Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[JOC]

Interesting statement, very carefully worded in fact but I dont see it reads in the way the OP is trying to portray and selecting specific lines out of context

The people here on the forum are in general not police officers and did not have all the evidence the police had. This is something I have been saying all the time.

Really ? I thought they were all ex-Scotland Yard !!

Seriously the instant dismissal of all Thai police investigations had nothing to do with the case and everything to do with the anti-thai sentiment which dominates this website. All the 'FACTS' quoted on here are 100% not facts. No-one from this board was there, no-one from this board has any evidence, but 99% of people on this board have either an axe to grind or over-excitable imagination! Its embarrassing at times.

Hopefully not too many people will have contributed to the defence case scam recently launched on here ! (Which will presumably be fully audited as it is spent ?)

So the posters here, who are hoping for a better and cleaner future Thailand, by questioning "authorities" strange actions, suddenly become "anti-Thai"??

Unlike the Thaivisa prosecutors, we at least try to keep an open mind!!

[JOC]

No, you simply have to wait for the trial.

Just like you have done??

With your hundreds of posts defending the RTP!!

Looking forward to the RTP "case" come tumbling down like a house of cards!!

I have been waiting for a trial and not pushing conspiracy theories.

To just wait for the trial without posting is of course not an option?? (respect for the family, you know)

You have been baiting us "conspiracy theorists" for months now. Admit it, we are your bread and butter!!

As much as I disagree with you many times, I have to admire your stamina!!

[Smurkster]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Is this normal procedure to provide information to families of victims before a trial so that they could almost condemn the accused before proven guilty or otherwise?

in Thailand apparently...I'm embarrassed for this country and everyday I wake up and thank God I wasn't born Thai!

[jdinasia]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

[thailandchilli]

Interesting statement, very carefully worded in fact but I dont see it reads in the way the OP is trying to portray and selecting specific lines out of context

The people here on the forum are in general not police officers and did not have all the evidence the police had. This is something I have been saying all the time.

Really ? I thought they were all ex-Scotland Yard !!

Seriously the instant dismissal of all Thai police investigations had nothing to do with the case and everything to do with the anti-thai sentiment which dominates this website. All the 'FACTS' quoted on here are 100% not facts. No-one from this board was there, no-one from this board has any evidence, but 99% of people on this board have either an axe to grind or over-excitable imagination! Its embarrassing at times.

Hopefully not too many people will have contributed to the defence case scam recently launched on here ! (Which will presumably be fully audited as it is spent ?)

So you stated that all "the FACTS quoted on here are 100% non facts." I can presume your fact on the 'defense case scam' is one of those 100% non facts

Full details all fundraiser spending will be published in due course at/fund activities update already available at (link deliberately left out). Tweet from Andy Hall, 30th Nov

The other content you've added is also complete rubbish

Edited December 6, 2014 by thailandchilli

[jdinasia]

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Is this normal procedure to provide information to families of victims before a trial so that they could almost condemn the accused before proven guilty or otherwise?

in Thailand apparently...I'm embarrassed for this country and everyday I wake up and thank God I wasn't born Thai!

The information was not given in Thailand ; nor did the families condemn the 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers.

[DarloKnight]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

[phusingpete]

What a bunch of hypocrites many posters are here!!

Yesterday the RTP, JD and JTJ were the enemy and ridiculed by most here!!

And then today, after a loosely worded statement from a couple of laypeople, almost everyone turn on a dime!!

The RTP becomes competent policeforce, JD and JTJ gloating in post after post, supported by their new friends!!

No my friends, this case stinks and has done so from day one!! IMO it is still a cover up for someone, who paid big money.

Only evidence presented and publicized at the trial will make me change my mind!! Until then I will believe that the B2 are indeed scapegoats.

This has got nothing to do with lack of respect for the victims parents, they have my deepest sympathy. But just like me I believe, they want to see the real culprits convicted!!

When are you going to stop spreading and suggesting untruths?

Who even hinted or said anything remotely close to you making such as statement as "The RTP becomes competent policeforce, JD and JTJ gloating in post after post, supported by their new friends!!"

You have stated the masses were behind you for believing completely unfounded conspiracy theories just as your treating those of us as "enemies" for trying to point out actual facts. So now you are unhappy that most people are coming back to reality after getting a glimpse of what they asked for?

I have no idea what "most people" think.

I do know that those posters who thought that the RTP did indeed have the killers in custody have been shouted down and called names, and have been accused of being paid to post.

Average posters don't want to deal with that and have posted once or twice then left the discussion after the abuse piled on them.

I have found that many of the conspiracy theorists have nothing good to say about Thais or Thailand and I think they have an axe to grind.

I have been reading these threads for some months and would like to propose a slightly more calm approach to this tradgedy. I have no idea if these two did the evil deed, but I understand completely why there is so much sceptism. I would ask John T John and JDinasia if they have complete faith in the 7 local RTP to carry out a thorough foresic investigation into a murder scene, particularly when all a sundry are allowed to wander through the area virtually deficating NDA throughout the crime scene. These local RTP have been on the Island for some time and no doubt enjoyed the tea money available from many sources, the crime scene to them, innitially, seemed business as usual, then the shit hit the fan and all hell broke loose and PANIC.

I as I am sure many of us have had to pay the RTP money for absoloutly nothing, corruption is rife, so conspiracy theries should be expected and I do not think it fair that such theories should be denigrated. By the way I love my life in Thailand, and I love the local Thai's and I should like to point out that they suffer more than us expats from RTP extortIon.

Furthermore regarding the respect due to the victims family, I understand the loud calls for this, however there are two more families to consider, those of the now living suspects. If it had not been for the speculation and questioning of the social networks and the international press where would they be now. The victims family stated that they wished to see a fair open trial, the only way to secure this is through pressure from the social networks and international media. Carry on regardless.

[jdinasia]

What a bunch of hypocrites many posters are here!!

Yesterday the RTP, JD and JTJ were the enemy and ridiculed by most here!!

And then today, after a loosely worded statement from a couple of laypeople, almost everyone turn on a dime!!

The RTP becomes competent policeforce, JD and JTJ gloating in post after post, supported by their new friends!!

No my friends, this case stinks and has done so from day one!! IMO it is still a cover up for someone, who paid big money.

Only evidence presented and publicized at the trial will make me change my mind!! Until then I will believe that the B2 are indeed scapegoats.

This has got nothing to do with lack of respect for the victims parents, they have my deepest sympathy. But just like me I believe, they want to see the real culprits convicted!!

When are you going to stop spreading and suggesting untruths?

Who even hinted or said anything remotely close to you making such as statement as "The RTP becomes competent policeforce, JD and JTJ gloating in post after post, supported by their new friends!!"

You have stated the masses were behind you for believing completely unfounded conspiracy theories just as your treating those of us as "enemies" for trying to point out actual facts. So now you are unhappy that most people are coming back to reality after getting a glimpse of what they asked for?

I have no idea what "most people" think.

I do know that those posters who thought that the RTP did indeed have the killers in custody have been shouted down and called names, and have been accused of being paid to post.

Average posters don't want to deal with that and have posted once or twice then left the discussion after the abuse piled on them.

I have found that many of the conspiracy theorists have nothing good to say about Thais or Thailand and I think they have an axe to grind.

I have been reading these threads for some months and would like to propose a slightly more calm approach to this tradgedy. I have no idea if these two did the evil deed, but I understand completely why there is so much sceptism. I would ask John T John and JDinasia if they have complete faith in the 7 local RTP to carry out a thorough foresic investigation into a murder scene, particularly when all a sundry are allowed to wander through the area virtually deficating NDA throughout the crime scene. These local RTP have been on the Island for some time and no doubt enjoyed the tea money available from many sources, the crime scene to them, innitially, seemed business as usual, then the shit hit the fan and all hell broke loose and PANIC.

I as I am sure many of us have had to pay the RTP money for absoloutly nothing, corruption is rife, so conspiracy theries should be expected and I do not think it fair that such theories should be denigrated. By the way I love my life in Thailand, and I love the local Thai's and I should like to point out that they suffer more than us expats from RTP extortIon.

Furthermore regarding the respect due to the victims family, I understand the loud calls for this, however there are two more families to consider, those of the now living suspects. If it had not been for the speculation and questioning of the social networks and the international press where would they be now. The victims family stated that they wished to see a fair open trial, the only way to secure this is through pressure from the social networks and international media. Carry on regardless.

Again you are ignoring the requests of the families.

[jdinasia]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

I suggest that you may be wrong.

[MJP]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

I suggest that you may be wrong.

Definitely not wrong, the family have made a statement regarding social media.

[DarloKnight]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

I suggest that you may be wrong.

Well you certainly like the last word I will give you that!

You get your fishing rod out and keeping reeling everyone in!

[ttthailand]

A few thoughts;

1. Perhaps the Burmese guys did do it, possible, sure.

2. Perhaps the media was looking so hard to make a story that they gave wrong and misleading info which lead many people to think others did it..... We have seen the media get it wrong before. Also, translation Thai to English can get twisted.

3. The ongoing distrust in the RTP and the history of rich people getting away with murder has convinced most people that this case is the same.

4. Perhaps the Thai police put on a good show and pulled the wool over the eyes of the UK police. Police normally have a habit of giving other police the benefit of doubt. The Burmese are innocent but the UK police are buying the story of guilt.

Perhaps some of our questions and concerns regarding this case will become more clear as information is revealed, lets hope !

Edited December 6, 2014 by ttthailand

[JOC]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

I suggest that you may be wrong.

Definitely not wrong, the family have made a statement regarding social media.

Interesting comment from a moderator on a forum which has allowed more than 400 posts on the topic, despite the families wishes!!

(not a comment on moderation, just a small reflection)

[MJP]

^^I'm not going to remove them all, just a hint to everyone. Darlo is right about the families wishes.

So perhaps you should all wait for the trial and inquest.

[northernjohn]

There is a lot of cognitive dissonance evident in the posts of this thread. Those who believe (like myself) that the RTP is framing the Burmese kids find it very difficult to accept that the families are satisfied ,so far, with the work of the RTP. However, the endorsement (of the FO drafted statement) by the families states that quite clearly. On the other side, those who were previously convinced of the B2's guilt are presenting the statement as irrefutable endorsement of their views and clear proof that the B2 are guilty. The statement neither states, nor even implies, any such thing, though it certainly does suggest there is quite enough evidence (given trust of the RTP) for an indictment.

Good to see that so many people are still putting all their beliefs on reports from News Papers who only print what will sell. Makes no difference if it is right or wrong they have your baht and that is what they were looking for. They knew you would not buy their paper if it said 100% proof against the 2 Burmese.

Even in the United States where they also have limits on what they may print the police do not put all their evidence on the front page. But here in Thailand we get the people who believe that all the evidence should be front page material and is entirely true.

I will wait for the trial and in the mean time I tend to put more credence to the parents than I do the Nation and other news sources. You may rest assured the trial will be made such a public spectacle that corruption will not be there. It is my hope that justice is done.

[Mooner]

I presume we will be privy to the evidence against the B2.

I'm happy to be proved wrong. In the end all we all want is the killers to be dealt with.

Hoping it will be as solid as the prosecution claim.

[catsanddogs]

As someone who genuinely thinks there are serious issues with this 'case', i cant help but read this parent intervention as a genuine and sincere expression of their belief that the two young guys going to trial have a very strong case to answer. They have been briefed by the foreign office. They know more than anyone on this board does. It's fair then to assume that they are more capable of reaching an impartial decision on the merits of the case.

That of course being said, the prosecution have several issues they need to convince the public of.

The first and primary one is of course how 2 little dudes like that could suppress not only one guy very much bigger than them, but also restrain and prevent Hannah from raising an alarm. This is a serious issue that simply has yet to be answered. And it is a very big problem with the official story.

The second one pertains to the murder weapon itself and the infamous reconstruction. How on earth could they have forgotten the weapon they used on David? The police initially stated that the hoe was NOT the weapon used on David. They claimed it was a rock. The reconstruction showed the boys using the hoe with the strong guidance of the police. Was this simply over zealous policing? Were the boys in fact too drunk as they claimed (and was used to provide a strong motive against them?)

If they were drunk, then again, the story they managed to hold down and subdue both Hannah and David sounds incredible. How is this possible? Are we missing people?

Third, David's iphone was reported by the Bangkok post as being found in his luggage. It turned up much later in bushes. Was this a mistake? How did they know he was carrying an iphone 4 (they stated the make and model)?

Fourth, the taxi driver claim is incredibly serious. The police looked to fabricate evidence through witness testimony. This requires an investigation and should be used to attack any witness claims.

Fifth. The two men took a DNA test in the first week of the investigation when the police rounded up and tested all the Burmese workers. Two weeks later they took a second DNA test in custody and were found very quickly to be guilty. Were the initial results simply not revealed for fear of causing the two Burmese to flee? Either way, it requires a great deal of explanation.

Six: Burmese laborers report incidents of coercion in the initial investigation. Were these fabrications? Should it be shown that they were not (under cross examination), would it not reinforce the claims by the two defendants that their confession was also derived through coercion? Again, to be proven in court, but a serious issue fr the RTP should several witnesses corroborate one another.

Seven: Why did the prosecution struggle so hard to bring the case to trial?

Eight: The rest of the claims... who is the runner?, was the crime scene corrupted?, why was Hannah so savagely attacked? How could one of the defendants have been wearing the same t-shirt without any trace of Hannah's blood on it despite the ferocity and primal nature of the attack? What about that condom? Since it had traces of Hannahs DNA on the outside, who used it? Why have no prints been found on the murder weapon? Why has no one claimed to have found DNA from David on the hoe? Who handled the DNA material and has it been independently verified?

The sensible thing then is to keep some of these questions in mind in the ensuing case. So long as it is open and transparent then justice should be seen to be done.

Umm in response to this

"That of course being said, the prosecution have several issues they need to convince the public of.

"

No.

The prosecution only needs to convince the judges.

True. But the importance of convincing the public cannot be underestimated, especially in light of the corruption that has come to light in recent weeks in Thailand.

[boomerangutang]

A few thoughts;

1. Perhaps the Burmese guys did do it, possible, sure.

2. Perhaps the media was looking so hard to make a story that they gave wrong and misleading info which lead many people to think others did it..... We have seen the media get it wrong before. Also, translation Thai to English can get twisted.

3. The ongoing distrust in the RTP and the history of rich people getting away with murder has convinced most people that this case is the same.

4. Perhaps the Thai police put on a good show and pulled the wool over the eyes of the UK police. Police normally have a habit of giving other police the benefit of doubt. The Burmese are innocent but the UK police are buying the story of guilt.

Perhaps some of our questions and concerns regarding this case will become more clear as information is revealed, lets hope !

I'll pick #4. Also in the mix: even before the Brit experts showed up at KT, it was known that this is a big case with ramifications rife through Thai officialdom, all the way up to the Thai PM. The Brits, who were hamstrung from the get-go by being limited to observer-only status, may have decided that: if they can't really do what they're trained to do (crime investigation), then they might as well accept what the RTP dish out. To do a proper investigation of this case would entail looking closely at 100's of things (only some of which have been looked into by RTP). Since the Brits couldn't even get to 1st base with any of their own investigations, and they don't speak Thai, and they see how inexorably entwined the case is in social imperatives and probable money payments - they took the easy way out: simply believe what their fellow professionals (from Thailand) adamantly claim as truth, including the DNA claims.

Remember, Thai officials won't even share their DNA data from Nomsod with the Brits (by their own announcement). What else will Thai officials not share (or wave away as insignificant or already investigated) with the Brits? The mind reels.

[djjamie]

^^I'm not going to remove them all, just a hint to everyone. Darlo is right about the families wishes.

So perhaps you should all wait for the trial and inquest.

Hear, hear.

Could not agree more.

[catsanddogs]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

I just don't understand your continued presence on the forum JD in light of how you feel.

I totally respect the parents wishes, but you cannot expect people who have invested emotionally in this case to shut down because the RTP have bought it on themselves through their insensitivity, incompetency and sexism.

All you have to do is keep away from the forum until the trial - it's that simple.

[annabel]

I presume we will be privy to the evidence against the B2.

I'm happy to be proved wrong. In the end all we all want is the killers to be dealt with.

Hoping it will be as solid as the prosecution claim.

We are all hoping for the same thing

As well as the families in the UK are ...

Edited December 6, 2014 by annabel

[MRDave]

The victims looked middle class hence their parents must be middle class which means they will not be streetwise and will be likely to believe anything an official tells them.

[djjamie]

The victims looked middle class hence their parents must be middle class which means they will not be streetwise and will be likely to believe anything an official tells them.

I sincerely hope the family does not read your post.

Thanks however for allowing me to edit my post.

Suspects arrested. Response on TVF. "Scapegoats"

Suspects confess. Response on TVF. "Cannot trust the Burmese"

Suspects retract confession. Response on TVF. "Cannot trust the police"

Investigation not transparent. Response on TVF. "Let the UK police investigate it and then I will believe it" and "The UK police have no agenda so are not part of this conspiracy"

UK police travel to Thailand to investigate it. Response on TVF "Now we will find out for sure that the suspects are scapegoats as I will believe the UK police"

UK police return home" Response on TVF. "I have confidence that the UK police will prove me right and "Any moment now I will look so good on this forum amongst my peers for being right all along. I really am THE MAN"

UK police prepare there report. Response on TVF "Any moment now. Any moment I can boast that I was right all along" and "I will defiantly respect what the UK police say"

Uk police brief family and family make a statement showing "THE MAN" maybe wrong. Response on TVF. "I am still right that the suspects are scapegoats and the UK police are wrong" or "The family are in on this conspiracy" or "The UK police are in on the conspiracy" or ""I don't believe the source" or "The victims are middle class so they will believe anything"

Real classy comment mate!!!

[DaveE13]

cant beleive some posters on here with their comments. now the poor family are called middle class so they not streetwise. unveleivable!

[Luang]

I knew it. See, even the victims families agreed that those muslim workers illegal foreigners from the poor countries next door are the murders.

The Rakhine (ethnic group of the Burmese kids) are almost always Buddhist. Buddhists typically (though, of course there are exceptions) have greater respect for human life than Christians or Muslims.

This is without doubt the dumbest piece of horse manure I have read in a long, long time! How do you get through life with such idiotic thoughts????!!! Please, please tell me you are no older than an impressionable teenager?

[Travelman868]

Why do AFP have to get a slag in on every news item ?

The family may have seen evidence that others have not but it still does not explain the glairing inconsistencies.

The statement from the lawyers that they had not seen the prosecution evidence but would fight as best they could would seem to indicate a not guilty plea, we have to wait till Monday for that.

The big problem with a guilty plea is that the police then never need to make public the evidence they have.

Yea, lets run the evidence past the family to see if they buy it. The family do not understand how the Thai police work

How come the defense have not seen it, a court of law is not like a TV show.

[Dogmatix]

Funny that the statements of the two families sound like they were written by the same person.

I used to write PR puffs and always enjoyed making up quotes for people that made them sound more articulate than they really were, saying what I wanted them to say.

I wonder what the families really said, if anything.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

Why do AFP have to get a slag in on every news item ?

The family may have seen evidence that others have not but it still does not explain the glairing inconsistencies.

The statement from the lawyers that they had not seen the prosecution evidence but would fight as best they could would seem to indicate a not guilty plea, we have to wait till Monday for that.

The big problem with a guilty plea is that the police then never need to make public the evidence they have.

Yea, lets run the evidence past the family to see if they buy it. The family do not understand how the Thai police work

How come the defense have not seen it, a court of law is not like a TV show.

Yes, it's interesting that foreign police and the victims' families have been shown great of very convincing detailed evidence by Thai police and yet the defence has not been shown any of this. Meanwhile the prosecutor kicked the file back to the cops three times before producing the flimsiest possible report, including the perfunctory police autopsy report.

[Scully]

I have provided my own personal view without relying upon speculation derived from social media.

I understand that some people would prefer to have had the forum for just a discussion of the multitude of conspiracy theories but that is not the way it works.

I am not surprised that some of you will not respect the families' wishes.

JD everyone who keeps commenting yourself included are not respecting the families wishes!

I suggest that you may be wrong.

You just don't get it do you. These threads would have died long ago if you hadn't kept fanning the flames, you almost singlehandedly kept Koh Tao front page news on Thai visa. OK so you did it under the guise of being the Thai authority hero but you made it ten times worse. Step away from the keyboard and respect the families.