Israel: 'Hamas plot to kill FM Lieberman foiled'

[Seastallion]

Contrary to JingThing saying that the State of Palestine is fictional.

It is not only real, it is recognized by the UN as well as the majority of nations in the world.

He disingenuously ignores the fact that the occupation of Palestine has kept the country from developing.

And again, it is not exactly clear on which level you mean that Palestine already exists as a state.

If international recognition is the only criteria, possibly, but even then it still isn't a 100% thing (not until full UN membership,

and until some recognitions become binding motions in respective countries).

Them down to earth practicalities is where this argument stalls.

Blaming it all on Israel is fine, but still does not address current domestic issues plaguing the Palestinians (the Fatah-Hamas

split being foremost). These issues will not simply go away even if Israel was to sign and deliver on a peace treaty tomorrow.

Come now Morch, the pedants aren't denying the existence of a Palestinian state because of the last few legal technicalities, they're denying it's existence because of 1. wishful thinking, and 2. historical geography.

[Ulysses G.]

"Wishful thinking" would fall more into the category of pretending those legal technicalities do not exist.

[Morch]

Contrary to JingThing saying that the State of Palestine is fictional.

It is not only real, it is recognized by the UN as well as the majority of nations in the world.

He disingenuously ignores the fact that the occupation of Palestine has kept the country from developing.

And again, it is not exactly clear on which level you mean that Palestine already exists as a state.

If international recognition is the only criteria, possibly, but even then it still isn't a 100% thing (not until full UN membership,

and until some recognitions become binding motions in respective countries).

Them down to earth practicalities is where this argument stalls.

Blaming it all on Israel is fine, but still does not address current domestic issues plaguing the Palestinians (the Fatah-Hamas

split being foremost). These issues will not simply go away even if Israel was to sign and deliver on a peace treaty tomorrow.

Come now Morch, the pedants aren't denying the existence of a Palestinian state because of the last few legal technicalities, they're denying it's existence because of 1. wishful thinking, and 2. historical geography.

I would say denial based on wishful thinking is in evidence on both sides here.

Not quite sure what "historical geography" was about.

[Ulysses G.]

I think he means that there has never been an independent Arab country called Palestine and he got that right

[Morch]

European nations are threatening (and some have) recognized the fictional Palestinian state.

In doing so, they are recognizing Hamas (a powerful force with genocidal intensions against Jews) as well as Fatah (not as bad but still deep down "River to the sea' folks whether people admit it or not).

This is a known and BIG political problem with moving the peace process forward.

It doesn't matter that in reality Fatah and Hamas are fighting and even killing each other in this context.

Much of the "world" is indeed going ahead with this fiction that there is a Palestine to recognize and they can act like they can only deal with Abbas as if he represents ALL of Palestine, which of course he doesn't.

Right now, there isn't this real Palestine.

Happily for the reality based, the very important nations of the USA and Germany are not on board with this "recognition" of a fiction.

Basically, yes. Everyone is more comfortable with shelving the Fatah-Hamas issue, and Abbas is playing this card to the max. Not that he got many options, though, as far as political survival goes. Interesting to see if he can actually ride it out or shake the fallout it it goes south.

As for the clip - Netanyahu's government did, in fact, carry negotiations with Hamas on more than one occasion (albeit indirectly).

[Jingthing]

Speaking of Hamas ... wouldn't it be great if Hamas was gone? Then maybe Abbas or someone like him really COULD be in a position to negotiate in the name of both West Bank and Gaza.

OK, this sounds radical ... but isn't the status quo of just waiting for Hamas to rearm also kind of radical?

As usual in the middle east, a bunch of bad choices.

In Mosab Yousef’s view, “the policy of having a ceasefire with Hamas” since the summer’s war, and in previous lulls between conflict, “is fundamentally wrong. These ceasefires only enable Hamas to rebuild its strength, politically and militarily,” he noted.

Israel needs to “reevaluate its approach,” he said. “Hamas is not an organization with political imperatives, acting out of political interests. It is first and foremost an ideological movement, and there can be no negotiating or compromising with it. It cannot be appeased through diplomatic compromise. Israel’s leaders have found what they wrongly consider to be a magical solution through temporary ceasefires to what is actually a strategic problem — facing a foul and highly dangerous terror organization. The Israeli government needs to acknowledge its mistake and change its strategy. Negotiating with Hamas — via a third party, openly or covertly, with or without mediators — is a mistake. You are just strengthening Hamas and its strategy.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/destroy-hamas-in-gaza-now-urges-the-green-prince/