Russian historians left baffled by Putin's Crimean claims

[konying]

Correct me if I am wrong, I suppose he has a very strong grip on power, media, business and the army. So the average Russian is seeing a hero, we are not. All he seems to be doing is making himself very rich, the palace he has built, and sees himself as the new Tsar.

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

He's seen as a hero by the population due to the tightly controlled media. Both sides of the story are not being reported in the media. Like what you mention about the select few becoming mega rich. There is no freedom of the press in Russia. Nor an independent judiciary.

And your source of this assertion is???? American media or personal experience of living in Russia?

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

Russia: #148 out of 180 countries.

Reporters Without Borders is based in France. Good enough for you?

No, not really but do not let that stop you from making silly assertions

[lovetotravel]

He's seen as a hero by the population due to the tightly controlled media. Both sides of the story are not being reported in the media. Like what you mention about the select few becoming mega rich. There is no freedom of the press in Russia. Nor an independent judiciary.

And your source of this assertion is???? American media or personal experience of living in Russia?

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

Russia: #148 out of 180 countries.

Reporters Without Borders is based in France. Good enough for you?

No, not really but do not let that stop you from making silly assertions

Only silly if you don't like the facts presented. This is a respected institution to most, but obviously not to all.

[neverdie]

No, not really but do not let that stop you from making silly assertions

Silly assertions?

Maybe you can explain why you think his statement was a silly assertion?

[Ulic]

The Charge of the Lite Brigade, etc.. etc, I have always considered the Crimea Russian. The bear got poked and poked

by the EU and the US courting the Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. Did anyone really think Russia would put up with

that. An incredibly corrupt but democratically elected government forced out with violent demonstration not at the ballot box.

A totally predictable reaction by Putin and Russia. AS far as I am concerned take your lumps negotiate new boundaries

of Ukraine including other loss of other areas with predominantly Russian ethnic background who favour joining Russia and

move on. Not a popular position by Westerners but that is the best way to normalize relations and return to peace. Otherwise

I think it could be decades of civil war and strife with thousands of civilians killed. Of course Putin is a megalomaniac and

the most corrupt leader in the world, but was known and that is why he should not have been poked into action.

[Scott]

PLEASE STAY ON THE TOPIC.

RE-READ THE OP IF YOU ARE CONFUSED.

[konying]

No, not really but do not let that stop you from making silly assertions

Silly assertions?

Maybe you can explain why you think his statement was a silly assertion?

You can not figure it out for yourself ?

[konying]

@ lovetotravel

Or if you fail to read the source and how data is collected.

After all the respected source has Congo Bangladesh or Ukraine with high marks, along with a few other questionable countries.

But carry on regardless, it is entertaining

Edited December 6, 2014 by konying

[cheshiremusicman]

Putin may be many things, but retarded is not one of them. Like him or not, he is brilliant, shrewd, and ruthless; he also has considerable KGB experience. I think many have noted Putin runs circles around the American leader; how unfortunate for America. Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!

Well, it might be their 'Moment', but the Russian currency has dropped by over 40%% against all the other major currencies in the past 6 or so months; so well done President Putin, your doing a fine job for Russia !!!!

If they keep this up, they will be lucky to survive and let's see what the people of Russia think about their great leader then. A megalomaniac for sure and a very dangerous one !

[lovetotravel]

The Charge of the Lite Brigade, etc.. etc, I have always considered the Crimea Russian. The bear got poked and poked

by the EU and the US courting the Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. Did anyone really think Russia would put up with

that. An incredibly corrupt but democratically elected government forced out with violent demonstration not at the ballot box.

A totally predictable reaction by Putin and Russia. AS far as I am concerned take your lumps negotiate new boundaries

of Ukraine including other loss of other areas with predominantly Russian ethnic background who favour joining Russia and

move on. Not a popular position by Westerners but that is the best way to normalize relations and return to peace. Otherwise

I think it could be decades of civil war and strife with thousands of civilians killed. Of course Putin is a megalomaniac and

the most corrupt leader in the world, but was known and that is why he should not have been poked into action.

The problem is, this is not the first time Russia has interfered in another country's politics with military force. It's one thing to interfere politically, entirely different when done at the end of a gun. And these are sovereign countries. Just because they are ethnically Russian, doesn't mean they have any right to invade and take over. That needs to be done at the ballot box, like Scotland.

[car720]

The Charge of the Lite Brigade, etc.. etc, I have always considered the Crimea Russian. The bear got poked and poked

by the EU and the US courting the Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. Did anyone really think Russia would put up with

that. An incredibly corrupt but democratically elected government forced out with violent demonstration not at the ballot box.

A totally predictable reaction by Putin and Russia. AS far as I am concerned take your lumps negotiate new boundaries

of Ukraine including other loss of other areas with predominantly Russian ethnic background who favour joining Russia and

move on. Not a popular position by Westerners but that is the best way to normalize relations and return to peace. Otherwise

I think it could be decades of civil war and strife with thousands of civilians killed. Of course Putin is a megalomaniac and

the most corrupt leader in the world, but was known and that is why he should not have been poked into action.

There is an upside to this I believe. The same society that is capable of producing Putin is also capable of producing Gorbachov (spelling).

I seem to recall that just before Gorby was when Sting penned his song, hoping that the Russians loved their children too.

It was not long after that (memory not sure) when the wall came down, wasn't it?

[ATF]

Does this sound familiar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

Any Russian with any money or sense has left Russia. Putin is attempting to become a revisionist and brainwash the ignorant masses.

He obviously has mental issues. As Neverdie said who could condone the killing of thousands in Ukraine and Chechnya as well as political enemies without being mentally unstable.

His metal retardation arises from his failure to understand simple economics and lead Russia into a prosperous rather than bloody future.

[Benmart]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

When I see the use of "you" and "your", in response to a post, it usually attacks the poster and not the contents of the post.

Terms such as " captain, lord and master, barstool, religious sect" and the others, are of little use to debunk the position of the poster and ultimately weakens the rebuttal.

The reference by the poster to Mr. Putin, as a retard, is also of little use and discredits anything that follows IMO.

There are more effective methods to present an opposing view without the use of these ineffective statements. I find it takes time and thought to put them into a viable and useful format.

[neverdie]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

When I see the use of "you" and "your", in response to a post, it usually attacks the poster and not the contents of the post.

Terms such as " captain, lord and master, barstool, religious sect" and the others, are of little use to debunk the position of the poster and ultimately weakens the rebuttal.

The reference by the poster to Mr. Putin, as a retard, is also of little use and discredits anything that follows IMO.

There are more effective methods to present an opposing view without the use of these ineffective statements. I find it takes time and thought to put them into a viable and useful format.

Correct "you" are sir. I was being lazy. I kind of thought it was clear to all what sort of person Putin is. Clearly I was wrong.

History won't be kind to this creep. I would of liked words to get heated between him and Tony Abbott in Brisvegas the other week. Tony isn't a bad glove man, he's fit and has a really short wick....in the other hand, Putin has seen his best years both physically and mentally IMO.

Anyway, as usual it will be the common working class man (woman) that will suffer under his rule.

[Globeman]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

I must believe that you are neverdie's really close friend because if you are not then it seems to me that there is another dangerous meglomaniac amongst us.

All he did was to make a rhetorical albeit off the cuff comment in a forum which is renown for it and you have seen fit to come down on him like some sort of God.

Answer me this for my understanding. Why have you attacked this man in this manner?

Of course I am "technically" incorrect about Putin being a 'retard' but at least you had the ability to recognise my comment in the fashion it was intended.

Don't worry about Globeman, he's just exposed himself for what he is. Globeman wouldn't have a clue who I am or what I've done so I actually take no offence & I can give and take a little friendly banter....this forum would be rather dull IMO without it.

Globeman certainly isn't my friend....he's just a little guy pumping his chest out on an Internet forum......you and I both know he wouldn't say such a thing in person.

Anyway, it's good to see Putin has a couple of supporters out there, obviously globemans never witnessed real death and destruction, the sort of stuff someone like Putin has already demonstrated he is well and truely capable of.

Nice day to you MrCar....seasons greetings and all the best.

I'm sorry... at what point did I say I supported Putin? Acknowledging that someone is actually intelligent and not "retarded" does not constitute approval of their actions.

And if you knew me (which you seem to believe you do, despite making the point that I couldn't possibly know anything about you), you'd know that I'd happily say the same thing to your face. And, by the way, I've been called many things in my life, but never "little".

But it seems that according to your view, it is alright for you to make wild speculations about someone's physical size, personal courage, political affiliations and masturbatory habits, but how dare anyone cast any speculatory aspersions on your dignified self...

One thing I do know about you now - you are a very very funny man.

[neverdie]

I'm sorry... at what point did I say I supported Putin? Acknowledging that someone is actually intelligent and not "retarded" does not constitute approval of their actions.

And if you knew me (which you seem to believe you do, despite making the point that I couldn't possibly know anything about you), you'd know that I'd happily say the same thing to your face. And, by the way, I've been called many things in my life, but never "little".

But it seems that according to your view, it is alright for you to make wild speculations about someone's physical size, personal courage, political affiliations and masturbatory habits, but how dare anyone cast any speculatory aspersions on your dignified self...

One thing I do know about you now - you are a very very funny man.

Howdee globster,

Nice to see you again old mate.

You're "Sorry". Good, I've been waiting for your apology.

I thought you set the 'rules' from your first quote of me, you know with the bar stool and all that stuff, so I just followed your lead.

Anyway, all in good fun. Right you are...... Little fella.

I mostly agree with what you've said anyway....and you know what, everyone's entitled to an opinion in any such case.

I've already acknowledged (twice) that I was wrong and lazy with my terminology....perhaps you want me to carve it our in jugular blood ?

Edited December 6, 2014 by neverdie

[Scott]

The word retarded is quite commonly used to refer to someone who is actually not using the brains and deductive powers that they have. I doubt that anybody thinks that someone rise to the level of power that this man has if he were in fact mentally retarded.

Now, back to the topic.

[neverdie]

The word retarded is quite commonly used to refer to someone who is actually not using the brains and deductive powers that they have. I doubt that anybody thinks that someone rise to the level of power that this man has if he were in fact mentally retarded.

Now, back to the topic.

I was going to comment several times....that apparently the 'Historians' agree with me....is that close enough to being back on topic.

Clearly he's not 'retarded' retarded, but there's something strange going on up in that cranium of his.....THATS FOR SURE !

ANyway, don't historians get to comment in the future....why are they piping up now. We haven't even seen Vladimirs wildest moves yet.

I reakon he will eventually come out of the closet, admitting his homosexual tendencies as well as the fact he's an avid user of the TGAU. I can see the evidence written all over his face.

[fvw53]

neverdie, you are a most uninformed , doult, putin is one of the worlds great leaders at this time

...as was Hitler ? Stalin ? Mao ?

[Vadmoscow79]

Has anyone ever heard such a thing as law and justice? 1954 February 19 with violation of the Constitution , Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian Republic . Referring to Article 18 in effect on the 1954 Constitution of the USSR.

March 22 held a referendum in which the majority of residents to join the Russia.

Why in the Crimea, where people voluntarily made their choice - it is not legal and in force from Kosovo from Serbia are connected - is it legal?

double standards or ordinary fascism?!!!

P/S

[fvw53]

Has anyone ever heard such a thing as law and justice? 1954 February 19 with violation of the Constitution , Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian Republic . Referring to Article 18 in effect on the 1954 Constitution of the USSR.

March 22 held a referendum in which the majority of residents to join the Russia.

Why in the Crimea, where people voluntarily made their choice - it is not legal and in force from Kosovo from Serbia are connected - is it legal?

double standards or ordinary fascism?!!!

P/S

If the people of Crimea made a "voluntary choice" to join Ukraine, then why had the "the liberation" to be done by soldiers disguised as bank robbers with ski masks?

This election makes me think of the free and fair elections held in the countries of East European liberated by the Soviet Army and where ...surprise...surprise...in each country the communist party won...

Speaking about fascism :

a) The Duma voted to approve the annexation of Crimea 445 to 1 .

This would make Kim Jong Un jealous...

The only 1 (one) no vote came from Ilya Ponomarev and later on bailiffs have frozen his bank accounts and it was announced that they will not allow him to leave Russia anymore.

Nobody can dispute that Russia had and has strategic interests in Crimea : I know a lot about the history of Russia but now I learn from you that already the ruling Communists of the USSR committed a crime by attaching Crimea to Ukraine...

b)the language used by Putin saying he has the right to "protect" Russian speakers all over Europe remind us of Hitler's megalomania to protect (and annex) all German speakers..

Last week he compared in a speech the "holiness" of Crimea to the Temple Mount of Jerusalem : the demagogic tone is still rising

http://www.theage.com.au/world/russian-historians-left-baffled-by-putins-crimean-claims-20141205-120pea.html

c) my friends in Russia have asked me not to send any more emails on the subject of Ukraine because they are scared that terror is coming back.

d) now the last independent Russian TV station "Dozhd" is under attack : critical news should be countered with open discussions but a totalitarian state will oppose this ...this is true fascism.

In 1990 I had the hoped that the Russian people would join the other European free nations and not return to the old habits from the Czarist and Communist rule.

I am disappointed....and it is very sad that there is no more free press in Russia.

Yes true democracy is a mess... but for the majority of the people it is better than every other system which has been tried.

[Vadmoscow79]

If the people of Crimea made a "voluntary choice" to join Ukraine, then why had the "the liberation" to be done by soldiers disguised as bank robbers with ski masks?

This election makes me think of the free and fair elections held in the countries of East European liberated by the Soviet Army and where ...surprise...surprise...in each country the communist party won...

Speaking about fascism :

a) The Duma voted to approve the annexation of Crimea 445 to 1 .

This would make Kim Jong Un jealous...

The only 1 (one) no vote came from Ilya Ponomarev and later on bailiffs have frozen his bank accounts and it was announced that they will not allow him to leave Russia anymore.

Nobody can dispute that Russia had and has strategic interests in Crimea : I know a lot about the history of Russia but now I learn from you that already the ruling Communists of the USSR committed a crime by attaching Crimea to Ukraine...

b)the language used by Putin saying he has the right to "protect" Russian speakers all over Europe remind us of Hitler's megalomania to protect (and annex) all German speakers..

Last week he compared in a speech the "holiness" of Crimea to the Temple Mount of Jerusalem : the demagogic tone is still rising

http://www.theage.com.au/world/russian-historians-left-baffled-by-putins-crimean-claims-20141205-120pea.html

c) my friends in Russia have asked me not to send any more emails on the subject of Ukraine because they are scared that terror is coming back.

d) now the last independent Russian TV station "Dozhd" is under attack : critical news should be countered with open discussions but a totalitarian state will oppose this ...this is true fascism.

In 1990 I had the hoped that the Russian people would join the other European free nations and not return to the old habits from the Czarist and Communist rule.

I am disappointed....and it is very sad that there is no more free press in Russia.

Yes true democracy is a mess... but for the majority of the people it is better than every other system which has been tried.

I am Russian. if you're interested I can honestly answer any of your questions about Russian .I often watch American and European news channels they say a lot of lies.

[sustento]

Er, they do still have the nukes though so best to take some notice

I've often wondered how Russia would fare in a nuclear war. I couldn't envisage them lasting long [48-hours at most before they're silenced, I reckon]. Most of their warheads are probably knackered and half their missiles wouldn't make it off the launchpad anyway. Their only hope would be China on side.

Their technology is way behind that of the West.

SU35? SU37? Sukhoi PAK FA?

What people seem to forget is that the Russians feel that they've survived WWII and Stalin so a drop in oil prices and an economy off the boil is a piece of piss as far as they're concerned...

Edited December 6, 2014 by sustento

[Vadmoscow79]

No one comes up with the idea,that in the event of nuclear war Russia simply explode up all nuclear warheads in Siberia.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Vadmoscow79

[Vadmoscow79]

No one comes up with the idea,that in the event of nuclear war Russia simply explode up all nuclear warheads in Siberia. there is no sense to send planes and submarines to bomb US .They not reach

you underestimate Russia))) we have thousands of years of history and we are always at war)))

[NeverSure]

Putin may be many things, but retarded is not one of them. Like him or not, he is brilliant, shrewd, and ruthless; he also has considerable KGB experience. I think many have noted Putin runs circles around the American leader; how unfortunate for America. Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!

"Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!"

Now is Russia's moment to crash. It needs $100 a barrel oil to support its people and it is a communist country responsible to support its people. Oil has dropped to $66 from $107 just since late June. America is bringing Russia to its knees without firing a shot. Putin is going to wish he'd never heard the words Crimea or Ukraine or flight 17.

Russia's currency value has tanked, making anything imported very expensive in Russia.

Russia is hanging on by its fingernails.

[konying]

Putin may be many things, but retarded is not one of them. Like him or not, he is brilliant, shrewd, and ruthless; he also has considerable KGB experience. I think many have noted Putin runs circles around the American leader; how unfortunate for America. Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!

"Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!"

Now is Russia's moment to crash. It needs $100 a barrel oil to support its people and it is a communist country responsible to support its people. Oil has dropped to $66 from $107 just since late June. America is bringing Russia to its knees without firing a shot. Putin is going to wish he'd never heard the words Crimea or Ukraine or flight 17.

Russia's currency value has tanked, making anything imported very expensive in Russia.

Russia is hanging on by its fingernails.

Why do you insist on posting rubbish?

[Bwanatickey]

Putin, the type of leader We dream about having in the U.K.

One who stands up to the EU.

[Somtamnication]

"It is widely accepted that Vladimir the Great was baptised in Kherson, Crimea, an event in 988 that is considered to be the beginning of the Christianisation of Kievan Rus, a precursor state to Russia and Ukraine. Yet there are doubts concerning the event's relevancy to current events."

Don't know what the fuss is all about. Vladimir the Idiot is only staking an ancestral claim!

[Asiantravel]

Putin may be many things, but retarded is not one of them. Like him or not, he is brilliant, shrewd, and ruthless; he also has considerable KGB experience. I think many have noted Putin runs circles around the American leader; how unfortunate for America. Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!

"Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!"

Now is Russia's moment to crash. It needs $100 a barrel oil to support its people and it is a communist country responsible to support its people. Oil has dropped to $66 from $107 just since late June. America is bringing Russia to its knees without firing a shot. Putin is going to wish he'd never heard the words Crimea or Ukraine or flight 17.

Russia's currency value has tanked, making anything imported very expensive in Russia.

Russia is hanging on by its fingernails.

America underestimated the resilience and capabilities of a small country like Vietnam. (And hasn't got a particularly good track record with any conflict has been involved with since)

What ever makes you think America can outmanoeuvre Russia and China (now officially the number one economy in the world) working together?

[Morch]

Er, they do still have the nukes though so best to take some notice

I've often wondered how Russia would fare in a nuclear war. I couldn't envisage them lasting long [48-hours at most before they're silenced, I reckon]. Most of their warheads are probably knackered and half their missiles wouldn't make it off the launchpad anyway. Their only hope would be China on side.

Their technology is way behind that of the West.

SU35? SU37? Sukhoi PAK FA?

What people seem to forget is that the Russians feel that they've survived WWII and Stalin so a drop in oil prices and an economy off the boil is a piece of piss as far as they're concerned...

Does this statement reflect the overall sentiment of the Russian public, the Russian leadership's stance or perhaps just an

unfounded generalization regarding how outsiders view Russia and the Russian people?