Pros Cons and Misunderstandings

[ianf]

Interesting. I took my Thai wife for her first visit to Europe last year and she absolutely loved it. Wants to go back and live there. Se can't stand Thailand any more as she thinks the place has degenerated (mainly to do with corruption, dishonesty and so forth); so we are looking to sell our house in Chiang Mai and buy in France. I do point out the drawbacks: no maid, expensive living and so on, but she really wants to go. I personally don't trust Thailand any more. 6 years here, after 20 years of visits, opens my eyes to the hidden nastiness behind the nice smiles. Also I've picked up an illness here I would never have got in the West. So I'm disillusioned and look forward to releasing equity so we can move on.

[Toknarok]

Let's leave "America" for a moment, if I may, and do a couple of minor comparisons.

Cost of housing in the USA and Australia seems much the same, as do taxes, extremely high costs for mobile phone contracts and internet. The thing that got me on a visit to the USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia. I can afford to live here in Chiang Mai on my pension, I can afford 24/7 internet, and eating out, registering and insuring the car. I could NOT do that in Australia.

Re: the comment on sidewalks/footpaths. In Chiang Mai they spend nothing on them, few walk on them, and everyone uses them to park their scooters (called motor bikes/sais here).

Seems the USA and Australia have the same attitude to dog poop and litter. You or your pooch drop it - you pick it up. I've actually seen that done here by a non-farang. Compare that to China where everything is dropped and left; under the table, out on the street.

No thanks! I'll stay with Chiang Mai!!

"USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia" - FHS!!! - get your facts right! - Australia has GST at 10% and the Abbott gov want to increase it..

I think Masuk was referring to the adding of taxes onto the price of an item when you pay for it. EG an item is priced at ten dollars but when you go to the till to pay there is a tax (VAT, GST or State Tax) of 10%. You therefore must pay eleven dollars for the item. I got caught out by this several times in South Africa. In Australia the 10% VAT is included in the listed price, just as it is in Thailand.

[AYJAYDEE]

Let's leave "America" for a moment, if I may, and do a couple of minor comparisons.

Cost of housing in the USA and Australia seems much the same, as do taxes, extremely high costs for mobile phone contracts and internet. The thing that got me on a visit to the USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia. I can afford to live here in Chiang Mai on my pension, I can afford 24/7 internet, and eating out, registering and insuring the car. I could NOT do that in Australia.

Re: the comment on sidewalks/footpaths. In Chiang Mai they spend nothing on them, few walk on them, and everyone uses them to park their scooters (called motor bikes/sais here).

Seems the USA and Australia have the same attitude to dog poop and litter. You or your pooch drop it - you pick it up. I've actually seen that done here by a non-farang. Compare that to China where everything is dropped and left; under the table, out on the street.

No thanks! I'll stay with Chiang Mai!!

"USA was the nasty habit of adding sales tax/GST, after you've decided you have just enough to pay for something. Thank heavens that's not done here in Thailand or Australia" - FHS!!! - get your facts right! - Australia has GST at 10% and the Abbott gov want to increase it..

I think Masuk was referring to the adding of taxes onto the price of an item when you pay for it. EG an item is priced at ten dollars but when you go to the till to pay there is a tax (VAT, GST or State Tax) of 10%. You therefore must pay eleven dollars for the item. I got caught out by this several times in South Africa. In Australia the 10% VAT is included in the listed price, just as it is in Thailand.

you cant multiply by 1.1?

[Incobart]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

[orpheus454]

My post that David 48 quoted was an assessment as noted by my Thai wife. It is what she has observed. In the end she prefers Thailand(As do I) over what you have to give to live in the states. You give up a lot to live here. While the US claims to be the land of the free it is actually the furthest from it but very few ever really look at it. Most are oblivious to the reality.

Bingo!

I generally use the term "deluded", but "oblivious to the reality" is fine with me.

[villagefarang]

Among our friends living in the West, those who are comfortable and relatively free of money worries, prefer living there and visiting Thailand. In each case the Thai wives have made friends, drive and find they have greater personal and social independence than in Thailand. In my experience this is especially true if they come from a lower class or otherwise stigmatized background in Thailand and have been able to find a new identity in the West.

If one is struggling financially or the wife hasn’t been able to adjust to the language and culture, then I can see the pull of Thailand. I think it has more to do with the dynamics of the couple than any inherent superiority of one place over the other. We don’t all have the same priorities in life.

For six years we divided our time between Thailand and the West and came to the same conclusion as the OP, that the States are a great place to visit but we prefer living in Thailand, not least because we already have everything here but would need to start all over again if we move to the West.

[simple1]

Wife and I have lived together for 18 years. Approx 14 years in various locations (Sydney, Melbourne and SE Queensland) in Oz and 4 years in Pattaya (her home town).

Been back in Oz for 6 months (Noosaville) & wife loves it here as it's clean, beautiful beaches, good food - in her opinion Thai food better than in Thailand. In my words, 'transparency' if need to deal with government agencies, she hates the petty corruption in Thailand, overall for her & I a lot better quality of life. When I'm gone she currently plans to return to Pattaya as we have a paid up house and so on & to be close to her extended family and be Grandma. Really the only thing that we both miss are the younger children in the extended family, but she has now discovered how to use Facebook! I know a number of Thais living in Oz, none of whom plan or wish to return to Thailand, other than visiting familiy every year or two.

If at some point life gets financially tough will return to live permanently in Pattaya, but not something either of us truly wants to do.

[bkk_mike]

My wife likes both London and Bangkok.

In London, the taxes are higher, but we're fortunate in that the kids are in state schools ranked as outstanding by Ofsted, so although I'm paying a LOT more tax, I'm probably about as well off as I was in Thailand where I was paying for their International school.

The biggest difference is that we don't have a car there, but then we live near a tube station so we don't need a car there. (Or need one so infrequently that I rent one.)

I'm fortunate in that I bought my house in London back in the 90s, so I've not been affected by the increase in rents, which would have obviously been a bigger issue otherwise.

[NeverSure]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

About perhaps a year ago there was thread asking which country was the best to live in. Our friend Naam posted simply:

"The United States of America."

He lived in Florida for a few years but ran into visa hassles.

He has more than 20K posts and I can't find it. But he said it.

[David48]

Interesting. I took my Thai wife for her first visit to Europe last year and she absolutely loved it. Wants to go back and live there. Se can't stand Thailand any more as she thinks the place has degenerated (mainly to do with corruption, dishonesty and so forth); so we are looking to sell our house in Chiang Mai and buy in France. I do point out the drawbacks: no maid, expensive living and so on, but she really wants to go. I personally don't trust Thailand any more. 6 years here, after 20 years of visits, opens my eyes to the hidden nastiness behind the nice smiles. Also I've picked up an illness here I would never have got in the West. So I'm disillusioned and look forward to releasing equity so we can move on.

Ian ... you have a Maid ...

I can just dream ... and quietly a little jealous!

Good luck with curing the bug you got in Thailand.

If you live in Aix-en-Provence... I'm visiting ... my favourite place in France!

.

[beachproperty]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Guess you don't do much reading then!

Google best countries in the world to live and the US will pop on most if not all!

but since you wrote " the best place to leave on the planet ...?" you probably are right ....the US would not make the list as the best place to leave

[David48]

Some great posts above ... appreciate the real life experiences.

C 102, VF, S1, b_m, NS and many others ...

Edited October 28, 2014 by David48

[NeverSure]

Among our friends living in the West, those who are comfortable and relatively free of money worries, prefer living there and visiting Thailand. In each case the Thai wives have made friends, drive and find they have greater personal and social independence than in Thailand. In my experience this is especially true if they come from a lower class or otherwise stigmatized background in Thailand and have been able to find a new identity in the West.

If one is struggling financially or the wife hasn’t been able to adjust to the language and culture, then I can see the pull of Thailand. I think it has more to do with the dynamics of the couple than any inherent superiority of one place over the other. We don’t all have the same priorities in life.

For six years we divided our time between Thailand and the West and came to the same conclusion as the OP, that the States are a great place to visit but we prefer living in Thailand, not least because we already have everything here but would need to start all over again if we move to the West.

VillageFarang, the American who is painting the inside of my house as we speak, was with an NGO near your fine city of Chiang Rai for 14 years working with the Hill Tribe People. He came back to the US in 2006. He married a Hill Tribe Woman and they had kids. They are in the US in my relatively small town and there is no way she wants to go back. She does want to get her mother here and they are working on that.

Now I know technically she isn't perhaps Thai, but she can speak the Hill Tribe language and Thai. This painter and their kids can speak all three languages.

She absolutely loves the cleanliness and order and freedom in the US which perhaps she had in a lesser degree than would a Thai. But she doesn't ever want to go back, even to visit once she gets her mother here.

Edited October 28, 2014 by NeverSure

[thaiguzzi]

Good OP, good thread. Me, after 11 wonderful years here permanently in the NE, and my son just turned 9, i'm undecided, as is my wife. She's visited the UK on holidays, max 6 weeks at a time, and likes it, but holidays and living (and having to work) are two different things. But it's come to a point where i may have to sacrifice my life here, so that my son grows up English with an English Dad and a Thai Mum, rather than growing up as a Thai boy with a Felang dad. It's not an education thing, more a worldly wise, street wise thing. When his grandfather is gone and he reaches the age of 21, he inherits a rather large some of money from a trust fund, and i would love to see him globetrot the world blowing £25k per annum for 2-3 years (and still have plenty left). Growing up here with all the rampant Nationalism, introvert, racist stuff etc, would hinder his look on the wider world. Still not sure, but i cannot be selfish with my decision.

[AYJAYDEE]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to leave on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Guess you don't do much reading then!

Google best countries in the world to live and the US will pop on most if not all!

but since you wrote " the best place to leave on the planet ...?" you probably are right ....the US would not make the list as the best place to leave

try again pal!! doesnt make #1 once.

https://www.udemy.com/blog/best-countries-to-live-in/

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/rich-countries/the-10-best-countries-to-live-in-2014/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2784541/Its-official-Australia-best-country-world-live-Canberra-best-city.html

http://askushowto.com/top-11-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/08/19/best-place-to-live_n_5691413.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-picked-among-best-places-to-live-1.1367724

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/revealed-the-best-and-worst-countries-in-the-world-to-grow-old-9767639.html

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/25/worlds-best-cities-lifestyle-real-estate-mercer-vienna-geneva_slide.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/oecd-better-life-index-2011-5?op=1

Edited October 28, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[MediaWatcher]

JAFO, on 28 Oct 2014 - 08:11, said:

My post that David 48 quoted was an assessment as noted by my Thai wife. It is what she has observed. In the end she prefers Thailand(As do I) over what you have to give to live in the states. You give up a lot to live here. While the US claims to be the land of the free it is actually the furthest from it but very few ever really look at it. Most are oblivious to the reality.

Anyway it is what it is. Beauty is we all have choices. I have lived in Thailand more on than off since 2005. I had a few stretches where I was there 2+ years straight. My wife has been back with me here over 2.5 years, by the time we exit it will be 3+. I thinks that's plenty of real seat time to see what one may or may not like about a place. She has never once said ever during our time here that she wanted to stay or even asked me what I think about it staying, Its always been "When are we going home".

What I don't understand is those that "put down" their home country, and complain about how expensive things are, they seem to forget that that very same country is what supplied employment for them, also allowed them enough income to be able to move/settle in Thailand, this is something most, and I really do mean most, Thais will NEVER be able to do.... so for all the "pros and cons" your home country is still the better provider. JAFO, it will be interesting to see a follow up after you, and your wife, return to Thailand, then she may realise what she has left behind in the US.

[Incobart]

" I wanted my wife to see the "Real" US not what the media portrays as the best place to live on the planet." Who what where portrays the best place to live on the planet ...??? I heared of switserland, norway, singapore, UK australia, new zealand . south africa ? .. I never heared the US ?!

Guess you don't do much reading then!

Google best countries in the world to live and the US will pop on most if not all!

but since you wrote " the best place to leave on the planet ...?" you probably are right ....the US would not make the list as the best place to leave

ok, i search google, open 4 first websites, didn't skip 1

* top 10 best cities in the world to live ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries/9477990/The-worlds-10-best-cities-to-live-in.html?frame=2311083 US not even in it ...

* wiki, best places to live .. top 25 .. us is at 23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities

* australia camberra = nr 1 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2784541/Its-official-Australia-best-country-world-live-Canberra-best-city.html

* official list 2014 top 10, US is not in it http://lifestyle9.com/worlds-best-country-to-live-in-2013/

maybe people in US get brainwashed, Thinking they the best :-)

[curtklay]

My wife grew up in Thailand. We met when we were in our 20's. She moved to the US and we married. Lived 40 years in California, where she worked, drove, we bought a house, and enjoyed a new life. When we started planning retirement, the cost of living in the US drove us back to Thailand. We built a nice house, drive a new car, and live well on our social security. But the illusion of Thailand as Paradise faded rather quickly, and the reality of Thai culture and lifestyle hit hard. She finds life here more difficult than I do. It is only the cost of living that keeps us here. After 5 years, we both agree that if we could afford an equivalent lifestyle back in California without working, we would be gone in a heartbeat. I'm not looking for anyone to agree or disagree. It's just the way it is for us.

Edited October 28, 2014 by curtklay

[MediaWatcher]

ianf, on 28 Oct 2014 - 10:15, said:

Interesting. I took my Thai wife for her first visit to Europe last year and she absolutely loved it. Wants to go back and live there. Se can't stand Thailand any more as she thinks the place has degenerated (mainly to do with corruption, dishonesty and so forth); so we are looking to sell our house in Chiang Mai and buy in France. I do point out the drawbacks: no maid, expensive living and so on, but she really wants to go. I personally don't trust Thailand any more. 6 years here, after 20 years of visits, opens my eyes to the hidden nastiness behind the nice smiles. Also I've picked up an illness here I would never have got in the West. So I'm disillusioned and look forward to releasing equity so we can move on.

My wife is much the same, at the moment she is back in Thailand, been there 2 months, visiting family.... she can't wait to get back to Australia.

[beachproperty]

your posts make it so easy I cant resist. everything you post is wrong!! lol

Well PAL! (Seems to be your word of choice) At least I posted my Thai wife's experience between the West and Thailand....That is what the post is about!

But then again you seem to just want a fight.....bad morning (or I guess I should say evening, as in US)? things not so good in "small town" America?

Edited October 28, 2014 by beachproperty

[AYJAYDEE]

your posts make it so easy I cant resist. everything you post is wrong!! lol

Well PAL! (Seems to be your word of choice) At least I posted my Thai wife's experience between the West and Thailand....That is what the post is about!

But then again you seem to just want a fight.....bad morning? things not so good in "small town" America?

so did I pal, so did I!! lol, two outta two wrong again!! lol youre battin a thousand!

[curtklay]

This thread has degenerated into a brawl. I suggest the mods close it.

[AYJAYDEE]

Well PAL! (Seems to be your word of choice) At least I posted my Thai wife's experience between the West and Thailand....That is what the post is about!

But then again you seem to just want a fight.....bad morning? things not so good in "small town" America?

so did I pal, so did I!! lol, two outta two wrong again!! lol youre battin a thousand!

Well, your reading and writing comprehension is obviously VERY limited as there is absolutely no mention of your wife's experiences ....Thailand vs West

Post #?

Good luck on the anger management! don't seem to be doing to well on that either!

Anyways ,....don't mind batting a thousand as the SF Giants are leading the world series!

yes there is.

[JAFO]

One paramount issue that separates many posters is children. Many of the expats in Thailand have decided to have another go round of kids later in life and I can see where people want to head back to a western country to ensure their children have an opportunity. Those are personal choices and as adults we live with those choices and consequences. I made a very cognizant decision to not have any children so I will never have to contend with that issue. I am not saying any choice is good or bad but I prefer my personal freedom. This is my time now. My wife and I want open freedom. We do not want children(or pets) to have that will alter our lives or force us to make radical changes in what we want to do. I raised my daughters and they are off and living life. I do not need to do it again.

With that said my wife and I live quite comfortably in Silicon valley. She drives a nice Lexus, has a part time job, does what she wants. But all that aside, she still does not care for it here. She prefers Thailand more which says a lot. In the OP that David quoted, it is what she stated and noticed. Now my wife has an MBA and is not easily caught up in the glitz and the moment. I can imagine that a farm girl who lived without their entire life would be blinded by it all and think the US is simply incredible. Best way to educate them is let them go to work and pay a few bills. See their check stub. see how much the government takes. See how much it costs to pay for a car, car insurance, petrol, etc. It will not take long for them to see it all for what it is. My wife on the other hand is older and sees things for what they are. She got her education and lived in BKK. She knows that corruption exists everywhere, the US just hides it better. Thailand has not figured out how to hide it like Mexico. She realizes the pro's and cons. She sees' the bills I have to pay and the costs and just cringes. She clearly sees that you cannot relax here in the US and that you have to be on the go all the time to sustain cash flow. Her friend with her husband just bought a house and spent $825,000. She did all the math and said. "BA". How do people do it? They have a mortgage of $3200, property tax of ~$9,000 a year until they die, $1100 a month home owners insurance, They have 2 cars with payments because no public transpo. So you can make a lot here but you burn a lot so people live on the edge. Now for the people with children wait until College. Plan on blowing big chunks of cash for a descent university.

There is no one answer for all. TV posters are all at different places in life with family, finances, expectations. We just happen to have lived both and Thailand works way better.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JAFO

[David48]

Gentlemen ... please ... there is no knockout punch here ...

There are many great places around the world to live ... in the States, I loved SanDiego or Boulder Co.

I'm more interested in what your Thai Partner thought of living in the West, her (and your) thoughts and observations, how she adapted and did you both (eventually) return to Thailand.

Leave the other conversations for the Pub please.

THANKS ...

.

[JAFO]

Gentlemen ... please ... there is no knockout punch here ...

There are many great places around the world to live ... in the States, I loved SanDiego or Boulder Co.

I'm more interested in what your Thai Partner thought of living in the West, her (and your) thoughts and observations, how she adapted and did you both (eventually) return to Thailand.

Leave the other conversations for the Pub please.

THANKS ...

.

Absolutely David, I enjoy what the other Thai folks comment about it here. My wife went to a Temple in Berkeley a few weeks ago. Met a number of Thai folk, she spoke with them. Most said its hard here in the US. Some liked it, others felt stuck but hoped they could stay long enough to bring family. She said a great number missed being home. Interestingly she said most lived in rented rooms with many others to be able to afford staying here. I guess for some that may work but It would never work for me. I did my roommate deal in college.

[krisb]

My wifes lived in Aus for nearly 3 years, more if you include holidays.

We both feel the same in that quality of life in Australia is much better than Thailand, but it comes at a price. Now with a young child its about schooling her here in Aus.

The only thing Thailand beats Australia on is low cost of living. That's it. Probably the only reason most move to Thailand.

I get if you originate from a colder country the warm Thai weather and beaches are appealing, but not for us Aussies.

My wife loves Australia, my family all get on well with her, foods better here than Thailand, beaches are better, medical better, no police corruption, and the list goes on.

So besides costing more to live here, and she misses her family a bit, she loves it here.

Now after reading members arguing over living in small cities and ghost towns,did I answer the op?

[smotherb]

My post that David 48 quoted was an assessment as noted by my Thai wife. It is what she has observed. In the end she prefers Thailand(As do I) over what you have to give to live in the states. You give up a lot to live here. While the US claims to be the land of the free it is actually the furthest from it but very few ever really look at it. Most are oblivious to the reality.

Anyway it is what it is. Beauty is we all have choices. I have lived in Thailand more on than off since 2005. I had a few stretches where I was there 2+ years straight. My wife has been back with me here over 2.5 years, by the time we exit it will be 3+. I thinks that's plenty of real seat time to see what one may or may not like about a place. She has never once said ever during our time here that she wanted to stay or even asked me what I think about it staying, Its always been "When are we going home".

My wife is Filipina, we went to the States shortly after we were married. She went back to college and graduated in the States. We lived in the Middle East for for several years, then went back to the PI for a couple of years. She wanted to return to the States. She wanted to work, to give our son a better education, and to have a better life. Of course, she was a bit different than the average Filipino; she had American friends, she learned to speak fluent American, she worked as a project manager for the State of Florida, she acclimated to American culture--even the individualist dimension. We now are retired in Thailand; we tried the PI, but we both prefer it here. She now has a pension, I do not. If we lived in the States, we would not have the financial freedom we enjoy here.

My Vietnamese wife had a similar experience. After a two year relationship in Vietnam, I returned to the States. She came to the US on business--she was an economist for an American firm--we rekindled our relationship and married. She found good employment as the CFO of a plastics firm. She too had American friends and business associates, acclimated to American culture, and lessened her need for things Vietnamese.

Key to both examples, I believe, is the fact they wanted to learn something else. They found good jobs, made friends, and acclimated to new a culture. Without those basics, it's difficult at best to take the girl off the farm.

[CNXTim]

I am Australian and have worked and lived in the Computer Industry since 1965.

I agree with your wifes observations on life in SoCal in general and have the same brickbats and bouquets to offer.

However, living in "Silicon Gulch" and I guess you mean around San Jose, is hardly "The real America" - try crusing around Detroit, Washington DC or one of the redneck midwest backwaters - that IS a shocking and depressing experience.

Happy to be approaching my dotage in Chiang Mai, love it.

[orientalsf]

This is probably the best post I've ever seen in all sites I've been on since 98'. It's insightful and just say things that are straight forward. I have not yet read all three pages, but like what I've seen so far. Thanks.