DNA results from Ko Tao village head’s son don't match traces on slain British tourists

[CapFarmer]

The British media have been very quiet no interviews with friends who were there at the time, also Sean gave an interview with the Mail on Sunday this as not been published yet! I get the feeling they have been told to hold off because they know more than us, I expect a big explosion with in the British media once the truth is allowed to be told.

There would be absolutely no reason to withhold interviews and statements in the UK after all the people are home. In fact, it would not be legal to not allow statements to the press.

This is a glaring hole in the conspiracy theories.

Most country's police find it is counter productive to discuss on-going investigations. Thailand this doesn't apply, because there is no such thing, but I am sure that UK will have plenty of statements after the inquest is complete.

Didn't read the posts you were responding to, did you?

No, not very closely. I withdraw my comment as doesn't appear to apply to this thread.

[MJP]

Why don't the British authorities get a DNA sample from the parents of the two suspects --no need to involve the RTP I am surprised that the British media haven't done it themselves seeing the interest in the UK

The British media have been very quiet no interviews with friends who were there at the time, also Sean gave an interview with the Mail on Sunday this as not been published yet! I get the feeling they have been told to hold off because they know more than us, I expect a big explosion with in the British media once the truth is allowed to be told.

There would be absolutely no reason to withhold interviews and statements in the UK after all the people are home. In fact, it would not be legal to not allow statements to the press.

This is a glaring hole in the conspiracy theories.

Most country's police find it is counter productive to discuss on-going investigations. Thailand this doesn't apply, because there is no such thing, but I am sure that UK will have plenty of statements after the inquest is complete.

Didn't read the posts you were responding to, did you?

But why is the press so quiet in UK ? All they report on his what the Thai government say. I just find it strange.

There's nothing new to report until the British police report and the inquest.

Why nothing from the other kids that were there? Nothing from Sean?

I'll wait for the British police report.

[TTom911]

this is a farce (scandal) from start to finish... waiting for the British report... NOTHING else ... if (I say IF..) they decide to give up then it's their choice... we, SURE, did our bit... as utterly sad it is for the victims and the families, but it got to the point where waisting another breath becomes irrelevant... ALL points are made... ALL in plain sight... time for the British authorities to take over (hopefully they did already) and take it from there... it's their job... no more to add...

(at least my) LAST statement on that matter !

[KunMatt]

End of the day getting test results back in 14 hrs from sub standard labs They did say they didnt have DNA tech advanced enough throughout the case yet now its 14hrs np ... this is all done in 4 different pre determined labs, none of which are independent

Not only was it done in record time, in a developing country no less, but that 14 hours also includes the time taken to ship the samples to Bangkok.

Huh?

They were in BKK

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

[KunMatt]

KM there's like hundreds of pages of evidence on thee thread that this guy although he's obviously neither stupid nor crazy is just going to write anything he can think of to bolster his agenda, ignore or try any way he can to discredit anything that does't, and to draw others into arguing with him so he can baffle them with his BS since there's no brilliance, at least in his so-called facts and expertise.

Even though I put him on ignore (makes the thread a LOT shorter and easier to era and I don't seem to be missing any important info doing so) I see others engaging him, which is, to be fair, probably only about 90% of a waste of time. Still, that should be enough of a waste for most people.

Yeah I know. He has an agenda and he is here for a reason. Even he isn't ignorant enough to believe the things he is saying. I hope the truth does prevail and jdinasia is ashamed of himself for this.

[englishoak]

Why don't the British authorities get a DNA sample from the parents of the two suspects --no need to involve the RTP I am surprised that the British media haven't done it themselves seeing the interest in the UK

The British media have been very quiet no interviews with friends who were there at the time, also Sean gave an interview with the Mail on Sunday this as not been published yet! I get the feeling they have been told to hold off because they know more than us, I expect a big explosion with in the British media once the truth is allowed to be told.

There would be absolutely no reason to withhold interviews and statements in the UK after all the people are home. In fact, it would not be legal to not allow statements to the press.

This is a glaring hole in the conspiracy theories.

Most country's police find it is counter productive to discuss on-going investigations. Thailand this doesn't apply, because there is no such thing, but I am sure that UK will have plenty of statements after the inquest is complete.

Didn't read the posts you were responding to, did you?

But why is the press so quiet in UK ? All they report on his what the Thai government say. I just find it strange.

The UKP would not discuss a case like this with its press until the very end, it wouldnt compromise its investigation and it would only say something if 100% certain or it became a necessary evil to solve a case if light on information...

It does not include keeping the public informed of details in an investigation as it destroys any fair trial at a later date.

The UKP and FO has standards and it not lower them for Thailand the press or social media, thank goodness.

Expect nothing news wise from the British Police until A the case is solved and over or B the inquest date arrives.... whichever is sooner, probably the latter.

[CapFarmer]

End of the day getting test results back in 14 hrs from sub standard labs They did say they didnt have DNA tech advanced enough throughout the case yet now its 14hrs np ... this is all done in 4 different pre determined labs, none of which are independent

Not only was it done in record time, in a developing country no less, but that 14 hours also includes the time taken to ship the samples to Bangkok.

Huh?

They were in BKK

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

[KunMatt]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

[gemguy]

For those of us that have lived in Thailand for a long time there often is good reason to doubt any Thai police murder investigation.

Every case that I have ever followed it becomes apparent that all or most of the Police involved simply want to finish the case as quickly as possible while we all know that all too often someone or some people are the fall guys for someone else's heinous crime.

OK...so now they are satisfied that the 2 family member suspects are not the ones that committed the murders....but are they some how involved in what happened and legally accountable as accessories or accomplices to murder.

If they perjure themselves in a court of law will they or would they be held accountable, if it is proven they were accessories or accomplices in the murder of 2 people.

A case like this is never cut and dried ..so lets move on now is not good enough....but here in Thailand it seems that is how the police want to handle it...even if the wrong people or wrong person takes the blame while the police officers know it is a sham.

I have never heard of a Thai police officer or officers later on coming clean and telling the truth about what they know happened all those many years ago and point the finger at the real perpetrators of the crime.

It may happen or may of happened that I am not aware of...but I feel certain any Thai police officer knowing the truth would never come clean and expose the truth...while it is thought better to leave what happened in the past best left alone.

Cheers

Edited November 1, 2014 by gemguy

[Gweiloman]

No 9 has a very familiar walk not sure where i have seen it but it may be related to this case.

Does anyone find it strange that the (Thai) "police" have not made an attempt to determine the identity of No. 9? I would have thought that it's Investigation 101 to speak to anyone that has been in contact with the victims, no matter how seemingly insignificant. The fact that it is clearly seen on CCTV footage should be sufficient for any "genuine", "sincere" and "professional" investigator to want to ask a few questions.

I would wager everything thing that I own and possess that No. 9 is not either of the B2 for obvious reasons (one's a bar worker IIRC and I can't remember the occupation of the other but it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that David would know them sufficiently well enough or be close enough to them to shake their hands when passing each other on the streets).

[PaPiPuPePo]

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

Edited November 1, 2014 by PaPiPuPePo

[DarloKnight]

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

I really do not care what jd thinks of me, since commenting on here I have been threatened with rape and called awful names. We are all are entitled to and an opinion and I can admit when I am wrong.

I just want the truth like everyone else, I have a daughter and would be pushing everyone's buttons to find the truth.

[MJP]

Had to remove a post about "paid to post". It's policy to remove these, regardless of the topic/poster etc.

[cocopops]

ThaiPBS has a video up of an interview with the purported owner of the infamous Spacebook page.

Wish my Thai was a little better just now .... here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzvhLPfrJ6A

The voice modulator the dude is using to protect his identity makes things utterly incomprehensible for me...

[jdinasia]

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

LOL..

Note that he resorts to personal attacks and most importantly note his conclusion.

[englishoak]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

The thing with DNA testing and time isnt really about transport or even manpower, the question here is with the process and technology ... how long it takes to complete fully and properly and conditions its run under.

Im not at all certain if a DNA test and matching can be done in 14 hrs even as a process, especially with the standard that Thailand has.... I do not believe that Thailands DNA test tech is superior to that of the UK or US, especially after they have claimed they dont have any of any quality standard....yet now they have at least 4 ? lol okdok

I know the forensic professionals estimate of the UK/US is between 48 - 72 hrs as a norm. I can even accept it may come down to less according to manpower workload and priority but down to 14 hrs ?. id like someone with industry knowledge of DNA testing to comment on that,

Edited November 1, 2014 by englishoak

[culicine]

While Nomsod has tested negative, I'm of the opinion he knows who was involved. Just after the crime, the police were in hot pursuit of 'suspects' who had escaped to Bangkok. This was Nomsod and co. Were they recognised on CCTV. Why would the police be of the belief that he was indeed on the island, then only to have all these allegations retracted once the headman got involved? I wonder how the police are rewording all of this in their reports. Oh 'we were mistaken'. That's not convincing for anyone, let along a judge. I would expect all lines of inquiry would have been mentioned in those reports to the prosecutor, not just evidence against the accused.

[elektrified]

I find it odd that considering the British homicide detectives just happen to be in town, that they weren't invited to observe or participate in this DNA testing. Considering they have the DNA from the victims I would think it would have been important to have them involved and testing too. What a farce this whole investigation is.

[PaPiPuPePo]

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

I really do not care what jd thinks of me, since commenting on here I have been threatened with rape and called awful names. We are all are entitled to and an opinion and I can admit when I am wrong.

I just want the truth like everyone else, I have a daughter and would be pushing everyone's buttons to find the truth.

Please re-read the last sentence. Debate only leads to greater understanding when both sides are committed to discovering and putting together useful information without ignoring or dismissing any such, and both sides don't intentionally cloud the issue, discredit the other side's view without presenting evidence but rather through name-calling (your view=conspiracy) and so on. The details in this case are obvious as is the disingenuousness of what this person you're engaging has written hundreds of times about this case, at this point.

So you're response to me isn't actually sensical because not all opinions are equally valid even by intent. If you disagree with these comments I'm making re this person, show me I'm wrong; I see (or saw before I ignored him) dozens of full pages of evidence.

He is smart in this way: he knows that if he keeps up the verbiage, and baffles enough people, folks like me who are calling him on his BS will eventually give up under the weight of it.

[StealthEnergiser]

http://www.dvb.no/news/re-enactment-was-orchestrated-by-police-say-koh-tao-suspects-burma-myanmar/45550

Re-enactment was orchestrated by police, say Koh Tao suspects

Edited November 1, 2014 by StealthEnergiser

[primary tiff]

You do need balance to threads, and I think JD is doing his best to "keep it real". people are popping into threads weeks late and mention something they have just learned, this then perpetuates amongst "hang em high" posters and something so blatantly false is construed to be true and if you try to correct them, you are then labelled by the main protagonists. I am sure everyone wants the same thing and that is the people responsible to be punished for this horrific crime.

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

[Mooner]

Darlo,

It is strange. A glaring hole in the conspiracy theorists basis for existing.

Part of the problem would be finding anyone who actually had something to contribute. Anyone that saw a fight etc.

I will admit you are right, I suppose no one is ever going to know the truth at this rate.

I personally would take issue with this guy and another well-known and oft-ignored commenter referring to the vast majority disagreeing with his own spit-and-toilet-paper theories "conspiracy theorists." Using such derogatory phrases to refer to people you disagree with discredits your own views. His have been roundly, thoroughly (if not completely) discredited already, though he appears to spend 20 hours a day mostly trying to confuse the issue.

You'll notice I'm not making absolutist statements about his views like he does with others. That's called thinking like an adult ha ha. I've personally put this guy on ignore due the very high noise-to-signal ratio in his posts. But he keeps popping up where others (mostly foolishly imo) engage him.

Trust me, your sincerity in doing so is not being appreciated or reciprocated.

LOL..

Note that he resorts to personal attacks and most importantly note his conclusion.

Similar to when you were mocking posters for claiming that getting from Ko Tao to Samui in 3 hrs wasn't possible?

You seemed to go a little quiet for a while. Nice to see you chirping up again!

[Gweiloman]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

Could be that the samples went by motorbike taxi, it's faster than by car.

[CapFarmer]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

The thing with DNA testing and time isnt really about transport or even manpower, the question here is with the process and technology ... how long it takes to complete fully and properly and conditions its run under.

Im not at all certain if a DNA test and matching can be done in 14 hrs even as a process, especially with the standard that Thailand has.... I do not believe that Thailands DNA test tech is superior to that of the UK or US, especially after they have claimed they dont have any of any quality standard....yet now they have at least 4 ? lol okdok

I know the forensic professionals estimate of the UK/US is between 48 - 72 hrs as a norm. I can even accept it may come down to less according to manpower workload and priority but down to 14 hrs ?. id like someone with industry knowledge of DNA testing to comment on that,

Thailand has no labs that are certified at any international standards to conduct criminal DNA testing.

[Bleacher Bum East]

I think that one of the things that Hannah and David's families via the British government, people in the media, on social media and all of the Thai people can legitimately request is that the investigation include some basic things that any fair and thorough investigation would include, so everyone in the public can be confident that justice has been served and the killers are caught and unable to do this again.

In my opinion, Touch DNA is the single most important item that should have been investigated which the public has been given no information about to date (Not that they should have been given this information, just that they haven't been).

All the talk has been of DNA from semen on/in Hannah’s body and saliva on a cigarette butt. But it is highly likely, in fact almost certain, that there is Touch DNA on Hannah’s clothing and possibly David’s, as well as on the handle of the hoe, on the cell phone, etc., and that there was Touch DNA on Hannah’s body and possibly David’s as well.

If Touch DNA gathering and testing has not been done already, it still could be (on the clothes and murder weapon at least). And if the Thai forensics lab does not have the latest technology and capability, I think there are a few guys in town right now that do.

For all we know, a through and professional Touch DNA investigation has already been conducted. But if it hasn't been done, any objective observer would say it should be. And the prosecutor should request it to be done as well.

There is a video of them running a cotton bud over the handle of the hoe whilst on the beach not sure if they got any reults from that.

at 1.14

SE:

They could have gotten results from those swabs, but if they did they haven't announced it publicly (again no requirement they do so).

From what I've read it is highly likely that Touch DNA would have been on the hoe as well as Hannah's clothing and body, as well as David's body if he was dragged into the sea. So there should be some results somewhere showing the DNA of who grabbed the hoe, touched Hannah's clothing, held her down to subdue and rape her, dragged David to the sea, took the phone, etc.

The bodies, clothing, hoe, phone etc. did not need to be tested on the island, they could have been sealed and transported to the forensic lab for extensive testing.

DNA from the clothing would have been lifted with tape or by using a scraping method, and from hard surfaces using swabs or the kind of technology described here:

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/techknow/blog/2014/2/18/better-than-csi-hightechdnavacuumcrackscoldcase.html

I know I saw a video of this at some point, but can't seem to find it.

http://www.dnaforensics.com/touchdna.aspx

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/SimplifiedGuideDNA.pdf

Edited November 1, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[CapFarmer]

While Nomsod has tested negative, I'm of the opinion he knows who was involved. Just after the crime, the police were in hot pursuit of 'suspects' who had escaped to Bangkok. This was Nomsod and co. Were they recognised on CCTV. Why would the police be of the belief that he was indeed on the island, then only to have all these allegations retracted once the headman got involved? I wonder how the police are rewording all of this in their reports. Oh 'we were mistaken'. That's not convincing for anyone, let along a judge. I would expect all lines of inquiry would have been mentioned in those reports to the prosecutor, not just evidence against the accused.

Nomsod's DNA was tested for what and negative for what? The test was not a part of the police investigation, it is not going to be introduced as evidence of anything, it was paid for by Nomsod's father to be tested against DNA that was also provided by Nomsod's father and the results were delivered to Nomsod's father. Nomsod's father declared that there was no match and it was echoed by police. Is anyone convinced of the validity of the test.

Not that it makes a difference really, as there is no physical evidence that was not contaminated by two days of being left at an unsecured crime scene on the island while waiting for a forensics investigator to arrive.

[Gweiloman]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

The thing with DNA testing and time isnt really about transport or even manpower, the question here is with the process and technology ... how long it takes to complete fully and properly and conditions its run under.

Im not at all certain if a DNA test and matching can be done in 14 hrs even as a process, especially with the standard that Thailand has.... I do not believe that Thailands DNA test tech is superior to that of the UK or US, especially after they have claimed they dont have any of any quality standard....yet now they have at least 4 ? lol okdok

I know the forensic professionals estimate of the UK/US is between 48 - 72 hrs as a norm. I can even accept it may come down to less according to manpower workload and priority but down to 14 hrs ?. id like someone with industry knowledge of DNA testing to comment on that,

Thailand has no labs that are certified at any international standards to conduct criminal DNA testing.

Source?

Huh???

Yeay, just added to my post count. Will make another post after this.

[darren84310]

What about doing some actual police-work??

Since the dear innocent boy here is a gang-leader, what about testing his gang!!

Or are they included in the "amnesty" as well??

I think that one is assuming that the DNA they would be testing it against is actually the DNA taken from this poor girl's body.

[CapFarmer]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

The thing with DNA testing and time isnt really about transport or even manpower, the question here is with the process and technology ... how long it takes to complete fully and properly and conditions its run under.

Im not at all certain if a DNA test and matching can be done in 14 hrs even as a process, especially with the standard that Thailand has.... I do not believe that Thailands DNA test tech is superior to that of the UK or US, especially after they have claimed they dont have any of any quality standard....yet now they have at least 4 ? lol okdok

I know the forensic professionals estimate of the UK/US is between 48 - 72 hrs as a norm. I can even accept it may come down to less according to manpower workload and priority but down to 14 hrs ?. id like someone with industry knowledge of DNA testing to comment on that,

Thailand has no labs that are certified at any international standards to conduct criminal DNA testing.

Source?

Statements made by the RTP for one.

[Gweiloman]

The swabs were done in the hospital were they, or in a lab, or were they done in a police station at a press conference??

The paternity tests were conducted in BKK.

Yes, and it took time to ship the samples to the 4 hospitals around BKK, all of this impacted the record testing time.

The thing with DNA testing and time isnt really about transport or even manpower, the question here is with the process and technology ... how long it takes to complete fully and properly and conditions its run under.

Im not at all certain if a DNA test and matching can be done in 14 hrs even as a process, especially with the standard that Thailand has.... I do not believe that Thailands DNA test tech is superior to that of the UK or US, especially after they have claimed they dont have any of any quality standard....yet now they have at least 4 ? lol okdok

I know the forensic professionals estimate of the UK/US is between 48 - 72 hrs as a norm. I can even accept it may come down to less according to manpower workload and priority but down to 14 hrs ?. id like someone with industry knowledge of DNA testing to comment on that,

Thailand has no labs that are certified at any international standards to conduct criminal DNA testing.

Source?

He does not need to produce a source.

For eg, I can say that the world is flat. If you wish to disprove me, then YOU are the one that needs to provide evidence and your source of evidence. Get it?