UN political chief criticizes Israel for new settlement plans

[Jay Sata]

What's the alternative? Keep the status quo for ever?

At some stage, things will have to change, but there appears to be no plans by Israel to do anything to resolve the situation.

If Israel doesn't do something to change things for the better for the Gazans, eventually it will come back to bite them on the bum.

Even if it takes a hundred years, eventually Israel will regret it didn't free the Gazans before they elected Hamas.

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza. Remember that quotation- you reap what you sow.

Last time I looked, Egypt wasn't shelling Gaza- Israel was.

Egypt keeps its border passes with the Gaza Strip under strict control, and is in the process of setting up a wider buffer

zone along the border. While Israel gets most of the flak, Egypt is effectively maintaining its own blockade on the Gaza

Strip, and is not very receptive to Hamas demands relating to these issues.

The tightening of the Egyptian blockade (mostly acting decisively against smuggling tunnels) after el-Sisi rose to power,

is the major cause of the economic crisis which Hamas faced, and which served as a background for some of the main

events of the past months.

That's fine but given the volatility in Egypt and Syria Israel is faced with the prospect that they do not want to ignite a religious war based on the sensitivity of the Temple Mount site.

How would they cope with ISIS?

Given that the USA doe not want to engage them I doubt Israel could cope.

Netanyahu puts all his eggs in one basket depending on weaponry winning every time.

The soft underbelly of Israel is the threat of captured soldiers,or remains of dead soldiers.

Just like the USA they have issues with headlines in domestic newspapers.

Bush never allowed pictures of dead soldiers brought back to the USA.

Imagine if the beheaded soldiers had been Jews and not Iraqis ?

Easy to bomb Gaza but a nightmare if they have to face the new order such as ISIS.

[thaibeachlovers]

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza.

Declare war on a sovereign nation, refuse to make peace for generations, destroy the infrastructure in Gaza when it is handed over to you, elect a terrorist group to represent you, use Gaza to as a rocket-launching pad and you get an armed terrorist camp with lots of restrictions on it. Who gets the blame for that?

Israel came about after a terrorist campaign by Zionists. PM Begin was a terrorist.

It's a bit rich for the Israelis to be complaining about "terrorists", especially when it is their policies that have brought about the campaign by Gazans oppressed for generations.

What would YOU do if you were a Gazan? Just accept your lot in life, or fight back?

[Ulysses G.]

What would YOU do if you were a Gazan? Just accept your lot in life, or fight back?

I would have made peace long ago. They have had numerous opportunities, including accepting the UN deal in 1948, instead of declaring war. The Palestinians have lost every war and every terrorist attack ends up hurting them far more than Israel. They complain about "unequal responses" militarily, but that is how the world works and if they were capable of dominating Israel, they would not hold back. They are like fish in a barrel and it is their responsibility to finally wake up and face that fact.

The Palestinians were the ones who started the violence and terrorism in the first place. It took the Jews almost two decades before they started responding in a serious way. Trying to blame Israel for starting the terrorism in the conflict is ignorant indeed.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[JDGRUEN]

What's the alternative? Keep the status quo for ever?

At some stage, things will have to change, but there appears to be no plans by Israel to do anything to resolve the situation.

If Israel doesn't do something to change things for the better for the Gazans, eventually it will come back to bite them on the bum.

Even if it takes a hundred years, eventually Israel will regret it didn't free the Gazans before they elected Hamas.

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza. Remember that quotation- you reap what you sow.

Last time I looked, Egypt wasn't shelling Gaza- Israel was.

Gaza - you mean that area that Israel completely left on their own dragging settlers off roof tops, leaving viable farms and olive groves and vineyards, power stations, water reservoirs... GAVE IT UP TOTALLY... Then later HAMAS turns Gaza into a rocket launching pad, a place to dig tunnels into Israel to invade and attack.... You mean that Gaza?

Ignorance is bliss...

[thaibeachlovers]

What would YOU do if you were a Gazan? Just accept your lot in life, or fight back?

I would have made peace long ago. They have had numerous opportunities, including accepting the UN deal in 1948, instead of declaring war. The Palestinians have lost every war and every terrorist attack ends up hurting them far more than Israel. They complain about "unequal responses" militarily, but that is how the world works and if they were capable of dominating Israel, they would not hold back. They are like fish in a barrel and it is their responsibility to finally wake up and face that fact.

The Palestinians were the ones who started the violence and terrorism in the first place. It took the Jews almost two decades before they started responding in a serious way. Trying to blame Israel for starting the terrorism in the conflict is ignorant indeed.

It took the Jews almost two decades before they started responding in a serious way.

You need to learn some history about the start of Israel, including the forcible removal of Arabs from their homes, which they had occupied for generations.

The Palestinians were the ones who started the violence and terrorism in the first place

You must have overlooked the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. that carried out terrorist attacks against Arabs after WW2.

[thaibeachlovers]

What's the alternative? Keep the status quo for ever?

At some stage, things will have to change, but there appears to be no plans by Israel to do anything to resolve the situation.

If Israel doesn't do something to change things for the better for the Gazans, eventually it will come back to bite them on the bum.

Even if it takes a hundred years, eventually Israel will regret it didn't free the Gazans before they elected Hamas.

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza. Remember that quotation- you reap what you sow.

Last time I looked, Egypt wasn't shelling Gaza- Israel was.

Gaza - you mean that area that Israel completely left on their own dragging settlers off roof tops, leaving viable farms and olive groves and vineyards, power stations, water reservoirs... GAVE IT UP TOTALLY... Then later HAMAS turns Gaza into a rocket launching pad, a place to dig tunnels into Israel to invade and attack.... You mean that Gaza?

Ignorance is bliss...

I mean the Gaza that the Israelis were forced to leave, but refused to allow to become independent or carry out trade from the port.

[Ulysses G.]

What would YOU do if you were a Gazan? Just accept your lot in life, or fight back?

I would have made peace long ago. They have had numerous opportunities, including accepting the UN deal in 1948, instead of declaring war. The Palestinians have lost every war and every terrorist attack ends up hurting them far more than Israel. They complain about "unequal responses" militarily, but that is how the world works and if they were capable of dominating Israel, they would not hold back. They are like fish in a barrel and it is their responsibility to finally wake up and face that fact.

The Palestinians were the ones who started the violence and terrorism in the first place. It took the Jews almost two decades before they started responding in a serious way. Trying to blame Israel for starting the terrorism in the conflict is ignorant indeed.

It took the Jews almost two decades before they started responding in a serious way.

You need to learn some history about the start of Israel, including the forcible removal of Arabs from their homes, which they had occupied for generations.

The Palestinians were the ones who started the violence and terrorism in the first place

You must have overlooked the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. that carried out terrorist attacks against Arabs after WW2.

I pretty obviously know a LOT more than you do about the history of Israel. The Arabs started attacking Jews around the turn of last century and in an organized way around the beginning of the 1920s and the Jews did not start striking back seriously until about the mid 1930s which is when .Haganah and the others started responding. .

[Jai Dee]

A post containing repetitive off-topic diatribe has been deleted from this thread.

[Morch]

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza. Remember that quotation- you reap what you sow.

Last time I looked, Egypt wasn't shelling Gaza- Israel was.

Egypt keeps its border passes with the Gaza Strip under strict control, and is in the process of setting up a wider buffer

zone along the border. While Israel gets most of the flak, Egypt is effectively maintaining its own blockade on the Gaza

Strip, and is not very receptive to Hamas demands relating to these issues.

The tightening of the Egyptian blockade (mostly acting decisively against smuggling tunnels) after el-Sisi rose to power,

is the major cause of the economic crisis which Hamas faced, and which served as a background for some of the main

events of the past months.

That's fine but given the volatility in Egypt and Syria Israel is faced with the prospect that they do not want to ignite a religious war based on the sensitivity of the Temple Mount site.

How would they cope with ISIS?

Given that the USA doe not want to engage them I doubt Israel could cope.

Netanyahu puts all his eggs in one basket depending on weaponry winning every time.

The soft underbelly of Israel is the threat of captured soldiers,or remains of dead soldiers.

Just like the USA they have issues with headlines in domestic newspapers.

Bush never allowed pictures of dead soldiers brought back to the USA.

Imagine if the beheaded soldiers had been Jews and not Iraqis ?

Easy to bomb Gaza but a nightmare if they have to face the new order such as ISIS.

Egypt is relatively calm as far as the Middle East goes these days. Most of the troubles are in the Sinai peninsula, which while bordering with Israel, is also being seeing stricter enforcement by the Egyptian armed forces. Syria is effectively not much of a threat to Israel at the moment.

There is no Israeli interest at starting religious tensions over the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. The current conflarguration like many past instances is not based on any actual changes to regulation of the Temple Mount or even an official attempt to change them. The Temple Mount is a constant hub of rumor mongering and friction - nutters from both sides, coupled with interested parties got an easy task cut for them if they want to start a mess. Not the first time this happened, will not be the last.

Again IS? Not sure what IS got to do with it. IS isn't currently a direct threat on Israel, and so far, not a major player within the Palestinian public (or Israeli Arabs, for that matter). If and when IS sphere of control will come closer to Israel, and if it will take root with Palestinians - I am pretty confident Israel will be able to deal with it, although it won't be pretty. The USA is not keen to put boots on the ground, for Israel that's less of an issue (provided IS becomes a neighbor).

Beheaded soldiers? Well, for starters you're talking about the IDF, a notch or two above the Iraqi armed forces. Not going to be some wholesale surrender/retreat scenes. Second, you misjudge the Israeli public's reaction - kidnapped soldiers are indeed a soft spot (as they should be) but this very rarely translates into despair and defeatism. If anything, it would give any government more leeway from the public to get back at the other side.

Assuming that IS does pretty much as Hamas, and embeds itself within civilian population, the difference is not so great. Otherwise, this is a sort of fighting IDF been carrying out for years, nothing too special about it. The halo of fear and terror IS enjoys comes from it facing mostly militias, badly trained and unmotivated armed forces - they are not to be belittled, but no need to make them more than they are.

One issue that does come up quite often on Israeli political debate, has to do with the prospects of IS taking root with Palestinians after they gain independence. Or for that matter, Palestine becoming a reality, with control of Jordan's border, and Jordan succumbing to IS. That's one of them things which might serve as an excuse for not compromising, and yet cannot be brushed aside as a non-issue.

[Morch]

So it seems according to you all the problems the people of Gaza are having are 100 percent on the Israelis? Nothing about Egypt? Nothing about the rest of the Islamic world? Nothing about rockets? Nothing about their own choices in electing Hamas? Nothing about tunnels? Nothing about financial corruption of their leaders? Nothing about the oppression of their own people by their own leaders? Nothing about their genocidal antisemitic charter? Nothing about their non-acceptance of the existence of Israel?

That can't be taken seriously.

Occupy a people and treat them badly for generations and you get Gaza. Remember that quotation- you reap what you sow.

Last time I looked, Egypt wasn't shelling Gaza- Israel was.

Gaza - you mean that area that Israel completely left on their own dragging settlers off roof tops, leaving viable farms and olive groves and vineyards, power stations, water reservoirs... GAVE IT UP TOTALLY... Then later HAMAS turns Gaza into a rocket launching pad, a place to dig tunnels into Israel to invade and attack.... You mean that Gaza?

Ignorance is bliss...

I mean the Gaza that the Israelis were forced to leave, but refused to allow to become independent or carry out trade from the port.

Gaza cannot be independent by definition. It is part of the Palestinian Authority's mandate to run the Gaza Strip. With the Hamas-Fatah split, a very problematic situation arose. It was not only Israel that refused to allow Gaza to become "independent", all the donor countries, Egypt and the PA itself held the same position. No one was planning on having two Palestinian states.

Was Israel supposed to play nice with Hamas? Let them bring whatever they like by sea? Open borders for suicide bombers? It is not like all was well and Israel spoiled the fun.

Conflicts like this are rarely one sided when it comes to sides owning a share of the blame.

[Seastallion]

Gaza - you mean that area that Israel completely left on their own dragging settlers off roof tops, leaving viable farms and olive groves and vineyards, power stations, water reservoirs... GAVE IT UP TOTALLY... Then later HAMAS turns Gaza into a rocket launching pad, a place to dig tunnels into Israel to invade and attack.... You mean that Gaza?

Ignorance is bliss...

I mean the Gaza that the Israelis were forced to leave, but refused to allow to become independent or carry out trade from the port.

Gaza cannot be independent by definition. It is part of the Palestinian Authority's mandate to run the Gaza Strip. With the Hamas-Fatah split, a very problematic situation arose. It was not only Israel that refused to allow Gaza to become "independent", all the donor countries, Egypt and the PA itself held the same position. No one was planning on having two Palestinian states.

Was Israel supposed to play nice with Hamas? Let them bring whatever they like by sea? Open borders for suicide bombers? It is not like all was well and Israel spoiled the fun.

Conflicts like this are rarely one sided when it comes to sides owning a share of the blame.

Come on Morch, the blockade has "security" as an excuse for oppression. What reason can you imagine that crayons, nutmeg, school books, dried figs......the list of items is long...would be prohibited?

[Morch]

Ignorance is bliss...

I mean the Gaza that the Israelis were forced to leave, but refused to allow to become independent or carry out trade from the port.

Gaza cannot be independent by definition. It is part of the Palestinian Authority's mandate to run the Gaza Strip. With the Hamas-Fatah split, a very problematic situation arose. It was not only Israel that refused to allow Gaza to become "independent", all the donor countries, Egypt and the PA itself held the same position. No one was planning on having two Palestinian states.

Was Israel supposed to play nice with Hamas? Let them bring whatever they like by sea? Open borders for suicide bombers? It is not like all was well and Israel spoiled the fun.

Conflicts like this are rarely one sided when it comes to sides owning a share of the blame.

Come on Morch, the blockade has "security" as an excuse for oppression. What reason can you imagine that crayons, nutmeg, school books, dried figs......the list of items is long...would be prohibited?

I am not saying, nor did I ever say, that all the items included in the list make sense. No argument there.

That, however, does not mean that there is no security issue whatsoever, or that the blockade is wholesale oppression and nothing more.

As with most things, not a black and white thing.

[simple1]

Getting back to the topic...

Figures revealed in the Israeli media show the Netanyahu government is financing a massive growth in settlements.

Figures for the 2015 budget show a rise of 240 per cent in Israel’s funding for the World Zionist Organisation’s settlement ­division.

Israeli Labor politician Stav Shaffir says this money is being diverted to settlements due to “an extortionist lobby of the extreme right wing”.

Israel’s settlements are clearly the main factor now fuelling the conflict: they are systematically eating up land which Palestinians say should be their state and are often being built on privately owned Palestinian land.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/settlers-fuel-cycle-of-bloodshed-fear-is-taking-hold-in-palestinian-and-israeli-homes/story-e6frg6so-1227131215905

Really no point in keep discusing the Two State Solution. In a recent media report it was claimed that 60% of the current Israeli Cabinet do not support a Two State Solution and a recent poll claims nor do 75% of Israelis.

[Jingthing]

There are all kinds of polls and my impression is that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution but don't think the Palestinians are ready to be reasonable or to recognize their right to exist in any borders. A majority of Palestinians definitely do not want two states, they want one state, all for them, with the Jews gone or dead.

So because of that feeling, yes the majority of Israelis are OK with this status quo which does include periodic flareups for the time being, but that doesn't mean the majority think that is feasible forever.

Nobody is denying settlements aren't a big issue but it is absurdly naive to think they are the only problem or if the settlements had never happened that the Palestinian demands would be met by that alone (SEE ABOVE).

Currently the hot thing now of course is the fallout from the recent Gaza war (nothing about settlements in that) and also the overblown Palestinian reaction about the holy site thing.

So if a two state solution is off the table, what's your solution? Because frankly nobody really seems to have one that is remotely possible anytime soon.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[simple1]

There are all kinds of polls and my impression is that the majority of Israelis support a two state solution but don't think the Palestinians are ready to be reasonable or to recognize their right to exist in any borders. A majority of Palestinians definitely do not want two states, they want one state, all for them, with the Jews gone or dead.

So because of that feeling, yes the majority of Israelis are OK with this status quo which does include periodic flareups for the time being, but that doesn't mean the majority think that is feasible forever.

Nobody is denying settlements aren't a big issue but it is absurdly naive to think they are the only problem or if the settlements had never happened that the Palestinian demands would be met by that alone (SEE ABOVE).

Currently the hot thing now of course is the fallout from the recent Gaza war (nothing about settlements in that) and also the overblown Palestinian reaction about the holy site thing.

So if a two state solution is off the table, what's your solution? Because frankly nobody really seems to have one that is remotely possible anytime soon.

Don't have a possible solution that would be acceptable to both parties, nor it appears do the professionals who've been working on the various issues for decades to finally transistion to relatively peaceful co-existance. Fully agree with your last sentence, it's why I commented not much point in the constant circular arguments on this forum concerning a Two State Solution.

As rarely occurs in the course of history, it's a hope that at some point an epiphany leads to unforseen diplomatic & political breakthrough. As you & others have said with the current players, highly unlikely.

[Ulysses G.]

Really no point in keep discusing the Two State Solution. In a recent media report it was claimed that 60% of the current Israeli Cabinet do not support a Two State Solution and a recent poll claims nor do 75% of Israelis.

The polls I have seen say that the majority of Israelis DO support a Two State Solution, but only with restrictions to prevent the Palestinian State from turning into another armed camp - like Gaza - dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

ted to the destruction of Isreal.