? it is all in Thai. i tried and filled in what I thought was correct, but it was rejected.

I just looked at it & the top portion was in English, the bottom half is in Thai. It's pretty simple. Just fill in the form on the right & click the big honking "Submit Button" below it.

32 people have signed it in the last 10 minutes or so.

I just went on the site again and the box in red you fill in is all in Thai. Why have this box in Thai or is that who you are targeting to sign?

[stephen terry]

216 posts and it is noticeable that a number of extremely active members seem to be absent, wonder why?

Because they have a life.

From the last few days, it was anything but that. It's about time that whatever opinion you might hold, the world's spotlight is demanding transparency.

[Carrerakiss]

Interesting development; according to Sanook news the public prosecutor on Samui has doubts about (at least part of) the story and evidence provided by the RTP, as he wont accept what's in the current 800-page report and just sent the entire case back to the police. So it's far from a shut case at this point.

This could be the start of an interesting dynamic. Is it possible that the police have been allowed to do whatever they want with the investigation, while quietly some words have been spoken to the prosecutor to go over the police submission with a fine tooth comb? So in effect, the police have been given enough rope to hang themselves. Figuratively speaking of course.

I just wonder whether this might end up in the revamp of the BIB at the top, that many people seem to believe is necessary.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Carrerakiss

[ScotBkk]

Now the burmese have their lawyers perhaps we could start a fund to match the $1 million baht that the head man said he would pay if anyone could prove anyone from his family was involved....

Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family if they give DNA samples to the UK authorities..All the sons and cousins...not put the samples in a taxi fto Singapore and end up in bkk...Let the uk compare them with the samples they have

If they have nothing to hide they'd jump at it and all this inuendo would vanish...

Then their sweet little Island can return to business as normal, even regain their already lost face and income,

What's worse for a Thai, loss of face or money? Well you have all of the above now..

Would be the perfect call for his disgusting offer of a million to prove his family did it...

The familes DNA holds the key..

So of this one million baht, how much are you pledging? I missed that bit in your post.

Why are you crucifying people who try to help a just cause ... You impoverished/destitute or financially embarrassed or something and the thought doesn't work to kindly with your funding ??

Give the guy a break mate .. u ain't funny !!!!

[Carrerakiss]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

Would love to, but what goes where? it is all in Thai. i tried and filled in what I thought was correct, but it was rejected.

I just looked at it & the top portion was in English, the bottom half is in Thai. It's pretty simple. Just fill in the form on the right & click the big honking "Submit Button" below it.

32 people have signed it in the last 10 minutes or so.

I just went on the site again and the box in red you fill in is all in Thai. Why have this box in Thai or is that who you are targeting to sign?

I think there is a drop down menu you get by clicking in the bottom right corner. No idea why it's in Thai, but maybe lots of Thais are signing up

[lausie]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

Would love to, but what goes where? it is all in Thai. i tried and filled in what I thought was correct, but it was rejected.

I just looked at it & the top portion was in English, the bottom half is in Thai. It's pretty simple. Just fill in the form on the right & click the big honking "Submit Button" below it.

32 people have signed it in the last 10 minutes or so.

I just went on the site again and the box in red you fill in is all in Thai. Why have this box in Thai or is that who you are targeting to sign?

You should find a drop down menu at the bottom right of the page where you can select the language. It defaults depending on your location.

[jaywalker]

This just came to mind, about the BIB.

[toonsai]

I cannot believe the UK stays inactive. I am sure plenty of discussions have been taking place behind closed doors. The UK government will not go public unless no tangible progress can be made by the Thai authorities. Of course the UK authorities are not blind, probably fully aware and concerned by the total fiasco around this investigation. But condemning publicly the RTP would be the ultimate decision. A lot can happen in between, directly or indirectly.

[peecee]

Now the burmese have their lawyers perhaps we could start a fund to match the $1 million baht that the head man said he would pay if anyone could prove anyone from his family was involved....

Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family if they give DNA samples to the UK authorities..All the sons and cousins...not put the samples in a taxi fto Singapore and end up in bkk...Let the uk compare them with the samples they have

If they have nothing to hide they'd jump at it and all this inuendo would vanish...

Then their sweet little Island can return to business as normal, even regain their already lost face and income,

What's worse for a Thai, loss of face or money? Well you have all of the above now..

Would be the perfect call for his disgusting offer of a million to prove his family did it...

The familes DNA holds the key..

What's this bullshit about giving DNA to the Pommies,,,If one wants a independent investigation I would say the only ones that could maybe help the Thai investigators is a combined effort from the UN and the Thai Police,,,Not UK!

I think because they were British citizens it should if possible be investigated by the UK. The problem will be how much evidence remains on the deceased after the Thai post mortem, important DNA could have been washed away after the Thai pathologists had taken their samples and as a lot of people mistrust the Thai police, only separate independent sample analysis would placate the (me amongst) sceptics.

[stephen terry]

The Samui prosecutor is a star. Take your report back and provide me with the truth. And BTW, arrest the real culprits. It's getting to a stage now when, despite my rational posts, I could become incensed with the alleged RTP conspiracy. Not that I'll state that is my opinion on a public forum, it was a misunderstanding.

[ScotBkk]

First good news in weeks - looks like some heads will roll over this and we might even see justice served and HiSo Brat and Rambo doing the reenactment. For the ones who are new here, I would like to say the following: If any author would write a crime novel with the official RTP story being his story line while making the mistake of leaving all those other question marks open (push knife stab wounds on David AND Sean, fistfight David before drowning, Sean left to run, the bloody guitar, the people who hunted Sean, no eye or ear witnesses, the staged reenactment, the torture, the phones, not interrogating all friends and everyone around Hannah and David that night and more), he would not sell one single book and critics would rip the author apart in mid air - he sure would never sell a book in his life and would be a subject to endless ridicule amongst the worldwide community of book authors and publishers. Think about it!

Same thing happens to tv posters ..... just to digress on more comical role ..

[Dogmatix]

As the plaudits over for 'perfect job' done by police investigators as described by Prayuth and the police's exemplary professionalism in solving the case, as praised by British ambassador, Mark Kent keep rolling in, let's sum up where we are in the case.

Pol Gen Somyos said that the arrest of the two suspects namely Win and So Lin, both 21, was attributable to five reasons:

1) an eyewitness, a Myanmar migrant worker who implicated them;

2) their DNA samples match with the DNA found in the body of one of the tourists;

3) video footage showing the two suspects;

4) a smartphone of one of the victims found in the possession of the suspects;

5) and the confession of the suspects in the presence of their lawyers.

No. 1 seems to have just gone as the eyewitness, Maung Maung, who claims to have been beaten by police into testifying against his friends, has now says he didn't witness anything and doesn't believe his friends did it as they woke up the next day completely unmarked as if nothing had happened. That leaves 4 reasons.

No 3 the video looks quite inconclusive. Even if the man in the clips is one of the suspects, it is only circumstantial evidence and doesn't preclude the possibility that other killers could have gone to and from the crime scene without passing the security camera.

No 4, the smart phone. Police have offered conflicting information about this. First David's iphone was found intact and listed as part of the deceased personal, as shown in TV. Then the police chief said that Hannah's iphone was found smashed up near the Burmese hut but news vids showed it in the police station. Finally David's iphone was said to have been given by one of the supects to an unnamed friend, who smashed it up and left in a plastic bag near his friends' hut. This piece of evidence seems shaky and may be demolished soon.

No 5 the confession of the suspects in the presence of their lawyers. It seems that what he meant was the subsequent reiteration of their confession verbally in front of a Burmese and a Thai lawyer and Burmese embassy officials in the Samui court building. There has been no suggestion that any lawyers were present during the interrogation and confessions on Koh Tao or indeed that the suspects had appointed lawyers prior to giving power of attorney to the lawyers that the Burmese embassy brought to see them in Samui. If there is reasonable doubt that their confessions were extracted were extracted under torture, they would inadmissible in a Western court but are probably still OK in Thailand, if not retracted by the suspects. Given all the above the suspects lawyers must surely urge them strongly to retract the confessions.

That will leave reason no. 2 DNA. So far the DNA testing looks to have been rather patchy. The two suspect's DNA was tested earlier without a match. No DNA has been taken from inside the condom that had Hannah's DNA on the outside and a police spokesman said it might have been 'cleaned out'. The suspects DNA has been found on cigarette butts found where they were drinking and playing guitar but not on cigarettes found at the scene. David's DNA was not found on the hoe which was alleged to have been the murder weapon used on him in the confessions, not to mention the fact that his wounds looked inconsistent with the use of the hoe. No DNA samples have been taken from a Thai man who witnesses said was seen to leave the island on a speed boat shortly after the killings for fear of impinging on his human rights, despite the hundreds of Burmese forced to line up for involuntary testing. Would the DNA evidence stand up to verification from an overseas government authority?

Then there were none.

[toonsai]

Interesting development; according to Sanook news the public prosecutor on Samui has doubts about (at least part of) the story and evidence provided by the RTP, as he wont accept what's in the current 800-page report and just sent the entire case back to the police. So it's far from a shut case at this point.

This could be the start of an interesting dynamic. Is it possible that the police have been allowed to do whatever they want with the investigation, while quietly some words have been spoken to the prosecutor to go over the police submission with a fine tooth comb? So in effect, the police have been given enough rope to hang themselves. Figuratively speaking of course.

I just wonder whether this might end up in the revamp of the BIB at the top, that many people seem to believe is necessary.

Revamp the BIB from the top will not change anything. The beloved General PM already changed the top shortly after he took the power. The system is so deeply rotten that BIB would need to be cleaned from the bottom in every single branch, village all around the country. It would probably be a bloodbath...

[Carrerakiss]

1412770579056.jpg

That will put our Ambassador on the spot. After all the BIB are to be congratulated. 555

I did wonder how Mr Kent is feeling, assuming that he said even half what the BIB said, he said. But did he say any of it?

I suspect he probably made some kind of congratulatory remark as that would, diplomatically, be expected. But does anyone seriously think he actually said the effuse congratulatory drivel that was reported?

If anything, it's another example of the BIB shooting themselves in the foot. They went waaaay over the top in exaggerating what he probably said, to the extent that it looked unbelievable.

[Rykbanlor]

I don't think Sean will want to talk - I think he's involved a little more than he made out during his little window of media scrutiny

Very interesting, please let us know what you are baseing your opinion on ? Some links please or do you personally know the guy ?

Sorry to mislead you - it is just my opinion and nothing more. He was there on the island fo almost week after the murders before he came out with his piece. He has wounds on his body similar to David's. He's been on Koh Tao for a good length of time/multiple times and he knows or seems to know well these mafia guys. And the police were very happy to let him walk. I only suspect that he was there with the guys when it happened but maybe didnt know how far it would all go then maybe tried half-assedly to stop it. He might not want to speak out much more for fear of revealing his own role but if he does speak out he will implicate Mon and Nomsod (he already tried to implicate Mon).

I apologise for posting my unfounded suspicions, could be way off and I don't want to clog the thread up with nonsense. Please disregard this as such, just wanted to answer you, Axact.

Regards

[sweatalot]

.....At the same time, reports filtered out from Burmese media that an embassy lawyer had in fact described it as a set up after the two men, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, revealed bruises they said came from torture and recanted their confessions........

...how can this be ignored.....???

Easy TIT.

The military successfully told 20,000,000 Thais that they were wrong electing Yingluck and pulled off a seamless coup d'etat. They can do what they want. They got guns, tanks, helicopters and shit

Cannot aobstain from bringing in politics? Btw the military was right. Now they should go against the police.

[emilymat]

Now the burmese have their lawyers perhaps we could start a fund to match the $1 million baht that the head man said he would pay if anyone could prove anyone from his family was involved....

Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family if they give DNA samples to the UK authorities..All the sons and cousins...not put the samples in a taxi fto Singapore and end up in bkk...Let the uk compare them with the samples they have

If they have nothing to hide they'd jump at it and all this inuendo would vanish...

Then their sweet little Island can return to business as normal, even regain their already lost face and income,

What's worse for a Thai, loss of face or money? Well you have all of the above now..

Would be the perfect call for his disgusting offer of a million to prove his family did it...

The familes DNA holds the key..

What's this bullshit about giving DNA to the Pommies,,,If one wants a independent investigation I would say the only ones that could maybe help the Thai investigators is a combined effort from the UN and the Thai Police,,,Not UK!

Errr.....Only one is a UK citizen, the other is from the Channel Islands - not part of the UK. Check your geography before you post.

[jaywalker]

I suspect the higher up it goes, its not so much about direct connections, as much as keeping face or admitting the extent to which this country is crippled by the patronage system. Prayuth won't be keen to recant his praise

On the subject of "Saving Face" in Asia... I saw an episode of that Locked Up Abroad show, where Indonesian police had mixed up a guy's fingerprints on some heroin containers.

He got a lawyer to re-check the fingerprints. Lo & behold, they did not belong to the accused, but the police wouldn't admit it, as it would make them "Lose Face".

Poor guy did 15 years because the cops didn't want to "Lose Face" ie: admit they are bungling idiots.