Koh Tao - Witnesses 'scared to testify' over Brit tourist murders: Thai lawyer

[Lancashireman]

only chance they have if innocent is serious action from UK police/government if they have any consummate evidence to blow it wide open beyond doubt & beyond cover-ups & lies !!

I would like a report from UK regardless of what it supports as it the only way any faith can be bought to this perfect mess ...

Only good thing is Thailand will loose Billions of baht from all the corruption & stupidity that been brought to peoples attention through media, tourists are dwindling, business investors are more cautious & many moving.

Firm I work with are closing shop this year & moving offices to Singapore, quite simply don't want the inconsistent hassle of Thainess any longer. Constant protest/coups that are a farce for the elite factions, mixed with awful policing, messy immigration & incompetent banking have made the decision easy. A quote from my CEO "only 2 things we will miss is 7/11 & our dental clinic" .

If tourism died Thailand would stand to lose a couple of trillion bath a year ... that's sweet FA compared to it's expat community and foreign business community. I actually left Thailand shortly after this farce took hold as I could no longer support a regime that engages in such human rights atrocities.

I've said this before ... it's time the expat community walked out en-mass and showed the Thais that enough is enough. Such would either force the Thai authorities to change - and I mean change right across the board including law and order and their stupid immigration laws. Either that or they can stick to their Thainess and watch their country decline into the abyss of financial collapse.

I for one will refuse to enter Thailand again until measurable changes are made.

The Thais, contrary to belief, do NOT hold the power - the people do ... time for the expat community to show some balls and walk ... maybe change could be effected to benefit everyone .. including the Thai people.

Walking away is weakness...consider why you/I/us/them are/were here in the first place. U-turn if you want to, this expat is not for turning...

[stephen terry]

I hope David Cameron realises how little Thailand's government cares about what he has to say or his crime investigators.

David who??

Cameron, you know the guy whose government steals from state OAPs living in Thailand, and other countries.

Quite right. Frozen pension, no burden on the NHS or any other institution, but still subject to Income Tax. And it's proposed that the IT allowance will be abolished for non-residents.

Back on topic: How long would it take for the defence and judge to wade through the 900 page RTP report?

[JOC]

I would guess it`s because many of the witnesses are staying illegally in Thailand, maybe working without permits and into a multitude of illegal activities, which is why they prefer to keep out of the limelight and have low profiles.

Also those who were not close or associated with the tragic victims will probably be reluctant to become involved as is mostly the case when serious crimes are committed. That means the police are really on their own as for providing evidence. From my experience of farangs here in Thailand and their anti social attitudes, perhaps because they are into activities they prefer to keep behind the scenes or simply just don`t care, it comes as no surprise that they will not come forward and become involved within this investigation.

No corruption involved, it is how I have described above.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool

than to speak out and remove all doubt"

(Abraham Lincoln)

[NoshowJones]

You have to be very careful here, we all have an opinion, and it looks like the Burmese kids are being used as scapegoats, but there is the possibility that they are guilty, no one knows for sure except the kids themselves.

So many of us TV members have got them innocent, but the truth is none of us knows if they are guilty or not. There is no 100% certainty that anybody, in any court, in any country can be sure of a persons guilt or innocence unless they are caught in the act.

There has been lots of occasions in my country (The UK) of innocent people being jailed over the years. There is no perfect system, and it is my opinion that these two Burmese guys are innocent.

[BlackJack]

But they still have disclosure so that the defendants can mount a proper defence

[NoshowJones]

I hope David Cameron realises how little Thailand's government cares about what he has to say or his crime investigators.

Well, at least it's coming from a country which has a fair legal system.

This latest ploy of holding a hearing 3 hours early does not smell at all good.

The UK a fair legal system??????????????????????? A guy murders someone, leaves her to die in the snow, only gets six years in prison, then he is released after only three years. A fair legal system?????????????

[stephen terry]

I am going to predict that the defence lawyers will advise the B2 to plead guilty to the charges to avoid a certain death penalty if they choose to plead not -guilty. The prosecutor will make it quite clear that the outcome is pre-determined - it has to be, because it can be the only satisfactory outcome from Thailand's POV in that the case is concluded with the B2 admitting guilt.

A 900 page report including witness statements, DNA evidence, and items stolen from one victim, will persuade the judge that the charges are beyond reasonable doubt.

The alternative would be to appeal the pre-determined guilty sentences right up to the Supreme court and pray...

Edited December 5, 2014 by stephen terry

[JOC]

You have to be very careful here, we all have an opinion, and it looks like the Burmese kids are being used as scapegoats, but there is the possibility that they are guilty, no one knows for sure except the kids themselves.

So many of us TV members have got them innocent, but the truth is none of us knows if they are guilty or not. There is no 100% certainty that anybody, in any court, in any country can be sure of a persons guilt or innocence unless they are caught in the act.

There has been lots of occasions in my country (The UK) of innocent people being jailed over the years. There is no perfect system, and it is my opinion that these two Burmese guys are innocent.

In the question about guilt or innocence of course you are right!!

But what many poster here are asking for, are transparency and fairness!!

Guess we can all agree on, that the "investigation" has been screwed up from day one.

How come that the first suspects (the Nomsod gang) suddenly disappeared from the limelight with the change of the headinvestigator?? How much money changed hands, to make that happen?

Just like anyone else here, I don't know what happened on that fatal night, but all the cover ups and lies to me indicates something is very wrong!!

My gut feeling is that the B2 are indeed scapegoats, and I hope they walk!!

[Willy Eckerslike]

I would guess it`s because many of the witnesses are staying illegally in Thailand, maybe working without permits and into a multitude of illegal activities, which is why they prefer to keep out of the limelight and have low profiles.

Also those who were not close or associated with the tragic victims will probably be reluctant to become involved as is mostly the case when serious crimes are committed. That means the police are really on their own as for providing evidence. From my experience of farangs here in Thailand and their anti social attitudes, perhaps because they are into activities they prefer to keep behind the scenes or simply just don`t care, it comes as no surprise that they will not come forward and become involved within this investigation.

No corruption involved, it is how I have described above.

[siampolee]

AlecG post # 86.

Just as I expected the calls for vigilante "justice" wouldn't take too long.

You are of course referring to those so well informed and insightful posts made by Beettlejuice in your post ?

[flyingdoc]

How is it that we have heard nothing whatever about the British findings?

[chrisinth]

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Wonder how much money has changed hands to get all the ducks in a row??

Thailand may have improved its corruption-ranking, but as long as you can pay to get away with murder, the country still remains in the cave-age!!

It stinks!!

There's a facebook screen capture of one of the local KT police, he owns a restaurant on Koa Tao to, anyway he for some bizarre reason messaged CSI some time back "think not how many baht this has cost, think in millions"

Rumour has been 120 million.
But since everything has gone pearshaped, maybe that would be more now. Just a rumour mind.

But at the end of the day, even one baht lost is too much to pay for the lives of those that died.

Don't be distracted by someone's facebook whine over money.

[Neeranam]

How is it that we have heard nothing whatever about the British findings?

Diplomacy - ie David Cameron has been promised something in return for staying quiet. Neither PM wants a diplomatic incident over the death of two backpackers.

[Chris Lawrence]

A social media campaign where one could get names of all involved, their Facebook, twitter pages and their friends and just start sending them messages asking how did they come to the conclusions they did, has money passed hands, ask if they are corrupt, why did they bumble along with the investigation, will they act in the same way again? Questions not in a humiliating way but just be straight forward in asking why? Has the investigation been so keystones cop type?

It wouldn't be allowed on this board, and others would have to send TV members personal messages to find out about such a campaign.

It was just a thought I had; I am not that good in getting around other sites.

[Guitar God]

I forget, how long was it between the time they took dna samples from the suspects and when they announced the results?

According to random internet strangers (a US cop), "The process can also be "pushed," if it's urgent enough, as it sometimes is in a serious criminal or medical case, and all the DNA results usually needed for forensic evidence or medical treatment can be obtained within seventy-two hours."

I'm sure someone involved with this investigation has the authority to push these tests to the front of the line at the lab. Paternity test results are back in less than 48 hours, from companies who work on a first in, first out basis.

so many holes in case, let's make a list to remind ourselves...... 1)..DNA match was completed too quickly.... anybody want to add more?

[BoristheBlade]

Maybe insensitive, but the fact remains, two more innocent lives may be lost.

I believe the parents of both victims know the contents of the British Police report.

Time to act and prevent a miscarriage of justice.

David and Hanna are gone, please don't let these bastards take another two lives.

I have said it often and say it again: The silence over this coming from Hannah's and David's parents make me sick! They are the only ones who could turn this case around and make sure that the real murderers are being put to justice.

I have no idea why you have made this insensitive and ridiculously naive and stupid statement.

1. The family are polite, law-abiding people dealing with a grieving process.

2. They will have been advised by the UK govt, UK police, etc. to make no public statements.

3. Thailand has a very strong record of ignoring and becoming stubborn in the face of foreign pressure. What would any statement from the family do here?

4. Later on, after the trial and the inquest, you may hear more from them.

See Kirsty Jones case for comparison.

[hoyism]

Maybe insensitive, but the fact remains, two more innocent lives may be lost.

I believe the parents of both victims know the contents of the British Police report.

Time to act and prevent a miscarriage of justice.

David and Hanna are gone, please don't let these bastards take another two lives.

I have said it often and say it again: The silence over this coming from Hannah's and David's parents make me sick! They are the only ones who could turn this case around and make sure that the real murderers are being put to justice.

I have no idea why you have made this insensitive and ridiculously naive and stupid statement.

1. The family are polite, law-abiding people dealing with a grieving process.

2. They will have been advised by the UK govt, UK police, etc. to make no public statements.

3. Thailand has a very strong record of ignoring and becoming stubborn in the face of foreign pressure. What would any statement from the family do here?

4. Later on, after the trial and the inquest, you may hear more from them.

See Kirsty Jones case for comparison.

last weekend i met a couple who live in KT

they said the victims families have hired private investigators which i'd not heard before

if this is true they are probably biding their time and waiting for the outcome of court case, maybe advised by the UK gvrnmnt

aside from dealing with the grief of losing their children one cannot imagine how they're being affected by the almost daily reports and constant bungling and inappropriate actions and comments by certain organisations/people in power. words can not describe how i would be feeling as a family friend or member

they are waiting as we are, anyone outside of Thailand are powerless to intervene or help the B2, only by sending money to help fund those who are trying to save them

http://www.youcaring.com/nonprofits/justice-koh-tao-murder-case/246839

Edited December 5, 2014 by hoyism

[Jimbolai]

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Well, at least the Burmese have lawyers. That's a big step up from what they had at the 'safe house' : No one.

I wish them as fair a trial as possible, but it's a tough row to hoe, going up against the full arm-locking force of officialdom - all trying their darndest to bust 'em, while concurrently doing all they can to continue to shield those who should be prime suspects.

No way they get a fair trial. Thailand will have a big black mark against it after the trial nwith the worlds media watching.

[ABCer]

I have one only question:

Who are the witnesses for defence afraid of?

If they are also illegal immigrants - why in the interests of Justice are they not offered protection?

Or are their fears going deeper, much deeper?

The naivety of your question boggles the mind.

I was accused of anything this far but naivety.

Just trying to say something without actually saying it. Paying attention to TV warning to members.

Your response does not qualify for an answer to my question. Try again.

[arrowsdawdle]

Some posters are comparing the Justice systems of farang countries with Thailand's. Thailand's justice system is invested in fairness to the extent RTP are invested in fairness. In other words, they've all locked arms to nail the B2 while concurrently shield the Headman's people.

The local courts are to justice as the local drivers are to safety.

[arrowsdawdle]

Maybe insensitive, but the fact remains, two more innocent lives may be lost.

I believe the parents of both victims know the contents of the British Police report.

Time to act and prevent a miscarriage of justice.

David and Hanna are gone, please don't let these bastards take another two lives.

I have said it often and say it again: The silence over this coming from Hannah's and David's parents make me sick! They are the only ones who could turn this case around and make sure that the real murderers are being put to justice.

I have no idea why you have made this insensitive and ridiculously naive and stupid statement.

1. The family are polite, law-abiding people dealing with a grieving process.

2. They will have been advised by the UK govt, UK police, etc. to make no public statements.

3. Thailand has a very strong record of ignoring and becoming stubborn in the face of foreign pressure. What would any statement from the family do here?

4. Later on, after the trial and the inquest, you may hear more from them.

See Kirsty Jones case for comparison.

last weekend i met a couple who live in KT

they said the victims families have hired private investigators which i'd not heard before

if this is true they are probably biding their time and waiting for the outcome of court case, maybe advised by the UK gvrnmnt

aside from dealing with the grief of losing their children one cannot imagine how they're being affected by the almost daily reports and constant bungling and inappropriate actions and comments by certain organisations/people in power. words can not describe how i would be feeling as a family friend or member

they are waiting as we are, anyone outside of Thailand are powerless to intervene or help the B2, only by sending money to help fund those who are trying to save them

http://www.youcaring.com/nonprofits/justice-koh-tao-murder-case/246839

People outside Thailand are not powerless, just disinterested as the flow of tourists to KT indicates. If people boycotted tourism and goods, you'd see something truly rare, local officials actually running in a hurry to set things right and appease the dollar.

[arrowsdawdle]

A social media campaign where one could get names of all involved, their Facebook, twitter pages and their friends and just start sending them messages asking how did they come to the conclusions they did, has money passed hands, ask if they are corrupt, why did they bumble along with the investigation, will they act in the same way again? Questions not in a humiliating way but just be straight forward in asking why? Has the investigation been so keystones cop type?

It wouldn't be allowed on this board, and others would have to send TV members personal messages to find out about such a campaign.

It was just a thought I had; I am not that good in getting around other sites.

Straightforward is humiliating in a culture where straightforward is not spoken.....and illegal.

[Krenjai]

I am going to predict that the defence lawyers will advise the B2 to plead guilty to the charges to avoid a certain death penalty if they choose to plead not -guilty. The prosecutor will make it quite clear that the outcome is pre-determined - it has to be, because it can be the only satisfactory outcome from Thailand's POV in that the case is concluded with the B2 admitting guilt.

A 900 page report including witness statements, DNA evidence, and items stolen from one victim, will persuade the judge that the charges are beyond reasonable doubt.

The alternative would be to appeal the pre-determined guilty sentences right up to the Supreme court and pray...

I am afraid you are right.......they will be found guilty, they have no choice. Anything else like acquittal, throwing out the case, a not guilty verdict will be loss of face for the RTP. Nobody can change this and nobody can do anything about this.

Scary stuff!

Edited December 5, 2014 by Krenjai

[Equalizer]

The Brits never did anything about the Kirsty Jones murder. So i do not expect any change in policy.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

There have been some developments.

[Krenjai]

People outside Thailand are not powerless, just disinterested as the flow of tourists to KT indicates. If people boycotted tourism and goods, you'd see something truly rare, local officials actually running in a hurry to set things right and appease the dollar.

I am afraid people outside Thailand are powerless and people will not boycott Thailand. In fact the only people who seem to follow this case are of course the Thais, the expats living in Thailand and abroad and the people with some sort of connection to Thailand. The main stream public has no clue and they will go on Holiday as before. KT maybe needs some time to recover, but yesterday I spoke to somebody who just booked a holiday to the Samui archipelago and told him about the KT murders...........he had no clue!

That is the sad truth, and in a few years nobody will hardly talk about this case anymore. Things will go back to "normal" in KT for Cool & The Gang!

Nobody can save the B2, not Scotland Yard, not you, not me.

One can only hope for a miracle now!

[DaveE13]

This is very promising news

[tingtongtourist]

<deleted> this, time for the British to make a stand

Publish that report in the morning and destroy these evil bastards.

And as for certain people on Koh Tao...Live by the sword....die by the sword

Just as a matter of interest, I wonder if this case will take a turn for the good if "something is to happen" to the real culprit on Koh Tao ?

" Yeah <deleted>%k this, no need to husha dee hush about it or approach this fact with care as the whole world knows what is going on here and these bastards should still be exposed and all their business interest boy coted against - their wealth and income should be crippled permanently "

Obviously the flow of money will be stopped as there will really be no more reason to keep the "sniffer dogs" off the trail of the guilty should something happen to the poor bastard " suicide or unexplainable death "

Just a thought... as a realists.

Just as I expected the calls for vigilante "justice" wouldn't take too long.

haha i can laugh. Thai visa Vigilante justice brigade. We can call T.V.V.J.B

what are they gonna do these ex SAS? Beat these wicked purps with their walking sticks?

yeah sure..I'll put my yeesip on the thais

[lil fluffy clouds]

I am going to predict that the defence lawyers will advise the B2 to plead guilty to the charges to avoid a certain death penalty if they choose to plead not -guilty. The prosecutor will make it quite clear that the outcome is pre-determined - it has to be, because it can be the only satisfactory outcome from Thailand's POV in that the case is concluded with the B2 admitting guilt.

A 900 page report including witness statements, DNA evidence, and items stolen from one victim, will persuade the judge that the charges are beyond reasonable doubt.

The alternative would be to appeal the pre-determined guilty sentences right up to the Supreme court and pray...

I am afraid you are right.......they will be found guilty, they have no choice. Anything else like acquittal, throwing out the case, a not guilty verdict will be loss of face for the RTP. Nobody can change this and nobody can do anything about this.

Scary stuff!

If these boys do die, I wish it not to be for nothing.

That their deaths will mark a new era for thailand.

That the world will stop hand feeding this country.

And through abscence the people will become pro active with integrity.

Please world, if this is a sacrifice, let it be worthwhile.

[Kees5555]

Has the defence the right to check the DNA-evidence in a lab of their own choice?
1. To check if it is sperm (at least, this was found inside the female victim, right?)
2. If so, to check if it is sperm of the 1 Burmese.

[watcharacters]

Wonder how much money has changed hands to get all the ducks in a row??

Thailand may have improved its corruption-ranking, but as long as you can pay to get away with murder, the country still remains in the cave-age!!

It stinks!!

There's a facebook screen capture of one of the local KT police, he owns a restaurant on Koa Tao to, anyway he for some bizarre reason messaged CSI some time back "think not how many baht this has cost, think in millions"

.

Would you please post an image of that Facebook screen snapshot rather than just referring to one? Thanks.