Thai Wife UK to EU via ferry without Schengen Visa

[teatree]

Is it possible for a UK national to take their non-EU spouse to the EU via ferry without a visa under the freedom of movement regulations as set out under EU law?

I know it is technically a right but how easy is it in practice?

Could I just turn up at Dover with my wife, prove that we are married, then sail to France?

Anyone tried this?

[7by7]

The French embassy say that unless her UK residence permit states she is the family member of an EEA national then she will need a visa; but that is not strictly correct.

From Travel documents for non-EU family members

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

French passport control takes place at Dover, prior to checking in with the ferry, so if you have satisfied them then the ferry company will board you.

I suspect that they will have seen this many times and be familiar with the rules, so your marriage certificate, with a certified translation if you married in Thailand, plus the fact that you are travelling together should be sufficient.

However, if you did marry in Thailand, the French usually want the translation of the marriage certificate to be certified by the Thai MFA, either in Bangkok or via the Thai embassy. Unlike the UK when a certificate by the translator is sufficient.

So, if you haven't had this done, or if you want to be absolutely 100% sure, then you should obtain a Schengen visa from the French embassy.

As you are an EEA national, she is your wife and she is travelling with you then most of the requirements wont apply to her. So it should be quick and easy to obtain and be free.

Edited October 16, 2014 by 7by7

[teatree]

Is a Schengen visa easy to obtain and free? I know it should be but...

[7by7]

As you say; it should be!

See How and where to apply for a visa?

Note that you should only apply to France if France is your main destination or you are touring and entering the Schengen area via France.

If another Schengen state is your main destination and you are just passing through France to get there, then you should apply to country which is your main destination.

[Richard W]

As you say; it should be!

See How and where to apply for a visa?

Note that you should only apply to France if France is your main destination or you are touring and entering the Schengen area via France.

Note the illegal demand for an itinerary! I can't find a statement of how far a Thai marriage certificate falls short of being adequate evidence of being a family member for France.

[Donutz]

Indeed asking for an initiary is a violation of the direcitve, as is the demand that the passport is valid for X months. I reported various embassies to the EU Commission (Home Affairs). Got a reply back with thanked me for and listed the demands that those familiar with the directive already know (prove of marriage, traveling/joining EU spouse and IDs). Only by complaining and informing various authorities may things change in the future. Few embassies or countries seem to get it right. Though an embassy of an EU nation located overseas in country A may get it right while those in B do not.

If the embassy puts up a fight and you run out o f time then yes turning up at Dover-Calais should work. Just as I won't bother to get a UK visa for my wife. Too much hassle. If I culd go to the UK embassy here in The Hague I'd go there. THis is no longer possible so then it is much easier to go to Calais to save us all the crap from the UK authorities (online applicaiton, outsourcing blablablabla).

[teatree]

I know the UK plays by the rules. I have friend who is an EU citizen who took his Thai wife to the UK and she got a free UK visa.

Anyone had any luck getting a visa from the continent?

[Donutz]

I know the UK plays by the rules. I have friend who is an EU citizen who took his Thai wife to the UK and she got a free UK visa.

Anyone had any luck getting a visa from the continent?

At Dover-Calais the UK does play by the rules (except for granting visa free access to those non EU family members who have a "family member of an EU/EEA national" ressidence card, which the UK does not acknowledge accept for German and Estonian RC's). But at the airports this isn't always the case, plenty of stories to be found online of EU nationals with non EU (Thai, ...) spouse who wished to travel from an airport on the mainland to the UK and who were denied boarding after UK Border staff confirmed "they had to get a (free) visa in advance". So I wouldn't take my chanches on attempting to go from Amsterdam or Berlin to the UK...

At the UK border though you should be alright, though some border guards are a bit grumphy and instructing people to get a visa in advance next time.

[Jay Sata]

UK airlines and ferries are free to deny boarding to any passenger they choose.

[7by7]

Indeed they are; subject to their terms and conditions of carriage.

But, as already said, you pass through French immigration at Dover before you check in with your ferry company.

So why would they deny boarding to someone without a Schengen visa if French immigration has already allowed them through?

France to UK; at Calais your pass through UK immigration before checking in with your ferry company.

It's the same for Eurostar; French immigration at St. Pancras, UK at the Gare Du Nord; both before checking in and boarding.

I've never used the Eurotunnel shuttle and it's been many years since I used a channel port other than Dover or Calais, so can't say what happens there; but can see no reason why it is not the same.

Edited October 20, 2014 by 7by7

[liddelljohn]

When i apply for schengen visa for my thai wife to travel with me and our children from Dover to france in our UK car when she is staying in UK ,, she has a 10 year UK multi entry visa ,our kids have UK and thai passports so no problem , she is always refused application at VFS in bangkok as they only allow AIR travel to france and so far 4 applications are NEVER allowed to process .

when we apply in london the Visa is refused as we are told she must apply in Thailand ,,,catch 22 !!!!????,,,,

i would think that they are breaking EU rules on free travel of spouse of UK EEA national ...

[Donutz]

Indeed, just read the sticky on Schengen.

- Don't go to VFS, they are optional for everyone and not always the most competent...

- Who told you that one can only enter by plane?! You could enter France by any means including such things as submarines, a raft, a balloon, walking etc.

- Thai resising in the UK can apply from the UK. You can apply from any country where you have long term residency. Even if you don't they should consider it to see if it's unreaaonable to tell you to apply from a country where you have long term residency.

- As spouse of an EU citizen you can apply at any embassy in the world, or at the border. The visa should be free, via an accelerated procedure nbd minimum hassle. Basically you need to show that you are related (by marriage) and that you will enter France.

- You got screwed over by VFS and posibly the French more then once. Complain to the embassy, French MFA and EU Commission.

Edit: so the French should have told tou that you had the option of directly dealing with them or if you would prefer, deal with their external service provider. They should have let you apply from the UK and TH, and the process should have been a free, fast and smooth one. Failing all that you should have been able to get a visa at Dover (to Calais).

Edited November 9, 2014 by Donutz

[Richard W]

- Thai resising in the UK can apply from the UK.

Ignoring applications at the border, not necessarily so from the UK. The French web pages state that evidence of permission to reside in the UK is required, and that an ILR sticker in an expired passport is not acceptable. They demand a BRP or sticker in an unexpired passport.

[liddelljohn]

French embassy in bangkok has told me 3 times that all applications must go via VFS they cannot accept them in person ,, although they did say that if they could the visa would be granted as my wife had several schengen visas several years ago,, but now the rules have changed , BUT VFS WILL ONLY HANDLE VISAS ENTERING FRANCE BY AIR

she cannot apply in UK as we reside in THAILAND thats what we have been told several times when in UK

I have contacted the commision but there seems no way to enforce EU rules for ordinary people

[theoldgit]

Not wishing to be pernickety but it's worth pointing out, to avoid any confusion to other members, that visa application for a French Schengen Visa in Thailand are handled but TLScontact, not VFS.

Whilst I don't doubt what you say about the French Consulate, who do seem to be a law be a law unto themselves and do ride roughshod over the Schengen Rules, insisting that applications are deposited at their Application Centre, for which you pay a fee, however TLScontact do say an their website:

The TLScontact procedure is not compulsory, applicants can also go directly to the Embassy's Visa Sector to submit their application in person. Applicants must set Embassy appointments through our call center: +66 (0)2696 3888+66 (0)2696 3888.

TLScontact are only a glorified mailbox, they only accept and check the application and supporting documents, they cannot say that they will not process applications if the applicant wishes to travel by ferry or train, they have to forward the application to the French Visa section..

I would be interested to learn if the French Visa Section themselves have told applications that they will not issue visas to those who wish to travel by ferry or train. My partner has had a couple of Schengen Visas and she travelled by Eurostar both times.

Whilst the EU Commission might not act when the French run roughshod over the rules, SOLVIT will help http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm. SOLVIT are facilitators and will intervene to cut through issues, certainly when we complained to them last year the French rolled over pretty quickly.

[beano2274]

So teatree you live in Europe (not the UK)? As I read your post it seems are in the UK, are you a UK citizen, if so then you cannot use the Freedom of Movement ruling.

I have just returned from the UK with my Thai wife, she has a Residence Card from Germany as I work here (am British) and use the Freedom of Movement rule, we entered the UK, she was asked about a Visa, and I gave the Officer a letter from the UKVI and her Residence Card, he stamped her into the UK no problems. The UK unlucky for Donutz only accepts Estonian and German Residence cards at the moment, a fact that I know he is well aware of, but maybe some others might not be.

Edited November 9, 2014 by beano2274

[Richard W]

So teatree you live in Europe (not the UK)? As I read your post it seems are in the UK, are you a UK citizen, if so then you cannot use the Freedom of Movement ruling.

The freedom of movement rules allow him and his wife free movement to any EEA country of which he is not a citizen. That's what the rules are for! If he and his wife married in the UK, they should be able to cross any EEA border at an immigration post that they can reach. They may, however, have problems with a land crossing into Eire.

I have just returned from the UK with my Thai wife, she has a Residence Card from Germany as I work here (am British) and use the Freedom of Movement rule, we entered the UK, she was asked about a Visa, and I gave the Officer a letter from the UKVI and her Residence Card, he stamped her into the UK no problems. The UK unlucky for Donutz only accepts Estonian and German Residence cards at the moment, a fact that I know he is well aware of, but maybe some others might not be.

Don't be too smug. The UK may accept 5-year German 'temporary' residence cards (Article 10), but according to the EEA regulations the UK does not accept foreign 10-year permanent residence cards (Article 20). You may have plans for your wife to be a UK resident or EEA citizen before you hit that issue. Edited November 9, 2014 by Richard W

[Donutz]

- Thai resising in the UK can apply from the UK.

Ignoring applications at the border, not necessarily so from the UK. The French web pages state that evidence of permission to reside in the UK is required, and that an ILR sticker in an expired passport is not acceptable. They demand a BRP or sticker in an unexpired passport.

That would be an incorrect application of the rules (freedom of movement directive), as there are no requirements regarding residency status in the country of origin (departure), neither any requirements about the expiry date of the passport. Infact it would be possible to travel on an expires passport ( Brax rulling?) though that certainly would not be a smooth process! Proper application of both Schengen rules and the more standard, common, types of travellers under Freedom of Movement seem two things which are too much to ask for when it comes to proper application of the rules.

French embassy in bangkok has told me 3 times that all applications must go via VFS they cannot accept them in person

Which would be a violation of the EU Schengen rules, all Schengen embassies are required to inform all applicants about being able to chose to apply via the embassy directly or via an external party. Sadly some embassies make no mention at all that VFS or TLS are entirely optional, glorified, mailbox handlers. Or other embassies who do mention that you have a choice try to persuade people that the external party is the better option... (lol). It is, for the embassy, as it saves them time and thus money.

,, although they did say that if they could the visa would be granted as my wife had several schengen visas several years ago,, but now the rules have changed , BUT VFS WILL ONLY HANDLE VISAS ENTERING FRANCE BY AIR

she cannot apply in UK as we reside in THAILAND thats what we have been told several times when in UK

I have contacted the commision but there seems no way to enforce EU rules for ordinary people

Which is failure of VFS, which the embassy is responsible for. And a fine example why I think that an "appointed external serviceprovider" generally is not the better choice.

Writing to the EU should have effects in the long run. For more direct help there is Solvit. See TOG's reply.

[7by7]

she cannot apply in UK as we reside in THAILAND thats what we have been told several times when in UK

I believe the usual Schengen rule is that applicants should apply in their country of residence; unless they have a valid, urgent reason for travel.

However, I understand that qualifying family members of an EEA nationals can apply anywhere, provided they will be travelling with or to join their EEA national family member.

Maybe, Donutz, you can confirm?

[Donutz]

Indeed 7by7. Regular applicants should applu from the country they have legal residence in. So a regular Thai should apply in BKK. But if they'd happen to be in the UK on holiday and some urgent manner came up, they could request being granted an application in the UK for a Schengen visa (say the death of a close relative who lives in Germany, it would be silly and a lot of hassle to rush from LHR to BKK and then to Germany...

A Thai who also has a residence permit for say the UK (or Canada, or Japan or, ...) could also apply from those countries since they are legally residents there. These people thus have the option to apply from the UK or TH.

Non-EU nationals traveling with their EU spouse (or joining their spouse) could aplpy from anywhere as they should be granted every vacility by embassies, at the border etc. in order to grand them access to any EU country they are a national of. If I (Dutchy) would be in say Canada with my Thai wife and I'd wish to go to the UK I (well my wife...) would be in my right to appl for a UK visa from Canada. And UKVI should issue it. These are EU rights on access (freedom of movement for family members) and thus overrule the Schengen and UK visa rules.

[liddelljohn]

Sorry when i stated VFS i oid mean TLS over the years i have dealt with both .

My wife does not have UK residence but she does have a 10 year multi entry Visitor visa for UK and has had numerous Schengen visas in hte past for Germany Denmark and France ,, but in last 3 years we have encountered nothing but obstruction trying to get a Franch one for ferry travel or Channel tunnel from UK ....TLS and French embassy in Bangkok and thailand insist the will only issue visas for AIR travel ????? with hotel bookings ,, a car touring holiday with family does not compute .

I am going to try again in new year in person at French embassy in BKK with copies of EU spouse travel quotations

[pj123]

French embassy in bangkok has told me 3 times that all applications must go via VFS they cannot accept them in person ,, although they did say that if they could the visa would be granted as my wife had several schengen visas several years ago,, but now the rules have changed , BUT VFS WILL ONLY HANDLE VISAS ENTERING FRANCE BY AIR

she cannot apply in UK as we reside in THAILAND thats what we have been told several times when in UK

I have contacted the commision but there seems no way to enforce EU rules for ordinary people

Have the rules changed recently? Myself (UK National) and six Thai relatives visited the UK and France in October 2013. The Schengen visas were all issued for travel to France on the understanding that we would travel via Eurostar from London.

If the rules have changed, my solution would be to apply saying we will fly direct to France by air from Bangkok. After the visa is issued, you just change your travel plans.

Edited November 13, 2014 by pj123

[Donutz]

The rules have not changed since 2009. He has met either incompetent or unwilling consular staff at the French embassies. His wife could and can apply (directly) at the embassy in TH or -since she is his spouse- also in the UK or at the border. Means of transport obviously do not matter either, but apparantly some (embassy? TLS?) staff lack common sense...

Edited November 13, 2014 by Donutz

[myprivate]

Has anybody actually done this? I mean a British guy with Thai wife travelling from Dover to France by ferry, or from St Pancreas train station to Paris on Eurostar, when the Thai wife does not have a pre-issued Schengen visa.

I'm going on holiday to the UK and France with my Thai wife very soon, we were married in Thailand (not UK). If I can avoid the hassle a getting a Schengan visa for her in Thailand then it's great news. But I'm skeptical and I hate uncertainty. Anybody actually done it?

[bobrussell]

I know the UK plays by the rules. I have friend who is an EU citizen who took his Thai wife to the UK and she got a free UK visa.

Anyone had any luck getting a visa from the continent?

I can assure you that the UK authorities do not play by the rules. The Visa4UK website demands pages of information that is specifically not to be required. They may process EEA permits properly in some countries but they make up the rules as they go along in others!

The only bit they do get right is that it is free!

[BIGJIMMY]

A friend of mine took the ferry over from Dover with his Mrs, they are married and she was only on a 6 month visit visa, they took the Thai wedding certs and all the translations and she got stamped in, they then drove into Holland via Belgium to see him Mum.

[7by7]

That should be all that is necessary; but sometimes French immigration are not so accommodating!

They can delay you considerably while they check all the paperwork etc. and even refuse entry if they decide that it isn't all in order.

Hence my advice when travelling to other EEA states, Schengen or otherwise, is get the appropriate visas in advance.

[mgb]

Beside both passports and the marriage certificate there is no paperwork for checking.

[7by7]

Ideally; yes.

Remember, though, that if married in Thailand then an acceptable translation of the marriage certificate is required as well. For the Schengen states that usually means a translation certified by the Thai MFA in Bangkok.

The advice from the EU in Travel documents for non-EU family members is:-

"It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot."

In other words, best to get a visa in advance.

But the choice is yours.

[durhamboy]

Is a UK BRP sufficient evidence along with the marriage cert?