Limes in concrete rings.

[zlodnick]

For years Ive seen shows on Thai television about growing lime trees in concrete rings. Sounds good to me except that they say you should put the rings on a concrete pad or pour a concrete floor inside the ring. Common sense is telling me this cant work. The water will have nowhere to go and it will saturate the roots. Also, the roots would get rootbound.

Well, it seems to work, Ive seen some beautiful trees with lots of fruit. Nonetheless, I couldnt get myself to do it so, I used the rings but just placed them on the ground. Its been a few years and the trees are growing very slowly. They are constantly flowering and producing good size fruit, but not much. Each tree has maybe 4 or 5 fruit at any one time.

I would like to know if anyone has had any experience growing limes or has some helpful comments?

[BAYBOY]

As I understand it................. the rings do not have the concrete pad underneath.The reason for the ring is that the tree base is a couple of feet above the ground and so then it is easy to weed and care for.

Also that there new varieties of lime available these days and they are great producers of fruit and so easy to prune/pick if the tree is shorter.Wife's cousin has over 500 trees on 4 rai and adding more daily.

BAYBOY

[thaipod]

From What I understand they put them in concrete rings to raise them above ground level as the roots don't like too much water and will fruit better.

Edited November 28, 2014 by thaipod

[slapout]

Neighbor has about 10 rai of limes, when he prepared the old rice paddy for planting he ridged up (About 1 meter) his planting bed for his trees. His drainage /slope 0f land carried over from paddy so he never has problem with water logging of root system. He used ba drip system for dry season watering and has been quite successful with this method

[Jaidii]

Asked my wife, who's just started growing a dozen or so limes ('lemons') by this method, why the bases? She said to contain the roots and also have chemical (?) to control growth so they fruit out of season. She said 'lemons' sell for 1 baht in season and expensive 4 to 5 baht out of the normal season.

[zlodnick]

Jaidii,

I can understand this method would contain the roots. (Usually, roots of plants shouldnt be contained, its called rootbound), but the roots must get waterlogged with no way for the water to drain out.

[nev]

Jaidii,

I can understand this method would contain the roots. (Usually, roots of plants shouldnt be contained, its called rootbound), but the roots must get waterlogged with no way for the water to drain out.

we have about 60 trees in the rings on concrete bases, the water can get out from the small gap between ring and base, another reason for the base is to stop termites, I keep it clear a weed free around the rings I can spray and keep a eye out for the little critters.

[EmptyHead]

How far apart should the concrete bases be? We are thinking of doing a few limes trees like this and would how many i can fit in one space in the garden.

Thanks

[weegee]

This must be catching....i am at present looking at the concrete ringed, Lime trees also..

Enjoying the comments...thanks.

weegee

[kickstart]

Another reason for growing limes in concrete rings, this come from a Thai friend, at about mid December cover the top of the concrete rings with plastic sheet ,for 3 weeks, the soil will dry out,leaves will fall off, remove plastic sheet, then feed and water the trees and they will produce new leaves and fruit ,in about April time ,as has been said ,when limes are dear,a good way to force on limes,and maybe make a bit of money,

If this is done right, round here we will have a lot of limes in April,a lot of people are growing limes in concrete rings .

[wolfmanjack]

How far apart should the concrete bases be? We are thinking of doing a few limes trees like this and would how many i can fit in one space in the garden.

Thanks

the book i bought for this says 3 meter centers between plants and 6 meter center between rows.

It also shows the concrete base with the ring set on it and I was wondering the same thing as the OP about water logged and bound roots. Especially during the rainy season.

[jonnyscot]

We have had 4 limes in bottomless rings in our garden area for about 2 years, when we purchased them each had one or two fruit on them, since then nothing, I see one of them is flowering now though, but we've just about finished walling in our garden area and I had planned to relocate them to another part of the garden,,, any issues re relocating at this time ? Also would it be best to give morning/afternoon shade or full sun? I think I will try this time putting a base on the ring though.

[slappy]

Hi all

just slightly off topic, but still to do with lime trees.

I have 8 lime trees and just planted into the ground, no concrete rings, I water every 3/4 days and keep getting new shoots growing. which is good! but my problem is as soon as the new shoots are growing, I have something eating the new growth.

The other day I watered when it was dark, and when I started watering the trees, my head torch and head got attached!! by loads of tiny insects which came off the lime trees. So I am guess these are the critters that are eating my new growth.

How can I get rid / kill these critters?

Can someone recommend what I can buy to solve the issue?

Many thanks

slappy

[djayz]

We have had 4 limes in bottomless rings in our garden area for about 2 years, when we purchased them each had one or two fruit on them, since then nothing, I see one of them is flowering now though, but we've just about finished walling in our garden area and I had planned to relocate them to another part of the garden,,, any issues re relocating at this time ? Also would it be best to give morning/afternoon shade or full sun? I think I will try this time putting a base on the ring though.

I am by no means an expert on limes, but every lime tree I've seen so far (plus the half dozen I have) are all out in the full sun. I assume that this is okay/what they prefer.

[BSJ]

The wife and I have been setting up rings and bases for 2 months a day here a day there but we haven't finished yet. The people supplying the base & rings are slack but their well known to the wifes family so despite me pushing her to lay down the law, she won't! An now the tree supplier says he can't supply us!

But the reason for base & rings is that a lot of water can flow through the block in heavy rain and it won't effect the trees in the rings.

Plus it's easier to do weeding, we can drip irrigate and new varieties of Lime tree flourish in the rings.

Our spacing is first ring 1M from Aunties fence line, 2nd 3.8M centre to centre with 1st, 2nd to 3rd 3M, 3rd to 4th 3.8M, 4th to 5th 3M and the last 1.5M but staggered as they go down the block. As the rows go down the block it's 3M spacing except between row and 8 it's 3.8M and row 6 starting in 2M . We are looking at 100 rings plus space for a small shed and hard stand for 2 tanks.

The wife designed the layout. My layout had 117 rings!

[jonnyscot]

Nice pic there, is that mango trees I see at the back of the land?, our limes were only for personal use, just a few in the walled area pity not much fruit yet, outside the walled area we have bamboo at the front with the big type banana fruit along the borders, some bamboo also at the rear, but thinking of putting in some peppers at the rear of the land also where there's a couple rai unused

[BSJ]

Nice pic there, is that mango trees I see at the back of the land?, our limes were only for personal use, just a few in the walled area pity not much fruit yet, outside the walled area we have bamboo at the front with the big type banana fruit along the borders, some bamboo also at the rear, but thinking of putting in some peppers at the rear of the land also where there's a couple rai unused

Hi there, the mango trees are Aunty Na's trees, the wifes aunty who has the block next door as well. This 1 rai block was a gift from granny for us to build a house on but the wife has a house in the village and her mum and dad live next door, and are getting older, so we decided we would live in the old house but build a new kitchen and renovate the bedroom. Tik's brother lives on the other side and every second house in the lane is some member of the family! It's not bad were we live, quite good in fact!

I think just about every farmer in the village has at least a few rai of mango trees. Tik has an mango orchard but I said to her it's time to diversify which she thought was a smart move.

There are more mango trees going in all around the district and my argument was the price can/will be affected in the coming years if there's an over supply.

" thinking of putting in some pepper " You meant Thai chilli pepper? I imported some bell peppers from the USA to see if they grow OK here. We will know in a few months! I am thinking organically grown bell peppers for processing on a broad scale sold with our label on the packaging along with limes, mangoes and maybe corn. We are going organic with the mangos as much as possible this year, Limes when we get going....corn not sure about that one!

So many things one can do here it is hard to narrow down the list!

[The Deerhunter]

We have nearly 100 in rings with bases and plan more. Limes will work just planted in the ground but to get maximum (economic) cropping it is necessary to contain them and to also contain (and not waste) the intensive feeding with cow & Chicken manure etc that is needed if they are heavily cropping. The logic is a bit like battery hens but without animal cruelty. Otherwise you do not get economic returns. That is why the rings. Lots of stuff on Youtube in Thai. Yes they need holes or the trees can get wet feet & die. We usually plaster in 4 pieces of 1.5" to 2" bamboo on 4 sides then pull them out to re-use as we move on to plaster the next one. Some we did with no holes were dying and we had to go round with a steel rod & a club hammer to knock holes down the insides of the ring to let water out. Rings are best at 80cm to 1 metre and one or two rings high. 60cm seems much too small. We use 80cm & one high as it is a lot of work but the greater volume the longer the trees are meant to last before becoming root bound & need pulling out and starting again from scratch with new trees. We understand we should get about 8-12 years of intensive cropping. Most rings have 4 little holes on all sides, about 1/2 way up, visible in BSJ's picture. It seems from our experience that if you see water constantly trickling out of these holes you need to prevent wet feet by knocking more holes. Hope this helps. We are still learning but go with the advice of people with lots of trees in their at least 2nd or third year. By then they know what works.

[rice555]

Hello All, limes growing has become very popular in the past few years, at Klang Plaza

downtown Korat where I usual get my mag's, they had 7 different ones on limes, along

with the bug, papaya, dates and frog how-to mags, here's two.

The wife and I walked up the soi to order some jugs of water and a new tank of gas saw

that the water guy also is starting to do limes.

rice555

[The Deerhunter]

Hello All, limes growing has become very popular in the past few years, at Klang Plaza

downtown Korat where I usual get my mag's, they had 7 different ones on limes, along

with the bug, papaya, dates and frog how-to mags, here's two.

The wife and I walked up the soi to order some jugs of water and a new tank of gas saw

that the water guy also is starting to do limes.

rice555

Yes it does make one wonder if limes will be the next rice - rubber - palm oil etc bubble to burst. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!

[djayz]

Out of curiosity, what grow media is recommended for lime trees? A Thai neighbour has about 1 rai of lime trees in rings (with bases) and I can see coconut husks/shells sticking up out of the pots. I don't know the owner so I didn't feel it was right to walk in on his land to take a closer look. I drive by every morning in the hope of seeing him there, but no luck yet. I assume he has mixed in the coconut husks with soil. Any tips on grow media?

[BSJ]

Well, it's no secret that there will be an over supply of Limes sometime in the future just as there is going to be an over supply of mangos. I am not to worried about it as I had planned on value adding further down the track. We will be looking at processing fruit or making juice....or both and the less distance we have to pay to get it to our processing centre the better. We will be looking at export markets before we outlay the bucks. A small operator needs to look for the niche markets. But like I said, that's down the track away!

Dragon fruit are another product we are interested in...but not this year.

[ThaiLife]

Currently we are growing asparagus and my wife has just inherited a plot of land ( about one rai ) which has water nearby .

As we are busy growing asparagus , we are now looking for a crop to grow on this new plot of land that will not require constant daily attention like the asparagus does , a crop that takes time to establish and start producing a return is no problem and Limes seem to fit the bill.

We would be looking at planting the crop over the whole area of the new plot of land .

So I wold love to know how other posters here / any one else , have been doing with their Lime planting , any updates or comments would be appreciated.

TL

[Swamp Thing]

Asked my wife, who's just started growing a dozen or so limes ('lemons') by this method, why the bases? She said to contain the roots and also have chemical (?) to control growth so they fruit out of season. She said 'lemons' sell for 1 baht in season and expensive 4 to 5 baht out of the normal season.

Both wifey and I now use the word manau, to avoid confusion.

As the old song goes;

'You say lemon, I say lime.

Let's call the whole thing off...'

(Or something like that).

[drtreelove]

As you see from the many interesting replies, there are advantages and disadvantages of growing lime trees in concrete planters. Whether it is better or not depends on your site, money for investment, soil and resources to manage it all. It makes some aspects of soil, water and weed management easier, but necessitates more initial expense and more intense management in some respects.

If you grow in rings you have the initial expense of the rings and soil to go in them. BTW, someone asked about soil. You will have to acquire and blend your own for best media. A sandy loam with 5-10% organic matter content, with adequate and balanced minerals, based on soil test and prescription amendments is best. Random soil selection and guess work on amendments only goes so far. Good drainage is essential and one good things about the rings is it makes measuring soil moisture with a meter more accessible. I have a three foot moisture meter probe that I use for potted plant water timing assessment, it's harder to use in compacted clay soil situations where the probe cannot penetrate as easily.

The rings need drainage, gaps or holes. Citrus are very susceptible to root rot, usually from a fungus-like pathogen called a water mold (Phytophthora cinnamomi) that proliferates with sustained excess soil moisture . Water management is important, letting the soil dry out somewhat between irrigation cycles is best for citrus and prevention of root-crown rot. My father managed citrus groves while I was growing up, and I remember they watered with about 8-10 inches of flood irrigation every 10 days during hot season. But the canopies were allowed to grow to the ground for shading of soil surface and maximum foliar surface for production, leaf litter remained for natural mulch and OM content building. So this allow better soil moisture retention and nutrient recycling.

With rings you are at a disadvantage in some respects. In my mind the most serious negative, is that the absorbing root system cannot expand throughout the available soil volume that would exist with an in-the-ground planting. So that means you have more intensive and expensive management to get the water and nutrients needed for successful plant health. And your years of production will be limited as the tree root systems fill the pots and exhaust the limited soil nutrient resources. The trees and production may do well at first and it is very satisfying, but then the limitations set in and you can't figure out why the trees and production are declining. The larger the soil volume available for a tree's absorbing root system, the better. There will be more soil moisture and mineral resources to draw from, if you have assessed and can manage all the factors.

But putting the trees in the ground, without pots, requires a very intelligent assessment of site conditions like soil quality and drainage, and how you are going to manage soil, water, fertility and weeding issues. Raised mound (above the soil grade) planting is advisable with root and crown rot susceptible trees like citrus and avocado.

If you have money to burn for investment on pots, soil and chemical fertilizers, and you don't expect to pass on your orchard to your descendants, then put them in pots. You may get two to five years before decline sets in.

If you are in it for the long haul and you have the right land and water resources, then plant your trees in the ground, you will have more productive years from your trees if managed well. But I would suggest that you become well informed on plant health care, soil and water management, and have a good farm manager and crew if you are not doing it yourself.

[BSJ]

I posted the other day on the other thread regarding the wife's lime test site. We got the irrigation guy in to help. The pixs tell the story!

[Gary A]

The concrete ring thing has apparently spread like wild fire. My wife has many different fruit trees, I'd guess more than fifty total. A month or so ago I see two concrete rings behind the house. Then I see her filling the rings with her special dirt. Now she has a lime tree planted in both rings. She has puk chee planted around the lime tree saplings. I asked her the reason to plant a tree in a ring that will eventually become root bound. She really didn't know but said they are easy to take care of and someone told her that was the best way to grow limes.

[BSJ]

Well the watering system has a few bugs for me to sort out and it turns out the pressure from the 2 tanks is enough to get the water flowing to the trees without the pump! That was another wise investment by self!

Our oldest trees (9 months) are flowering and fruiting.

[JungleBiker]

To the best of my knowledge, learned from someone more knowledgeable than me.. the primary reason for growing in the concrete rings is related to what Kickstart said in post #10. If the roots are not allowed to get moisture from above (irrgation or rain) or below (from the soil), the roots can be dried out sufficiently to induce a flush of flowers out of season (by allowing the soil to dry out and then irrigating). As Dr TreeLove said, you will need drainage in the rings (the drainage holes could be in the sides near to the base) to allow water out or the plants may be killed by waterlogging. You also need to separate the soil in the ring from the soil below. That might be done by plastic sheeting or concrete.

[rice555]

Hello All, I ran across this article on a way to train lime trees,

I've seen something like this in fig growing in LOS.

Article is in the Mag.

rice555